Watana's daughter seeks US hand to look into human rights contravention

[elviajero]

The country most definitely is far worse than prior to the coup, I honestly don't think this is even debatable. The proof is overwhelming.

And Thailand most definitely had a democratic framework after the 1997 constitution. Key of course is that the minority accepts and respects that they are not in charge. This indeed is lacking in Thailand, and since that minority has some powerful and influential backers, they have repeatedly succeeded in taking power away from that majority.

If by Thai style democracy you mean the elite can control the government elected by the majority through a fully selected senate, you got what you wanted, as that is the draft constitution in a nutshell.

By the way, Yingluck's government did have the support of the majority, over 52% of the Thai electorate voted for the parties that formed the coalition government. And thanks to the success PT booked at constituency, they had the support of 300 out of 500 MP's.

And as a further note, dictating policies with little regard of the consequences or good of the country, is precisely what is happening right now !

A democratic framework means nothing if the players within the framework don't play by the rules. Every democratic government and opposition in the world has influential backers that pull the strings. The US being a prime example.

How many people voted for the coalition? Answer, none. And you have absolutely no way of knowing if Yingluck's government had the support of the people that voted for the coalition partners. The only reason a coalition was formed was due to the PTP having a very weak majority. When a party wins an election, and have a majority, they should stand on that majority. Allowing a coalition based on the offer of power and the contents of brown envelopes is entirely undemocratic.

[sjaak327]

The country most definitely is far worse than prior to the coup, I honestly don't think this is even debatable. The proof is overwhelming.

And Thailand most definitely had a democratic framework after the 1997 constitution. Key of course is that the minority accepts and respects that they are not in charge. This indeed is lacking in Thailand, and since that minority has some powerful and influential backers, they have repeatedly succeeded in taking power away from that majority.

If by Thai style democracy you mean the elite can control the government elected by the majority through a fully selected senate, you got what you wanted, as that is the draft constitution in a nutshell.

By the way, Yingluck's government did have the support of the majority, over 52% of the Thai electorate voted for the parties that formed the coalition government. And thanks to the success PT booked at constituency, they had the support of 300 out of 500 MP's.

And as a further note, dictating policies with little regard of the consequences or good of the country, is precisely what is happening right now !

A democratic framework means nothing if the players within the framework don't play by the rules. Every democratic government and opposition in the world has influential backers that pull the strings. The US being a prime example.

How many people voted for the coalition? Answer, none. And you have absolutely no way of knowing if Yingluck's government had the support of the people that voted for the coalition partners. The only reason a coalition was formed was due to the PTP having a very weak majority. When a party wins an election, and have a majority, they should stand on that majority. Allowing a coalition based on the offer of power and the contents of brown envelopes is entirely undemocratic.

Of course no one voted for the coalition per se. This is no different in many of the world's democracy where coalition governments are normal and necessary. My statement is 100% correct, stating that Yingluck's government had the support of the minority is 100% incorrect.

Yes they did have a majority in seats, but formed a coalition government to broaden that majority, I see nothing undemocratic about it.

At the very least, Yingluck's government achieved over 48% of votes in the PL, how many Thais choose this lot ?

In any case Thailand certainly had measures in play to ensure politicians play by the rules, and these measures have been used repeatedly.

By the way, it looks like the Junta indeed is going all the way with Watana, as they have now announced they are going to charge him.

Charge someone violating a rule created by a government that grabbed power by breaking the law, oh the irony !

Edited April 21, 2016 by sjaak327

[jayboy]

Watana is playing a game. He knew exactly what he was doing and that he would end up in detention for "attitude adjustment". Just another in a long line of people using politics for self (long term) gain.

What a shameful and mean spirited post.The profound stupidity of it is also striking since it overlooks a universal practice that democracy activists seek to expose repression - often by dramatic gestures.

So you believe activists make gestures to prove a point. Isn't that what I have written! But if you believe people like him do it for the good of the people perhaps you should be questioning your own judgement.

The profound stupidity is with Watana and family thinking his undramatic gesture is going to have any impact with the US.

It's a pointless exercise to attempt to look into people's hearts.Who knows what the real motivation is? One judges people by what they say and what they do.By these criteria Watana seems heroic.

And you are completely wrong in suggesting that the US and other leading democracies are taking no notice.

[elviajero]

Of course no one voted for the coalition per se. This is no different in many of the world's democracy where coalition governments are normal and necessary. My statement is 100% correct, stating that Yingluck's government had the support of the minority is 100% incorrect.

Yes they did have a majority in seats, but formed a coalition government to broaden that majority, I see nothing undemocratic about it.

At the very least, Yingluck's government achieved over 48% of votes in the PL, how many Thais choose this lot ?

In any case Thailand certainly had measures in play to ensure politicians play by the rules, and these measures have been used repeatedly.

By the way, it looks like the Junta indeed is going all the way with Watana, as they have now announced they are going to charge him.

