Crackdown On 'Coyote Girls'

[Losangels]

What will they go after next, maybe getting the stray dogs off the street,leaving POOp everywhere. out the poor girls are just trying to make a living.

maybe a crackdown on monks in Pantip, or in china town buying VCD (sometime porn) or smocking in the wat compound, or eating after noon?

The Shanga does need to clean the air...

[sandy]

Agree, however it is a taboo subject to discuss

[s.pylos]

?

I believe this pictures an apsara, or celestial dancer. As such she hardly qualifies as a Coyote....

Apsara are indeed commonly found in Khmer Temples, which have nonetheless been converted into Budhist Temples after the fall of Angkhor and contrarily to what was written elsewhere, Apsara have remained a familliar decoration in Buddhist art and Khmer influence on Thai cultures is to be found everywhere from language to food. The most famous apsara seen everywhere is the Apsara squeezing water from her hair.

[sandy]

[meadish_sweetball]

Unfortunately a lot of Thais, especially young Thais, think that all that comes from west is primarly good while they actually are not even familiar with the rules in the west. They would not realize that one sitting on Jesus Christ's head would be offending while they get upset when one sits on Buddha's head.

What I try to illustrate here is that among the quantity of bull shit they get fed with through western TV and movies, they are not able to distinguish what is acceptable and what is not really to be copied and/or imported as even in the west it would be inappropriate.

I see an increasing number of female students wearing skirts getting shorter and shorter so that one would be tempted to ask whether they are on their way to school or to "work". Trying not to let this phenomen escalate appears reasonable and understandable. I think Thailand is very generously offering sexual freedom in given areas.

I find it absolutely ridiculous that half naked chickie's are needed at every spot where some brand or non-brand product is sold or where otherwise people need to be attracted. Thais should realize that they have their own culture and their own values. It is normal that these values and do's and don'ts change (they do in the west), but it's moving too fast and going too far.

As a contrast, many older Thais have a tendency to blame everything negative that happens in their culture on the West, which is an equally incorrect reaction as blind acceptance.

Movies in Western countries are chiefly for entertainment and sometimes for artistic purposes, not to teach people what is acceptable or not. The whole debate on cultural values in the West is a constant discussion, and if a movie presents a moral problem, it will typically do so from several viewpoints.

Perhaps this is where communication fails.

[Scott]

I think it was some mullah in Australia that said it; something about ".....uncovered meat."

[hansnl]

I presume, Sir, that you are not a Thai national, and that you are a guest in the Kingdom?

Maybe you are completely right in everything you say, or maybe not, or maybe halfway.

However, since you are a guest, you might behave as a guest?

If the Thai Government and/or the Thai people take a decision, however strange or misguided in your eyes, you have a choice:

1 Accept it and shut up

2 Do not accept it, and leave

3 Try to change things in a more subdued way.

However, as things go, I can supply a few stupid things about any country, even my own country, Holland, things that need to be changed, or not, that should be the decision from the Dutch!

But, whatever you think about it, it is the decision of a country/government/people, and as a foreigner you accept that, or stay away, or try to change things from within on the off chance that this might not be acceptable to the local authorities.

Like you, probably, I am a guest in Thailand, and try to behave like a guest.

Not much has changed in Thailand..

Still the same old half-arsed way of dealing with things.

I agree with HM the Queen's remarks and actions should be taken.

Everytime however something makes the headlines, the powers that be in Thailand (whichever government that is in place) jump on the bandwagon to get a resolution out first without thinking things through.

So after the 'you are an adult at 18' but you cannot drink alcohol

now we are going to have the

'you are an adult at 18' but you cannot do promotional work anymore.

Why don't we just get over with all of the crap and raise the legal age to 20?

That will clearly say to the young people.. you are not mature enough yet at 18 to drink or dance ... so you are also not mature to make a political decision and vote for us or vote us off.

Will someone please start a crackdown on stupid laws!! As long as these ambiguous rules are still maintained Thailand will never progress.

Start education people. Stop repressing them.

Trust the people to behave and you will instill responsibility.

Treat the people as little kids and you will instill vice.

[sting01]

I presume, Sir, that you are not a Thai national, and that you are a guest in the Kingdom?

Maybe you are completely right in everything you say, or maybe not, or maybe halfway.

However, since you are a guest, you might behave as a guest?

HOw are the windmills? And the Tulips? ah, the tulips, I miss tulips, once I got a black one in my garden ... but that is OT.

Well, I am not a guest, a guest do not pay, and sorry, but mostly expatriate have to pay (at least the rent, as we do in our countries).

So, the word GUEST is inapropriate, as is the insinuation the coyote girls are coyote girls because falangs are perverts by nature (and as also the insinuation thai people are not able to handle their own problems by other way than to say falangs are guilty) ...

