Eating: high fat, near zero carb, grain free, mostly “paleo”

[PT4]

Eating:

• high fat
• near zero carb
• wheat free / grain free (no rice)
• mostly paleo

Anyone else doing anything similar?

Noticed so far:

+ sweat much less
+ feel less hot: air con 2º C warmer than before and still comfortable
+ not hungry every few hours
+ no afternoon “doldrums” -- no need for nap after lunch
+ gout gone
+ acid reflux gone
+ night vision clearer
+ hearing more acute
+ fasting blood sugar this morning: 85
+ blood pressure this morning: 123/70 (my age is 70)
+ at night sleeping much more soundly
+ less frequent urinating

Problems:

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- No more Thai food (no rice, no sugar, no vegetable oil).
- No more fish & chips or hamburger & French fries.
- Goodbye to Haagen-Dazs vanilla, probably forever.

​
I’m here looking for others who are going in a similar direction, specifically living in Thailand. (I’m not looking for any health or dietary advice.)

Specific to Thailand:

• Some brands of Thai coconut oil are delicious. I can drink it right out of the bottle.
• Some Thai frozen shrimp is delicious. Best tasting brand I’ve found is Shrimp Express.
• S-Pure eggs delicious and easily available. More tasty than organic eggs.​
• Excellent imported steaks easily available.
• Beef tallow available.
• Avocados with good flavor difficult to find, but possible. The best are imported from NZ. (Thailand grown avocados not worth buying.)
• Haven’t found any local fish that I like. Looking for better taste than bland Tum-Tim and Bpla-Nin. Imported lake perch/English perch is my favorite fish by far, but only found here at a restaurant, not any fish seller.

Anyone else? (I prefer private messages, but replies here okay.)

(Note: I'm not advertising any books or slimming scheme. Questions about specifics, such as "paleo", can be easily answered with Google.)

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Edited April 13, 2016 by PT4

[inbangkok]

Do you exercise or workout? This diet is interesting but I have a very difficult time working out without eating lots of carbs. I lose energy very fast.

[PT4]

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Do you exercise or workout? ... I have a very difficult time working out without eating lots of carbs. I lose energy very fast.

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​Excellent question. I suggest Googling: "athletic endurance" AND "low carb" AND "high fat". There's a lot of research on that topic.

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​I didn't mention workouts, because I don't have long enough experience to be confident of the differences. Tentatively I can say that my workouts now are slightly higher resistance than before. And I feel much more eager to workout -- doesn't feel like a "chore" that must be done. But that's all I've observed so far.

Edited April 13, 2016 by PT4

[1FinickyOne]

It has been a good weight loss tool for me, though I do get cravings or maybe better put, I can be full but not satisfied - - and I get tired of meat...

If I have a good sized pork burger w/cheese for breakfast, I do not get hungry until late in the afternoon and then usually have a salad and that's it.

When I am strict with the diet, I do lose weight - I am not a snacker, but will crave a carb snack at times and with the heat, I will crave a sugar.. just for the energy boost.

I do eat a lot of veggies and often get the feeling that a lot of meat is not healthy...

[bikerlou47]

I have been on a similar diet for 5 years ! Love it!

[PT4]

It has been a good weight loss tool for me, though I do get cravings or maybe better put, I can be full but not satisfied - - and I get tired of meat...

​Thank you, Ken, for that post. Encouraging to know about your weight loss; none for me, yet.

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​Yes, I get tired of meat, too, so I'm searching for a tasty fish that's available here.

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​"Full but not satisfied." Happens to me, too. I take a gulp of coconut oil (2-3 tablespoons, or 2 tablespoons of un-salted butter. Nowhere near as tasty as 2 handfuls of "Kettle Cooked Potato Chips", but do feel fully satisfied for several hours.

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[1FinickyOne]

I never was a potato chip and pretzel type snacker, but a good bowl of any carbs, spaghetti etc.. mashed potatoes.. would top off any meal. Though much of it, I think is emotional, it must be because if I wait a while and forget about it, the cravings pass...

How long have you been doing this? I find it only takes a couple of days before I assume I am in ketosis and then the weight will drop off relatively easily if I can keep the carbs very low... I do not worry too much about the carbs in spinach and cabbage and such...

I do miss the fruits too...

