Thailand - is it making real progress?

[Berkshire]

my niece graduated with one degree 2 years ago and makes 15,000 a month. tell your wife to change schools

My wife is at the 3rd school since we met. One paid the salary your niece is getting but worked her to the bone. Most days 12 hours. Worked weekends. Had to stay at the school for one weekend a month. Treated like a slave.Worked her till she was so exhausted and she got sick then they fired her well she was sick. I see your posts as not the Thailand the rest of us know. It appears your reality here is far different than the reality of the masses. You are yours maybe blessed but it does not mean the rest are given the same opportunities.Please remember that when you post. you have a very narrow perpective. Mainly it seems because you refer only to your own family as an example. Check around you most are not living like you are with all the same opportunities. So you are connected. That makes you part of the problem. Taking care of your self well the rest suffer. Not nice picture.

youre quite mistaken. our family did well because they worked hard and sacrificed for their children who in turn worked and studied. it had nothing to do with connections.

So then what do your posts on this thread have to do with the topic? Or do you wish to change the topic to how your family has done in Thailand well the rest of the country is going backwards.Because all you talk about is your family.The topic is Thailand not your family sorry.

Perhaps it's not Thailand going backwards, but you and your family mostly...going by your very "narrow perspective."

[metisdead]

A post discussing politics has been removed:

I don't think the OP intended for this topic to go into political discussion, if the discussion continues to go in the direction of Thai political discussion, it will the closed as per the Policy In General Regarding Thailand Political Discussions-UPDATED.

[lovelomsak]

Berkshire my family is doing well thank you.But that is still off topic do you not think? Ask a mod if I can tell you how well or if it is off topic. I will gladly catch you up to speed on how well. But I am not here to talk about my family and neither should others in My Humble Opinion

[Blackheart]

How exactly has Thailand progressed.

Tractors instead of Buffaloes, what else I have no idea.

All I see is a nation ready to implode.

Another amazing ruler full of great promises will turn it all around until the next coupe,not.

Corruption is rampant, health care is a joke, welfare system a joke, education well you need a degree to work almost everywhere from McDonald's to Swansens so they are worthless.

What progress has been made from within Thailand.

I really am surprised so many can actually organise a root in a brothel

[ChrisKC]

How exactly has Thailand progressed.

Tractors instead of Buffaloes, what else I have no idea.

All I see is a nation ready to implode.

Another amazing ruler full of great promises will turn it all around until the next coupe,not.

Corruption is rampant, health care is a joke, welfare system a joke, education well you need a degree to work almost everywhere from McDonald's to Swansens so they are worthless.

What progress has been made from within Thailand.

I really am surprised so many can actually organise a root in a brothel

I didn't think it was quite that bad!

What is a "root in a brothel"? I couldn't organise one of those either

[MatteoBassini]

If you don't see a future, if you don't like it, if you are not happy, leave.

This kind of post comes up again and again, and it's nothing but miserable old men bashing Thailand.

You have all the money and opportunity in the world to go live elsewhere, and yet, you're still here.

[lovelomsak]

If you don't see a future, if you don't like it, if you are not happy, leave.

This kind of post comes up again and again, and it's nothing but miserable old men bashing Thailand.

You have all the money and opportunity in the world to go live elsewhere, and yet, you're still here.

You are assuming the posters live here. This thread is about Thailand not whether or not people live here.People outside the country may be posting their views here.

Where the poster lives has nothing to do with Thailand and its lack of progress.

Edited April 27, 2016 by lovelomsak

[Blackheart]

I live in Australia, probably will reside in Thailand one day.

I am entitled to an opinion on their government however as are the expats, and just because they don't like the government does not mean they are unhappy with their lives there either.

As for old I'm forty, not to old yet, old enough to give an opinion when an opinion is asked.

[AYJAYDEE]

How exactly has Thailand progressed.

Tractors instead of Buffaloes, what else I have no idea.

All I see is a nation ready to implode.

Another amazing ruler full of great promises will turn it all around until the next coupe,not.

