Israeli soldier faces manslaughter charge for killing Palestinian

[johnatong]

Maybe this thread should be locked until there is any NEWS about the case against the IDF soldier? Because people have said pretty much ALL that can be said about the actual TOPIC until there are any new developments.

The shot terrorist is said to have moved ? Was he intent on exploding a device ? Would you have taken a chance ? Me? I would have done as the soldier is reported to have done.

As the Israelis themselves have said, the stupidest thing you can do is shoot someone in this situation. Because they may be wearing an explosive device.

Allegedly the fatal shot(s) were fired at the head?

Do the terrorists have some means of rigging their heads to explosive devices ?

[Scott]

More troll posts have been removed and suspensions are now being given.

[dexterm]

Maybe this thread should be locked until there is any NEWS about the case against the IDF soldier? Because people have said pretty much ALL that can be said about the actual TOPIC until there are any new developments.

The shot terrorist is said to have moved ? Was he intent on exploding a device ? Would you have taken a chance ? Me? I would have done as the soldier is reported to have done.

The injured man had been lying there for 10 minutes untreated with other IDF casually walking past the body, one even bending down to fasten his shoe laces. He had already been checked for any other weapons.

All he did was move his head slightly, as he lay supine with his arms clearly outstretched.

If he had had an explosive vest, he would have simply walked up to the platoon earlier and exploded it, rather than use a knife.

You are using the standard excuse to continue the Israel-is-never-wrong narrative.

Consider the other possibility: that Israel (just like other armies in the world) just might have some personnel like this IDF soldier in its ranks... a hateful racist ultranationalistic psychopath, who was determined to and enjoyed killing the Palestinian.

But this one has been caught red handed on camera.

Just a thought. If Israel wants to improve its credibility, why doesn't it invest some of its $billions in aid money from US each year to equip say 2 members of a platoon with body cams as other armies and police forces around the world do. It is available now with encrypted tamper proof software that instantly sends the info back to HQ. It would go a long way to establishing the truth in disputed cases and may improve Israel's PR.

Better still, issue every Palestinian with a $20 smartphone.

Edited April 2, 2016 by dexterm

[DaddyWarbucks]

Maybe this thread should be locked until there is any NEWS about the case against the IDF soldier? Because people have said pretty much ALL that can be said about the actual TOPIC until there are any new developments.

The shot terrorist is said to have moved ? Was he intent on exploding a device ? Would you have taken a chance ? Me? I would have done as the soldier is reported to have done.

The injured man had been lying there for 10 minutes untreated with other IDF casually walking past the body, one even bending down to fasten his shoe laces. He had already been checked for any other weapons.

All he did was move his head slightly, as he lay supine with his arms clearly outstretched.

If he had had an explosive vest, he would have simply walked up to the platoon earlier and exploded it, rather than use a knife.

You are using the standard excuse to continue the Israel-is-never-wrong narrative.

Consider the other possibility: that Israel (just like other armies in the world) just might have some personnel like this IDF soldier in its ranks... a hateful racist ultranationalistic psychopath, who was determined to and enjoyed killing the Palestinian.

But this one has been caught red handed on camera.

Just a thought. If Israel wants to improve its credibility, why doesn't it invest some of its $billions in aid money from US each year to equip say 2 members of a platoon with body cams as other armies and police forces around the world do. It is available now with encrypted tamper proof software that instantly sends the info back to HQ. It would go a long way to establishing the truth in disputed cases and may improve Israel's PR.

Better still, issue every Palestinian with a $20 smartphone.

Exceptionally good post that demolishes the propaganda talking points one by one.

[up-country_sinclair]

Imagine the deceased terrorist, who set out with the intention to injure and kill as many people as possible, had succeeded and had managed to escape back to the Palestinian authority, or any Muslim neighbor country. The video, clearly identifying the attacker was posted and goes viral. Do you think the PA or any Muslim government would have made any effort to arrest this terrorist, bring charges and carry out a trial?

What are you on about? Been watching a few too many episodes of "24" I would imagine.

This man was going up against an armed member of a brutal occupying force.

To you that makes him a terrorist?

What the IDF ensured by murdering an unarmed man in the street is that he will be considered a martyr.

[up-country_sinclair]

Better still, issue every Palestinian with a $20 smartphone.

This is one of the things the occupiers fear most. The truth making its way on to TV screens around the world.

If the video showing this unarmed man being murdered in the street hadn't been available, you can be sure that the occupiers (and of course their apologists), would have been lying that he had a gun or he was wearing a suicide vest or he made a move to attack a soldier.