Charge someone violating a rule created by a government that grabbed power by breaking the law, oh the irony !

Coalitions are usually formed out of necessity due to a hung parliament. That is a big difference to one formed to prop up a weak majority. Either way I disagree with coalitions as they in no way represent the will of the electorate based on the choices given at the poll. As we are going off topic, and the mods will end up deleting the conversation, there is no point in continuing the discussion.

Regardless of what happens to Watana, he knew what he was doing and the consequences of his actions. I believe his actions are out of self interest and I will respectfully agree to disagree with anyone that believes he's doing it for the good of the country or democracy.

Poking the bear is not the only way to elicit change, and probably the least effective.

[elviajero]

Watana is playing a game. He knew exactly what he was doing and that he would end up in detention for "attitude adjustment". Just another in a long line of people using politics for self (long term) gain.

What a shameful and mean spirited post.The profound stupidity of it is also striking since it overlooks a universal practice that democracy activists seek to expose repression - often by dramatic gestures.

So you believe activists make gestures to prove a point. Isn't that what I have written! But if you believe people like him do it for the good of the people perhaps you should be questioning your own judgement.

The profound stupidity is with Watana and family thinking his undramatic gesture is going to have any impact with the US.

It's a pointless exercise to attempt to look into people's hearts.Who knows what the real motivation is? One judges people by what they say and what they do.By these criteria Watana seems heroic.

And you are completely wrong in suggesting that the US and other leading democracies are taking no notice.

I didn't say the US etc. aren't taking notice. Try to read what others actually write!

They know exactly what's going on. They knew before this latest stunt by Watana and did nothing, and they will continue to do nothing regardless of his fate.

[jayboy]

Watana is playing a game. He knew exactly what he was doing and that he would end up in detention for "attitude adjustment". Just another in a long line of people using politics for self (long term) gain.

What a shameful and mean spirited post.The profound stupidity of it is also striking since it overlooks a universal practice that democracy activists seek to expose repression - often by dramatic gestures.

So you believe activists make gestures to prove a point. Isn't that what I have written! But if you believe people like him do it for the good of the people perhaps you should be questioning your own judgement.

The profound stupidity is with Watana and family thinking his undramatic gesture is going to have any impact with the US.

It's a pointless exercise to attempt to look into people's hearts.Who knows what the real motivation is? One judges people by what they say and what they do.By these criteria Watana seems heroic.

And you are completely wrong in suggesting that the US and other leading democracies are taking no notice.

I didn't say the US etc. aren't taking notice. Try to read what others actually write!

They know exactly what's going on. They knew before this latest stunt by Watana and did nothing, and they will continue to do nothing regardless of his fate.

You implied this disgraceful affair had no effect on US policy.You are wrong.Obviously the US has limited influence on an independent government however illegitimate and repressive.But this latest disgraceful act is just another step in the process of the Junta trashing Thailand's reputation.To believe this has no effect on the foreign policy of free nations is very naive.

[elviajero]

You implied this disgraceful affair had no effect on US policy.You are wrong.Obviously the US has limited influence on an independent government however illegitimate and repressive.But this latest disgraceful act is just another step in the process of the Junta trashing Thailand's reputation.To believe this has no effect on the foreign policy of free nations is very naive.

What I am saying is that Watana's stunt will have no affect on US policy regarding Thailand, and as this "disgraceful affair" has only just happened, and is yet to play out, you cannot say I am wrong, yet!

Thailand is under military rule and it is naive to think that inaction by foreign powers following a coup is going to turn into action because of Watana.

[MZurf]

Of course no one voted for the coalition per se. This is no different in many of the world's democracy where coalition governments are normal and necessary. My statement is 100% correct, stating that Yingluck's government had the support of the minority is 100% incorrect.

Yes they did have a majority in seats, but formed a coalition government to broaden that majority, I see nothing undemocratic about it.

At the very least, Yingluck's government achieved over 48% of votes in the PL, how many Thais choose this lot ?

In any case Thailand certainly had measures in play to ensure politicians play by the rules, and these measures have been used repeatedly.

By the way, it looks like the Junta indeed is going all the way with Watana, as they have now announced they are going to charge him.

Charge someone violating a rule created by a government that grabbed power by breaking the law, oh the irony !

Coalitions are usually formed out of necessity due to a hung parliament. That is a big difference to one formed to prop up a weak majority. Either way I disagree with coalitions as they in no way represent the will of the electorate based on the choices given at the poll. As we are going off topic, and the mods will end up deleting the conversation, there is no point in continuing the discussion.

Regardless of what happens to Watana, he knew what he was doing and the consequences of his actions. I believe his actions are out of self interest and I will respectfully agree to disagree with anyone that believes he's doing it for the good of the country or democracy.

Poking the bear is not the only way to elicit change, and probably the least effective.

"Poking the bear is not the only way to elicit change, and probably the least effective."

And just what options were open to him? You do know there's no freedom of speech and assembly in Thailand courtesy of the junta, right?