Fact is laws are laws and apply to everyone. If thailand decide temples should be palce where moral is important, I will and most of the expats will do agree and never ever send coyote girls to temple. The question is : do the expats or the westerners are guiilty to have create topless dancers in Thai temple? I do not know about Holland, but there is no catholic churchs in the world that would accept / tolerate that; because doing so is simply against catholic culture (to keep the discussion in the religious mode) , or no church (whatever the religion is) will invite coyote girls for a ceremony because it would be opposite to the french idea of what is a religion.

assuming my dear you are a parpaillot (a protestant if you prefer), I think you will have hard time to find any writting from Luther or Calvin saying half naked underaged female students dancing in an Holly palce is a good thing ... May I remenber some protestant pastors(priest?) still consider the fact to sing (even a psaume) as a sinful behavior, because we are sinfull creature by definition and have to repend not to enjoy(I have always enjoy to be catholic since I read that).

Anyway the discussion here is not on the dancing of some half naked girls in a temple, I think mostly posters agree it's not really a good think when coupled with religion. The discussion is on : Do the farangs invented or pushed for that, or is it a local tradition or is it the creation of some greedy busnessmen?

[PhilHarries]

........................................................or is it the creation of some greedy busnessmen?

True, one hunner porsen.

Nobody abuses the lower class Thais as much as the middle and upper class. Reference the case highlighted back in early September in the Bangkok Post regarding the maid from a poor Issan family. Beaten, half starved and generally abused for best part of a year and then dispensed with getting absolutely no pay for her services.

To many Thai businessmen the young, the poor and the working class are non-persons to be used as required in order to advance their own wealth and status. And then they call it the Land of Smiles.

OK I'll get off my soapbox and go take the meds.

[BPayette]

.

Temple festivals have very little to do with religion though, it's entertainment. Huge parties around the temple grounds. And this was the rocket festival, so a huge event. I don't think anyone would go there if there would be no booze nor entertainment. I would imagine temple festivals are a big thing in the country side in Thailand, never seen one though.[/b] I did see some in the Shan States, in the Union of Myanmar. It was a huge party, people getting drunk everywhere. There were two major enterntainment options, ladyboy dancing or kickboxing. I chose the latter. Them both happened inside a walled area, so you had to buy the ticket first.

Yes, in the countryside virtually all the festivals are in the temple grounds. One has to realize that the temples are the primary social focal point for most village or communities, religious and otherwise, so it is natural that "festivals" and shows, which usually have young girls doing rather suggestive dancing in Vegas style cabaret costumes, are held at the temples. In the US the churches serve such a purpose as well for many small communities without community centers.

Also, the temples are often the only places around that have any open space that isn't flooded half the time, and has facilities such as toilets and electricity.

[Jarrod]

It is not unreasonable to expect a certain code of conduct during religious festivals especially in proximity to temples. There would seem no place for erotic dancing at these venues. The reference to under 20 year olds seems unnecessary because dancing by grannies would be just as alarming!

20 year old women are adults by any global standard with freedom of expression and the ability to rationalise their own choice of behaviours. They have the beauty of youth and it should be revered. I would not like to see excessive conservatism in any facet of Thai society. It is counter to the Thai cultural identity. Sanook is part of their daily ethic and the authorities need to seriously consider the impact of restrictive legislation on the wider Thai society.

I am disappointed enough with the western constraints on morality and conduct to the point of despair and there is nothing to be gained by the Thai authorities trying to mimic this discarded Victorian practise. Any action given by any Thai for the enjoyment and entertainment of others which leads to happiness and admiration which is dearly sought after in our modern confrontational world. Well-meaning interactions between people will give us all a better place to live. Dance of whatever form is a beautiful thing and leads to harmony between peoples.

[sting01]

Yes, in the countryside virtually all the festivals are in the temple grounds. One has to realize that the temples are the primary social focal point for most village or communities, religious and otherwise, so it is natural that "festivals" and shows, which usually have young girls doing rather suggestive dancing in Vegas style cabaret costumes, are held at the temples. In the US the churches serve such a purpose as well for many small communities without community centers.

One more time, who cares what the US do , anyway a church (I supposed it was called Temple for protestant or reformed people) is a chuch, mean an holly place, not a market at all. I think 2000 years ago + someone still well know stated clearly holly place are reserved for God and not for commerce.

So maybe, if I believe what this poster say, in some remote north american country it's usual to have half naked girls performing for the entertainment of some middle aged white men. On the other hand, I am still waiting to see that in the so called 'old europe', being myslef a midle aged white male, maybe it would give me the taste to be back home ... But in 2 000 years or so, I never heard of that in any catholic (or arianist as my place was first arianist) church accepting those kind of performance, and by so I am still refusing to see the words 'western culture' or 'western influence' mixed with that kind of performance. If it's purely an US influence, or influence from some special anabatiste US church, so please precise it, because I also doubt those performance is allowed in any honest protestant or reformed temple!