Israel's greatest foe is the truth.

[Thorgal]

So both Palestinian men passed a metal detector...or started stabbing in front of half dozen IDF soldiers...

The father doesn’t believe that the two friends and colleagues carried out an attack, and he wasn't invited to court to witness...

Both Palestinians planned to take a bus to East Jerusalem.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Thorgal

[Scott]

More posts removed and more members on suspension.

[Happy Grumpy]

The Israeli soldier who shot and killed an unarmed Palestinian attacker at point blank will face a manslaughter charge,

The prosecutors said the soldier shot the Palestinian who tried to stab another soldier in Hebron,

Forgive me if I do not understand...but is there not a slight contradiction here?.

No.

Not if he attacks a soldier with a knife.

Is shot with a bodyshot.

Drops to the ground and the knife falls away from him.

He is now an unarmed and wounded.

Another soldier walks up to him and shoots him the head at point blank range.

I haven't watched the video but believe that that is what happened.

Certainly sounds like a murder case, not completely premeditated, but still obviously murder.

He could possibly have gone the route of claiming he thought that he was wearing a suicide vest and was about to detonate it, and have the charges dropped on grounds similar to self defence.

Manslaughter is simply a disgraceful charge for such an obvious case.

[Jingthing]

Perhaps it's a compromise charge.

It should be easy to convict for manslaughter and much harder for murder.

The manslaughter punishment is not trivial.

Keep in mind there are real political pressures impacting on this case.

The IDF is vital to Israel's continued existence.

A murder conviction would create a lot of pushback from the right wing and morale issues for the IDF in general.

Of course, so many people will never be satisfied whatever it is that Israel does on this case.

Nobody is claiming that everything that happens in Israel is perfect. Just like other countries.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Jingthing

[Thorgal]

Whatever the IDF military court from OP decides:

A Palestinian diplomat from Ramallah filed a complaint to the French embassador in Tel Aviv. Apparently, the IDF soldier had dual citizenship. A French court will have to decide if the French national can be prosecuted or not in France.

Quote from link :

"The United Nations special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Christof Heyns, reviewed the Hebron footage and stated: "The images shown carry all the signs of a clear case of an extrajudicial execution."

In response to such attacks, 11 US senators have signed a letter calling on President Barack Obama to investigate alleged Israeli human rights abuses to decide whether military aid to Israel should be cut."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-soldier-who-shot-dead-unarmed-palestinian-assailant-has-charge-dropped-from-murder-to-a6962101.html

Edited April 2, 2016 by Thorgal

[Saradoc1972]

Whatever the IDF military court from OP decides:

A Palestinian diplomat from Ramallah filed a complaint to the French embassador in Tel Aviv. Apparently, the IDF soldier had dual citizenship. A French court will have to decide if the French national can be prosecuted or not in France.

Quote from link :

"The United Nations special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Christof Heyns, reviewed the Hebron footage and stated: "The images shown carry all the signs of a clear case of an extrajudicial execution."

In response to such attacks, 11 US senators have signed a letter calling on President Barack Obama to investigate alleged Israeli human rights abuses to decide whether military aid to Israel should be cut."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-soldier-who-shot-dead-unarmed-palestinian-assailant-has-charge-dropped-from-murder-to-a6962101.html

Well spotted, interesting. I've even tried to read this up but I don't know anything about French law in particular. Apparently they could prosecute, but only if their state's attorney sees fit to do so (I'd steer well clear from that) and the complaint from a Palestinian ambassador might not be sufficient to get things going. But I suppose that killed chap has some successor who will be delighted to step in. Anyway, Israel does not extradite own citizens, so might just make the world much smaller for that soldier for two decades or so.

I've only been following this thread on a cursory basis, so just some other points:

• the distinction between manslaughter and murder is usually one of the most difficult and fought over in any jurisdiction. I don't have a clue about the Israeli legal system, but it's going to be not trivial at best. It's a bit presuming to think you can do that from where-ever you are reclining without having access to any direct witnesses and everything else, and useless to muse over.

• Things are different in Israel as everybody knows, it does not matter who's fault that is. I bet you don't have checkpoints with metal detectors on the roads in your own country. I wager nerves down there are a bit on edge as you can only look at peoples' foreheads and don't know who might be out to get you. You, personally, and your bonus lives. Like that solider driven off in that ambulance. It does not matter who the culprit for the whole mess is, Israel or the Arabs. It's still *you* standing there, catching that knife or being blown to pieces or not.

