Usufruct Registration in Chiang Mai

[Mark0]

Hi All,

I’m looking for experiences registering a Usufruct agreement at Chiang Mai land office. Planning for a Usufruct agreement between my Thai girlfriend as owner of our new home (land & house in a moo baan) and myself, farang, with proper visa, permits, tax ID, etc.

My questions:
1. any feedback on successful registrations in the last 3-6 months, e.g. at Sansai district, would be appreciated.
2. any recommendation of a local lawyer/attorney with a good record of usufruct preparation and registrations. Have seen some posts mentioning Khun Sumalee Jennapa … any comments ?

P.S.: I was reading through various threads discussing usufruct’s, life long / 30 years lease (with/without rental benefits), etc. which was already very helpful. However this thread is only about sharing practical registration experiences in Chiang Mai over the last few months.

Appreciate your comments - Thx !

[LivinLOS]

K Sumalee handled ours.. Hang Dong..

Usual issues highlighted (wife holding the Usufruct) but I am not that bothered.. she can have it if it came to it..

Its often possible to split the property into land (with usufruct) and house owned.. Harder than with a self build but can be done.

[sappersrest]

Very good company Used them for our "purchase" my wife and I are both non Thai and live in Sansai district.

http://www.lawyerchiangmai.com/

Edited April 4, 2016 by sappersrest

[anto]

I bought my house in Sansai ,5 or 6 years ago ,with my Thai wife and got the Usufruct .The Lawyer firm were LOCAL ,whose name i forget at the moment .They told us we needed to do the Usufruct 2 weeks after the Purchase .(could not be done together they said ) .They charged B5000 for the purchase and another B5000 for the Usufruct .

[HullyGully]

You should have the Usufruct for LIFE, not 30 years, I understand at the Land Office the details are entered onto the Chanote

If you an also include the right to transfer, which I think is called Superficies.

So you should have both

[anto]

>>I understand at the Land Office the details are entered onto the Chanote<<

My name is registered on the Chanote .

[HullyGully]

Once your name is on the Chanote, the land cannot be sold with removing you

In other words, you wife would not be able to sell the land / house without your agreement

Sensible move

[cheeryble]

We have previously bought a usufruct form from the copy shop opposite the (Mae Rim) LO after being recommended by the top golly there.

Cost about 5 baht and have been told this simple standard version might be more solid than anything fancy.

[tpthai2]

Sumalee Jennapa recommended...

[Rotweiler]

Get a yellow book. It shows you are the owner of the house (not the land, which can only be held by a Thai or a Thai company).

Best guarantee you can have.since this is registered on the chanote itself.

You can do this yourself at the local Amphur office.

[DonaldBattles]

In Chiang Rai it cost 75 Baht and is finished in about 15 minutes. You do have the legal right to sublet. The sublet contract came to the Thai supreme court. The person was dead but the court ruled that it was a legal contract entered into while the man was still living. Thus the lessee kept the property for 30 years.

[Dante99]

There are many different land offices in Chiang Mai, some mentioned above. Better if the OP told which one he intended to use, the one that handles the area in which his intended purchase lies.

[puukao]

you lost me at usufruct....

but i know where to get good mango shakes!!!

[LivinLOS]

Get a yellow book. It shows you are the owner of the house (not the land, which can only be held by a Thai or a Thai company).

Best guarantee you can have.since this is registered on the chanote itself.

You can do this yourself at the local Amphur office.

Terrible advice..

Yellow book does not in any way confer ownership of the house.. You can get them on a rental house.. Its the farang equivalent of being put on a tabien baan.

You can register a name on a chanote, by way of lease, usufruct, superficies, or loan.. Again this does not confer ownership, only liens.. This is defined as a 'real right' under Thai law and is far firmer than civil code contract law. Property can be sold with a lien, but the terms of the lien must be adhered to.

Whoever is giving your advice, change them.. Yet I see the 'you can do it yourself' which is perhaps why you have it so badly wrong.

[LivinLOS]

In Chiang Rai it cost 75 Baht and is finished in about 15 minutes. You do have the legal right to sublet. The sublet contract came to the Thai supreme court. The person was dead but the court ruled that it was a legal contract entered into while the man was still living. Thus the lessee kept the property for 30 years.

When I asked about this ability, eg the right of a usufruct holder to issue a lease, without the assistance of the registered land owner.. I was advised that although the law says this is correct, the land office will very often refuse the instruction (as they are a law unto themselves, some dont even like to issue usufructs). I was advised it was highly unlikely Hang Dong would act on this instruction, without the express consent of the landowner (defeating the purpose effectively).

