Israel PM Netanyahu rebukes deputy military chief over Holocaust speech

[Jingthing]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

The assertion that the speech was coordinated with his superior(s) ("it’s inconceivable that he’d give a major speech without running it past his boss.") is most probably off mark. Golan got quite a reputation for saying what's on his mind, and doing what he feels needed - not always with the approval or consent of those in command.

Rather than a coordinated effort, I think it reflects the gap between views aired by politicians and professionals. The latter tend to be somewhat more pragmatic or utilitarian in their approach. The views shared by some of Israel's top generals is not all that surprising as well. The leading pack is often shaped by appointments which rely, among other things, on past associations and rapport.

I did not read that item as indicating that the specific and now very controversial comment at the Holocaust Memorial Event was specifically coordinated. I read that more as a generality about a political conflict between some Israeli generals and the Netanyahu government.

[Jingthing]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

So an American, living in Thailand tries to interpret the meaning of a full career hardened member of the IDF that is second only in command of the Army. The only one being obsessive on here is you and your habit of calling anyone who dares to criticize the Israeli Government as being a Jew hater. You see the truth is for me (and I think many others) that I do not even think of Israeli's as Jews, it NEVER enters my head. I think of them as just other nationals from another country. i think Israel has a despicable Government, a despicable foreign policy, they lack any consideration of international Human rights issues and have for decades ignored all UN resolutions, particularly anything related to Nuclear weapons. I can't stand the North Korean Government - not the people, the Government, does that make me a hater of all the people in Korea (an atheist hater no less). You dislike Putin intensely does that make you a Russian hater (are you an orthodox Christian hater?)? As soon as someone dislikes the Israeli Government, the old twist is put on it immediately, they become jew haters. It is getting boring, predictable and is WRONG!

If General Golan's comments were meant to be 'internal' and not meant they way they have been interpreted then Netanyahu would not have reacted the way he did. He would have said to the worlds press 'Guys you have misinterpreted the Generals comments', but he didn't, he almost had a baby in his rage. Netanyahu has interpreted the meaning of the Generals comments exactly the same way as most TV members on here, so why not mail him and tell him he misunderstands the General and he has taken it out of context.

A few points.

First of all, your comment was offensively personalized toward me. Foul.

Secondly, you tell a BALD FACED lie that anyone reading my posts for awhile would know, and I assume you have based on your sickening familiarity.

I have NEVER, EVER, not even one time suggested that anyone who criticizes Israeli government policies, as I have as well, is a Jew hater.

I have repeated AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN that normal criticism of the Israeli government as towards any other government is perfectly fine, actually welcome.

It's the obsessive and toxic Israel demonization, seeing blame ONLY on the Israeli side, sometimes blaming the entire mess in the Middle East ONLY on Israel, sometimes blaming everything wrong in the entire world ONLY on Israel, often but not always explicitly mixed with Jew hating rhetoric that is not normal.

It's usually very, very easy to distinguish between normal criticism of Israel and sick minded Israel demonization. Not 100 percent of the time, but almost always.

I've had enough. I won't participate with the mind games of members that post such obvious personal attacks and lies ... so congratulations ...

welcome to my esteemed IGNORE LIST. (Enjoy.)

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jingthing

[JingerBen]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

So an American, living in Thailand tries to interpret the meaning of a full career hardened member of the IDF that is second only in command of the Army. The only one being obsessive on here is you and your habit of calling anyone who dares to criticize the Israeli Government as being a Jew hater. You see the truth is for me (and I think many others) that I do not even think of Israeli's as Jews, it NEVER enters my head. I think of them as just other nationals from another country. i think Israel has a despicable Government, a despicable foreign policy, they lack any consideration of international Human rights issues and have for decades ignored all UN resolutions, particularly anything related to Nuclear weapons. I can't stand the North Korean Government - not the people, the Government, does that make me a hater of all the people in Korea (an atheist hater no less). You dislike Putin intensely does that make you a Russian hater (are you an orthodox Christian hater?)? As soon as someone dislikes the Israeli Government, the old twist is put on it immediately, they become jew haters. It is getting boring, predictable and is WRONG!