Corruption is rampant, health care is a joke, welfare system a joke, education well you need a degree to work almost everywhere from McDonald's to Swansens so they are worthless.

What progress has been made from within Thailand.

I really am surprised so many can actually organise a root in a brothel

health care for the average farm family is far better AND more affordable than it used to be I assure you.

[Berkshire]

How exactly has Thailand progressed.

Tractors instead of Buffaloes, what else I have no idea.

All I see is a nation ready to implode.

Another amazing ruler full of great promises will turn it all around until the next coupe,not.

Corruption is rampant, health care is a joke, welfare system a joke, education well you need a degree to work almost everywhere from McDonald's to Swansens so they are worthless.

What progress has been made from within Thailand.

I really am surprised so many can actually organise a root in a brothel

I didn't think it was quite that bad!

You're right, it's not that bad. Quite the opposite, actually, in many respects. BH doesn't even live in Thailand, yet feels the need to bash it with massive exaggeration and nonsense. I wonder what his agenda is because guys like that always have one....otherwise, why else would they feel the need to lie with such intensity?

[Blackheart]

How exactly has Thailand progressed.

Tractors instead of Buffaloes, what else I have no idea.

All I see is a nation ready to implode.

Another amazing ruler full of great promises will turn it all around until the next coupe,not.

Corruption is rampant, health care is a joke, welfare system a joke, education well you need a degree to work almost everywhere from McDonald's to Swansens so they are worthless.

What progress has been made from within Thailand.

I really am surprised so many can actually organise a root in a brothel

I didn't think it was quite that bad!

You're right, it's not that bad. Quite the opposite, actually, in many respects. BH doesn't even live in Thailand, yet feels the need to bash it with massive exaggeration and nonsense. I wonder what his agenda is because guys like that always have one....otherwise, why else would they feel the need to lie with such intensity?

So I'm lying, that would mean there is no corruption, education is great, welfare stem great, Medicare great.

I said they are terrible, tell me exactly what parts are good.

[AYJAYDEE]

How exactly has Thailand progressed.

Tractors instead of Buffaloes, what else I have no idea.

All I see is a nation ready to implode.

Another amazing ruler full of great promises will turn it all around until the next coupe,not.

Corruption is rampant, health care is a joke, welfare system a joke, education well you need a degree to work almost everywhere from McDonald's to Swansens so they are worthless.

What progress has been made from within Thailand.

I really am surprised so many can actually organise a root in a brothel

I didn't think it was quite that bad!

You're right, it's not that bad. Quite the opposite, actually, in many respects. BH doesn't even live in Thailand, yet feels the need to bash it with massive exaggeration and nonsense. I wonder what his agenda is because guys like that always have one....otherwise, why else would they feel the need to lie with such intensity?

So I'm lying, that would mean there is no corruption, education is great, welfare stem great, Medicare great.

I said they are terrible, tell me exactly what parts are good.

no one said any of that nonsense. they merely said thailand is progressing.

[Berkshire]

How exactly has Thailand progressed.

Tractors instead of Buffaloes, what else I have no idea.

All I see is a nation ready to implode.

Another amazing ruler full of great promises will turn it all around until the next coupe,not.

Corruption is rampant, health care is a joke, welfare system a joke, education well you need a degree to work almost everywhere from McDonald's to Swansens so they are worthless.

What progress has been made from within Thailand.

I really am surprised so many can actually organise a root in a brothel

I didn't think it was quite that bad!

You're right, it's not that bad. Quite the opposite, actually, in many respects. BH doesn't even live in Thailand, yet feels the need to bash it with massive exaggeration and nonsense. I wonder what his agenda is because guys like that always have one....otherwise, why else would they feel the need to lie with such intensity?

So I'm lying, that would mean there is no corruption, education is great, welfare stem great, Medicare great.

I said they are terrible, tell me exactly what parts are good.

I said massive exaggeration (true) and nonsense (true). And yes, outright lies. You said "health care is a joke." I've been through the Thai medical system and it's absolutely not a joke. I've received excellent, professional care in Thai hospitals. I've gotten both medical and dental care, never a problem. And the cost was more than reasonable. So you're basically telling a lie.