[PT4]

​How long have you been doing this? I find it only takes a couple of days before I assume I am in ketosis and then the weight will drop off relatively easily if I can keep the carbs very low.

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​Again, that's very encouraging about your weight loss.

I've been doing this on-and-off for four years. Started with "Wheat Belly" (book by Dr. William O. Davis) and went on from there.

By "on-and-off" I mean one week on, one week off, but still careful about food at all times, such as no pizza, no macaroni & cheese, no chicken pot pie, no fried bananas rolled in sesame seeds from the street cart. But even after an "on" period of 7 days I don't lose any weight. Feel great, more endurance, plus other benefits above, but belt still on the same notch as before. Now trying to extend "on" periods to months, maybe years.

[1FinickyOne]

I would think you would lose weight after 2-3 days... I have thought about "off and on" on a regular schedule. Usually the first week is pretty good for losing weight... then can level off and go slower... I have a problem with indulgences...

I never understood about "emotional" eating, but during the 8 years when both my parents had dementia, I guess that was what I was doing. eating when I was not hungry just for the opportunity to have some pleasure to counteract the misery... And I put on a lot of weight during this period...

oh well.

Variety is also big for me and somewhat limited here - living in baan nork - countryside... where in Thailand are you? Good supermarkets nearby?

[Airalee]

I also eat a hflc diet and other than weight loss, I find that I am more "clear headed", my skin is clearer, don't get tired in the afternoons etc.

I'm not sure a week on/ week off plan would actually work as it usually takes about 1-2 weeks for me to even get into ketosis (based on the keto urine strips). The initial weight loss is water weight for the first couple weeks and after that, the fat melts off. If I go off the diet, the weight comes back on just as quickly.

I exercise about 5 days a week in the gym for about an hour at a time (1/2 cardio 1/2 weights) and have no issues with fatigue while working out.

Many people have asked me how I lost so much weight (6'4" 220lbs down to 195) and when I tell them to give up carbs they tell me that it is impossible for them to do so.

One of my favorite "keto quotes" comes from the Economics/finance blogger Karl Denninger... "You can't outrun your fork"

[PT4]

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I am more "clear headed", my skin is clearer ...

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​Thank you, Airalee, for those details. And I agree about "clear head" and "clear skin".

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​I'm not sure a week on/ week off plan would actually work as it usually takes about 1-2 weeks for me to even get into ketosis (based on the keto urine strips).

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​1-2 weeks, eh? You may have hit on the cause of the problem I'm facing with this: no weight loss. I've never used keto strips; will buy and try.

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Many people ... when I tell them to give up carbs they tell me that it is impossible for them to do so.

Especially the Thais and rice!

Edited April 14, 2016 by PT4

[PT4]

Variety is also big for me and somewhat limited here - living in baan nork - countryside... where in Thailand are you? Good supermarkets nearby?

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​"Variety" is an important topic, rarely mentioned. Thank you, Ken, for bringing it up.

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​Over four years, I've learned that seeking variety is my nemesis. When I give in to cravings for variety, then I slide "off the wagon" for a week. When I limit variety to just a few foods, then much easier to stay on course. A recent change in tactics for me is to severely limit variety: the same few foods day after day. Not easy, but gets the best results.

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​Here in Bangkok, everything needed is easily available, with delivery to my front door from Tesco, Tops, Paleo Robbie, Passion Delivery, and Food Glorious. Up country your biggest problem is probably finding good quality beef. Passion Delivery will deliver top quality steaks, anywhere in Thailand, by EMS.

[PT4]

In a post above, Ken24 brought up the topic of variety. It is worth consideration. I think (but am not sure), that “variety” may be a negative factor working against maintaining a healthy diet.

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I’ve read about healthy diets among isolated and primitive people. “Healthy” meaning long life with low rates of disease, especially heart disease. Examples are remote villages in Japan, primitive tribes in Africa, Arctic Eskimos. I never thought about it before, but a common factor in all of those is *lack* of variety in their diets.

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It just occurred to me that we can see an example of that right here in Thailand. A common Thai greeting is, “Did you eat rice?” As a way to practice Thai language, I take the next step and ask, “What did you eat?” I never thought about it before now, but, for country women with slender, lithe bodies and clear skin the answer is almost always the same: som-tam. Day after day; som-tam. I don’t want to debate the merits of som-tam here, but the essential point is, no variety.

