Biden: 'Overwhelming frustration' with Israeli govt

[Scott]

Inflammatory posts and replies removed.

[Grouse]

As Christian influence declines in the US...so goes the desire to support Israel against the many Arab states that would destroy the nation and kill all its people...

The Palestinians have proven over the years that they are not negotiating in good faith...have no desire to make peace with Israel...and will not be satisfied until Israel is removed from the face to the earth...

This is nothing new...this war goes back to Biblical times...not going to end...anytime soon...

More codswallop from you.

Biblical times? Ridiculous

1948 more like

[Trouble]

As Christian influence declines in the US...so goes the desire to support Israel against the many Arab states that would destroy the nation and kill all its people...

The Palestinians have proven over the years that they are not negotiating in good faith...have no desire to make peace with Israel...and will not be satisfied until Israel is removed from the face to the earth...

This is nothing new...this war goes back to Biblical times...not going to end...anytime soon...

War does not go back to Biblical times. Jews, Christians, Muslims lived mostly at peace during the Ottoman Empire and things only became unraveled after WWI with the rise of Zionism and interference of the British and others in the affairs of the region.

[canthai55]

The Jews are not the problem in Israel, the Zionists are and they are not all Jews.

Hilarious.

The old we don't hate Jews, we hate Zionists card.

That's a crock.

Every Israel topic here, the Jew hatred is revealed in a CRYSTAL CLEAR way.

You really need to take a look at your attitude toward anyone who voices displeasure with the Israeli governments actions. Along with many other posters on this Forum. I have read some well reasoned, thoughtful, and respectful posts wherein the Government of Israel has been taken to task. These are valid concerns. By pulling the "Hate the Jews" card every time you hear it shows a distinct lack of understanding of the problems, and moreover, how many other people view these actions. To Tar every attack with the hatred card is neither true, fair, or necessary. I do not hate anybody. Why - When you Hate, you Become that which you Hate.

[Ulysses G.]

You really need to take a look at your attitude toward anyone who voices displeasure with the Israeli governments actions.

There may be moderate voices criticizing Israel somewhere, but not on this forum. There is a bunch of hard core anti-Semites that post obsessively and it is not hard to read between the lines and see where they are really coming from. Some come right out and admit their hatred of Jews and others deny it, but constantly go along with anti-Semitic ideas and "like" some very suspicious posts.

[johna]

I'm sure Biden will be called onto AIPAC's carpet for these outrageous comments

[Morch]

J'street are a Soros funded bunch of barely concealed BDS supporters. It won't be long before any Jew who still desires an independent Israel will feel obliged to vote Republican.

http://www.jstreetexposed.com/j-street-s-anti-israel-positions.html

The fact Biden spoke to Jstreet is hugely revealing of the current U.S stance.

In the long standing tradition of TVF, any opinion not totally conforming to held views will be vilified

http://jstreet.org/page/mythsandfacts/home

[Morch]

Hear, hear,Joe.

I could have written his speech for him. It's exactly what I said yesterday on another thread.

Israel is painting itself into a corner and a one state solution.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/910850-just-announced-state-of-palestine-passports/#entry10650806

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/910850-just-announced-state-of-palestine-passports/page-2#entry10651814

Maybe he reads TV. Maybe we just happen to concur because it's the truth about Israel that the whole world is becoming more aware of.

Delusions of grandeur.

And no, you couldn't. Note how Biden's speech refers to shared blame, acknowledges Palestinian side's faults - not things likely to appear in your posts. And then there's the lack the hateful, inflammatory rhetoric......

[Ulysses G.]

And no, you couldn't. Note how Biden's speech refers to shared blame, acknowledges Palestinian side's faults - not things likely to appear in your posts. And then there's the lack the hateful, inflammatory rhetoric......

And the lack of highly inaccurate, fake "history". Biden might be naïve and short-sighted, but he is basically honest.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

The US says the same thing all the time but does nothing. The world knows enough about Israel's long and continuous trail of crimes against Palestine but nothing changes and nothing is done. Hey USA, enact some sanctions against Israel if you mean what you say. Another bunch of lip service. What are you afraid of? Do they really own you financially as is rumored in some circles?

