Water pump for pumping 40 meters?

[Happy Grumpy]

We have a converted attic unit, the bathroom has low water pressure due to elevation. Above the ceiling is bricked off and there isn’t a large enough trapdoor in the ceiling for a person to climb up and install a pump just above the bathroom.

The only real access to the water mains is about 35-40 meters distance from the bathroom, at about 1 meter higher elevation.

The local pump shop had a few small pumps that could go above the bathroom – cheapest Chinese one was 1,500 baht, up to 4,500 for a better non-Chinese one.

Obviously small pumps.

Is anybody educated enough in such matters to know what sort of pump would be needed to pump the water 35-40 meters to the bathroom to give the shower decent power. (the water pipe supplies a shower, toilet, bathroom sink and kitchen sink, all about 30-40 meters away.

Thanks very much.

[bankruatsteve]

What is the reason you want to install the pump above the bathroom? And, how do you currently get water if the mains are 40m away? You will want some kind of reservoir (tank) to draw the water from instead of direct from the main when using a pump.

Anyway, you will need a pump with enough "head" to reach the shower unit. What is the height to there?

Edited April 3, 2016 by bankruatsteve

[Happy Grumpy]

It's a finsihed unit, the system is all running, but the pressure is low due to the elevation. The shower is about a meter or less lower than the big water tank which is 40 meters away. Low shower pressure which we want to increase.

It isn't possible to get above the bathroom to install a small pump that would connect to the shower pipe. Thus we're interested in getting a bigger pump that would be situated next to the big water tank that supplies the bathroom from around 40m away, as it's just about the only viable place to set up a pump, otherwise it means going through walls and ceilings, which we don't really want to do.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Happy Grumpy

[bankruatsteve]

To incorporate a pump, it just needs to be in-line, at some point, any point, to the point of use. If you are saying you want to use the pump ONLY for the upstairs shower, when needed, then you could work out something with valves to accommodate. Is the "big water tank" something that is for your use only?

Again, what is the elevation of the shower from the lowest point you have your water pipes?

[KhunBENQ]

?

The shower is about a meter or less lower than the big water tank which is 40 meters away. Low shower pressure which we want to increase.

Do you really say that the shower is supplied by a water tank 40 m away and the outlet of the tank only 1m higher than the shower head?

Of course this will not produce satisfactory results.

The horizontal distance is not a big deal.

It's always the vertical distance that makes the difference.

If you want to supply only one bathroom/shower then about any simple pump with a pressure switch should do the job.

And even a 1/2 inch pipe should suffice.

And the pump should be close to the tank outlet.

Letting it suck through the 40m pipe is not a good idea!

It could just about work with a 1m height difference (pump intake lower than tank outlet!) but why the hassle?

I don't get the whole picture though.

All the rest is supplied without a pump?

Just driven by downstream from an elevated tank?

Edited April 3, 2016 by KhunBENQ

[sappersrest]

easy to use pump selection chart.

http://mitsubishiele...-pump-specs.pdf

[Happy Grumpy]

To incorporate a pump, it just needs to be in-line, at some point, any point, to the point of use. If you are saying you want to use the pump ONLY for the upstairs shower, when needed, then you could work out something with valves to accommodate. Is the "big water tank" something that is for your use only?

Again, what is the elevation of the shower from the lowest point you have your water pipes?

The tank is used by another 2-3 units (not belonging to us).

It is in a different city so I cannot do the measurenments. The big water tank in on the hallway roof (just above the ceiling). The shower is just under the roof, but about 40m away. The unit has a convertic attic, which bricked off the unit from above the hallway, so the only way to get to the pipe (and install a pump) is next to the big water tank.

[Happy Grumpy]

?

The shower is about a meter or less lower than the big water tank which is 40 meters away. Low shower pressure which we want to increase.

Do you really say that the shower is supplied by a water tank 40 m away and the outlet of the tank only 1m higher than the shower head?

Of course this will not produce satisfactory results.

The horizontal distance is not a big deal.

It's always the vertical distance that makes the difference.

If you want to supply only one bathroom/shower then about any simple pump with a pressure switch should do the job.

And even a 1/2 inch pipe should suffice.

And the pump should be close to the tank outlet.

Letting it suck through the 40m pipe is not a good idea!

It could just about work with a 1m height difference (pump intake lower than tank outlet!) but why the hassle?

I don't get the whole picture though.

All the rest is supplied without a pump?

Just driven by downstream from an elevated tank?

Yes.

[Happy Grumpy]

You'll need to excuse my poor drawing skills.

I guess my question is:

What pump should I get to be installed where the red pump is in my picture, next to the big water tank, to give decent water pressure in the bathroom on the far right of the pic.

Thanks.

[bankruatsteve]

A small 80W pump should do it. Is the pipe from the tank in your drawing just for you? Whatever, anything downstream from the pump will then be on the pump pressure.

A 40 meter bedroom? Really?

[Happy Grumpy]

Thanks very much for your advice.

I think that there are 2 or 3 pipes going to 2 or 3 units. That pipe is just for this unit.

So I'm guessing that the 100W pump in the red rectangle would be okay?

http://mitsubishielectricmalaysia.com/products/water-pump/q3/water-pump-specs.pdf

As an aside, the bedroom is acually around 10m shorter than the downstairs, due to the sloping roof, and bedroom windows look down over the kitchen area. I just neglected that in my diagram.

Thanks very much for your help.

[Happy Grumpy]

http://www.sripiboon.com/product-en-0-529936-Pump+MITSUBISHI+WP+105Q3+++100+W.html#

I didn't really look at the piping when there, do all these pumps have the same size inlet and outlet, or does it not matter (if they cut the main pipe, connect via connection pipe, then do the same for the outlet when installing?)