[Blackheart]

How exactly has Thailand progressed.

Tractors instead of Buffaloes, what else I have no idea.

All I see is a nation ready to implode.

Another amazing ruler full of great promises will turn it all around until the next coupe,not.

Corruption is rampant, health care is a joke, welfare system a joke, education well you need a degree to work almost everywhere from McDonald's to Swansens so they are worthless.

What progress has been made from within Thailand.

I really am surprised so many can actually organise a root in a brothel

I didn't think it was quite that bad!

You're right, it's not that bad. Quite the opposite, actually, in many respects. BH doesn't even live in Thailand, yet feels the need to bash it with massive exaggeration and nonsense. I wonder what his agenda is because guys like that always have one....otherwise, why else would they feel the need to lie with such intensity?

So I'm lying, that would mean there is no corruption, education is great, welfare stem great, Medicare great.

I said they are terrible, tell me exactly what parts are good.

I said massive exaggeration (true) and nonsense (true). And yes, outright lies. You said "health care is a joke." I've been through the Thai medical system and it's absolutely not a joke. I've received excellent, professional care in Thai hospitals. I've gotten both medical and dental care, never a problem. And the cost was more than reasonable. So you're basically telling a lie.

Are you talking about the medical system for the average everyday day thai or private hospitals etc.

After all if your speaking from experience it's likely you went private.

We are not talking private hospitals or schools we are talking what the government does in general for the average man.

F all, and that's a widely known fact, take off your rose coloured glasses and realise the average thai receives nothing from any dept.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Blackheart

[Blackheart]

No lie necessary when talking about Thailand, it's an absolute mess in many ways.

Sit there and talk about progression, not even worth a mention, what have they progressed to, how far have they come.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think Thailand is going to hell in a hand basket. But so is the rest of the world. I know of many,many Thai,s in labour making the same daily or monthly wage they did 10 years ago and costs have doubled.My wife has 2 university degrees and works at a school for 8,000 baht a month. Inflation is high.and wages do not keep up. Education is non existant. I know guys foreigners who were high school drop outs teaching english at Thai high school,s. The diet of most Thai,s now is sugar and ajinomoto, making American junk food look healthy.Family the most important part of Thai culture is being lost with the young becoming westernised. The old are being forgotten and left alone where before they were taken care of by the next generation,and government has not stepped in to assist them. Corruption is so costly. Before corruption added up to 30% to contracts now it reachs as high as 100%. Crimes against tourists has risen dramatically..

I have seem only one positive . there are more hospitals and clinics than before but the staff is poorly educated so does it matter they are there?

I tend to concur with your overall assessment, but there are a few other positives. Technology has improved over the years, in terms of the Internet access and mobile technology. There's more of an international presence of products and stores than was available in the past. But beyond that, I don't see a long list of positives.

On the flip side, one might argue, yes, Thailand is making progress, if by that you mean progress in going back to the stone ages (rhetorically speaking)...

Lack of a responsive government, lack of law enforcement, lack of an impartial/unbiased justice system, senseless violence aimed at both Thais and foreigners, continuing carnage on the roads that no one in authority seems serious about addressing, endemic corruption. freedom of speech and freedom of the press curtailed, etc etc etc.

[Blackheart]

I think Thailand is going to hell in a hand basket. But so is the rest of the world. I know of many,many Thai,s in labour making the same daily or monthly wage they did 10 years ago and costs have doubled.My wife has 2 university degrees and works at a school for 8,000 baht a month. Inflation is high.and wages do not keep up. Education is non existant. I know guys foreigners who were high school drop outs teaching english at Thai high school,s. The diet of most Thai,s now is sugar and ajinomoto, making American junk food look healthy.Family the most important part of Thai culture is being lost with the young becoming westernised. The old are being forgotten and left alone where before they were taken care of by the next generation,and government has not stepped in to assist them. Corruption is so costly. Before corruption added up to 30% to contracts now it reachs as high as 100%. Crimes against tourists has risen dramatically..