But no sanctions against Palestinians, of course!!!!!?? They've never committed a terrorist act, they've never sent '000's of rockets into Israel and they've always hankered after peace of course???!!! But you're not biased, of course?????

There are various USA sanctions and economic measures in place directed at the Palestinians. Mostly related to Hamas, but not all.

[dexterm]

As Christian influence declines in the US...so goes the desire to support Israel against the many Arab states that would destroy the nation and kill all its people...

The Palestinians have proven over the years that they are not negotiating in good faith...have no desire to make peace with Israel...and will not be satisfied until Israel is removed from the face to the earth...

This is nothing new...this war goes back to Biblical times...not going to end...anytime soon...

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords. Israel has never reciprocated recognizing the right of Palestinians to self determination in their own viable state. Instead they have simply stolen more land, built more colonies, and dispossessed more Palestinians.

It's pretty clear which side is stonewalling, and that is why Joe Biden is overwhelmingly frustrated with the current israeli government.

[Morch]

Well said, Biden.

What has he actually said?? Both sides are to blame!!!! But he's wrong, of course!!

Are the Israelis committing any terrorist attacks in the Palestinian areas?? Did the Israelis not forcibly evict their own settlers from Gaza about 10 year ago now, with nothing in return??

Are the Israelis building tunnels under Gaza in order to commit terrorist acts against Gazan civilians???

Israel always condemn terror attacks wherever they occur and the Palestinians celebrate them????

Have the Palestinians even recognized the Israeli right to a State, agreed by the UN in 1948? There charter still states that they want to push all the Israelis into the sea!!! Now, honestly, is this the way to peace??

There are attacks against Palestinians carried out by Israelis (IDF and illegal settlers). There were even attacks defined by Israeli authorities themselves as terrorism.

The Israelis unilaterally pulled out from the Gaza Strip. There was no agreement, and no implication that this would bring about a major change in Palestinian attitudes.

From the Palestinian point of view (and mostly global point of view) the Hamas tunnels are not even on-par with the destruction visited on the Gaza Strip. Not getting into the whole who-started-it, who's-to-blame thing again. Just pointing out that both Palestinians and Israelis are veterans of inflicting pain on each other.

Biden's speech actually referred to Palestinian leadership's reactions to terrorist attacks. It is indeed unfortunate that they do not have a leadership capable of making a clear moral stand on this issue. On the other hand, the Israeli government does not generally condemn attacks by illegal settlers, unless a certain threshold of violence (or publicity) is breached.

The question of Palestinian recognition of Israel is complex and been dealt with, at length, in many previous topics. There is no clear cut answer for that - it depends on which Palestinian leadership is referred to and at which point in time. This also got to do with definitions of recognition, on which there are certain disagreements.

Overall, the speech was rather balanced and realistic.

[Ulysses G.]

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords.

Nonsense. Arafat is DEAD and almost no one believes he really wanted peace anyway. Israel OKed the 1948 UN Deal that would have given the Palestinians their own country 7 decades ago. THAT is recognizing the right of Palestinians to self determination in their own viable state. Unfortunately, the Palestinians TURNED IT DOWN.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[DeaconJohn]

As Christian influence declines in the US...so goes the desire to support Israel against the many Arab states that would destroy the nation and kill all its people...

The Palestinians have proven over the years that they are not negotiating in good faith...have no desire to make peace with Israel...and will not be satisfied until Israel is removed from the face to the earth...

This is nothing new...this war goes back to Biblical times...not going to end...anytime soon...

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords. Israel has never reciprocated recognizing the right of Palestinians to self determination in their own viable state. Instead they have simply stolen more land, built more colonies, and dispossessed more Palestinians.

It's pretty clear which side is stonewalling, and that is why Joe Biden is overwhelmingly frustrated with the current israeli government.

