Gay couple wins custody battle against Thai surrogate mother

[JUDAS]

It would be interesting if the people who are so strongly against the two daddies scenario could provide us with details as to what horrors the child will be subjected to? Dont mention the prospect of bullying, kids are bullied for having glasses and being fat and the solution is not banning glasses.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/news/babies-toddlers-becoming-targets-paedophiles/1927425/

Well heres one possibilty.

Not likely agreed...but possible

Indeed, not likely. And off course anything is possible, a pedophile mother even but I won't post a meaningless link.

[SoiBiker]

Which homosexual posters?

Oh dear...take off those silly glasses and actually read the posts. If it's not self-evident....on yer bike.

I get the impression you think anyone who supports these guys must be gay themselves.

That would just be silly, though.

[DM07]

Which homosexual posters?

Oh dear...take off those silly glasses and actually read the posts. If it's not self-evident....on yer bike.

Come on...name some!

Otherwise keep your condescending crap for yourself!

[smotherb]

How is the child going to handle it, never mind these guys? Goes to school and tells everyone at school this is my dad and this is my dad. How do they explain were the mother is? I would think it would potentially cause a lot of psychological issues for the child. What the adults go through I am not interested in but it is the child that will have the difficult time

Well,what about, "My mother is a Thai who no longer takes care of me, but I have two dads who love me and take care of me very well."

[Johnniey]

Some people will dance around but never actually come straight out and say they are against these guys raising this child because the are gay.

I don't think so. But many including me are against it as they aren't just raising the child, it was all planned through dodgy surrogacy agencies. This is immoral, two gay men, who obv. can't have children together buying an egg then buying a woman to carry it. Disgusting.

However, now you mention it, I've never known a gay couple that I would trust to raise a child. They have all been too emotional, sensitive and promiscuous with mental issues. Could be a coincidence as I've only known about 8 couples.

[SoiBiker]

Some people will dance around but never actually come straight out and say they are against these guys raising this child because the are gay.

I don't think so. But many including me are against it as they aren't just raising the child, it was all planned through dodgy surrogacy agencies. This is immoral, two gay men, who obv. can't have children together buying an egg then buying a woman to carry it. Disgusting.

However, now you mention it, I've never known a gay couple that I would trust to raise a child. They have all been too emotional, sensitive and promiscuous with mental issues. Could be a coincidence as I've only known about 8 couples.

And this is you trying to convince us you're not just prejudiced against gay people?

Wow.

[JUDAS]

Some people will dance around but never actually come straight out and say they are against these guys raising this child because the are gay.

I don't think so. But many including me are against it as they aren't just raising the child, it was all planned through dodgy surrogacy agencies. This is immoral, two gay men, who obv. can't have children together buying an egg then buying a woman to carry it. Disgusting.

However, now you mention it, I've never known a gay couple that I would trust to raise a child. They have all been too emotional, sensitive and promiscuous with mental issues. Could be a coincidence as I've only known about 8 couples.

Well, that's clear for all to see.

[Johnniey]

Some people will dance around but never actually come straight out and say they are against these guys raising this child because the are gay.

I don't think so. But many including me are against it as they aren't just raising the child, it was all planned through dodgy surrogacy agencies. This is immoral, two gay men, who obv. can't have children together buying an egg then buying a woman to carry it. Disgusting.

However, now you mention it, I've never known a gay couple that I would trust to raise a child. They have all been too emotional, sensitive and promiscuous with mental issues. Could be a coincidence as I've only known about 8 couples.

And this is you trying to convince us you're not just prejudiced against gay people?

Wow.

I'm not trying to convince anyone about anything. The fact is I have nothing against gays as long as they know their place(which is not procreating). My own brother is gay and that's why I have known many gay couples. Twist my words as much as you want.

I am not prejudiced against anyone.

[SoiBiker]

Some people will dance around but never actually come straight out and say they are against these guys raising this child because the are gay.

I don't think so. But many including me are against it as they aren't just raising the child, it was all planned through dodgy surrogacy agencies. This is immoral, two gay men, who obv. can't have children together buying an egg then buying a woman to carry it. Disgusting.