I have seem only one positive . there are more hospitals and clinics than before but the staff is poorly educated so does it matter they are there?

I tend to concur with your overall assessment, but there are a few other positives. Technology has improved over the years, in terms of the Internet access and mobile technology. There's more of an international presence of products and stores than was available in the past. But beyond that, I don't see a long list of positives.

On the flip side, one might argue, yes, Thailand is making progress, if by that you mean progress in going back to the stone ages (rhetorically speaking)...

Lack of a responsive government, lack of law enforcement, lack of an impartial/unbiased justice system, senseless violence aimed at both Thais and foreigners, continuing carnage on the roads that no one in authority seems serious about addressing, endemic corruption. freedom of speech and freedom of the press curtailed, etc etc etc.

Exactly

[melvinmelvin]

OP said that he has stayed in LoS half a generation? How long is a generation? 50 years? Half of that should make about 25 years.

Any progress in that time span?

I have stayed in LoS permanently for the past 4 years, but visited LoS more than a 100 times over the past 30 years.

I think I see vast improvements over the past 30 years.

Education is improved, even children of low income Thais stay way longer at school now compared to 30 years ago.

Health services are vastly improved. Hospitals all over the place and people can afford to visit for cheaper stuff.

Various pension schemes have been introduced for elderly, even for "handicapped" people.

In rural areas most people have electricity and most people have water supplied by local government.

An increasing number of people have opinions on politics.

Increased awareness about healthy food.

Increased awareness about drinking/smoking.

An increasing number of people stand up for environmental issues.

Communications (telecom, broadcasting, long distance transport, road network, postal services) vastly improved.

Industry, increasing increasing increasing.

Awareness about undesired pregnancy, improved vastly.

Awareness about STD improved vastly.

People can afford TVs.

People can afford cellular phones.

Lots of people can afford cars and/or motorcycles. The freedom to easily move around is a big improvement.

----

----

I think the list of improvements is VERY long.

Of course there are dark aspects as well.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

You have a long list of "awarenesses" there.

But being aware of things doesn't mean the underlying problem is getting any better.

Awareness may be up, but are STD, teen pregnancy, domestic violence, etc etc rates down over the years?

I don't know. But I don't get the impression they are to any great degree.

Just look at this year. The govt. make a supposedly big push and campaign to reduce all the senseless road carnage over the Songkran holidays. So what was the result? More road deaths than in any prior Song Kran on record.

Just being better aware of things isn't the same as actually resolving the problem.

[melvinmelvin]

fair enough, you have a point

although your Songkran/traffic bit I don't really agree with

its as bad as ever, and it will be the same next year and the year after next and the year after that

I don't really see that improving in the foreseeable future

(I think there are other parameters leading to the Songkran carnage than driving skills/policing/training before getting a DL etc etc)

[AZBill]

When you see a video of drunk Thai men kicking in the head of an elderly female tourist and her family it's time to vacation somewhere else.

[Blackheart]

Put it this way.

If a grossly obese woman loses one kilo it's progress, still a long way off being attractive.

I LOVE Thailand but it has a ways to go and may well never get there.

[ardokano]

From my wife's family whose members spent between 4 and 6 years in school, we now have the next generation of kids , 8 of which graduated from college or university. I'd say that's progress.

A Thai university? Its not "how long" you spend there its "what your'e taught"

they were taught very well

In 2007 the question to draw a right angle with ruler and compass. of more than 10 people one could not. all of them ask protractor ruler..

And many another thinks..

and this is engineering degree

And many another thinks CANT..

which in many countries know after graduation shool.

what you are comparing very well?

[ardokano]

youre quite mistaken. our family did well because they worked hard and sacrificed for their children who in turn worked and studied. it had nothing to do with connections.

my niece graduated with one degree 2 years ago and makes 15,000 a month. tell your wife to change schools

I'm in a nightmare could not have dreamed that my child with higher education will work for 15k B in Thailand.

[Bender]

you know what, just go to Cambodia or Vietnam and have a talk there with the young student. There are a lot of hope.