Thanks for that concise and factual reply.

You never lose your cool, even in the face of the most offensive personal insults.

As is inevitably the case with arguments grounded in a dishonest agenda, invective is what they quickly resort to.

[Morch]

As Christian influence declines in the US...so goes the desire to support Israel against the many Arab states that would destroy the nation and kill all its people...

The Palestinians have proven over the years that they are not negotiating in good faith...have no desire to make peace with Israel...and will not be satisfied until Israel is removed from the face to the earth...

This is nothing new...this war goes back to Biblical times...not going to end...anytime soon...

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords. Israel has never reciprocated recognizing the right of Palestinians to self determination in their own viable state. Instead they have simply stolen more land, built more colonies, and dispossessed more Palestinians.

It's pretty clear which side is stonewalling, and that is why Joe Biden is overwhelmingly frustrated with the current israeli government.

As if this nonsense was not shown to be inaccurate multiple times on these topics.

Arafat promised a lot of things, and was less bent on delivering. The required changes in the Palestinian covenant were delayed for years over many a pretext. Even those changes made were contested and the offshoot is that it remains a less than clear issue.

The bogus "Israel has never reciprocated" attempts to imply that Israel was obligated to do so under agreement. Not the case. The usual glossing over the creation of the Palestinian Authority - which did happen via Israel's cooperation.

The Palestinians had their share of saying "no" when they could have said "yes". Trying to paint another picture is misleading, if expected.

Biden's frustration was related to news alluding to Israeli government allowing further construction in the West Bank. This was quickly denied.

EDIT: Here's one of them times when this was brought up. There were others

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/860733-israel-launches-airstrikes-on-targets-in-gaza/?p=9938708

Edited April 20, 2016 by Morch

[DeaconJohn]

As Christian influence declines in the US...so goes the desire to support Israel against the many Arab states that would destroy the nation and kill all its people...

The Palestinians have proven over the years that they are not negotiating in good faith...have no desire to make peace with Israel...and will not be satisfied until Israel is removed from the face to the earth...

This is nothing new...this war goes back to Biblical times...not going to end...anytime soon...

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords. Israel has never reciprocated recognizing the right of Palestinians to self determination in their own viable state. Instead they have simply stolen more land, built more colonies, and dispossessed more Palestinians.

It's pretty clear which side is stonewalling, and that is why Joe Biden is overwhelmingly frustrated with the current israeli government.

As if this nonsense was not shown to be inaccurate multiple times on these topics.

Arafat promised a lot of things, and was less bent on delivering. The required changes in the Palestinian covenant were delayed for years over many a pretext. Even those changes made were contested and the offshoot is that it remains a less than clear issue.

The bogus "Israel has never reciprocated" attempts to imply that Israel was obligated to do so under agreement. Not the case. The usual glossing over the creation of the Palestinian Authority - which did happen via Israel's cooperation.

The Palestinians had their share of saying "no" when they could have said "yes". Trying to paint another picture is misleading, if expected.

Biden's frustration was related to news alluding to Israeli government allowing further construction in the West Bank. This was quickly denied.

Shown to be inaccurate by whom?

The resident Zionists on this forum?

[Gary A]

Israel deserves and needs all the help the US can give them. Biden is a moron and his boss moron still refuse to call terrorists terrorists. Worse than that, they think you can negotiate with terrorists. I would like to see Obama and Biden go to the Middle East and negotiate first hand with the lunatics.

[Ulysses G.]

Shown to be inaccurate by whom?

The resident Zionists on this forum?

By Morch, who is FAR MORE knowledgeable and FAR LESS biased than anyone else on the forum concerning Middle East matters.

[dexterm]

As Christian influence declines in the US...so goes the desire to support Israel against the many Arab states that would destroy the nation and kill all its people...

The Palestinians have proven over the years that they are not negotiating in good faith...have no desire to make peace with Israel...and will not be satisfied until Israel is removed from the face to the earth...

This is nothing new...this war goes back to Biblical times...not going to end...anytime soon...

