UDD calls for international observation of referendum

[Baerboxer]

You folks will complain about anything. He is calling for fair elections, not elections that somehow favour redshirts. Are you against the very concept of fair elections? Oh yes, and its all Thaksin's fault.

Unbelievable la la land of smiles.

Maybe he should start by calling for fair elections to the UDD leadership team?

Please remind us all, what was the election process and procedures in which Jatuporn, and all those others were elected by the UDD membership?

He's trying to imply it won't be fair now. Presumably because he can't order his street thugs into action to bribe, threaten, intimidate and use violence to help others decide how to vote.

UDD / PTP - love the law, but of course never applies to themselves.

[Baerboxer]

@ In Town

So, pray tell us how the current UDD leadership team were "elected" to office?

Do you see the irony in these people claiming to support democracy whilst be somehow appointed to their roles by person or persons unknown (unknown to those who wish to pretend Thaksin doesn't control the UDD, finance it, or greatly influence it that is).

So please, share your thoughts on how the UDD leaders were appointed.

[Srikcir]

On April 24^th Suthep's People’s Democratic Reform Committee Foundation announced its complete and unabashed support of the Meechai draft charter. There was not a single exception or criticism to any Article or provision within an Article.

On the other hand, Abhisit and the Democrats have criticized several articles and provisions within some Articles. Democrat party executives had collected the opinions of its members most of whom felt that there are more demerits in the draft charter than its merits. Abhisit has said that the party did not oppose the draft in its entirety but would not accept it either because of several political factors.

So it remains as to whether the Democrats will join the PTP’s call for international monitoring. A Democrat call for international monitoring can only enhance legitimacy to the party’s grievances against the draft and perhaps gain public recognition. Abhisit is being upended by Suthep in a political power play and irregularities found by the monitoring groups that favor the junta draft passage would keep Abhisit in the limelight as a leading political leader.

[phoenixdoglover]

Oh yes, you are right. How could I have forgotten that they muzzled Suthep, Abhisit and Issara, and closed down Blue Sky TV. Yes, neither the Democrats or PAD or PDRC were ever allow to spew their filthy hatred on the airwaves or in print. Newspapers everywhere were prevented from reporting news, and political parties were not allowed to meet. Yes, I think I remember now.

you seem to be somebody who tries to derail this thread - the subject is not Suthep, Abhisit, Issara

stick to the subject please

It's not derailing.

UDD made an appeal for international monitoring of the referendum.

Bluespunk made an ad hominem remark (criticizing the messenger, rather than the message).

The argument is now whether the ad hominem was fair or unfair.

Note: this sequence is a staple of the threads on this forum and must be allowed to devolve to its usual conclusion of petty bickering. Cue rubl for some tangential rhetoric regarding a convicted fugitive.

[Baerboxer]

No, he's being a hypocrite in calling for things he never allowed.

Complete and utter bullcrap. The UDD and Jataporn never ever have tried to limit speech or prevent anyone from participating in elections. You have somehow inverted reality in your own mind, but just because you say it doesn't make it true in any way. We all know who controls speech and prevents fair elections, and it is not the UDD. Its not even Thaksin.

THe UDD are the antithesis of free speech and their bully boy tactics while PT were in power created climates of fear.

Their attempts to prevent any event allowing political views they disagreed with were frequent and always threatened violence if they didn't get their way shows their utter disregard for free speech.

Oh yes, you are right. How could I have forgotten that they muzzled Suthep, Abhisit and Issara, and closed down Blue Sky TV. Yes, neither the Democrats or PAD or PDRC were ever allow to spew their filthy hatred on the airwaves or in print. Newspapers everywhere were prevented from reporting news, and political parties were not allowed to meet. Yes, I think I remember now.

Perhaps your selective memory remembers their attacks on peaceful protesters who dares challenge PTP's clumsy attempts to whitewash Thaksin, the crook you claim has little to do with UDD.

Or does your amnesia recall the murder of little children and how it was warmly applauded and cheered by Red Shirt leaders and PTP members at a public rally with the terds on the platform leading those cheers?

And the impartial RTP simply looked on and even under the control of super sleuths Chalerm and Tarit never managed to catch and charge anyone. Even those who fell into their clutches for shooting at anti Shin protesters were somehow let go without charges.