If General Golan's comments were meant to be 'internal' and not meant they way they have been interpreted then Netanyahu would not have reacted the way he did. He would have said to the worlds press 'Guys you have misinterpreted the Generals comments', but he didn't, he almost had a baby in his rage. Netanyahu has interpreted the meaning of the Generals comments exactly the same way as most TV members on here, so why not mail him and tell him he misunderstands the General and he has taken it out of context.

That sums it up and demolishes the lame attempts at damage control and personal vilification.

[Andaman Al]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

So an American, living in Thailand tries to interpret the meaning of a full career hardened member of the IDF that is second only in command of the Army. The only one being obsessive on here is you and your habit of calling anyone who dares to criticize the Israeli Government as being a Jew hater. You see the truth is for me (and I think many others) that I do not even think of Israeli's as Jews, it NEVER enters my head. I think of them as just other nationals from another country. i think Israel has a despicable Government, a despicable foreign policy, they lack any consideration of international Human rights issues and have for decades ignored all UN resolutions, particularly anything related to Nuclear weapons. I can't stand the North Korean Government - not the people, the Government, does that make me a hater of all the people in Korea (an atheist hater no less). You dislike Putin intensely does that make you a Russian hater (are you an orthodox Christian hater?)? As soon as someone dislikes the Israeli Government, the old twist is put on it immediately, they become jew haters. It is getting boring, predictable and is WRONG!

If General Golan's comments were meant to be 'internal' and not meant they way they have been interpreted then Netanyahu would not have reacted the way he did. He would have said to the worlds press 'Guys you have misinterpreted the Generals comments', but he didn't, he almost had a baby in his rage. Netanyahu has interpreted the meaning of the Generals comments exactly the same way as most TV members on here, so why not mail him and tell him he misunderstands the General and he has taken it out of context.

A few points.

First of all, your comment was offensively personalized toward me. Foul.

Secondly, you tell a BALD FACED lie that anyone reading my posts for awhile would know, and I assume you have based on your sickening familiarity.

I have NEVER, EVER, not even one time suggested that anyone who criticizes Israeli government policies, as I have as well, is a Jew hater.

I have repeated AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN that normal criticism of the Israeli government as towards any other government is perfectly fine, actually welcome.

It's the obsessive and toxic Israel demonization, often but not always explicitly mixed with Jew hating rhetoric that is not normal.

It's usually very, very easy to distinguish between normal criticism of Israel and sick minded Israel demonization. Not 100 percent of the time, but almost always.

I've had enough. I won't participate with the mind games of members that post such obvious personal attacks and lies ... so congratulations ...

welcome to my esteemed IGNORE LIST. (Enjoy.)

We have to put up on here with you calling individuals 'jew haters' for absolutely no justifiable reason and you have the gaul to say my post is a personal attack. I made no personal attack. You make personal attacks on others labelling them jew haters and anti-semitic. I consider it a major achievement today to have been added to your ignore list. I see how it works now, call anyone anything you want using words of hate, but when people have the audacity to answer back you jump on the outrage bus, call it personal and run off in a huff. Says a lot really. Ciao!

[Morch]

Of course the courageous Maj General did not imply Israel was about to install gas chambers to murder millions as the Nazis did, but pointed out the nauseating processes and disturbing trends that the current right wing government is moving towards and is actively encouraging, similar to things that happened in Europe to Jews in the 1930s.