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Hmmm…

[JHolmesJr]

OP what you describe sounds very much like the Ketogenic Diet…high fat and animal protein…low to no carb, zero sugar etc...

[Airalee]

I understand the lack of variety but try not to take it too far. My reasoning is that if I did, it would be easier to just get sick of it all and give up.

I know that there are certain foods I can eat every day and never tire of them...such as a huge salad with chicken, bacon, shredded sharp cheddar cheese (no tomatoes) but one of my other staples...blue diamond smokehouse almonds (I bring them from the US as the ones in Thailand are bland)...I'm getting a bit tired of them. I probably eat 4-6 ounces of almonds a day. For sweets, the thing I miss the most, I will either eat an Atkins bar which satisfies the craving but doesn't spike the blood sugar making me want to eat the whole box and for ice cream, Breyers has a "carb smart" line which does the job. I'm gonna have to see if Tops or Rimping (Chiang mai) would start carrying them.

If I have a cheat day, which is usually once or twice a month, it won't be with normal "meal" food as most meals can be the same and all I'm giving up is the rice/pasta/potato. So my cheats are usually sugar such as a pound of gummy bears or something like that. After not eating sugar for a while it becomes obvious when I do eat it that it is addicting and I'm hungry again an hour later.

I rarely drink so that's not an issue.

I have never had a steak in Thailand as the restaurant prices are crazy for a good NY or Filet and the tiny two burner electric cooktops that all the condos seem to have just won't do a good job on a steak. Barbecues aren't allowed at the condos. I just make sure to get my fill when I'm back in the States,

Edited April 14, 2016 by Airalee

[PT4]

OP what you describe sounds very much like the Ketogenic Diet…high fat and animal protein…low to no carb, zero sugar etc...

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​Yes, that's one name for it. Other names are "paleo diet", "wheat free" (which is far more than just no wheat), and "Eskimo diet" first described by Vilhjalmur Stefansson in his book, "The Fat of the Land" based on his arctic explorations from 1906 to 1918. Another popular name is "The Banting Diet" from a pamphlet entitled, "A Letter on Corpulence" written by Englishman William Banting in 1864. Lots of names, same fundamental strategy.

[Airalee]

OP what you describe sounds very much like the Ketogenic Diethigh fat and animal proteinlow to no carb, zero sugar etc...

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​Yes, that's one name for it. Other names are "paleo diet", "wheat free" (which is far more than just no wheat), and "Eskimo diet" first described by Vilhjalmur Stefansson in his book, "The Fat of the Land" based on his arctic explorations from 1906 to 1918. Another popular name is "The Banting Diet" from a pamphlet entitled, "A Letter on Corpulence" written by Englishman William Banting in 1864. Lots of names, same fundamental strategy.

They're similar and have overlaps but aren't the same. For example, paleo allows fruit and "nuts" in general even though some nuts are higher carb than others, Where keto shoots for ultra low carb. Now that I think about it, I haven't had a piece of fruit (or any juice) in over a year. Paleo also says no dairy but on a keto diet I eat cheese and lots of butter. I would guess that 70% of my calories come from fat.

[PT4]

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I understand the lack of variety but try not to take it too far. My reasoning is that if I did, it would be easier to just get sick of it all and give up.

​Your thoughtful comments are very helpful. Thank you for posting.

About variety, I understand the point to "not take it too far." However, I find myself starting to think exactly the opposite. The "farther" I take it (towards no variety), the easier it is.
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​one of my other staples...blue diamond smokehouse almonds (I bring them from the US as the ones in Thailand are bland)... I probably eat 4-6 ounces of almonds a day.

I, too, was powerless over Blue Diamond Smokehouse almonds. Until I read the ingredients:

​Almonds, Vegetable Oil (Canola, Safflower and/or Sunflower), Salt, Corn Maltodextrin, Natural Hickory Smoke Flavor, Yeast, Hydrolyzed Corn and Soy Protein and Natural Flavors.

Several of those are euphemisms for Monosodium Glutamate (MSG). In order words, ingredients designed to make you want to eat more and more.
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After not eating sugar for a while it becomes obvious when I do eat it that it is addicting and I'm hungry again an hour later.

Very good point, and I've experienced that, too. Including natural sugar in fruit juices -- so delicious in Thailand.