However, now you mention it, I've never known a gay couple that I would trust to raise a child. They have all been too emotional, sensitive and promiscuous with mental issues. Could be a coincidence as I've only known about 8 couples.

And this is you trying to convince us you're not just prejudiced against gay people?

Wow.

I'm not trying to convince anyone about anything. The fact is I have nothing against gays as long as they know their place(which is not procreating). My own brother is gay and that's why I have known many gay couples. Twist my words as much as you want.

I am not prejudiced against anyone.

So in other words, you're not prejudiced against them, you just don't think they should have the same rights as straight people?

This place defies belief sometimes.

[Johnniey]

So better not to exist at all than have no Mum. Sounds like something a right to lifer would say.

And right to lifers are not allowed an opinion?

Seems there is more bigotry amongst the homosexual posters in this thread than anyone else.

Standard form of defense in these threads history has shown......brook no argument...just pull the homophobic/bigot card and ignore all reasoned discussion.

If those doesn't work then threaten to put them on the ignore list.

If you can't see them then they don't exist.

See the irony in this?

Very well put. As I said before Homosexuals are not usually very stable individuals. Transgenders are still considered to have a mental disorder. http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf

Even homosexuals were considered to be mentally ill not so long ago, well 1987 the American Psychiatric Association were forced to take them out their manual due to political correctness.

Egodystonic sexual orientation is still classed as a disease by the World health Organization!

http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2014/en#/F66.1

Edited April 27, 2016 by Johnniey

[Johnniey]

I'm not trying to convince anyone about anything. The fact is I have nothing against gays as long as they know their place(which is not procreating). My own brother is gay and that's why I have known many gay couples. Twist my words as much as you want.

I am not prejudiced against anyone.

So in other words, you're not prejudiced against them, you just don't think they should have the same rights as straight people?

This place defies belief sometimes.

You are twisting my words again.

[SoiBiker]

I'm not trying to convince anyone about anything. The fact is I have nothing against gays as long as they know their place(which is not procreating). My own brother is gay and that's why I have known many gay couples. Twist my words as much as you want.

I am not prejudiced against anyone.

So in other words, you're not prejudiced against them, you just don't think they should have the same rights as straight people?

This place defies belief sometimes.

You are twisting my words again.

No, I'm not. I'm just using them against you.

Compare what you wrote about gay people with the following phrases -

'I have nothing against women as long as they know their place (which isn't in the voting booth)'

'I have nothing against black men as long as they know their place (which isn't dating white women)'

Edited April 27, 2016 by SoiBiker

[Johnniey]

You are twisting my words again.

No, I'm not. I'm just using them against you.

Compare what you wrote about gay people with the following phrases -

'I have nothing against women as long as they know their place (which isn't in the voting booth)'

'I have nothing against black men as long as they know their place (which isn't dating white women)'

Now you are being ignorant.

Same sex couples should not be able to procreate using other people's eggs and surrogates is ABSOLUTELY not the same as saying women shouldn't get the vote.

Are you drunk?

[cat handler]

The poor children, two men taking children and pretending they are legitimate parents is wrong, for all the courts know they could be part of a paedophile ring pretending to be a gay couple, even worse is they are taking advantage of poor women in third world counties. These kids will grow to hate what the men have done to them, deprive them of their mother.

[SoiBiker]

You are twisting my words again.

No, I'm not. I'm just using them against you.

Compare what you wrote about gay people with the following phrases -

'I have nothing against women as long as they know their place (which isn't in the voting booth)'

'I have nothing against black men as long as they know their place (which isn't dating white women)'

Now you are being ignorant.

Same sex couples should not be able to procreate using other people's eggs and surrogates is ABSOLUTELY not the same as saying women shouldn't get the vote.

Are you drunk?

But that's not what you said. You just said they shouldn't be allowed to procreate. You also implied they were too emotional, sensitive, promiscuous, and mentally unstable to raise kids. And used the word disgusting.