Such as

..the Zionist principle of racial purity of a Jewish State

..the threats to strip Israeli Arabs of their citizenship and deportation

..confiscation and destruction (kristallnacht) of Palestinian property without compensation to create Lebensraum for Jewish only colonies

..virtual apartheid in the West Bank and ghettoes in the West Bank and Gaza

..shoot to kill policy with thousands turning out in support of the IDF who cold bloodedly shot an injured Palestinian

..the daily terrorising of Palestinians

"There are thousands if not tens of thousands of Israelis who call for ejecting, raping and murdering Palestinians, leftists and even plain old critics of the government, on an almost daily basis. The cry “Death to the Arabs” which reverberates in radical right wing demonstrations as well as football fields has become so routine that no one seems to notice anymore. Just this past Sunday, a gang of 40-50 football thugs assaulted Nadwa Jabber, an Israeli-Arab teacher in a mixed school devoted to coexistence, when she was in her car with her two young daughters outside the Jerusalem shopping mall."

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.718231

...very good article in Haaretz on the the Major General's comments above.

Too funny.

So, Golan is now a "courageous Maj General", no less.

The only question here is if poster is aware of certain highlights in Golan's illustrious IDF career (pushing for IDF actions within Palestinian cities, authorizing use of Palestinians as human shields, and opting for negotiating with (rather than evicting) illegal settlers in the West Bank), or if these are currently shelved as to enable the faux embrace.

I'm pretty sure that without the quoted bit in the OP, Golan would be credited with quite different dexcriptions, ranging between the negative and the demonizing

Of course, as the OP does not include Golan's full reference to the IDF, a whole lotta fun can be had with his words.

Golan did not mention the items on your list, nor directly referred to them. To imply that he identifies with the usual talking points is laughable. To portray him as an anti-Zionist, is preposterous. Vilifying the IDF must be getting trickier with support and similar views aired by Golan's superiors (Minister of Defense and IDF Chief of Staff).

Those cheering Golan may want to take some of his other words to heart, specifically those touching on fear mongering, hatred of the other, and sanctimonious preaching. Should probably add being able to reflect honestly on unsavory aspects of one's side and tolerance for other opinions - but that's probably too much to hope for.

Here's another article from the same source, albeit with a somewhat different angle:

IDF Deputy Chief Yair Golan Has History of Outspokenness, Bold Action

http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.718193

[Morch]

good for the general. Perhaps Israel is long over due for some self examination regarding it's treatment of non Jews. So fun to see victim become persecutor.

This argument is dependent on perspective. Choosing whether to judge Israel by comparing it to Western democracies or in relation to other Middle East countries results in different answers. There's also a notable difference between specifying Israel's treatment of religious minorities, and Israel's treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories (the latter not being Israeli citizens, and the whole concept of military occupation negating the notion of fairness). Mixing both issues often serves to muddy the waters.

Not quite sure where you see a victim becoming a persecutor. Golan is not denouncing Israel, does not quit his position and as far as I'm aware not much into playing the victim.

[up-country_sinclair]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

So an American, living in Thailand tries to interpret the meaning of a full career hardened member of the IDF that is second only in command of the Army. The only one being obsessive on here is you and your habit of calling anyone who dares to criticize the Israeli Government as being a Jew hater. You see the truth is for me (and I think many others) that I do not even think of Israeli's as Jews, it NEVER enters my head. I think of them as just other nationals from another country. i think Israel has a despicable Government, a despicable foreign policy, they lack any consideration of international Human rights issues and have for decades ignored all UN resolutions, particularly anything related to Nuclear weapons. I can't stand the North Korean Government - not the people, the Government, does that make me a hater of all the people in Korea (an atheist hater no less). You dislike Putin intensely does that make you a Russian hater (are you an orthodox Christian hater?)? As soon as someone dislikes the Israeli Government, the old twist is put on it immediately, they become jew haters. It is getting boring, predictable and is WRONG!

Great post.

This really needed to be said/written. For far too long any criticism of Israeli policy is met with the default "anti-semite" retort. It's got nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the actions of the government.

[rgs2001uk]

Peter Gabriel summed it up years ago.