[MZurf]

Watana is playing a game. He knew exactly what he was doing and that he would end up in detention for "attitude adjustment". Just another in a long line of people using politics for self (long term) gain.

Of course he is playing a game, and just as the current regime, for personal gain. (you hopefully aren't so naïve to believe the current lot is not doing it for personal gain !).

I for one hope he succeeds, the sooner Thailand returns to democracy, the better.

The message that should be apparent and clear is that the current regime locks people up for merely expressing an opinion. And that is unacceptable, regardless who is being locked up.

The deflection tactics you employ make me sick, I cannot understand that there are people that approve this.

Let's see how this plays out, with a bit of luck the idiots fall for his trap. I think Prayuth and co are indeed stupid enough to make Watana into a martyr.

I don't trust any politicians and have contempt for the lot of them. I don't support the Junta's methods but I equally don't think the country is any worse off in the hands of the Junta than it will be once the next bunch of self serving politicians get hold of the purse strings.

Thailand has never had democracy and is decades away from being able to sustain a western style government. Democracies are the best of a bad choice, flawed and proven to fail. I don't profess to know the answer, but I believe Thailand needs to find it's own Thai style way to govern it's people. Thailand is unique and currently has another opportunity to start over.

If things are left unchanged and restart as before we will see another 'democratic' (LOL) government, elected by a minority of the electorate, that will be able to dictate policy with little regard for the consequences or good of the country.

"I don't support the Junta's methods but I equally don't think the country is any worse off in the hands of the Junta than it will be once the next bunch of self serving politicians get hold of the purse strings. "

Economically you MIGHT be right. But then there's this little matter of respecting human rights, and here the junta is far worse than the government they took power from.

"Thailand has never had democracy and is decades away from being able to sustain a western style government. Democracies are the best of a bad choice, flawed and proven to fail. I don't profess to know the answer, but I believe Thailand needs to find it's own Thai style way to govern it's people."

Thailand has indeed had democracy, albeit a very flawed one. And the only way a less flawed one can evolve is if the army/old elite stopped meddling in politics.

Fat chance!

[jayboy]

You implied this disgraceful affair had no effect on US policy.You are wrong.Obviously the US has limited influence on an independent government however illegitimate and repressive.But this latest disgraceful act is just another step in the process of the Junta trashing Thailand's reputation.To believe this has no effect on the foreign policy of free nations is very naive.

What I am saying is that Watana's stunt will have no affect on US policy regarding Thailand, and as this "disgraceful affair" has only just happened, and is yet to play out, you cannot say I am wrong, yet!

Thailand is under military rule and it is naive to think that inaction by foreign powers following a coup is going to turn into action because of Watana.

It will not have an affect simply by itself but taken with other excesses will contribute further to the Thai government's terrible reputation - another brick in the wall.

I have no idea what you mean in saying the affair has not yet played out as though that can obscure the shameful treatment of Watana to date.

Your last paragraph is incoherent.Nobody suggested Watana's detention had that kind of significance.It's simply the latest in a string of abuses.The US position has been consistent throughout - but it no longer has the influence it did in the days before Kukrit.

The only surprising aspect that there remain a few foolish foreigners attempting to defend the indefensible.

[Rancid]

500,000 Iraqi children starved to death via sanctions, Albright says this crime against humanity, even genocide perhaps, was all worth it.

Now they are going to seek help from the US about human rights? Amazing...might as well appeal to N. Korea.

[sjaak327]

Of course no one voted for the coalition per se. This is no different in many of the world's democracy where coalition governments are normal and necessary. My statement is 100% correct, stating that Yingluck's government had the support of the minority is 100% incorrect.

Yes they did have a majority in seats, but formed a coalition government to broaden that majority, I see nothing undemocratic about it.

At the very least, Yingluck's government achieved over 48% of votes in the PL, how many Thais choose this lot ?

In any case Thailand certainly had measures in play to ensure politicians play by the rules, and these measures have been used repeatedly.

By the way, it looks like the Junta indeed is going all the way with Watana, as they have now announced they are going to charge him.

Charge someone violating a rule created by a government that grabbed power by breaking the law, oh the irony !

Coalitions are usually formed out of necessity due to a hung parliament. That is a big difference to one formed to prop up a weak majority. Either way I disagree with coalitions as they in no way represent the will of the electorate based on the choices given at the poll. As we are going off topic, and the mods will end up deleting the conversation, there is no point in continuing the discussion.

Regardless of what happens to Watana, he knew what he was doing and the consequences of his actions. I believe his actions are out of self interest and I will respectfully agree to disagree with anyone that believes he's doing it for the good of the country or democracy.

Poking the bear is not the only way to elicit change, and probably the least effective.

Coalitions are a necessity in many democracies, as precious few exists where one party grabs enough votes to govern alone. Saying that such a coalition doesn't reflect the will of the electorate is something I cannot agree with.