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords. Israel has never reciprocated recognizing the right of Palestinians to self determination in their own viable state. Instead they have simply stolen more land, built more colonies, and dispossessed more Palestinians.

It's pretty clear which side is stonewalling, and that is why Joe Biden is overwhelmingly frustrated with the current israeli government.

As if this nonsense was not shown to be inaccurate multiple times on these topics.

Arafat promised a lot of things, and was less bent on delivering. The required changes in the Palestinian covenant were delayed for years over many a pretext. Even those changes made were contested and the offshoot is that it remains a less than clear issue.

The bogus "Israel has never reciprocated" attempts to imply that Israel was obligated to do so under agreement. Not the case. The usual glossing over the creation of the Palestinian Authority - which did happen via Israel's cooperation.

The Palestinians had their share of saying "no" when they could have said "yes". Trying to paint another picture is misleading, if expected.

Biden's frustration was related to news alluding to Israeli government allowing further construction in the West Bank. This was quickly denied.

EDIT: Here's one of them times when this was brought up. There were others

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/860733-israel-launches-airstrikes-on-targets-in-gaza/?p=9938708

How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?

Netanyahu’s new 'Jewish state' mantra negates the fact that Palestinians recognized Israel more than twenty years ago. They’re still waiting for Israel to recognize Palestine.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.579701

Yes, you are quite right. Israel really pulled the wool over Arafat's eyes at the Oslo Accords. Arafat sincerely wanted peace. Israel simply wanted a smokescreen and time to create more facts on the ground.

Israel got plenty from the Palestinians, but the Palestinians did not get much in return, simply recognition of the PLO and broken promises to adhere to the spirit of UN resolution 242.

"Arafat renounced the claim of the Palestinian people to 80 percent of historic Palestine and agreed to postpone negotiations regarding the final status of Jerusalem, the Occupied Territories, water, sovereignty, security, the illegal Israeli settlements and the right of return for Palestinian refugees to the last stage of the “peace process”.

No guarantee was given by Israel regarding the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and statehood. Israel did not renounce control over the Palestinian territories it had occupied in 1967, nor did it agree to withdraw troops or dismantle the colonies it had been building since the 1970s."

http://livefromoccupiedpalestine.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-olso-accords-farce-of-oslo-twenty.html

Edited April 20, 2016 by dexterm

[Thorgal]

I'm sure Biden will be called onto AIPAC's carpet for these outrageous comments

Check out Bidens' speech at latest AIPAC conference on 20th March 2016 how he praised the US commitment and support to Israel. It's available on YouTube.

Spot the difference with his 'sudden negative' comments from OP to a more than biased Trojan horse media outlet.

Foreign US political relationship contradicts various US and international laws.

One of them is :

"Section 502B of the US Foreign Assistance Act stipulates that “no security assistance may be provided to any country the government of which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights” and section 4 of the Arms Export Control Act authorizes the supply of US military equipment and training only for lawful purposes of internal security, “legitimate self-defense,” or participation in United Nations peacekeeping operations or other operations consistent with the UN Charter."

Biden didn't apply his own constitutional laws in exercise of his diplomatic function. He just gave a verbal rhetoric...

Edited April 20, 2016 by Thorgal

[HLover]

You wonder why US keeps invading ME countries, presumably for Israel, must have a powerful lobby, as what other country would tolerate body bags coming home to implement another countries foreign policies?

The US media censors all video of body bags and flag draped coffins, so the general public remains aloof of the real cost of war.

Hence the "yee haw, bomb em all" mentality.

[Gary A]

If the terrorist lunatics who hate Israel would simply leave them alone, peace would prevail. I also don't like to hear this BS about the Jews stealing their land. What have the lunatics done with the land that they occupy. Do you see any farms, gardens or manufacturing? It is quite a task to make gardens in the desert but Israel is doing it.