"The eyes of the world are watching you now"

[AYJAYDEE]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

So an American, living in Thailand tries to interpret the meaning of a full career hardened member of the IDF that is second only in command of the Army. The only one being obsessive on here is you and your habit of calling anyone who dares to criticize the Israeli Government as being a Jew hater. You see the truth is for me (and I think many others) that I do not even think of Israeli's as Jews, it NEVER enters my head. I think of them as just other nationals from another country. i think Israel has a despicable Government, a despicable foreign policy, they lack any consideration of international Human rights issues and have for decades ignored all UN resolutions, particularly anything related to Nuclear weapons. I can't stand the North Korean Government - not the people, the Government, does that make me a hater of all the people in Korea (an atheist hater no less). You dislike Putin intensely does that make you a Russian hater (are you an orthodox Christian hater?)? As soon as someone dislikes the Israeli Government, the old twist is put on it immediately, they become jew haters. It is getting boring, predictable and is WRONG!

If General Golan's comments were meant to be 'internal' and not meant they way they have been interpreted then Netanyahu would not have reacted the way he did. He would have said to the worlds press 'Guys you have misinterpreted the Generals comments', but he didn't, he almost had a baby in his rage. Netanyahu has interpreted the meaning of the Generals comments exactly the same way as most TV members on here, so why not mail him and tell him he misunderstands the General and he has taken it out of context.

A few points.

First of all, your comment was offensively personalized toward me. Foul.

Secondly, you tell a BALD FACED lie that anyone reading my posts for awhile would know, and I assume you have based on your sickening familiarity.

I have NEVER, EVER, not even one time suggested that anyone who criticizes Israeli government policies, as I have as well, is a Jew hater.

I have repeated AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN that normal criticism of the Israeli government as towards any other government is perfectly fine, actually welcome.

It's the obsessive and toxic Israel demonization, seeing blame ONLY on the Israeli side, sometimes blaming the entire mess in the Middle East ONLY on Israel, sometimes blaming everything wrong in the entire world ONLY on Israel, often but not always explicitly mixed with Jew hating rhetoric that is not normal.

It's usually very, very easy to distinguish between normal criticism of Israel and sick minded Israel demonization. Not 100 percent of the time, but almost always.

I've had enough. I won't participate with the mind games of members that post such obvious personal attacks and lies ... so congratulations ...

welcome to my esteemed IGNORE LIST. (Enjoy.)

Lol! in a while your gonna have everyone who dares disagree with you on ignore and you'll be sitting here jawing with a few zionists!!

[Morch]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

Well I read the article, and it is quite clear

Here is another quote :

They must stop thinking of themselves only as victims and begin to understand themselves also as actors. If they don’t, they’re in danger of sliding down that same slippery slope and becoming perpetrators.

So basically they say what most of the people you tax as "jew hater"... they see the victims puhing worldwide the victim card each time and never think the way they do the things to other.

Because you criticize the thai government can you be taxed as thai hater? Don t think so, think you even like this country and are sadden by the action taken, am I right?

Can't you simply imagine that most of the critics seen here, in Europe, in USA and even in Israel with Breaking The Silence, the same way you criticize the government.

Israel, proudly boasting its democratic country in middle east, has the power to change its leaders and the way the Cisjordania settlements and abuses are seen by Israeli. That' s also why the world (yeah a lot of people worldwide disapprove the politics of Israel) put pressure and call for boycott...certainly not for the "end of Israel" but to show that those illegal settlements are bad for the palestinians AND for the Israeli....

So maybe you will play the "jew Hater" card but from the other post you wrote not linked to Israel you seem a clever man and hope you can see the difference between this poor game of : you not agree so you hate the jew, and the reality which is : stealing lands of your neighbours and ressources is bad and leads to more confrontation...

Many posters on these topics, when supposedly commenting negatively on the Israeli government's policies, do so while employing generalizations - "Israel", "Israelis", "IDF", "Zionists", and yes "Jews". These are often conflated, with little effort made to direct criticism at specific elements. IMO, this contributes to the feelings of demonization expressed. Of course, the common hyperbole and inflammatory rhetoric employed do not help things.