[sonnyJ]

In Finland, they held a disco style techno/light show inside the country's oldest church. Sure some tried to protest, but the thing was as the city officials put it, it was better place for the kids than the other available options. Yes we are protestants.

[thatguy]

ok udon :

http://www.vdoclip.net/ListVideoClip.php?C...0CLIP&cid=1

tg

[pumpuiman]

My wife and I were watching a Thai news program the other day, where this was the topic of discussion.It was discussed that all use of women to promote products would be banned in Thailand.I'm sure marketing departments are worried about this, as the concept of "sex sells" is a proven succesful maketing ploy.It will be interesting to see if morality or the almighty baht will win.

[chownah]

I went out on the net to try to find a reference to girls dancing bare breasted in historic Thailand temple festivals and didn't find it but did find this reference which talks about the history of gender roles etc. in Thailand and it seemed like alot of people who posted here would be interested so:

http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersection...e9/jackson.html

[DrDweeb]

Are there any links with photos of these supposedly half naked young women ?

I have a sneaking suspicion that there were not many bare breasts or pantyless women - which is what most wetserners would consider a pre-requsite for being half-naked.

I suspect the girls were showing some flesh - but despite my personal feeling that it is inappropriate in a Buddhist Temple - the "moral outrage" by some conservative forces does seem a tad over the top.

Of course if they were buck naked and dry-humping a pole, then that's a different matter. If they were like the girls you will see at any trade show anywhere in the world on any given day, then some moderation of the reaction would seem in order.

[redewenur]

Well, it was a member of royalty who made her opinions known and, as we all know, royalty is not ignored in Thailand. The opinions of lesser mortals are of correspondingly lesser importance. Action of some kind - any kind - had to be seen to be done. I would think that the question of whether or not the action can be expected to produce results is very much a secondary consideration.

[andy tl]

Quite a few countries have different ages for different things - in the UK age of consent is 16, marriage and driving 17 and majority (voting) is 18. However most countries in the world are gradually realising that people mature earlier these days and there is some argument that basic human rights should become involved here. The 15 age of consent is for Thais's only and doesn not apply if the partner is farang (even if the partner is 15!!) - at least thats what I have been told.

Most of the "clean up" in Thailand originated from pressure from the United States and other western countries - which is a tad hypocritical since much of the worst sexual exploitation began with the us troops holidaying from Vietnam -- err I believe Pattaya used to be a fishing village before then.

It was a fishing village the yanks went there to catch crabs

[lannarebirth]

Coyote girls 'inappropriate at any age'

Education minister Wijit Srisa-arn disagreed with culture ministry's suggestion to set a minimum age for girls to become a coyote dancer - because no one ever is old enough for such a task.

"If it's inappropriate for girls to be a coyote dancer, it will always be inappropriate, regardless of age," said Mr Wijit on Tuesday. "It's not about the age. It's more about the impropriety to do that in public."

Mr Wijit said the education ministry should consider before issuing a regulation that it would work in reality and that it does not violate individual rights.

Amornvit Nakorndhup, a lecturer at Chulalongkorn University's faculty of education, said there is no need to issue a new regulation if government wants to ban college students from becoming a coyote dancer.

According to Dr Amornvit, universities and education ministry have rules that students must not do anything unethical. "These rules can be applied to the coyote issue, so no need to issue a new one," said Dr Amornvit.

05:16 Oct 31, 2006

Bangkok Post

[udon]

ok udon :

http://www.vdoclip.net/ListVideoClip.php?C...0CLIP&cid=1

tg

Thanks tg.

I'll bet they can't do the foxtrot or waltz......

[yoshiwara]

er, so its Ok for the pole humping to continue if the girls are 21+?

here we go its spaghetti strap time again...............................

[udon]

here we go its spaghetti strap time again...............................

I'd forgotten about that "hub"

[zeitgeist]

Thailand becomes slowly but surely a puritanical police state, like the usa - this really sucks

maybe the new regime should make this dress mandatory for all girls/women below 50

[PhilHarries]

Thailand becomes slowly but surely a puritanical police state, like the usa - this really sucks

maybe the new regime should make this dress mandatory for all girls/women below 50

Do not jest, do not give them ideas!

On the subject of Western influence on Thai culture, which is undoubtably a fact, who exerted influence on the West? Go back, probably 100 years is enough, and the West was like Thailand. Then along came Elvis et al and off we went like a rocket. But even a ways before that how many of the great composers were described as charlatans and their music an abomination? Like it or not change and development is inevitable, the only permanent thing in life is change, to try and suppress it is futile unless we descend into a state like the PDRK.

I think it has been said before in this thread, but what is lacking is personal control and responsibility for ones actions. I don't know who would have been responsible for approving this entertainment at this festival but they should be asked to step forward and explain their actions. Certainly, in this case, the enterainment was entirely inappropriate for the location.