Yes Watana knew what he was doing, that doesn't suddenly mean it's ok he is going to be charged for speaking his mind.

How can the junta reset Thailand's democracy, without allowing debate about the content of the draft constitution is beyond me. The reasons for them doing it are obvious. The draft charter will ensure their continued meddling in Thai politics, they don't really need to stage a coup anymore, their selected senate can simply get rid of the government du jour.

Quite frankly, I don't see many ways to change, and poking that bear seems to be the only option left.

[Nobb]

So sad that the people in Thailand have no right. If you do not agree with us you go to a adjustment period. This is what they did in Germany under Hitler and still do in North Korea and China. I thought this junta was to help make the elections and Democracy stronger. This government which has been taken over by military leaders and many more assigned to the high ranking police and appointed to position in the Thai government with out the election process. Can you truly blame Watana,s from complaining. Next she will be in jail for a junta offence!

[tukkytuktuk]

500,000 Iraqi children starved to death via sanctions, Albright says this crime against humanity, even genocide perhaps, was all worth it.

Now they are going to seek help from the US about human rights? Amazing...might as well appeal to N. Korea.

Yes being banged up for speaking your opinion is a human rights issue. If you want to know what happens during attitude adjustment detention you should read this article by Pravit R a journalist for Khoasod news and previous to that The nation news. It's pretty awful - http://thediplomat.com/2015/09/how-thailands-military-junta-tried-to-adjust-my-attitude-in-detention/

[Barontt]

Watana is playing a game. He knew exactly what he was doing and that he would end up in detention for "attitude adjustment". Just another in a long line of people using politics for self (long term) gain.

Of course he is playing a game, and just as the current regime, for personal gain. (you hopefully aren't so naïve to believe the current lot is not doing it for personal gain !).

I for one hope he succeeds, the sooner Thailand returns to democracy, the better.

The message that should be apparent and clear is that the current regime locks people up for merely expressing an opinion. And that is unacceptable, regardless who is being locked up.

The deflection tactics you employ make me sick, I cannot understand that there are people that approve this.

Let's see how this plays out, with a bit of luck the idiots fall for his trap. I think Prayuth and co are indeed stupid enough to make Watana into a martyr.

I don't trust any politicians and have contempt for the lot of them. I don't support the Junta's methods but I equally don't think the country is any worse off in the hands of the Junta than it will be once the next bunch of self serving politicians get hold of the purse strings.

Thailand has never had democracy and is decades away from being able to sustain a western style government. Democracies are the best of a bad choice, flawed and proven to fail. I don't profess to know the answer, but I believe Thailand needs to find it's own Thai style way to govern it's people. Thailand is unique and currently has another opportunity to start over.

If things are left unchanged and restart as before we will see another 'democratic' (LOL) government, elected by a minority of the electorate, that will be able to dictate policy with little regard for the consequences or good of the country.

The country most definitely is far worse than prior to the coup, I honestly don't think this is even debatable. The proof is overwhelming.

And Thailand most definitely had a democratic framework after the 1997 constitution. Key of course is that the minority accepts and respects that they are not in charge. This indeed is lacking in Thailand, and since that minority has some powerful and influential backers, they have repeatedly succeeded in taking power away from that majority.

If by Thai style democracy you mean the elite can control the government elected by the majority through a fully selected senate, you got what you wanted, as that is the draft constitution in a nutshell.

By the way, Yingluck's government did have the support of the majority, over 52% of the Thai electorate voted for the parties that formed the coalition government. And thanks to the success PT booked at constituency, they had the support of 300 out of 500 MP's.

And as a further note, dictating policies with little regard of the consequences or good of the country, is precisely what is happening right now !

"The country most definitely is far worse than prior to the coup, I honestly don't think this is even debatable. The proof is overwhelming."

Do you put no value on Thai lives? How many people were killed during political activities under the previous (Thaksin proxy) government, compared to this non-elected one? There are many Thais, perhaps the majority if the polls are to be believed, who prefer the current government.

[elviajero]

You implied this disgraceful affair had no effect on US policy.You are wrong.Obviously the US has limited influence on an independent government however illegitimate and repressive.But this latest disgraceful act is just another step in the process of the Junta trashing Thailand's reputation.To believe this has no effect on the foreign policy of free nations is very naive.

What I am saying is that Watana's stunt will have no affect on US policy regarding Thailand, and as this "disgraceful affair" has only just happened, and is yet to play out, you cannot say I am wrong, yet!

Thailand is under military rule and it is naive to think that inaction by foreign powers following a coup is going to turn into action because of Watana.

It will not have an affect simply by itself but taken with other excesses will contribute further to the Thai government's terrible reputation - another brick in the wall.

I have no idea what you mean in saying the affair has not yet played out as though that can obscure the shameful treatment of Watana to date.

Your last paragraph is incoherent. Nobody suggested Watana's detention had that kind of significance.It's simply the latest in a string of abuses.The US position has been consistent throughout - but it no longer has the influence it did in the days before Kukrit.