[dexterm]

If the terrorist lunatics who hate Israel would simply leave them alone, peace would prevail. I also don't like to hear this BS about the Jews stealing their land. What have the lunatics done with the land that they occupy. Do you see any farms, gardens or manufacturing? It is quite a task to make gardens in the desert but Israel is doing it.

Israel stymies the Palestinian economy in multiple ways.

You are probably just trolling, but think "Jaffa" oranges, and how Israel came by that industry and its name, and what it did to the original Palestinian farmers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_orange

[Ulysses G.]

If the terrorist lunatics who hate Israel would simply leave them alone, peace would prevail. I also don't like to hear this BS about the Jews stealing their land. What have the lunatics done with the land that they occupy. Do you see any farms, gardens or manufacturing? It is quite a task to make gardens in the desert but Israel is doing it.

Israel stymies the Palestinian economy in multiple ways.

You are probably just trolling, but think "Jaffa" oranges, and how Israel came by that industry and its name, and what it did to the original Palestinian farmers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_orange

According to YOUR link, the Jews IMPROVED the Jaffa orange. Situation normal.

The Jews who immigrated to Palestine with the First Aliyah introduced cultivation methods that spurred the Jaffa orange industry. According to the Hope Simpson Enquiry of 1930.

"The cultivation of the orange, introduced by the Arabs before the commencement of Jewish settlement, has developed to a very great extent in consequence of that settlement. There is no doubt that the pitch of perfection to which the technique of plantation and cultivation of the orange and grapefruit have been brought in Palestine is due to the scientific methods of the Jewish agriculturist."[10]

Edited April 20, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[Morch]

As Christian influence declines in the US...so goes the desire to support Israel against the many Arab states that would destroy the nation and kill all its people...

The Palestinians have proven over the years that they are not negotiating in good faith...have no desire to make peace with Israel...and will not be satisfied until Israel is removed from the face to the earth...

This is nothing new...this war goes back to Biblical times...not going to end...anytime soon...

Yasser Arafat recognized Israel's right to exist as far back as 1988, and repeated it in writing in 1993 at the Oslo Accords. Israel has never reciprocated recognizing the right of Palestinians to self determination in their own viable state. Instead they have simply stolen more land, built more colonies, and dispossessed more Palestinians.

It's pretty clear which side is stonewalling, and that is why Joe Biden is overwhelmingly frustrated with the current israeli government.

As if this nonsense was not shown to be inaccurate multiple times on these topics.

Arafat promised a lot of things, and was less bent on delivering. The required changes in the Palestinian covenant were delayed for years over many a pretext. Even those changes made were contested and the offshoot is that it remains a less than clear issue.

The bogus "Israel has never reciprocated" attempts to imply that Israel was obligated to do so under agreement. Not the case. The usual glossing over the creation of the Palestinian Authority - which did happen via Israel's cooperation.

The Palestinians had their share of saying "no" when they could have said "yes". Trying to paint another picture is misleading, if expected.

Biden's frustration was related to news alluding to Israeli government allowing further construction in the West Bank. This was quickly denied.

EDIT: Here's one of them times when this was brought up. There were others

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/860733-israel-launches-airstrikes-on-targets-in-gaza/?p=9938708

How Many Times Must the Palestinians Recognize Israel?

Netanyahu’s new 'Jewish state' mantra negates the fact that Palestinians recognized Israel more than twenty years ago. They’re still waiting for Israel to recognize Palestine.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.579701

Yes, you are quite right. Israel really pulled the wool over Arafat's eyes at the Oslo Accords. Arafat sincerely wanted peace. Israel simply wanted a smokescreen and time to create more facts on the ground.

Israel got plenty from the Palestinians, but the Palestinians did not get much in return, simply recognition of the PLO and broken promises to adhere to the spirit of UN resolution 242.

"Arafat renounced the claim of the Palestinian people to 80 percent of historic Palestine and agreed to postpone negotiations regarding the final status of Jerusalem, the Occupied Territories, water, sovereignty, security, the illegal Israeli settlements and the right of return for Palestinian refugees to the last stage of the “peace process”.