[Jingthing]

The poor children, two men taking children and pretending they are legitimate parents is wrong, for all the courts know they could be part of a paedophile ring pretending to be a gay couple, even worse is they are taking advantage of poor women in third world counties. These kids will grow to hate what the men have done to them, deprive them of their mother.

I have a more accurate prediction.

These kids will grow up to hate anti-gay BIGOTS!

[Johnniey]

The poor children, two men taking children and pretending they are legitimate parents is wrong, for all the courts know they could be part of a paedophile ring pretending to be a gay couple, even worse is they are taking advantage of poor women in third world counties. These kids will grow to hate what the men have done to them, deprive them of their mother.

I have a more accurate prediction.

These kids will grow up to hate anti-gay BIGOTS!

Pathetic coming out with this anti-gay crap.

He's just saying his opinion, which is valid IMO.

You are a gay man living in Pattaya of all places. It;s obvious your motives ain't it. Feeling a little embarassed?

Edited April 27, 2016 by Johnniey

[cat handler]

Congratulations to the gay couple, and I'm am sure she will be loved and have a wonderful life.

I hope the world can get over the fact that some people and couples are different, I don't care as long as there happy, there is far to much hatred in this world, so legalize gay marriage and get on with life.

Ps I'm not gay but have many friends that are and they are happy people.

But what about the kid.....?

What about the kid? The kid has two loving parents who fought tooth and nail to keep her. What else can she ask for?

A MOTHER

[cat handler]

The poor children, two men taking children and pretending they are legitimate parents is wrong, for all the courts know they could be part of a paedophile ring pretending to be a gay couple, even worse is they are taking advantage of poor women in third world counties. These kids will grow to hate what the men have done to them, deprive them of their mother.

I have a more accurate prediction.

These kids will grow up to hate anti-gay BIGOTS!

Perhaps they will grow to hate gays who denied them a mother for their own selfish desires. Oh that's right it's all about Gay Rights and nothing to do with a Child's Rights. A child has a birth right to have both a mother and a father, this child now has a father and its fathers gay lover.

[Jingthing]

Congratulations to the gay couple, and I'm am sure she will be loved and have a wonderful life.

I hope the world can get over the fact that some people and couples are different, I don't care as long as there happy, there is far to much hatred in this world, so legalize gay marriage and get on with life.

Ps I'm not gay but have many friends that are and they are happy people.

But what about the kid.....?

What about the kid? The kid has two loving parents who fought tooth and nail to keep her. What else can she ask for?

A MOTHER

It's reasonable to hope that their children will have close females in their lives. Reports are they will indeed back in Spain. The same kind of thing we would wish for all children of any description that have non-traditional families, single mothers, single fathers, non-parental guardians, etc. For example in the U.S. there is the "Big Brother" program for sons of single mothers. Often not needed when there are existing close relatives.

In the REAL world instead of BIGOTLANDIA, there are many different kinds of families that can work and indeed work very, very well.

It's hardly the case that "traditional" families necessary have favorable results. Consider the number of hateful BIGOTS that come from them,

Edited April 27, 2016 by Jingthing

[Johnniey]

Congratulations to the gay couple, and I'm am sure she will be loved and have a wonderful life.

I hope the world can get over the fact that some people and couples are different, I don't care as long as there happy, there is far to much hatred in this world, so legalize gay marriage and get on with life.

Ps I'm not gay but have many friends that are and they are happy people.

But what about the kid.....?

What about the kid? The kid has two loving parents who fought tooth and nail to keep her. What else can she ask for?

A MOTHER

They just don't get it, you're wasting you're time.

[SoiBiker]

But what about the kid.....?

What about the kid? The kid has two loving parents who fought tooth and nail to keep her. What else can she ask for?

A MOTHER

They just don't get it, you're wasting you're time.

We get it. We just disagree with it.

[SoiBiker]

Just out of interest, what if a lesbian couple want to raise a child. You cool with that?

[Sawan Chan 7]

The poor children, two men taking children and pretending they are legitimate parents is wrong, for all the courts know they could be part of a paedophile ring pretending to be a gay couple, even worse is they are taking advantage of poor women in third world counties. These kids will grow to hate what the men have done to them, deprive them of their mother.