The only surprising aspect that there remain a few foolish foreigners attempting to defend the indefensible.

I am not defending the Juntas handling of Watana.

For the record; You said that I was wrong for implying the Watana affair had no affect on US policy. As no change of policy has yet been announced, and as the 'affair' is ongoing, you cannot claim I am wrong. However, by saying I am wrong for implying that the Watana affair has had no affect on US policy you are implying that the affair has had a affect. In which case prove it.

What don't you understand about another very simple comment? And you call me stupid!

Exactly, the US have consistently done nothing other make a few politically correct noises. And as far a reputations go the US doesn't fair much better than Thailand's under past or present governments.

[tbthailand]

it is sad how some people can twist fascism into something they feel comfortable justifying...

I am not justifying anything!

It is indeed sad that some people can't accept a very simple statement for what it is.

I am not justifying anything!

yes, you are....

When you've grown up and are ready for a mature debate come back. In the meantime, my dad's bigger than your dad!

really ?? Pointing out the obvious to you and you revert to some childish chant?

Good job, ...

Your other posts prove that you have no concept of human rights, much less right vs wrong. Again, I find it sad that people like yourself can transform this level of fascism in Thailand into something that you can feel comfortable justifying.

[sjaak327]

The country most definitely is far worse than prior to the coup, I honestly don't think this is even debatable. The proof is overwhelming.

And Thailand most definitely had a democratic framework after the 1997 constitution. Key of course is that the minority accepts and respects that they are not in charge. This indeed is lacking in Thailand, and since that minority has some powerful and influential backers, they have repeatedly succeeded in taking power away from that majority.

If by Thai style democracy you mean the elite can control the government elected by the majority through a fully selected senate, you got what you wanted, as that is the draft constitution in a nutshell.

By the way, Yingluck's government did have the support of the majority, over 52% of the Thai electorate voted for the parties that formed the coalition government. And thanks to the success PT booked at constituency, they had the support of 300 out of 500 MP's.

And as a further note, dictating policies with little regard of the consequences or good of the country, is precisely what is happening right now !

"The country most definitely is far worse than prior to the coup, I honestly don't think this is even debatable. The proof is overwhelming."

Do you put no value on Thai lives? How many people were killed during political activities under the previous (Thaksin proxy) government, compared to this non-elected one? There are many Thais, perhaps the majority if the polls are to be believed, who prefer the current government.

sure, as far as I know Yingluck's government did not kill these people.

Prayuth however was directly involved in the loss of life in 2010, but I guess that those lives have no value at all right ? Ridiculous to point out the loss of live, considering the Thai military has exceeded in killing the very people they are paid to protect.

the polls are not to be believed considering the source of those polls....

I don't think suppressing people's human rights to be acceptable, certainly not under the pretext of saving a few lives, how did the Songkran road safety measures of this cabinet work out exactly ?

[pedro01]

Watana is playing a game. He knew exactly what he was doing and that he would end up in detention for "attitude adjustment". Just another in a long line of people using politics for self (long term) gain.

Of course he is playing a game, and just as the current regime, for personal gain. (you hopefully aren't so naïve to believe the current lot is not doing it for personal gain !).

I for one hope he succeeds, the sooner Thailand returns to democracy, the better.

The message that should be apparent and clear is that the current regime locks people up for merely expressing an opinion. And that is unacceptable, regardless who is being locked up.

The deflection tactics you employ make me sick, I cannot understand that there are people that approve this.

Let's see how this plays out, with a bit of luck the idiots fall for his trap. I think Prayuth and co are indeed stupid enough to make Watana into a martyr.

I don't trust any politicians and have contempt for the lot of them. I don't support the Junta's methods but I equally don't think the country is any worse off in the hands of the Junta than it will be once the next bunch of self serving politicians get hold of the purse strings.

Thailand has never had democracy and is decades away from being able to sustain a western style government. Democracies are the best of a bad choice, flawed and proven to fail. I don't profess to know the answer, but I believe Thailand needs to find it's own Thai style way to govern it's people. Thailand is unique and currently has another opportunity to start over.

If things are left unchanged and restart as before we will see another 'democratic' (LOL) government, elected by a minority of the electorate, that will be able to dictate policy with little regard for the consequences or good of the country.

The country most definitely is far worse than prior to the coup, I honestly don't think this is even debatable. The proof is overwhelming.

And Thailand most definitely had a democratic framework after the 1997 constitution. Key of course is that the minority accepts and respects that they are not in charge. This indeed is lacking in Thailand, and since that minority has some powerful and influential backers, they have repeatedly succeeded in taking power away from that majority.

If by Thai style democracy you mean the elite can control the government elected by the majority through a fully selected senate, you got what you wanted, as that is the draft constitution in a nutshell.

By the way, Yingluck's government did have the support of the majority, over 52% of the Thai electorate voted for the parties that formed the coalition government. And thanks to the success PT booked at constituency, they had the support of 300 out of 500 MP's.