Are you saying a civil code contract, not entered into by a land office, was then later upheld and turned into a registered lease ?? Or that a usufruct holder already had created the registered lease, recorded at the land office, and this leasehold was later challenged ???

I suspect the latter would work, the former less so.. The problem lies when you wish to achieve the latter and run into a land office who simply refuse to record it

[HullyGully]

I understand that the Usufruct holder could lease the house / land to someone person

When the land dies the lease is still valid / upheld

[HullyGully]

The Yellow House is not proof of house ownership, it lists the people living in the house

The Yellow Book is issued by the Amphur, handy for proof of address

[HullyGully]

Generally, people would not buy a property with a Usufruct attached

[anto]

There are many different land offices in Chiang Mai, some mentioned above. Better if the OP told which one he intended to use, the one that handles the area in which his intended purchase lies.

Read again ,he said SanSai ,Land and house Moobaan to be specific .The Land office itself is about 100 meters up towards Maejoe on the other side of the road from there .

[anto]

The Yellow House is not proof of house ownership, it lists the people living in the house

The Yellow Book is issued by the Amphur, handy for proof of address

Correct ,it has nothing to do with the Chanote or the Land office ,you get it from the local Amphur .In my case i had to bring my wife and two Thai neighbors to guarantee that they knew me and that i did live at that address .

[LivinLOS]

I understand that the Usufruct holder could lease the house / land to someone person

When the land dies the lease is still valid / upheld

Yes a registered lease, should, if laws are followed as they are supposed to be, survives the death of the issuer..

Where this gets more legally thorny is if you have a lifetime usufruct, can you issue a 30 year lease that will outlive you ?? Don (whose a source of solid information and been here a long time) says above this is established in the courts. I am curious if the lease was recorded prior to the death of the person and challenged, or written prior to their death and registered afterwards. The issue becomes at what point was it challenged.

Certainly adding a lease with the assistance and permission of the registered land owner shouldnt be a problem, its just like the land owner who legally holds that right agreeing to the actions of the usufruct holder. What is far more difficult is a farang, walking in with another farang, and registering a leasehold right, on a parcel of land, which he doesnt technically own but does hold usufruct over. While the law states this should be possible on a technicality K. Sumalee told me that she thought it very unlikely that most land officers would accept such a situation. Even going as far to point out some land officers were still fighting giving simple usufructs to farangs as they were scared it was nominee ownership, even tho its pretty well established.

[anto]

>>Even going as far to point out some land officers were still fighting giving simple usufructs to farangs as they were scared it was nominee ownership, even tho its pretty well established. <<

I was told SanSai and Doi Saket Land offices were such a case ,5 or 6 years ago at least .You could not get the Usufruct on the same day as the Land/house purchase .In my case i had to wait 2 weeks .(for the reason you stated ).

[LivinLOS]

>>Even going as far to point out some land officers were still fighting giving simple usufructs to farangs as they were scared it was nominee ownership, even tho its pretty well established. <<

I was told SanSai and Doi Saket Land offices were such a case ,5 or 6 years ago at least .You could not get the Usufruct on the same day as the Land/house purchase .In my case i had to wait 2 weeks .(for the reason you stated ).

Mine was done same day.. In fact purchase and Usufruct took minutes.. But it was handled by K Sumalee who was known to everyone senior in the office, was greeted like a long lost sister by some bigwig and we basically walked in, skipped the queue, were given ice water and high wais, and it was done in moments.. Your paying for her connections as well as the advice.

[HullyGully]

If you add a lease and its over 3 years, say 30 years, then tax is payable

A 3 year lease does not need to be registered, and no tax

[ricklev]

In Chiang Rai it cost 75 Baht and is finished in about 15 minutes. You do have the legal right to sublet. The sublet contract came to the Thai supreme court. The person was dead but the court ruled that it was a legal contract entered into while the man was still living. Thus the lessee kept the property for 30 years.

When I asked about this ability, eg the right of a usufruct holder to issue a lease, without the assistance of the registered land owner.. I was advised that although the law says this is correct, the land office will very often refuse the instruction (as they are a law unto themselves, some dont even like to issue usufructs). I was advised it was highly unlikely Hang Dong would act on this instruction, without the express consent of the landowner (defeating the purpose effectively).