Then come back here, and spend some time with the thai youth, then you realize this country is still stuck in the middle age.

With a narrow mind, you will achieve nothing.

[willyumiii]

I'm not sure how foreigners can possibly answer this question. As an American, if the OP were to ask me: USA - is it making real progress?....I would have to ask him his definition of "progress." For Thailand, yes there has been progress in Information Technology, medical advancement, infrastructure, globalization, etc. Not so much in terms of inequality, corruption, political divisiveness, the environment, etc. I will say that in the 10+ years I've been here, Thailand has improved for me personally.

If the guy has lived here for so long, of course he can answer the question from his perspective. People may not agree but its his perception. For me Thailand is more in the news than 15 years ago and has improved in some respects. some infrastructure has improved, in Bangkok and the rural areas. Most people have the internet and a mobile phone so communication has improved. more people have cars so personal transport is more prevalent, although the damage to the roads is questionable. I could go on but won't for now.

The point I was trying to make is even as an American, with intimate knowledge of the USA and its history, I would still have a difficult time answering that question pertaining to America. So I would imagine foreigners (anywhere) would have a difficult time answering that question, except in the most basic, superficial sense.

As an American who pays attention to what goes on in my home country, I have no problem telling you that the country is going into the toilet fast..

[willyumiii]

When you see a video of drunk Thai men kicking in the head of an elderly female tourist and her family it's time to vacation somewhere else.

and when you see videos of police in America beating, shooting and killing innocent people, do you want to be there ?

[spidermike007]

Not sure what the OP is thinking, or where he is getting the evidence from. I would like to see it. From my point of view:

Education: Thailand currently ranks as one of the lowest in Asia. There is little progress being made on the improvement of the system, or the curriculum. Currently, according to friends of mine, who are teachers, you cannot fail as student. The loss of face is too great. So, cheating is allowed. Little actual learning takes place. Thailand lags way, way behind it's neighbors, when it comes to education, and it appears the elite want to keep it that way. It is deliberate.

Corruption: Thailand ranks 76 on the Transparency International survey. That is relatively low for the region. Burma and Laos are far worse. Has any improvement been made lately? Depends on who you talk to, I suppose.

In 2012, Thailand ranked 88th but fell 14 spots this year to 102. She said Thailand now was par with Ecuador, Moldova, and Panama.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/12884

Death on the roads: Second in the world, behind Libya. Koh Samui is number one in the world by a huge margin, per capita. Virtually no improvement over the past several years. Virtually no traffic safety enforcement, nationwide. Hugely incompetent police force.

Nationwide trash: Whenever I am in Issan, I am astonished at the sheer volume of roadside trash. There is little in the way of trash pickup in many of the villages. Whenever I am in Bangkok, walking down the street, it can take me up to 20 minutes, while holding onto refuse, to find a bin. They could do alot better than that. There seems to be very little concern about the nationwide trash issue.

Law enforcement: Some of the worst in the world. Virtually no concern about public safety. No traffic safety whatsoever. The police are essential a revenue collection department. Very, very little actual law enforcement. This does not seem to be improving. Very poor forensics. And many crimes are solved in what appears to be a highly political manner, such as the B2 and the Dark Tao murders.

It was Christmas Eve and I was at the upstairs area of a terrace bar in the Silom Road area having a late-night drink. At around 2 a.m. I called it a night and descended to the ground floor. There I saw half a dozen police officers searching the premises and interrogating the bartender, who was handcuffed on a chair. An officer detained me straight away. “What’s going on?” I asked, identifying myself as a journalist.

He made a menacing fist at me, which convinced me to pipe down. About 15 minutes later, another police officer produced a bag of white powder, shook it near my face and accused me of buying it. I emphatically denied the claim. Meanwhile, other police officers began helping themselves to drinks from the bar. When the bartender protested, they kicked him in the shins.