Use of the defamation laws, computer crimes laws, shooting at people, lobbing grenades and bombs, throwing shit and HIV infected blood, burning coffins outside the homes of people they didn't like with photos of those people attached, suggesting kidnapping of the current PM's daughters, threatening the families of farmers who protested because PTP lied about paying them - and all under the command of their non democratically elected appointed by schhhh we know who leaders.

UDD - easy to see why you think they're such a democratic independent organization. Can you show one instance where they ever criticized or opposed Thaksin, Yingluck or the PTP?

[Baerboxer]

On April 24^th Suthep's People’s Democratic Reform Committee Foundation announced its complete and unabashed support of the Meechai draft charter. There was not a single exception or criticism to any Article or provision within an Article.

On the other hand, Abhisit and the Democrats have criticized several articles and provisions within some Articles. Democrat party executives had collected the opinions of its members most of whom felt that there are more demerits in the draft charter than its merits. Abhisit has said that the party did not oppose the draft in its entirety but would not accept it either because of several political factors.

So it remains as to whether the Democrats will join the PTP’s call for international monitoring. A Democrat call for international monitoring can only enhance legitimacy to the party’s grievances against the draft and perhaps gain public recognition. Abhisit is being upended by Suthep in a political power play and irregularities found by the monitoring groups that favor the junta draft passage would keep Abhisit in the limelight as a leading political leader.

Perhaps you care to explain the democratic way the UDD leadership has been "elected" in their positions as grandees?

Or maybe on their behavior which was anything but supportive of democracy or law and order?

Just misunderstood arsonists, terrorists and thugs?

[In Town]

THe UDD are the antithesis of free speech and their bully boy tactics while PT were in power created climates of fear.

Complete and utter bullcrap. The UDD and Jataporn never ever have tried to limit speech or prevent anyone from participating in elections. You have somehow inverted reality in your own mind, but just because you say it doesn't make it true in any way. We all know who controls speech and prevents fair elections, and it is not the UDD. Its not even Thaksin.

Their attempts to prevent any event allowing political views they disagreed with were frequent and always threatened violence if they didn't get their way shows their utter disregard for free speech.

Oh yes, you are right. How could I have forgotten that they muzzled Suthep, Abhisit and Issara, and closed down Blue Sky TV. Yes, neither the Democrats or PAD or PDRC were ever allow to spew their filthy hatred on the airwaves or in print. Newspapers everywhere were prevented from reporting news, and political parties were not allowed to meet. Yes, I think I remember now.

Perhaps your selective memory remembers their attacks on peaceful protesters who dares challenge PTP's clumsy attempts to whitewash Thaksin, the crook you claim has little to do with UDD.

Or does your amnesia recall the murder of little children and how it was warmly applauded and cheered by Red Shirt leaders and PTP members at a public rally with the terds on the platform leading those cheers?

And the impartial RTP simply looked on and even under the control of super sleuths Chalerm and Tarit never managed to catch and charge anyone. Even those who fell into their clutches for shooting at anti Shin protesters were somehow let go without charges.

Use of the defamation laws, computer crimes laws, shooting at people, lobbing grenades and bombs, throwing shit and HIV infected blood, burning coffins outside the homes of people they didn't like with photos of those people attached, suggesting kidnapping of the current PM's daughters, threatening the families of farmers who protested because PTP lied about paying them - and all under the command of their non democratically elected appointed by schhhh we know who leaders.

UDD - easy to see why you think they're such a democratic independent organization. Can you show one instance where they ever criticized or opposed Thaksin, Yingluck or the PTP?

Well, I suspect its pointless, but just for fun I would like to respond to your last statement. UDD opposed the amnesty law that sparked the PDRC shutdown and led directly to the coup (the aim of the shutdown).

[phoenixdoglover]

THe UDD are the antithesis of free speech and their bully boy tactics while PT were in power created climates of fear.

Complete and utter bullcrap. The UDD and Jataporn never ever have tried to limit speech or prevent anyone from participating in elections. You have somehow inverted reality in your own mind, but just because you say it doesn't make it true in any way. We all know who controls speech and prevents fair elections, and it is not the UDD. Its not even Thaksin.

Their attempts to prevent any event allowing political views they disagreed with were frequent and always threatened violence if they didn't get their way shows their utter disregard for free speech.

Oh yes, you are right. How could I have forgotten that they muzzled Suthep, Abhisit and Issara, and closed down Blue Sky TV. Yes, neither the Democrats or PAD or PDRC were ever allow to spew their filthy hatred on the airwaves or in print. Newspapers everywhere were prevented from reporting news, and political parties were not allowed to meet. Yes, I think I remember now.