And here's a mirror image - anyone not fully identifying with the full blown criticism of Israel is deemed unworthy by the above posters. It is not enough to be somewhat critical, either with us or against us. There's also not much extra points for expressing criticism on both sides.

Apart from all this, denying that there were and are posters expressing "Jew hater" views, in this context or others, is simply counterfactual. Not all criticism of Israel is to do with antisemitism, but some of it certainly does.

[AYJAYDEE]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

Well I read the article, and it is quite clear

Here is another quote :

They must stop thinking of themselves only as victims and begin to understand themselves also as actors. If they don’t, they’re in danger of sliding down that same slippery slope and becoming perpetrators.

So basically they say what most of the people you tax as "jew hater"... they see the victims puhing worldwide the victim card each time and never think the way they do the things to other.

Because you criticize the thai government can you be taxed as thai hater? Don t think so, think you even like this country and are sadden by the action taken, am I right?

Can't you simply imagine that most of the critics seen here, in Europe, in USA and even in Israel with Breaking The Silence, the same way you criticize the government.

Israel, proudly boasting its democratic country in middle east, has the power to change its leaders and the way the Cisjordania settlements and abuses are seen by Israeli. That' s also why the world (yeah a lot of people worldwide disapprove the politics of Israel) put pressure and call for boycott...certainly not for the "end of Israel" but to show that those illegal settlements are bad for the palestinians AND for the Israeli....

So maybe you will play the "jew Hater" card but from the other post you wrote not linked to Israel you seem a clever man and hope you can see the difference between this poor game of : you not agree so you hate the jew, and the reality which is : stealing lands of your neighbours and ressources is bad and leads to more confrontation...

Many posters on these topics, when supposedly commenting negatively on the Israeli government's policies, do so while employing generalizations - "Israel", "Israelis", "IDF", "Zionists", and yes "Jews". These are often conflated, with little effort made to direct criticism at specific elements. IMO, this contributes to the feelings of demonization expressed. Of course, the common hyperbole and inflammatory rhetoric employed do not help things.

And here's a mirror image - anyone not fully identifying with the full blown criticism of Israel is deemed unworthy by the above posters. It is not enough to be somewhat critical, either with us or against us. There's also not much extra points for expressing criticism on both sides.

Apart from all this, denying that there were and are posters expressing "Jew hater" views, in this context or others, is simply counterfactual. Not all criticism of Israel is to do with antisemitism, but some of it certainly does.

Israel= Israel government. period. and no one said some of it didn't.

[Jingthing]

Totally agree that not all criticism of Israel is tainted with Jew hatred.

However, in my view, suggesting Israel is equivalent to Nazi Germany, which relates to how the words of this general are being distorted by enemies of Israel, most certainly does have that taint.

Indeed that used to be in the E.U. definition of antisemitism before the E.U decided to stop having any written document defining what kind of speech should be seen that way.

As far as the question of conflating Israel, Israelis, Zionism, the Jewish people, etc. a lot of that is largely unavoidable. The majority of Jewish people in the world now live in Israel (that's historic in the modern era), tiny Israel is obviously the only nation with a majority Jewish demographic in the world, and in my view the majority of diaspora Jews feel connected (to various degrees) to the fate of the state of Israel. BDS activists have been known to attack Jewish products, businesses, people, etc. that have nothing to do with Israel ... sometimes from ignorance, sometimes intentionally. It's probably a separate issue, this conflation, that is not going to be resolved anytime soon from either the perspective of Jewish people or non-Jewish people.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jingthing

[rgs2001uk]

Best you take that to the bank, or take it up with the good general.

Thats a great job you are doing, do you have a firefighters license?

[Morch]

Well I read the article, and it is quite clear

Here is another quote :

They must stop thinking of themselves only as victims and begin to understand themselves also as actors. If they don’t, they’re in danger of sliding down that same slippery slope and becoming perpetrators.