• We're talking about a 19-y-o kid, who likely as not has been drafted into service and told to stand where he doesn't really want to be. In some jurisdictions that would be for juvenile court. And if he does not get things right it's his life, young as he might be. or maybe just an eye or so. I have made a lot of posts on the recent trials on old Nazis in Germany, you might like them or not, I still think it's wrong to take out a big, big controversial issue on a juvenile like the whole world were resting on his shoulders. This is about this kid, not any other perceived Arab or Israeli war-crime, if you want to call them that.

• Any conviction for a felony needs an element of guilt on part of the accused, sometimes called "mens rea". This calls for knowledge of the facts and wanting for the crime to happen. Without knowledge there can be no will to do anything, and there is room for error as any knowledge is subjective. Might be a different mechanism in place aside from mens rea, but it's this chap's honest perception of what perspired there that counts, at the moment right before he pulled that trigger, not what is established after the fact or what a calmer, more informed bystander made of it.

• From that video it looks like the guy had just witnessed a fellow soldier being stabbed and being hauled off in an ambulance. He was standing there for some 10 minutes with his gun, guarding the supine later casualty. Shot him only then in an extrajudicial killing? Been working up rage all that time, to then act on it only when everything around him had been calming down, no shouting, no nothing? Sounds not really likely to me, just saying.

• There is no jury system in Israeli criminal courts, much less in the military trial chap will be facing, not even lay judges. For that kind of trial it would be asking too much of prospective jury members anyway, with a view to possible pressure and revenge from radicals.

• it does still occur to everyone Israel is the only state in the ME or the Arab belt where there *is* an actual investigation against a member of its armed forces for shooting someone who had just been incapacitated in self-defense for using a knife on another soldier? Where there is rule of law in that it does not matter if the victim was a member of a disliked minority? Never heard of anything like that from Egypt or you name it. Doesn't happen. Subject resisted, subject shot, hole in the desert, end of story.

[Jingthing]

Aha.

So it does sound like the findings from the autopsy will be relevant to the case against the IDF soldier.

So the defense seems to want it to show that al-Sharif was still with it before the head shot to support the thought he had a bomb theory.

Seems pretty weak.

IDF prosecutors say evidence points to a terrible intention to kill al-Sharif despite the fact that the stabber had been neutralized, and lay apparently helpless on the ground. The soldier has argued that al-Sharif was moving, and said he believed the Palestinian could have been carrying an explosive vest or other device that posed a threat to bystanders.

According to prosecutors, the autopsy will provide critical evidence that may corroborate or undermine the soldier’s defense.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-stabber-killed-in-hebron-to-undergo-autopsy/

As far as the noise of saying the pair didn't do a knife attack, what are they saying, that the injured IDF soldier knifed himself?

Edited April 3, 2016 by Jingthing

[up-country_sinclair]

Whatever the IDF military court from OP decides:

A Palestinian diplomat from Ramallah filed a complaint to the French embassador in Tel Aviv. Apparently, the IDF soldier had dual citizenship. A French court will have to decide if the French national can be prosecuted or not in France.

Quote from link :

"The United Nations special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Christof Heyns, reviewed the Hebron footage and stated: "The images shown carry all the signs of a clear case of an extrajudicial execution."

For those interested in justice and not yet another IDF cover up, this is potentially great news.

Of course this killer will not get a fair trial by his fellow occupiers, it will be a show trial from start to finish. The case (and the irrefutable video evidence) needs to be shown/heard in a courtroom that values truth and justice over greed and discrimination.

[Jingthing]

OK, the finding, not surprising, are that the head shot done by the charged IDF soldier was the fatal wound.

Hebron stabber was still alive when shot by soldier, autopsy said to find

Palestinian doctor auditing examination of high-profile case reportedly says al-Sharif was killed by bullet shot by infantryman; official results yet to be released

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hebron-stabber-was-still-alive-when-shot-by-soldier-autopsy-said-to-find/

[Galactus]

OK, the finding, not surprising, are that the head shot done by the charged IDF soldier was the fatal wound.

Hebron stabber was still alive when shot by soldier, autopsy said to find

Palestinian doctor auditing examination of high-profile case reportedly says al-Sharif was killed by bullet shot by infantryman; official results yet to be released

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hebron-stabber-was-still-alive-when-shot-by-soldier-autopsy-said-to-find/

thanks for the info. It is nice to know that at least some pro Israelis here can see the truth.

sad indeed. and murdered IDF soldier is acting like he is the savior of all Israel!

he clearly needs some attitude adjustment. hopefully Israeli authorities will make him regret this action and show all IDF soldiers as good example on what can happen to them if any extra judicial murders.