Perhaps your selective memory remembers their attacks on peaceful protesters who dares challenge PTP's clumsy attempts to whitewash Thaksin, the crook you claim has little to do with UDD.

Or does your amnesia recall the murder of little children and how it was warmly applauded and cheered by Red Shirt leaders and PTP members at a public rally with the terds on the platform leading those cheers?

And the impartial RTP simply looked on and even under the control of super sleuths Chalerm and Tarit never managed to catch and charge anyone. Even those who fell into their clutches for shooting at anti Shin protesters were somehow let go without charges.

Use of the defamation laws, computer crimes laws, shooting at people, lobbing grenades and bombs, throwing shit and HIV infected blood, burning coffins outside the homes of people they didn't like with photos of those people attached, suggesting kidnapping of the current PM's daughters, threatening the families of farmers who protested because PTP lied about paying them - and all under the command of their non democratically elected appointed by schhhh we know who leaders.

UDD - easy to see why you think they're such a democratic independent organization. Can you show one instance where they ever criticized or opposed Thaksin, Yingluck or the PTP?

Well, I suspect its pointless, but just for fun I would like to respond to your last statement. UDD opposed the amnesty law that sparked the PDRC shutdown and led directly to the coup (the aim of the shutdown).

Finally, someone has stated what was well documented at the time; an inconvenient twist in an otherwise unblemished narrative.

When it comes to Thai politics, it is not wise to generalize.

[halloween]

Well, I suspect its pointless, but just for fun I would like to respond to your last statement. UDD opposed the amnesty law that sparked the PDRC shutdown and led directly to the coup (the aim of the shutdown).

How brave of them to risk their stipend! A pity that bravery didn't last until the parliamentary vote (you do know that quite a few UDD "leaders" are also PTP party list MPs?)

BTW they spoke in opposition to amnesty for Abhisit and Suthep; they were apparently fine and dandy for an amnesty for the man who pays them, and for themselves.

[In Town]

Well, I suspect its pointless, but just for fun I would like to respond to your last statement. UDD opposed the amnesty law that sparked the PDRC shutdown and led directly to the coup (the aim of the shutdown).

How brave of them to risk their stipend! A pity that bravery didn't last until the parliamentary vote (you do know that quite a few UDD "leaders" are also PTP party list MPs?)

BTW they spoke in opposition to amnesty for Abhisit and Suthep; they were apparently fine and dandy for an amnesty for the man who pays them, and for themselves.

Yes, I agree with all you say here. But that doesn't in any way undermine the argument. The contention here is that the UDD is not independent of Thaksin. But the truth is that Thaksin was fine with an amnesty for the murder charges against Suthep and Abhisit. He is an old-style politician and understands and supports impunity for elites. The UDD, on the other hand, stands for equal justice, and an end to the double standards that allow the rich (be they politicians or the sons and daughters of billionaires) to literally get away with murder. The difference between their perception of Thaksin and their perception of Suthep and Abhisit is that they think the charges against Thaksin were politically motivated and without merit and unjust, while they think those against Abhisit and Suthep (that they ordered the killing of their friends and colleagues) entirely justified.

[tukkytuktuk]

The United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship Chairman Jatuporn Promphan's speech yesterday at Imperial Lad Phrao shopping mall. Moving speech, looking for a translated version, if anyone can help?

[halloween]

Well, I suspect its pointless, but just for fun I would like to respond to your last statement. UDD opposed the amnesty law that sparked the PDRC shutdown and led directly to the coup (the aim of the shutdown).

How brave of them to risk their stipend! A pity that bravery didn't last until the parliamentary vote (you do know that quite a few UDD "leaders" are also PTP party list MPs?)

BTW they spoke in opposition to amnesty for Abhisit and Suthep; they were apparently fine and dandy for an amnesty for the man who pays them, and for themselves.

Yes, I agree with all you say here. But that doesn't in any way undermine the argument. The contention here is that the UDD is not independent of Thaksin. But the truth is that Thaksin was fine with an amnesty for the murder charges against Suthep and Abhisit. He is an old-style politician and understands and supports impunity for elites. The UDD, on the other hand, stands for equal justice, and an end to the double standards that allow the rich (be they politicians or the sons and daughters of billionaires) to literally get away with murder. The difference between their perception of Thaksin and their perception of Suthep and Abhisit is that they think the charges against Thaksin were politically motivated and without merit and unjust, while they think those against Abhisit and Suthep (that they ordered the killing of their friends and colleagues) entirely justified.