And as a further note, dictating policies with little regard of the consequences or good of the country, is precisely what is happening right now !

What is worse, exactly?

No protests in the streets. Nobody being killed because of their political beliefs.

And corrupt politicians being told under no uncertain terms to <deleted>.

How is Thailand worse? From my perspective and those of my (Thai) family, it's basically the same without the bullets.

[jayboy]

You implied this disgraceful affair had no effect on US policy.You are wrong.Obviously the US has limited influence on an independent government however illegitimate and repressive.But this latest disgraceful act is just another step in the process of the Junta trashing Thailand's reputation.To believe this has no effect on the foreign policy of free nations is very naive.

What I am saying is that Watana's stunt will have no affect on US policy regarding Thailand, and as this "disgraceful affair" has only just happened, and is yet to play out, you cannot say I am wrong, yet!

Thailand is under military rule and it is naive to think that inaction by foreign powers following a coup is going to turn into action because of Watana.

It will not have an affect simply by itself but taken with other excesses will contribute further to the Thai government's terrible reputation - another brick in the wall.

I have no idea what you mean in saying the affair has not yet played out as though that can obscure the shameful treatment of Watana to date.

Your last paragraph is incoherent. Nobody suggested Watana's detention had that kind of significance.It's simply the latest in a string of abuses.The US position has been consistent throughout - but it no longer has the influence it did in the days before Kukrit.

The only surprising aspect that there remain a few foolish foreigners attempting to defend the indefensible.

I am not defending the Juntas handling of Watana.

For the record; You said that I was wrong for implying the Watana affair had no affect on US policy. As no change of policy has yet been announced, and as the 'affair' is ongoing, you cannot claim I am wrong. However, by saying I am wrong for implying that the Watana affair has had no affect on US policy you are implying that the affair has had a affect. In which case prove it.

What don't you understand about another very simple comment? And you call me stupid!

Exactly, the US have consistently done nothing other make a few politically correct noises. And as far a reputations go the US doesn't fair much better than Thailand's under past or present governments.

Read my post more carefully since your questions - though they are with respect somewhat puerile - have already been covered there.

But since you apparently believe Thailand's record on human rights and freedom is on a par with that of the US you might be better employed continuing this conversation at some bar for blue collar foreigners where such opinions are I believe quite common.

[sjaak327]

The country most definitely is far worse than prior to the coup, I honestly don't think this is even debatable. The proof is overwhelming.

And Thailand most definitely had a democratic framework after the 1997 constitution. Key of course is that the minority accepts and respects that they are not in charge. This indeed is lacking in Thailand, and since that minority has some powerful and influential backers, they have repeatedly succeeded in taking power away from that majority.

If by Thai style democracy you mean the elite can control the government elected by the majority through a fully selected senate, you got what you wanted, as that is the draft constitution in a nutshell.

By the way, Yingluck's government did have the support of the majority, over 52% of the Thai electorate voted for the parties that formed the coalition government. And thanks to the success PT booked at constituency, they had the support of 300 out of 500 MP's.

And as a further note, dictating policies with little regard of the consequences or good of the country, is precisely what is happening right now !

What is worse, exactly?

No protests in the streets. Nobody being killed because of their political beliefs.

And corrupt politicians being told under no uncertain terms to <deleted>.

How is Thailand worse? From my perspective and those of my (Thai) family, it's basically the same without the bullets.

So you apparently don't value your human rights, that's ok, but don't think this applies to all of us out here.

Careful, people will get killed for their political beliefs if this lot doesn't bugger off soon. Read Thai history if you don't know what I'm talking about.

The fact that you are happy does not mean everyone is, there are a shitload of Thai people that aren't happy about the state of affairs, they aren't happy that they cannot employ some freedoms that they could employ under the two previous governments. And they certainly aren't happy to go to prison just for voicing an opinion.

[pedro01]

The country most definitely is far worse than prior to the coup, I honestly don't think this is even debatable. The proof is overwhelming.

And Thailand most definitely had a democratic framework after the 1997 constitution. Key of course is that the minority accepts and respects that they are not in charge. This indeed is lacking in Thailand, and since that minority has some powerful and influential backers, they have repeatedly succeeded in taking power away from that majority.

If by Thai style democracy you mean the elite can control the government elected by the majority through a fully selected senate, you got what you wanted, as that is the draft constitution in a nutshell.

By the way, Yingluck's government did have the support of the majority, over 52% of the Thai electorate voted for the parties that formed the coalition government. And thanks to the success PT booked at constituency, they had the support of 300 out of 500 MP's.

And as a further note, dictating policies with little regard of the consequences or good of the country, is precisely what is happening right now !

What is worse, exactly?

No protests in the streets. Nobody being killed because of their political beliefs.

And corrupt politicians being told under no uncertain terms to <deleted>.

How is Thailand worse? From my perspective and those of my (Thai) family, it's basically the same without the bullets.