[Jingthing]

Interesting take on the IDF code and how it impacts on this case, and much much more ...

I Wrote the IDF Code of Ethics. Here’s My Take on the Hebron Shooting.

This tumult may give the impression that something has gone astray in the ethical fabric of Israeli society and even within the IDF. That impression is false. No one incident, grave as it may be, indicates a widespread weakness. The IDF and many other parts of Israeli society are morally strong and resilient; they will overcome terrorist activities, on the one hand, and marginal failures to maintain high ethical standards, on the other.

http://forward.com/opinion/337841/i-wrote-the-idf-code-of-ethics-heres-my-take-on-the-hebron-shooting/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

[up-country_sinclair]

Cold blooded murder

[Credo]

Yup, it's never a good idea to bring a knife to a gun fight.

[stillbornagain]

I believe there's one huge fact that's been ignored in this thread. It something that police have become well aware of: don't get caught doing bad stuff on video. Had this incident not been recorded, would there still have been a serious investigation? How many soldiers have been actually convicted of committing crimes? And given changing Israel attitudes about Arabs, why wouldn't we expect soldiers to be anything but an accurate sample of the demographics they're drawn from?

This is one that polled the upcoming generation of Israelis: http://www.haaretz.com/poll-half-of-israeli-high-schoolers-oppose-equal-rights-for-arabs-1.264564

Here's another: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/porearabs.html

What makes this latter one interesting is that according to the answers to one of the questions 30% of Israelis feel hatred when they hear Arabic being spoken on the streets.

[Steely Dan]

Maybe this thread should be locked until there is any NEWS about the case against the IDF soldier? Because people have said pretty much ALL that can be said about the actual TOPIC until there are any new developments.

The shot terrorist is said to have moved ? Was he intent on exploding a device ? Would you have taken a chance ? Me? I would have done as the soldier is reported to have done.

Maybe, but I did read that a junior commander present was worried about the possibility of suicide belts so I suspect this will get an airing when the case comes to court.

[Jingthing]

Controversy over whether to call Palestinian stab attackers of IDF soldiers in disputed zones terrorists or not.

I think not.

I know Israel demonization agenda would call them freedom fighters but I think a more neutral phrase is better.

Not sure what it is though.
Perhaps civilian combatant?

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Right-Left-slam-Arab-lawmaker-who-wont-call-Palestinian-stabber-terrorist-450590

[johnatong]

Controversy over whether to call Palestinian stab attackers of IDF soldiers in disputed zones terrorists or not.

I think not.

I know Israel demonization agenda would call them freedom fighters but I think a more neutral phrase is better.

Not sure what it is though.

Perhaps civilian combatant?

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Right-Left-slam-Arab-lawmaker-who-wont-call-Palestinian-stabber-terrorist-450590

'Terrorist" seems an adequate name for those sworn to remove Israel from the map.

[Jingthing]

Controversy over whether to call Palestinian stab attackers of IDF soldiers in disputed zones terrorists or not.

I think not.

I know Israel demonization agenda would call them freedom fighters but I think a more neutral phrase is better.

Not sure what it is though.

Perhaps civilian combatant?

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Right-Left-slam-Arab-lawmaker-who-wont-call-Palestinian-stabber-terrorist-450590

'Terrorist" seems an adequate name for those sworn to remove Israel from the map.

Perhaps.

But I don't know what was in their heads.

Maybe they were moderates.

[Galactus]

Controversy over whether to call Palestinian stab attackers of IDF soldiers in disputed zones terrorists or not.

I think not.

I know Israel demonization agenda would call them freedom fighters but I think a more neutral phrase is better.

Not sure what it is though.

Perhaps civilian combatant?

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Right-Left-slam-Arab-lawmaker-who-wont-call-Palestinian-stabber-terrorist-450590

nice to hear such discussions in Israel.

at least some Israelis can speak the truth.

again, we cannot call someone defending his unlawfully occupied land or house a terrorist. Defending our lands and homes means defending our right of existence and human rights.

So, i call them resistance.

here are some quotes from Universal Deceleration of Human Rights which, of course, Israel did not sign or acknowledge this declaration. So Israel robbed Palestinians regarding these following basic human rights so we cannot call Palestinians terrorists but defenders or resistance:

* 'Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law.'

* 'Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.'

* 'No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.'

* '(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.'

'(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.'

* 'Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.'