Actions talk, BS walks. UDD are mercenary agitators and propagandists, loyal only to the man who selects and pays them, allowed a tad of independence to maintain popularity, and follow the party line of "We dun nuffink rong!".

Abhisit didn't ask for, want or need amnesty from the baseless charges brought against him.

[jesimps]

You folks will complain about anything. He is calling for fair elections, not elections that somehow favour redshirts. Are you against the very concept of fair elections? Oh yes, and its all Thaksin's fault.

Unbelievable la la land of smiles.

No, he's being a hypocrite in calling for things he never allowed.

Typical "but but Thaksin response of the people on here. Not interested in the proposal itself, just in knocking the ones who proposed it. Given the junta's track record so far, I'd say this was a damned fine request.

[heybruce]

Many people are obsessing over the acronym "UDD". Try focusing on the remainder of the headline:

"__________ Calls for International Observation of Referendum"

I don't care what name you fill in the blank with, I agree. In fact, I won't trust the referendum results without international monitoring.

[craigt3365]

Well, I suspect its pointless, but just for fun I would like to respond to your last statement. UDD opposed the amnesty law that sparked the PDRC shutdown and led directly to the coup (the aim of the shutdown).

How brave of them to risk their stipend! A pity that bravery didn't last until the parliamentary vote (you do know that quite a few UDD "leaders" are also PTP party list MPs?)

BTW they spoke in opposition to amnesty for Abhisit and Suthep; they were apparently fine and dandy for an amnesty for the man who pays them, and for themselves.

Yes, I agree with all you say here. But that doesn't in any way undermine the argument. The contention here is that the UDD is not independent of Thaksin. But the truth is that Thaksin was fine with an amnesty for the murder charges against Suthep and Abhisit. He is an old-style politician and understands and supports impunity for elites. The UDD, on the other hand, stands for equal justice, and an end to the double standards that allow the rich (be they politicians or the sons and daughters of billionaires) to literally get away with murder. The difference between their perception of Thaksin and their perception of Suthep and Abhisit is that they think the charges against Thaksin were politically motivated and without merit and unjust, while they think those against Abhisit and Suthep (that they ordered the killing of their friends and colleagues) entirely justified.

If I remember correctly, the amnesty for Abhisit and Suthep included one for Thaksin also (among many others). It would have been a stand up thing for him to say the amnesty was OK for them, but not him. Of course, we know that would have never happened. Plus, the charges against the former 2 were BS. The ones against Thaksin were not, and were proven so by the courts.

The last part of your comment is spot on. And thus, the political divide. Impossible for many Thais to admit failure. This face saving thing is a big problem here.

[jesimps]

brought to you by the same team that thought it was ok to have the opposition party removed from parliament by the riot squad so they could pass their biased and corrupt bills in the middle of the night.

Karma is a bitch

As opposed to having the whole govt, and thus democracy removed by the military.

[Bluespunk]

You folks will complain about anything. He is calling for fair elections, not elections that somehow favour redshirts. Are you against the very concept of fair elections? Oh yes, and its all Thaksin's fault.

Unbelievable la la land of smiles.

No, he's being a hypocrite in calling for things he never allowed.

Typical "but but Thaksin response of the people on here. Not interested in the proposal itself, just in knocking the ones who proposed it. Given the junta's track record so far, I'd say this was a damned fine request.

Where did I mention the criminal fugitive? Please be specific and exact.

[halloween]

You folks will complain about anything. He is calling for fair elections, not elections that somehow favour redshirts. Are you against the very concept of fair elections? Oh yes, and its all Thaksin's fault.

Unbelievable la la land of smiles.

No, he's being a hypocrite in calling for things he never allowed.

Typical "but but Thaksin response of the people on here. Not interested in the proposal itself, just in knocking the ones who proposed it. Given the junta's track record so far, I'd say this was a damned fine request.

Do red glasses filter out hypocrisy as well as criminality?

[sweatalot]

brought to you by the same team that thought it was ok to have the opposition party removed from parliament by the riot squad so they could pass their biased and corrupt bills in the middle of the night.

Karma is a bitch

As opposed to having the whole govt, and thus democracy removed by the military.