So you apparently don't value your human rights, that's ok, but don't think this applies to all of us out here.

Careful, people will get killed for their political beliefs if this lot doesn't bugger off soon. Read Thai history if you don't know what I'm talking about.

The fact that you are happy does not mean everyone is, there are a shitload of Thai people that aren't happy about the state of affairs, they aren't happy that they cannot employ some freedoms that they could employ under the two previous governments. And they certainly aren't happy to go to prison just for voicing an opinion.

Which specific "human rights" don't I value?

Myself and every Thai I know is currently about their business in exactly the same way they did before. Well - with the exception of there being no violent political protests, we no longer have 2 opposing political groups dividing the country.

I currently don't have to worry about my wife getting stuck in the car with one of our children and a gun battle breaking out in the street.

I simply have not met the "shitload" of unhappy people you mention. I know hundreds of Thai people and this is one of the topics of discussion. Without exception they are all happy that the violence has passed. Many are dissapointed with the lack of progress but these people are not unhappy with the state of affairs.

In terms of the freedoms lost - these were the freedoms that saw people killing each other in the street. As mentioned - every Thai I know is happy that that is over.

Nobody is really going to prison just for voicing an opinion. We are all voicing our opinions here. Thai websites are the same. People talk about this stuff all the time.

You are, after all, expressing your dissent quite freely here, without risk whatsoever - so please don't try to make out like you are in North Korea.

It's the shit-stirring that has been curtailed - the stuff that was previously bringing people out into the streets. It's not missed.

[elviajero]

Of course no one voted for the coalition per se. This is no different in many of the world's democracy where coalition governments are normal and necessary. My statement is 100% correct, stating that Yingluck's government had the support of the minority is 100% incorrect.

Yes they did have a majority in seats, but formed a coalition government to broaden that majority, I see nothing undemocratic about it.

At the very least, Yingluck's government achieved over 48% of votes in the PL, how many Thais choose this lot ?

In any case Thailand certainly had measures in play to ensure politicians play by the rules, and these measures have been used repeatedly.

By the way, it looks like the Junta indeed is going all the way with Watana, as they have now announced they are going to charge him.

Charge someone violating a rule created by a government that grabbed power by breaking the law, oh the irony !

Coalitions are usually formed out of necessity due to a hung parliament. That is a big difference to one formed to prop up a weak majority. Either way I disagree with coalitions as they in no way represent the will of the electorate based on the choices given at the poll. As we are going off topic, and the mods will end up deleting the conversation, there is no point in continuing the discussion.

Regardless of what happens to Watana, he knew what he was doing and the consequences of his actions. I believe his actions are out of self interest and I will respectfully agree to disagree with anyone that believes he's doing it for the good of the country or democracy.

Poking the bear is not the only way to elicit change, and probably the least effective.

Coalitions are a necessity in many democracies, as precious few exists where one party grabs enough votes to govern alone. Saying that such a coalition doesn't reflect the will of the electorate is something I cannot agree with.

Yes Watana knew what he was doing, that doesn't suddenly mean it's ok he is going to be charged for speaking his mind.

How can the junta reset Thailand's democracy, without allowing debate about the content of the draft constitution is beyond me. The reasons for them doing it are obvious. The draft charter will ensure their continued meddling in Thai politics, they don't really need to stage a coup anymore, their selected senate can simply get rid of the government du jour.

Quite frankly, I don't see many ways to change, and poking that bear seems to be the only option left.

Necessary in the event of a hung parliament. The PTP did get enough seats to govern alone. A coalition wasn't necessary other than to give the PTP greater power.

I didn't say it was ok for him to be charged with speaking his mind. I am simply saying that he knew the consequences of speaking his mind and went ahead for political and (long term) personal gain.

[Moonmoon]

Sorry no use, farangs US do not understand thainess

[Moonmoon]

] a change can only come when all whether rich or poor, respect the rule of law from all sides from all classes. Election n coup, election n coup, its a cycle after cycle.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Moonmoon

[elviajero]

Read my post more carefully since your questions - though they are with respect somewhat puerile - have already been covered there.

But since you apparently believe Thailand's record on human rights and freedom is on a par with that of the US you might be better employed continuing this conversation at some bar for blue collar foreigners where such opinions are I believe quite common.

Once again you're misinterpreting what i'm saying. I didn't say the US and Thailand's "human rights and freedoms" are on a par (the same). I simply said that the US and Thailand both have bad reputations.

[elviajero]

I am not justifying anything!

yes, you are....

When you've grown up and are ready for a mature debate come back. In the meantime, my dad's bigger than your dad!

really ?? Pointing out the obvious to you and you revert to some childish chant?

Good job, ...

Your other posts prove that you have no concept of human rights, much less right vs wrong. Again, I find it sad that people like yourself can transform this level of fascism in Thailand into something that you can feel comfortable justifying.

I have made no comment on human rights so how do you know my view?

I am not justifying anything!