So basically they say what most of the people you tax as "jew hater"... they see the victims puhing worldwide the victim card each time and never think the way they do the things to other.

Because you criticize the thai government can you be taxed as thai hater? Don t think so, think you even like this country and are sadden by the action taken, am I right?

Can't you simply imagine that most of the critics seen here, in Europe, in USA and even in Israel with Breaking The Silence, the same way you criticize the government.

Israel, proudly boasting its democratic country in middle east, has the power to change its leaders and the way the Cisjordania settlements and abuses are seen by Israeli. That' s also why the world (yeah a lot of people worldwide disapprove the politics of Israel) put pressure and call for boycott...certainly not for the "end of Israel" but to show that those illegal settlements are bad for the palestinians AND for the Israeli....

So maybe you will play the "jew Hater" card but from the other post you wrote not linked to Israel you seem a clever man and hope you can see the difference between this poor game of : you not agree so you hate the jew, and the reality which is : stealing lands of your neighbours and ressources is bad and leads to more confrontation...

Many posters on these topics, when supposedly commenting negatively on the Israeli government's policies, do so while employing generalizations - "Israel", "Israelis", "IDF", "Zionists", and yes "Jews". These are often conflated, with little effort made to direct criticism at specific elements. IMO, this contributes to the feelings of demonization expressed. Of course, the common hyperbole and inflammatory rhetoric employed do not help things.

And here's a mirror image - anyone not fully identifying with the full blown criticism of Israel is deemed unworthy by the above posters. It is not enough to be somewhat critical, either with us or against us. There's also not much extra points for expressing criticism on both sides.

Apart from all this, denying that there were and are posters expressing "Jew hater" views, in this context or others, is simply counterfactual. Not all criticism of Israel is to do with antisemitism, but some of it certainly does.

Israel= Israel government. period. and no one said some of it didn't.

Israel is the Israeli government? As in all Israelis are of a single mind? Would that include the opposition? The Arab minority? Breaking The Silence activists?

When discussing other countries posters are somewhat more likely to refer to leaders, parties, and specific groups. Doesn't apply all that much when it comes to these topics.

Interestingly enough, the same is selectively applied when referring to the Palestinians.

As for denial, we had a very prolific poster regularly pulling a Livingstone and claiming to have never seen such posts....

[Ulysses G.]

You make personal attacks on others labelling them jew haters and anti-semitic.

I don't know what you are. I have barely noticed your posts. I DO know that most of the obsessive anti-Israel posters on here ARE anti-Semites in a big way. They have proved it with numerous anti-Jewish posts - as well as the hateful ones about Israel - over a long period of time.

Maybe you are just naïve to the fact that you are enabling them with your bogus attack on jingthing. He is exactly right about these anti-Semitic types.

[AYJAYDEE]

You make personal attacks on others labelling them jew haters and anti-semitic.

I don't know what you are. I have barely noticed your posts. I DO know that most of the obsessive anti-Israel posters on here ARE anti-Semites in a big way. They have proved it with numerous anti-Jewish posts - as well as the hateful ones about Israel - over a long period of time.

Maybe you are just naïve to the fact that you are enabling them with your bogus attack on jingthing. He is exactly right about these anti-Semitic types.

nonsense. plenty of jews hate Israel's policies as well.

[Morch]

Excuse me but that's not equivalent to Nazi Germany. I see you fail to mention that leaders behind a Palestinian state intend to allow zero Jews. Also that may be an unfortunate and disturbing survey finding (reflective of decades of conflict) but the fact remains 20 percent of Israeli citizens are Arab and there is no serious political movement to actually kick them out. Really none at all. As usual the obsessed Israel demonization agenda only sees blame on one side.

That is the exact equivalent to Nazi Germany... as Major-General Yair Golan has just pointed out.

Nope, Golan was referring to trends reminiscent of these times, and which ought to be nipped at the bud.

His words are more a warning of what might be, rather than a description of what is.