I have a more accurate prediction.

These kids will grow up to hate anti-gay BIGOTS!

Pathetic coming out with this anti-gay crap.

He's just saying his opinion, which is valid IMO.

You are a gay man living in Pattaya of all places. It;s obvious your motives ain't it. Feeling a little embarassed?

Is he really? Lol.

So should an old farang with a young Pattaya boyfriend be allowed to have a kid?

As ask you jing thong

[SoiBiker]

Knock off the personal stuff guys - try and debate the issue in a mature way.

[NCFC]

There are too many bigoted, oppressive, backward and downright offensive opinions on here to get into yet another debate regarding what I can only see as a positive outcome for common sense and keeping a family unit together....

Congratulations to the Family and to the legal system which avoided bigotry and backwards thinking.

So you think a child being "created" for two blokes is in a child's best interest..?..

I see nothing wrong in planning for an enjoying a happy family.... I know many happy couples who've 'created' a family (IVF), usually more conventional as Husband and Wife...

Having read the media reports and interviews I have no doubt that the Childs best interest will always be closest to the hearts of her parents.

The only issue I foresee is when bigoted opinions are forced upon the family - This is not the fault of the happy family, but the fault of those few in society who have lacked social development, remained stuck in the past and feel the need to force their opinions on an innocent family who are causing no harm to anyone else.

Of course - this debate is just that, a debate on an anonymous internet forum:

Transom: You are a respected member of TV.com and I have enjoyed many of your posts in the past - In fact I remember received a verbal bo!!oking from you regarding a tasteless comment I made a few years ago. It rather surprises me that you are not more open minded about this topic.

Its perfectly acceptable to be a motor-head and also tolerate things which may otherwise conflict with the motor-head stereotype !!

It is clear that this child will grow up in a very loving environment - many children around the World would clearly be very lucky to be given the chance to grow up in such a family.

This topic is re-hashing old arguments heavily debated in this linked thread below.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/905172-gay-parents-fight-for-custody-with-surrogate-in-thailand/

Biology is quite simple and so is evolution for that matter. I'm pretty sure nature knows better than "socially developed societies". In the so called "socially developed societies" you now have really brain dead stuff like "none binary flowergenders".

I agree with your comment: 'Biology is quite Simple and so is Evolution'... for we have evolved, we have evolved and our intelligence permits us do many wondrous things, since 1978 we have been able to conceive through IVF.

Unless of course you'd begrudge childless couples the option to have their own child through IVF because you consider it not natural.

Medicine has advanced our biology - we can replace heart valve where pure nature alone would result in death, we can replace hips and knees, we can perform life saving surgery, we rely on antibiotics and have eradicated numerous deadly diseases with the use of drugs and modern technology...

What about breast milk? Some mothers have been unable to nurse their child and have to rely on breast milk, this child would have potentially died in periods past, but now we have developed Milk-Formula for infants - Is that natural ???

So, by natural do you mean nature as it was in the past ? before technology? before we ourselves evolved ?... Isn't our evolution also natural ?

You see, if you are using this argument it is perhaps because you haven't evolved. Like many of the arguments placed forwards in this topic, many are so fundamentally flawed...

...What you really mean is you don't believe Gay Men should be roll models for kids, but can't find an intelligent and articulate argument to front your opinions....

There is a fundamental difference between using medecine to save or repair a human body and using medecine as a life-style enhancment.

We can marvel at the ability to produce IVF children, but is it morally right when there are so many unwanted and neglected kids in the world already?

It's unfortunate that this case has revolved so much around the fact that the two gentlemen are gay. Much of the blame for that lies in the hands of some of the regular gay posters making it into a gay rights issue, when at heart the issue is whether anyone should be able to come to a third-world country in order to purchase a surrogate baby in order to satisfy a life style choice.