No guarantee was given by Israel regarding the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, national independence and statehood. Israel did not renounce control over the Palestinian territories it had occupied in 1967, nor did it agree to withdraw troops or dismantle the colonies it had been building since the 1970s."

http://livefromoccupiedpalestine.blogspot.com/2013/09/the-olso-accords-farce-of-oslo-twenty.html

That's pretty much it, isn't it? The Palestinians "recognize" Israel, only for this "recognition" to be nullified by this or that pretext. There wouldn't be all that many instances and variants of "recognition" otherwise. Continually ignoring Palestinian statements denouncing such recognition ain't gonna change reality. At the same time, it is true that Netanyahu's government moved the goal posts some with the additional demand for Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state.

The statement that "Arafat sincerely wanted peace" is another fantasy story. There were more than one occasion (to put it mildly) where Arafat expressed contrary sentiments, delayed and obfuscated negotiations, same goes for implementation of agreements. Israel did not trick Arafat into anything, the conditions were right there. More fantasies.

Of course, some people may think that the Palestinians would be better off now without the Oslo Accords being signed, although it is rarely demonstrated exactly how.

[Morch]

I'm sure Biden will be called onto AIPAC's carpet for these outrageous comments

Check out Bidens' speech at latest AIPAC conference on 20th March 2016 how he praised the US commitment and support to Israel. It's available on YouTube.

Spot the difference with his 'sudden negative' comments from OP to a more than biased Trojan horse media outlet.

Foreign US political relationship contradicts various US and international laws.

One of them is :

"Section 502B of the US Foreign Assistance Act stipulates that “no security assistance may be provided to any country the government of which engages in a consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights” and section 4 of the Arms Export Control Act authorizes the supply of US military equipment and training only for lawful purposes of internal security, “legitimate self-defense,” or participation in United Nations peacekeeping operations or other operations consistent with the UN Charter."

Biden didn't apply his own constitutional laws in exercise of his diplomatic function. He just gave a verbal rhetoric...

ImageUploadedByThaivisa Connect1461123365.565141.jpg

Stop the press.

Biden is a politician.

The USA administration does not always live up to its ideals and laws.

[Morch]

If the terrorist lunatics who hate Israel would simply leave them alone, peace would prevail. I also don't like to hear this BS about the Jews stealing their land. What have the lunatics done with the land that they occupy. Do you see any farms, gardens or manufacturing? It is quite a task to make gardens in the desert but Israel is doing it.

Israel stymies the Palestinian economy in multiple ways.

You are probably just trolling, but think "Jaffa" oranges, and how Israel came by that industry and its name, and what it did to the original Palestinian farmers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_orange

There's nothing overly negative in the link provided. Most orchards were not owned by small time farmers.

[Grouse]

You really need to take a look at your attitude toward anyone who voices displeasure with the Israeli governments actions.

There may be moderate voices criticizing Israel somewhere, but not on this forum. There is a bunch of hard core anti-Semites that post obsessively and it is not hard to read between the lines and see where they are really coming from. Some come right out and admit their hatred of Jews and others deny it, but constantly go along with anti-Semitic ideas and "like" some very suspicious posts.

Please try to distinguish between anti-Semite and anti-Zionist. They are not the same. I for one am sick and tired of hearing Zionists complaining. On the other hand I know several Jews who I find good company and not at all overbearing with their views

[Morch]

And no, you couldn't. Note how Biden's speech refers to shared blame, acknowledges Palestinian side's faults - not things likely to appear in your posts. And then there's the lack the hateful, inflammatory rhetoric......

And the lack of highly inaccurate, fake "history". Biden might be naïve and short-sighted, but he is basically honest.

That too. But then I'm not a great fan of your versions of history as well.

Selective use of historical narratives as a political/propaganda tool is not constructive. Even if some historians quoted on these topics glorify and upholds the practice.

[Ulysses G.]

That is your prerogative, but I would argue that there is BIG difference between selective use of historical narratives and making up blatant lies like some posters do.