[Morch]

You make personal attacks on others labelling them jew haters and anti-semitic.

I don't know what you are. I have barely noticed your posts. I DO know that most of the obsessive anti-Israel posters on here ARE anti-Semites in a big way. They have proved it with numerous anti-Jewish posts - as well as the hateful ones about Israel - over a long period of time.

Maybe you are just naïve to the fact that you are enabling them with your bogus attack on jingthing. He is exactly right about these anti-Semitic types.

nonsense. plenty of jews hate Israel's policies as well.

Yes there are. What's your point?

Nobody says all criticism of Israel is antisemitism. That's more of a straw-man argument.

[Jingthing]

The general's words were spoken during the somber annual Israeli remembrance of the Shoah.

A more cheerful holiday starts very soon.

Israel Independence Day!

http://www.touristisrael.com/yom-haatzmaut-israeli-independence-day/6022/

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jingthing

[Morch]

Good stuff as usual but it can't be denied that the Israel demonization agenda is twisting his words to suggest -- see even this general agrees Israel is like Nazi Germany. Now we have primo Jewish cover to keep spouting that inflammatory lie. I think he probably should have known that and perhaps found other words to express himself.

What other words could he have found to express an obvious truth?

Have you actually read the text of the full speech?

Would the "obvious truth" be extended to cover Golan's description of the IDF as a moral army or of asserting the right of Jewish people to hold on to Israel?

[Morch]

Yair Golan participated in military operations like

The 1982 Lebanon War

First Intifada

South Lebanon conflict (1985–2000)

Second Intifada

Operation Defensive Shield

2006 Lebanon War

Operation Cast Lead

All IDF military operations with always more civilian casualties than combatants.

I don't see why this soldier should earn any respect for his latest controversial quote. His war crimes started in 1982 and he should be treated accordingly.

Which did not stop you from clicking the "like" button on a post describing him as "courageous"....

[AYJAYDEE]

Good stuff as usual but it can't be denied that the Israel demonization agenda is twisting his words to suggest -- see even this general agrees Israel is like Nazi Germany. Now we have primo Jewish cover to keep spouting that inflammatory lie. I think he probably should have known that and perhaps found other words to express himself.

What other words could he have found to express an obvious truth?

Have you actually read the text of the full speech?

Would the "obvious truth" be extended to cover Golan's description of the IDF as a moral army or of asserting the right of Jewish people to hold on to Israel?

what part of AN obvious truth struck you as plural??

[Jingthing]

Online media is "weaponized" by both supporters and enemies of Israel. Should Israelis of influence self censor their speech in order to avoid them being twisted by Israel's enemies? I'm not entirely sure.

[Morch]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

So an American, living in Thailand tries to interpret the meaning of a full career hardened member of the IDF that is second only in command of the Army. The only one being obsessive on here is you and your habit of calling anyone who dares to criticize the Israeli Government as being a Jew hater. You see the truth is for me (and I think many others) that I do not even think of Israeli's as Jews, it NEVER enters my head. I think of them as just other nationals from another country. i think Israel has a despicable Government, a despicable foreign policy, they lack any consideration of international Human rights issues and have for decades ignored all UN resolutions, particularly anything related to Nuclear weapons. I can't stand the North Korean Government - not the people, the Government, does that make me a hater of all the people in Korea (an atheist hater no less). You dislike Putin intensely does that make you a Russian hater (are you an orthodox Christian hater?)? As soon as someone dislikes the Israeli Government, the old twist is put on it immediately, they become jew haters. It is getting boring, predictable and is WRONG!

Great post.

This really needed to be said/written. For far too long any criticism of Israeli policy is met with the default "anti-semite" retort. It's got nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the actions of the government.

Totally unlike other posters trying to interpret statements by foreign generals...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/914874-iranian-commander-threatens-to-close-strait-of-hormuz-to-us/?p=10711992

[Morch]

Good stuff as usual but it can't be denied that the Israel demonization agenda is twisting his words to suggest -- see even this general agrees Israel is like Nazi Germany. Now we have primo Jewish cover to keep spouting that inflammatory lie. I think he probably should have known that and perhaps found other words to express himself.