I have never had a steak in Thailand as the restaurant prices are crazy for a good NY or Filet and the tiny two burner electric cooktops that all the condos seem to have just won't do a good job on a steak. Barbecues aren't allowed at the condos. I just make sure to get my fill when I'm back in the States,

Another good point. There may be salvation:

1.) In Korat and Bangkok, Chok Chai Farm Steakhouse serves imported steaks at moderate prices. Not cheap, but moderate.

2.) Top quality imported steaks are available from the delivery services mentioned above.

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​3.) My condo, also, doesn't allow charcoal barbecues so I bought an electric grill at Home Pro to use on the balcony. Conventional wisdom among BBQers is that very high heat is necessary to sear the steak to hold in the juices, but there is disagreement about that. Nathan Myhrvold, author of "Modernist Cuisine", recommends cooking steaks slowly, on very low heat, with a fast searing only at the very end of cooking, not at the beginning. I've tried that both on the electric grill and in a fry pan on the electric induction plate. The grill, out in the fresh air, gives better flavor. I'd say slow cooking is the new secret to a tender and juicy, steak -- in Thailand! (But still with imported meat)

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4.) Sizzler restaurants -- in most large shopping malls in Thailand -- offer a NY Strip that I've found to be consistently tender and flavorful. Too many other dangerous temptations there, so I don't go often, but I do recommend it.

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Edited April 14, 2016 by PT4

[JHolmesJr]

I saw a doco on Keto where this guys basically ate steaks, eggs, sausages all fried in butter…and tempered it with leafy greens.

He did lose weight and his cholesterol went up but he claimed it was only the "good kind".

That was a bit worrying because theres no point looking thin as a model only to die of a massive heart attack.

Im trying to incorporate what works for me from Keto without going to extremes.

For a long time Ive cut out all refined foods and snacks, refined sugar, wheat…cut down on fruits…no starchy vegetables.

Just chicken, fish, salads, fresh unsweetened yoghurt, lentils and other legumes (not too much)…and red cargo rice maybe once or twice a week with a portion no bigger than my clenched fist. My only guilty treat once a week is some amaranth porridge with almond milk, sweetened with a bit of low GI coconut sugar

Surprisingly good results….lost 12-13 kg gradually with no loss of energy, or weird mood swings.

Edited April 14, 2016 by JHolmesJr

[beammeup]

I've been on a keto diet for 2 months. Feel great I still have 1/2 spoon of palm sugar in my coffee in the morning but thats about it. Lots of greens coconut oil, butter and red palm oil. My wife cooks thai food with olive oil and instead of rice I steam cauliflower and mash it up.

[PT4]

I've been on a keto diet for 2 months. ... instead of rice I steam cauliflower and mash it up.

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​Good idea!

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[1FinickyOne]

Yes, I agree about the variety contributing to my downfall - that is always the first step - what harm can some fruit do? or something like that and the next thing I know, I am back to my old habits of eating whatever I like... and there is a surprising amount of variety on a paleo but I have always been one who hates limitations... it violates how I have lived my life - and sure, I can give you a hundred rationalizations too...

I eat almost no beef - I live in a small village and there is fresh pork around all the time - 2 trucks in the village, one organic.

And a good way to learn Thai - "kin kao" also implies "rice with.. something"

[1FinickyOne]

I've been on a keto diet for 2 months. Feel great I still have 1/2 spoon of palm sugar in my coffee in the morning but thats about it. Lots of greens coconut oil, butter and red palm oil. My wife cooks thai food with olive oil and instead of rice I steam cauliflower and mash it up.

I will try the cauliflower... I have been using a lot of cabbage for the same purpose, putting some pork and other veggies on top and melting in some cheese...

And to the poster looking for steak - eat the pork steaks - pork in Thailand is pretty good and beef here is awful.

PT - thanks - interesting and helpful topic.

[sawadee1947]

there are many freaks around......Tell me, WHY are you eating like that? What you want to achieve with this style? (you call it "diet")

Who told you it's a "diet"?

I'm very interested

[tonray]

Cave men did NOT eat a high fat diet. Any anumals that would have been available to them would likely have been very lean and sinewy. It irkse to mix marketing with reality.

[CM4Me]

I have recently started on a Low-carb (LC) diet after seeing a respected documentary and my own follow-up research. In a week I have lost about 3 kgs.