As opposed to think the shin governments were democratic (honest, transparent and acting in the interest of the people not in the interest of their bank accounts)

Edited April 25, 2016 by sweatalot

[jesimps]

Difficult to comprehend people on TVF. What could have been an interesting discussion on whether or not outside observers would be a good thing during the charter referendum, has turned into a thread knocking the UDD.There's more dripping on here than a leaky tap.

Edited April 25, 2016 by jesimps

[halloween]

Difficult to comprehend people on TVF. What could have been an interesting discussion on whether or not outside observers would be a good thing during the charter referendum, has turned into a thread knocking the UDD.There's more dripping on here than a leaky tap.

If you think it would be so interesting, why have you avoided the subject in favour of criticising other posters?

[Bluespunk]

Difficult to comprehend people on TVF. What could have been an interesting discussion on whether or not outside observers would be a good thing during the charter referendum, has turned into a thread knocking the UDD.There's more dripping on here than a leaky tap.

If you think it would be so interesting, why have you avoided the subject in favour of criticising other posters?

And not always being too accurate in his accusations...

[heybruce]

Difficult to comprehend people on TVF. What could have been an interesting discussion on whether or not outside observers would be a good thing during the charter referendum, has turned into a thread knocking the UDD.There's more dripping on here than a leaky tap.

If you think it would be so interesting, why have you avoided the subject in favour of criticising other posters?

Good idea! Everybody, FOCUS ON THE SUBJECT! Is it a good idea for the referendum to be internationally monitored?

I say yes. I say the referendum will have no credibility unless it is monitored by a credible outside organization. Anyone disagree?

[In Town]

Difficult to comprehend people on TVF. What could have been an interesting discussion on whether or not outside observers would be a good thing during the charter referendum, has turned into a thread knocking the UDD.There's more dripping on here than a leaky tap.

I think it would be a good idea, regardless of who proposed it.

[marinediscoking]

Seems to me after reading the above that most of posters are adamantly opposed to international observers because of who recommended it. Mention the name Jatuporn and it must be bad for the country, full stop. This is the very reason why Thailand is where it is at today, opposition is not to be heard or tolerated. Critical thinking is no where to be found.

[candide]

Difficult to comprehend people on TVF. What could have been an interesting discussion on whether or not outside observers would be a good thing during the charter referendum, has turned into a thread knocking the UDD.There's more dripping on here than a leaky tap.

It's because there aren't arguments against the presence of international observers so it's better for them to divert the topic.

[JAG]

brought to you by the same team that thought it was ok to have the opposition party removed from parliament by the riot squad so they could pass their biased and corrupt bills in the middle of the night.

Karma is a bitch

I seem to remember the " riot squad clearing parliament" being raised before. I wasn't in Thailand then but I'm pretty sure lots of us would have noticed. and it would certainly been widely reported. I asked then for some links or references to prove that it happened. Answer came there non! So I'll ask again, were riot police used to clear the opposition from the chamber of parliament before a vote was held, or is an " urban myth"?

[phoenixdoglover]

In another thread just up:

Gen Prawit said he disagrees with having an international organization monitoring the referendum as it is not a general election.

See, there is at least one person against the idea.

[Bluespunk]

Seems to me after reading the above that most of posters are adamantly opposed to international observers because of who recommended it. Mention the name Jatuporn and it must be bad for the country, full stop. This is the very reason why Thailand is where it is at today, opposition is not to be heard or tolerated. Critical thinking is no where to be found.

Nope, just pointing out the hypocrisy of the man proposing it.

Never criticised the idea.

Just the hypocrisy of it's proposer.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Bluespunk

[JAG]

Oh yes, you are right. How could I have forgotten that they muzzled Suthep, Abhisit and Issara, and closed down Blue Sky TV. Yes, neither the Democrats or PAD or PDRC were ever allow to spew their filthy hatred on the airwaves or in print. Newspapers everywhere were prevented from reporting news, and political parties were not allowed to meet. Yes, I think I remember now.

you seem to be somebody who tries to derail this thread - the subject is not Suthep, Abhisit, Issara

stick to the subject please

It's not derailing.

UDD made an appeal for international monitoring of the referendum.

Bluespunk made an ad hominem remark (criticizing the messenger, rather than the message).

The argument is now whether the ad hominem was fair or unfair.

Note: this sequence is a staple of the threads on this forum and must be allowed to devolve to its usual conclusion of petty bickering. Cue rubl for some tangential rhetoric regarding a convicted fugitive.

...and the" amply rich. Don.t forget the"amply rich"!