[Darkling]

Ban on under-20 girl presenters/dancers urged

BANGKOK: -- The Culture Ministry will push for a new ministerial regulation that will ban students under 20 years of age from working as scantily-clad product presenters and dancers at events.

The Culture and Education ministries will soon meet to discuss on the issuance of the regulation.

"The regulation can be issued under the Children Protection Act and it can take immediate effect," Ladda Tangsupachai, who heads the Culture Ministry's cultural monitoring centre, said Monday.

....

Are 19 year olds children?

Thay are if you are a father.

[cclub75]

As stated, wisely, by Labour Department (quoted in Nation) :

Meanwhile, Labour Protection and Welfare Department chief Padungsak Thephasdin na Ayutthaya said prohibiting under-20s from working as dancers was against labour rights. He said women aged around 20 were mature and had a right to work where and at what they wished.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/01...al_30017653.php

I guess the "Culture" ministry would need to do its homework...

[pakwan]

I would like to help out here and offer my services in retraining these poor girls into a more fruitful line of work

Pretty soon they will be without work or bahts to support them so please anyone knowing any of these girls should PM me asap and i will try to get them into a better career

BlackJack,

I'm truely moved by your most generous and kind-hearted forethought and would love to throw my hat in the ring and offer my services to help you in what will surely be an onslaught of recently unemployeed, scantily clad, under 20 yr old students seeking guidence and training.

I'm sure that 1 look at all those poor, unfortunate, lost souls seeking further authoritarian instruction will warm my heart right down to my cockles and I shall rise to the occasion and thrust forth on our mission of mercy.

Edited November 1, 2006 by pakwan

[bri1guy]

What is thai for crack down?

Seems to be a very popular saying.

What about non-students under 20 y-o?

What HM The Queen was saying, as I read it, was no sexy girls on temple gates, which suites me fine.

What on earth is a Cultural Monitoring Centre?

I thought Coyote Girls we at a certain A go-go bar in Soi Marine, Pattaya ?

I hope there is no changing on the policies on the Go Go dancer ladies !! As long as they are 18 they should be legal ! I know the image of girls 18 who look maybe even 15 to western standards has a bad image but the fact is they are 18 which is the adult age in thailand corect???

[bkkmadness]

I think to work in the 'trade' they have to be 20. But I could be wrong.

[Jai Dee]

Culture Ministry does not prohibit young people to be Coyote girls

The Culture Minister said it does not prohibit young people under 20 from being a Coyote girl as they are already protected by law.

Minister of Culture Khunying Khaisri Sri-arun (คุณหญิงไขศรี ศรีอรุณ) said the ministry's caretaker permanent secretary had sent a letter to provincial culture offices all over the country, asking them to cooperate with the provinces and local administrations in monitoring performances that may cause damages to Thai culture and tradition.

Khunying Khaisri reassured that the ministry will do its best to tackle this problem after the Office of Her Majesty the Queen's Principal Private Secretary had sent a letter informing about HM the Queen's concern over inappropriate performances on Buddhism's holy days.

The minister said further that at present there are many organizations taking care of the issue. Khunying Khaisri also corrected the misunderstanding that the culture ministry prohibits those under 20 years of age to be a Coyote girl. However, after studying frameworks of the relevant units involved in the matter, the ministry found that the 2003 Child Pretection Act is applicable to such inappropriate dance performed by young people. As for entertainment venues, the Royal Thai Police will make sure that no one under 20 can enter there.

Khunying Khaisri made clear that Coyote dances in entertainment clubs are not prohibited, but those in public places might be banned.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 02 November 2006

[TokyoT]

Well it seems to me that the people who should take control of the situation are the Buddhists that control the temples – the abbots or whatever. They certainly should know more about what is or is not acceptable based upon the Buddhist faith. Certainly they have a better grasp of the Buddhist faith than I do.

I have been to a couple of upcountry “festivals” at/near the temple and they all had this type of dancing, as well as large volumes of alcohol being consumed. But if the abbot of that temple wants to allow such conduct who are we to tell them not to?

I do not see how this is in any way related to western influences – from any angle. But if we want to talk about “festivals” in the west and what goes on there, I’ll throw in my two bits on that as well. Been to a number of church sponsored festivals in the west that had gambling – both cash Bingo, and pull-tab lottery tickets; as well as alcohol. No exotic dancing, but I would say that booze, and gambling rank right up there with exotic dancing as thing generally not to be condoned by the church. Then again cash bingo (otherwise known as gambling) is a pretty big money maker for the Catholic churches where I grew up.

Then again I thought that Buddhists were suppose to judge for themselves what is “right” and what is “wrong” so maybe putting the dancing on display for the whole community to see will allow the individual to make that decision for themselves.