My opinion is that it is economic imperialism. It happened because one party is economically poor and the other party is considerably wealthier. It is explotation in the same way that western companies are accused of exploiting the third world's resources, only of course on a much smaller scale. These gentlemen should not be rewarded for exploiting poverty. Even though the surrogate mother will be financially rewarded the question has to be asked whether she would do the same without payment. I doubt it.

[Jingthing]

Total B.S.

Did you follow this case?

The gay aspect of this case was not started by gay posters on Thaivisa.com. That's an outrageous and totally false attack.

The surrogate women did not claim economic exploitation.

It was all about the gay card.

She claimed she was not informed the parents were a married same sex couple and that she objected to that.

The biological father denied that she wasn't informed beforehand.

As far as surrogacy by foreigners, the Thai government has already banned that.

The issue was NOT on trial here.

What the case was about was CUSTODY of one child who happened to be the result of a surrogacy arrangement that was made BEFORE the law change.

To add, yes I think there are valid arguments to disallow surrogacy by foreigners anywhere or even surrogacy by anyone anywhere.

This case was NOT about that. Maybe start a NEW THREAD if you want to discuss that BROAD issue.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Jingthing

[NCFC]

Total B.S.

Did you follow this case?

The gay aspect of this case was not started by gay posters on Thaivisa.com. That's an outrageous and totally false attack.

The surrogate women did not claim economic exploitation.

It was all about the gay card.

She claimed she was not informed the parents were a married same sex couple and that she objected to that.

The biological father denied that she wasn't informed beforehand.

As far as surrogacy by foreigners, the Thai government has already banned that.

The issue was NOT on trial here.

What the case was about was CUSTODY of one child who happened to be the result of a surrogacy arrangement that was made BEFORE the law change.

To add, yes I think there are valid arguments to disallow surrogacy by foreigners anywhere or even surrogacy by anyone anywhere.

This case was NOT about that. Maybe start a NEW THREAD if you want to discuss that BROAD issue.

The gay aspect of this case was not started by Thaivisa posters, as you say. The gay aspect of this THREAD was started by the gay Thaivisa posters.

To remind you, at the outset this thread started as whether there was a legal contract or not. It later changed to a gay issue and remained so ever since.

The courts ruled in favour of the biological father because it was judged he had the best long term interests of the child at heart. The judgement did not cover his sexuality but it didnt stop the father claiming it was a victory for gay rights. And it hasnt stopped posters in Thaivisa claiming the same. In reality it is a victory for exploiters over the exploited.

[Jingthing]

So now it's the thread, not the case.

Sorry, more and thicker BS.

From you:

It's unfortunate that this case has revolved so much around the fact that the two gentlemen are gay. Much of the blame for that lies in the hands of some of the regular gay posters making it into a gay rights issue, when at heart the issue is whether anyone should be able to come to a third-world country in order to purchase a surrogate baby in order to satisfy a life style choice.

Conveniently, to support your personal attack on "gay posters" you neglect to respond to the point that a key aspect of the case for the surrogate woman getting custody. That was about her claim that she did not approve of this child that she did carry but had ZERO genetic connection to, being raised by a same sex married couple. As far as gay right's victories, I really don't know about that and perhaps you didn't notice that I posted about my doubt about that quite explicitly. I don't think it changes anything for the gay civil rights situation in Thailand either way, EXCEPT as positive P.R. as this same sex married couple really do come off smelling like roses, in their incredible persistence in fighting for their child which does exist.

This custody case was not about "third world" economic exploitation. Dude, that's your trip, it's a valid spin to talk about ALL such cases in a general way, when deciding on legislation for all, etc. But this was one case about a child that already existed created, yes, in a controversial way, whether the contracting people were single, married, gay, or straight.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Jingthing

[gandalf12]

How is the child going to handle it, never mind these guys? Goes to school and tells everyone at school this is my dad and this is my dad. How do they explain were the mother is? I would think it would potentially cause a lot of psychological issues for the child. What the adults go through I am not interested in but it is the child that will have the difficult time

...because of people like you, who minimize "family" to mom+dad+ child!

Society is not built on queers it is built on heterosexual relationships but maybe no one told you that