Are you saying a civil code contract, not entered into by a land office, was then later upheld and turned into a registered lease ?? Or that a usufruct holder already had created the registered lease, recorded at the land office, and this leasehold was later challenged ???

I suspect the latter would work, the former less so.. The problem lies when you wish to achieve the latter and run into a land office who simply refuse to record it

I write this only to atone for my small role in perpetuating the myth of the 30+30+30 land lease when I worked for a law firm many years ago and to help anyone confused about usufructs. Whenever this topic comes up I post, but pretty much without any expectation of it doing any good.

There is no confusion, puzzlement, ambiguity etc. by any real Thai property lawyer, judge, or property law professor that there is no right in Thai law for the holder of a usufruct to register a lease at the land office. No confusion at all. A usufruct holder should not be allowed to register a lease at the land office.

I understand that a few farang oriented law firms say there is a right in Thai law for the usufruct holder to register a lease. They are wrong. Just like they were wrong when they told you you could have a 30+30+30 year lease. I know how these things work. They are just copying each others mistake with no basis in law.

I hate the idea that some people are going to get a usufruct expecting to be able to register a thirty year lease for a substantial amount of money at some point in the future.

However, if the land office does allow such a lease by the holder of a usufruct then there is a Supreme Court decision which allowed a lease to stand. It's unclear from the decision whether the lease was registered due to an error or corruption on the part of the land officer. The rationale behind the ruling was to protect the innocent third party lessee. I have discussed this with a Thai Supreme court justice

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/769307-leased-land-from-lifes-usufructuary/

[LivinLOS]

If you add a lease and its over 3 years, say 30 years, then tax is payable

A 3 year lease does not need to be registered, and no tax

Under 3 years a 'lease' is still a civil contract.. Thats why a > 3 year one recorded on the land paper is a real right and so much stronger.

Which in turn is why businesses / bars so often have rolling 3 year contracts.

Lease != Lease in Thailand.. To westeners a contract is as legally enforceable as a lease.

[LivinLOS]

I write this only to atone for my small role in perpetuating the myth of the 30+30+30 land lease when I worked for a law firm many years ago and to help anyone confused about usufructs. Whenever this topic comes up I post, but pretty much without any expectation of it doing any good.

There is no confusion, puzzlement, ambiguity etc. by any real Thai property lawyer, judge, or property law professor that there is no right in Thai law for the holder of a usufruct to register a lease at the land office. No confusion at all. A usufruct holder should not be allowed to register a lease at the land office.

I understand that a few farang oriented law firms say there is a right in Thai law for the usufruct holder to register a lease. They are wrong. Just like they were wrong when they told you you could have a 30+30+30 year lease. I know how these things work. They are just copying each others mistake with no basis in law.

I hate the idea that some people are going to get a usufruct expecting to be able to register a thirty year lease for a substantial amount of money at some point in the future.

However, if the land office does allow such a lease by the holder of a usufruct then there is a Supreme Court decision which allowed a lease to stand. It's unclear from the decision whether the lease was registered due to an error or corruption on the part of the land officer. The rationale behind the ruling was to protect the innocent third party lessee. I have discussed this with a Thai Supreme court justice

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/769307-leased-land-from-lifes-usufructuary/

Interesting, and thanks..

It backs up what I was told on the ground too..

Edited April 5, 2016 by LivinLOS

[marquis22]

Has anyone had a usufruct done in Lampang? If so please let me know where.

[cyberfarang]

My questions.

How solid and binding is a Usufruct property agreement in Thailand regarding Farlangs? Are they worth the paper they are printed on and if the crunch came to the crunch does the law recognize these agreements as legal and binding?

Has anyone ever put these agreements to the test when a Thai girlfriend or wife has decided is time for Mr Farlang and them to part company? Or the marriage/relationship has failed or Thai partner dies?

[BB1955]

Get a yellow book. It shows you are the owner of the house (not the land, which can only be held by a Thai or a Thai company).

Best guarantee you can have.since this is registered on the chanote itself.

You can do this yourself at the local Amphur office.

I have a yellow book all it really does is say I live there , ownership of the land and house is in the wifes book . To best of my knowlege I m no where to be found on the Chanote .... Still means she dies I get 50% and a portion of the other 50% . If theres no will ... I hope your right and im wrong , another thing too if your married , have a home , make sure you register the marrage, if not , your pretty much going to be a farrang looking for a place to live if she dies or things go south .