Edited April 3, 2016 by Happy Grumpy

[Happy Grumpy]

^^ Does the 'Discharge Head' in the the above chart mean the distance to where the water will come out, ie, the shower?

[Crossy]

^^ Does the 'Discharge Head' in the the above chart mean the distance to where the water will come out, ie, the shower?

No.

Since you have about 0m elevation (head) of the shower above the pump you should look at the next column "Discharge Capacity at 0m" for the baby pump that's 29L/min (about 6 gallons per minute), should be enough for a decent shower

In reality the pipe adds to the head (friction losses etc.) so you'll get slightly less than the ideal, but even at 12m effective head it's going to give 21 L/min.

[Happy Grumpy]

Great, thanks.

Presumably you just leave these switched on at the circuit breaker, and they only power up when you turn on an outlet (tap/shower)?

[CGW]

Discharge head is the hydrostatic head, if you had to pump to a height of 40m you would need to have a pump with a minimum pumping capacity (HP) of 57psi (392 kpa/m) or something like that! If you are pumping in a straight line you need far less HP though you will still have friction losses, more if the pipe gets smaller.

Edited April 3, 2016 by CGW

[ThaiKneeTim]

The pump needs to be as close to the tank as possible, or a larger delivery pipe between tank and pump inlet if it's more than a metre away, or you're likely to build up a vacuum and put extra strain on the pump.

I'd advise using a pump with expansion tank, or including one in the system, to reduce the likelihood of the pump cycling in and off.

I'm in the process of upgrading our system which was installed by someone lacking any skills whatsoever, and that was an afterthought when, in my absence, the gf tried running of mains pressure, which varies from about 10 PSI to -2 PSI depending on the time of day.

An additional 500 litre tank, an expansion vessel and enough valves to be able to work on parts of the system while maintaining the water supply.

I might start a thread with photos, and the P&ID I've drawn up.

[sometime]

In the future you might want to install filters sediment & carbon, so I would allow for a more powerful pump.

[Happy Grumpy]

If anybody could porovide a link to a unit that would (likely) do, it would be great.

From the sounds of it, and what I understand this should be okay:

http://www.sripiboon.com/product-en-0-529936-Pump+MITSUBISHI+WP+105Q3+++100+W.html#

thanks

[bankruatsteve]

I would go to your local place that sells pumps and just get the smallest pressure pump they have. Again, that should be about 80W and B1500 or less. I have used one of those to pump water out to a bamboo field with the farthest point at least 100m and still good pressure. You have no head requirement so just get something that will give you some pressure. It's really that simple.

Oh- the normal size for pump in/out is 1". So, you would need 1" to 1/2" conversion but that is also very easy to source.

Edited April 3, 2016 by bankruatsteve

[Happy Grumpy]

Fantastic. Thanks very much.

[Sophon]

http://www.sripiboon.com/product-en-0-529936-Pump+MITSUBISHI+WP+105Q3+++100+W.html#

I didn't really look at the piping when there, do all these pumps have the same size inlet and outlet, or does it not matter (if they cut the main pipe, connect via connection pipe, then do the same for the outlet when installing?)

The inlet/outlet pipe sizes are mentioned in the specifications you posted in post 11, so while 1 inch is more or less standard it would seem that the 100W pump you are looking at uses 3/4 inch.

Sophon

[Happy Grumpy]

^ Thanks.

I'd guess that that isn't a major problem, and it's just a case of them using an adapter of some sort when installing it?

[Litlos]

If anybody could porovide a link to a unit that would (likely) do, it would be great.

From the sounds of it, and what I understand this should be okay:

http://www.sripiboon.com/product-en-0-529936-Pump+MITSUBISHI+WP+105Q3+++100+W.html#

thanks

That is what you need. I have one of the same family that is a little bit bigger and it gives excellent service. Has no problem supplying enough water for our house and garden.

A hint is to measure the outside diameter of the existing water pipes and make a sketch of how you wish to install assuming the existing pipes are not going line up with the pump connections. I have found the pipe sizing to be a bit strange so is handy to be able to double check whilst in the hardware store that I am getting the correct size. You may also need to get some 90 degree bends to aid in aligning the pipe to the pump inlet/outlet. The smaller shops will also sell PVC by the metre if you need a bit extra.

Cheers

[Happy Grumpy]

Thanks.

Unfortunately I would likely need to buy blind.... buy it online (or similar), then installed by someone else.

Not the best of situations.

But good info in this thread.

Thanks.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Happy Grumpy

[sometimewoodworker]

Thanks.

Unfortunately I would likely need to buy blind.... buy it online (or similar), then installed by someone else.

Not the best of situations.

But good info in this thread.

Thanks.

There are a couple of points.

First the Mitsubishi WP series are not consistent pressure pumps. If your shower is an instant heater version then Mitsubish recommend the EP series.

Both he the WP and the EP include pressure vessels. The WP series has a bigger one but it gets waterlogged after some time and needs to be drained occasionally. You can virtually guarantee that the smallest one will be big enough as long as you don't want full flow from several outlets at the same time.

The second point is that the smallest EP has a pressure of 1.8 bar, the next one up is 2.8 bar.

We have the smallest and it's easily big enough with enough pressure for us.

We are also using 1/2 inch pipe everywhere, which I don't recommend (but it does work). Bigger is better for flow and pressure. Our new house is using 32mm up the outlets.

Edited April 4, 2016 by sometimewoodworker