[tbthailand]

Watana is lucky that he is well-known and that all of Thailand knows that he is in custody.

Other people, not so lucky... http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/6062

[sjaak327]

Which specific "human rights" don't I value?

Myself and every Thai I know is currently about their business in exactly the same way they did before. Well - with the exception of there being no violent political protests, we no longer have 2 opposing political groups dividing the country.

I currently don't have to worry about my wife getting stuck in the car with one of our children and a gun battle breaking out in the street.

I simply have not met the "shitload" of unhappy people you mention. I know hundreds of Thai people and this is one of the topics of discussion. Without exception they are all happy that the violence has passed. Many are dissapointed with the lack of progress but these people are not unhappy with the state of affairs.

In terms of the freedoms lost - these were the freedoms that saw people killing each other in the street. As mentioned - every Thai I know is happy that that is over.

Nobody is really going to prison just for voicing an opinion. We are all voicing our opinions here. Thai websites are the same. People talk about this stuff all the time.

You are, after all, expressing your dissent quite freely here, without risk whatsoever - so please don't try to make out like you are in North Korea.

It's the shit-stirring that has been curtailed - the stuff that was previously bringing people out into the streets. It's not missed.

Well for instance the right to express yourself, the very subject of this thread. In case you haven't read the OP, it handles the detainment without arrest warrant or due process of an individual criticizing the current government and the draft charter they produced.

Now if you find that acceptable behavior you are extremely selfish. People should have a right to criticize, there should be room for debate, otherwise this country will never move forward.

That you have not met those people, does not mean they don't exist, get out that ivory tower and go up north or in issaan, those people do not praise this government, and for good reason. In fact I meet those people even in Krung Thep, the place I suppose you are coming from, considering the violence occurred there and your worries about your wife.

I was here during that time too, and at no point was I worried about my partner being shot, a gross exaggeration of the actual situation. Those worries would have been more appropriate when the army did the shooting back in 2010...

And yes, pedro, people are going to prison for voicing an opinion, there have even been people jailed for liking or sharing facebook posts, again get out that tower, back into the real world.

Your assertion that we no longer have two rival political groups is incredibly naïve. It is only a matter of time until that will become apparent to you.

[sjaak327]

Of course no one voted for the coalition per se. This is no different in many of the world's democracy where coalition governments are normal and necessary. My statement is 100% correct, stating that Yingluck's government had the support of the minority is 100% incorrect.

Yes they did have a majority in seats, but formed a coalition government to broaden that majority, I see nothing undemocratic about it.

At the very least, Yingluck's government achieved over 48% of votes in the PL, how many Thais choose this lot ?

In any case Thailand certainly had measures in play to ensure politicians play by the rules, and these measures have been used repeatedly.

By the way, it looks like the Junta indeed is going all the way with Watana, as they have now announced they are going to charge him.

Charge someone violating a rule created by a government that grabbed power by breaking the law, oh the irony !

Coalitions are usually formed out of necessity due to a hung parliament. That is a big difference to one formed to prop up a weak majority. Either way I disagree with coalitions as they in no way represent the will of the electorate based on the choices given at the poll. As we are going off topic, and the mods will end up deleting the conversation, there is no point in continuing the discussion.

Regardless of what happens to Watana, he knew what he was doing and the consequences of his actions. I believe his actions are out of self interest and I will respectfully agree to disagree with anyone that believes he's doing it for the good of the country or democracy.

Poking the bear is not the only way to elicit change, and probably the least effective.

Coalitions are a necessity in many democracies, as precious few exists where one party grabs enough votes to govern alone. Saying that such a coalition doesn't reflect the will of the electorate is something I cannot agree with.

Yes Watana knew what he was doing, that doesn't suddenly mean it's ok he is going to be charged for speaking his mind.

How can the junta reset Thailand's democracy, without allowing debate about the content of the draft constitution is beyond me. The reasons for them doing it are obvious. The draft charter will ensure their continued meddling in Thai politics, they don't really need to stage a coup anymore, their selected senate can simply get rid of the government du jour.

Quite frankly, I don't see many ways to change, and poking that bear seems to be the only option left.

Necessary in the event of a hung parliament. The PTP did get enough seats to govern alone. A coalition wasn't necessary other than to give the PTP greater power.

I didn't say it was ok for him to be charged with speaking his mind. I am simply saying that he knew the consequences of speaking his mind and went ahead for political and (long term) personal gain.

It indeed wasn't strictly necessary, in fact the majority was already 15 seats 265 out of 300. I personally believe that still forming that coalition to be a much better option, not only for those 35 extra seats, but to create a broader base in society. Thaksin did the same when he achieved both a majority in % at the PL and a majority of seats in parliament. Undemocratic it most certainly isn't.

Why the deflection again, I suppose everyone in Thailand (except for Pedro above) knows full well that criticizing the government can have serious consequences. That needs to be fixed, but I am afraid that the only way to do that is violence.