So now all carbs are out – mainly bread, potatoes, sugar, rice, cookies/biscuits, pasta and some fruits, vegetables, nuts seeds which are high in carbs, and all Low-fat/reduced-fat products (the fats have been replaced by sugar to make them more edible).

Full strength dairy products, like Milk, butter, cheese, yoghurt, etc, are all OK,

Fruits high in carbs are Bananas (20g/100g), Grapes (16g/100g)

Vegetables high in carbs (mainly grown undergrown) are Sweet Potato (17g/100g), Potato (15g/100g), Parsnip (13g/100g).

Vegetables low in carbs with 3g/100g or less are Spinach, Lettuce, Avocados, Asparagus, Olives, Tomatoes, Eggplant, Cabbage Cucumber and Zucchini.

Nuts to be avoided are Cashew (@27g) and Pistachio (@18)

Some alcohol in moderation is OK, but beer is out. Can consume some spirits; ones that are distilled, ie whisky, brandy, gin, rum (unflavoured), and Vodka. However Coke, Pepsi, Tonic and all very high in carbs, but Coke Zero and Soda Water (perhaps with a twist of Lime or Lemon) are carb free. For wine Sauvignon Blanc and Pinot Noir have the lowest carb rating.

My understanding is that for a low carb diet one should not consume more than 20g carbs/day. For a moderate diet the range is 20-50g/day

If one does some searching one can find some tasty recipes for LC diet, some of which I use are Beef Stroganoff with Blue Cheese, Asparagus Soup, Cauliflower Rice, Crispbread

[HooHaa]

In a post above, Ken24 brought up the topic of variety. It is worth consideration. I think (but am not sure), that “variety” may be a negative factor working against maintaining a healthy diet.

​

I’ve read about healthy diets among isolated and primitive people. “Healthy” meaning long life with low rates of disease, especially heart disease. Examples are remote villages in Japan, primitive tribes in Africa, Arctic Eskimos. I never thought about it before, but a common factor in all of those is *lack* of variety in their diets.

​

It just occurred to me that we can see an example of that right here in Thailand. A common Thai greeting is, “Did you eat rice?” As a way to practice Thai language, I take the next step and ask, “What did you eat?” I never thought about it before now, but, for country women with slender, lithe bodies and clear skin the answer is almost always the same: som-tam. Day after day; som-tam. I don’t want to debate the merits of som-tam here, but the essential point is, no variety.

​

Hmmm…

som tam always struck me as a sort of purgative.

eat a mess of very sicy somtam, spend the next hour in the bathroom. no wonder some thai women cant gain weight

[cumgranosalum]

What about the elephant in the room? Do you drink smoke take drugs???

As for diet the best is whgast the medical profession refers to as FOOD...... Anything else is just nonsense.

As for the OPs observations, it should be remembered that the p!urasl of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.

Rush to your nearest pharmacy and ask for a reality pill.

[Airalee]

Why do I eat this way? Because as I got older, I found that even though I ate a healthy balanced diet and exercised i still started putting on weight. Sure, I could chalk it up to getting older and should just accept it. And I probably would have...until I saw someone who I hadn't seen in a while that went from fat to fit and credited it to eating a ketogenic diet. I couldn't change in him. Then, another person I knew started espousing the benefits of a low carb diet. So...I did a little research on line and saw lots of people claiming that it helped them with various ailments. So...I shrugged my shoulders and gave it a try. And it worked. My skin was clearer, I lost 25+ pounds, I wasn't tired in the afternoon as much, I had more energy, my joints didn't ache anymore. A family friend who is a Pathologist thinks it is a healthy way to eat as does my personal Physician at UCLA.

I use the term "diet" very loosely as its not so much a "diet" as it is a lifestyle change. And one that works for me. It's not a caloric restriction diet (grapefruit diet etc) that leaves "dieters" rollercoasting their way to obesity. It wasn't "marketed" towards me. I've never read a "diet" book (and don't believe in self help books in general) and I don't watch television so I can't tell you if it is something that is advertised. I came across it purely by coincidence and word of mouth. I don't know what cavemen ate nor do I care. It wasn't easy for the first 10 days or so (keto flu) but after that, I don't really even think about it. I don't push it on anybody else either...eat what works for you.

If that makes me a "freak"... I guess I can live with that.

[Airalee]

I quit smoking (didn't gain weight either). Average about 1-2 drinks a month. Drugs? In Thailand? That would be foolish.