Eventually, a police officer took me outside where a Thai woman told me if I paid the equivalent of $15,200, I would be released. I told her I hadn’t done anything and would not pay a cent. I was taken back inside, where officers had now detained another four Westerners present at the bar. They then took all five of us in taxis to a nearby police station without a word of explanation.

http://time.com/3674200/thailand-tourism-police-corruption-shakedown-extortion/

Income tax evasion: No idea about the facts, but I hear the tax base is very low, and that more than 80% of the economy is underground.

Domestic loans: Again, I have little knowledge about this.

Human trafficking: Very, very little improvement. The slave trade continues within the fishing industry. Few CEO's who run companies employing slave labor are ever arrested, or taken to task for this. Few traffickers are ever arrested, as many are connected, or in power.

Etc.: The tourism industry is a dramatic state of decline. The PM is doing everything within his power to sabotage it, willingly or not, by not being able to keep his mouth closed, and continually saying very ignorant things about foreigners. Visa policy does not help either, as well as bad PR from the many incidents lately, the distrust of the police, and the officials, etc. Chinese tourism is growing, so they can claim the numbers. But revenues are way, way down, across the board in this industry.

​Import duties stifle many industries such as the wine industry. If they had a reasonable duty of 100%, instead of the nearly 400% duty on wine, the industry would be vibrant, and would be generating billions of dollars annually. Instead it continues to be an anemic industry. Why? Because some guy bought off a parliamentarian long ago, who passed anti-farang wine legislation to protect four incredibly inferior wineries, that generate little revenue for the government. Real wisdom guided policy.

I could go on and on. But, I won't. There are few here that have any sort of vision toward the future, and even fewer who are willing to make sacrifices now, to ensure a better future for their country. Where will that lead? Personally, I believe the economy here will continue to shrink, and Thailand's place in the world, and the region, will continue to drop, as it has been doing for the past 10 years or so.

[MikeyIdea]

fair enough, you have a point

although your Songkran/traffic bit I don't really agree with

its as bad as ever, and it will be the same next year and the year after next and the year after that

I don't really see that improving in the foreseeable future

(I think there are other parameters leading to the Songkran carnage than driving skills/policing/training before getting a DL etc etc)

Traffic in Bangkok has improved a lot the last 20 years with the introduction of flyovers and out-of-the-way mass-transit. It used to take 40 minutes in average during rush hour to go from seeyaek Huaykwang to seeyak asaamaataa as it was called back then (by Yaohan) in 1992. The same trip takes 25 minutes in average today

Songkran traffic is a bit better I think but not much... I think it was the worst around 2000 to 2005, sometimes 3 hours from Suttisarn to Saraburi

[MikeyIdea]

Not sure what the OP is thinking, or where he is getting the evidence from. I would like to see it. From my point of view:

*************

Death on the roads: Second in the world, behind Libya. Koh Samui is number one in the world by a huge margin, per capita. Virtually no improvement over the past several years. Virtually no traffic safety enforcement, nationwide. Hugely incompetent police force.

Nationwide trash: Whenever I am in Issan, I am astonished at the sheer volume of roadside trash. There is little in the way of trash pickup in many of the villages. Whenever I am in Bangkok, walking down the street, it can take me up to 20 minutes, while holding onto refuse, to find a bin. They could do alot better than that. There seems to be very little concern about the nationwide trash issue.

**************

I could go on and on. But, I won't. There are few here that have any sort of vision toward the future, and even fewer who are willing to make sacrifices now, to ensure a better future for their country. Where will that lead? Personally, I believe the economy here will continue to shrink, and Thailand's place in the world, and the region, will continue to drop, as it has been doing for the past 10 years or so.

I see a very big difference in death on the roads. It was impossible to drive to from BKK to Phuket or Pattaya to Bangkok 25 years ago without seeing bad accidents. Today I quite often do those trips without seeing a single accident

Garbage: Bangkok was dirty 25 years ago, it looks pretty clean today so big! difference there. I agree with upcountry, very small or no difference

Bangkok flooding: Big difference. Sukhumvit Rd is rarely over 25 cm nowadays and it drains away quickly. It could be 50-60 cm 25 years ago and much more than that in the early 80s and it took a long time to drain away

Edited May 4, 2016 by MikeyIdea