What other words could he have found to express an obvious truth?

Have you actually read the text of the full speech?

Would the "obvious truth" be extended to cover Golan's description of the IDF as a moral army or of asserting the right of Jewish people to hold on to Israel?

what part of AN obvious truth struck you as plural??

Would it be appropriate to bring grammar Nazis in the context of this topic?

[Cockwomble]

Prepare for the usual Israeli supporters accusing anynoe who questions the actions of the Israeli government as anti-semetic.

I for one am fed up of listening to the israeli propaganda to justify their hypocricy, note I did not use the word Jew.

[Jingthing]

Prepare for the usual Israeli supporters accusing anynoe who questions the actions of the Israeli government as anti-semetic.

I for one am fed up of listening to the israeli propaganda to justify their hypocricy, note I did not use the word Jew.

So hostile.

I don't recall even one member over many years saying everyone who criticizes Israeli government policies is a Jew hater.

Anyway, why waste time?

Ignore list time.

[Jingthing]

A response to General Golan from one holocaust survivor:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Holocaust-survivor-pens-letters-to-IDF-General-who-compared-Nazis-to-Israel-453522

Rachel Zaney, a 94-year-old survivor of Auschwitz, penned a powerful reply to Golan's assertion that "horrifying developments that took place in Europe are beginning to unfold" in Israel.

...

Among those in the political sector, Education Minister Naftali Bennett called on Golan to rectify his mistake: “A moment before the Holocaust deniers turn these mistaken words into their flag, a moment before our soldiers will be compared to Nazis, God forbid, with approval from above, the deputy chief of staff made a mistake, and he must fix it immediately.”

[dexterm]

While I realize the obsessive Israel demonization agenda will take his statement out of context and use it as "Jew washing" (it's a thing, look it up) to support continued demonization of Israel. So in that sense, perhaps he shouldn't have given such ammunition to people who obviously hate Israel ... but the context really was INTERNAL.

I think this article explains that very well but you really need to read the entire article to get the context, which also explains the INTERNAL context of the general's statement:

Why are Israel’s generals being so noisy? Quite simple. In their near-unanimous professional estimation, stretching from a proven hawk like Yair Golan across the spectrum to the 200 ex-generals of Commanders for Israel’s Security, they see Israel facing an opportunity now, given the current Palestinian leadership, the weakness of the neighboring Arab states and the openness of the Saudi-led Arab League, to make deals that can secure Israel’s future. Instead they see a political leadership that’s letting the opportunities slip by for ideological reasons.

http://forward.com/opinion/340173/was-this-top-israeli-general-right-to-denounce-jewish-extremism-on-holocaus/?attribution=home-hero-item-text-1

Well I read the article, and it is quite clear

Here is another quote :

They must stop thinking of themselves only as victims and begin to understand themselves also as actors. If they don’t, they’re in danger of sliding down that same slippery slope and becoming perpetrators.

So basically they say what most of the people you tax as "jew hater"... they see the victims puhing worldwide the victim card each time and never think the way they do the things to other.

Because you criticize the thai government can you be taxed as thai hater? Don t think so, think you even like this country and are sadden by the action taken, am I right?

Can't you simply imagine that most of the critics seen here, in Europe, in USA and even in Israel with Breaking The Silence, the same way you criticize the government.

Israel, proudly boasting its democratic country in middle east, has the power to change its leaders and the way the Cisjordania settlements and abuses are seen by Israeli. That' s also why the world (yeah a lot of people worldwide disapprove the politics of Israel) put pressure and call for boycott...certainly not for the "end of Israel" but to show that those illegal settlements are bad for the palestinians AND for the Israeli....

So maybe you will play the "jew Hater" card but from the other post you wrote not linked to Israel you seem a clever man and hope you can see the difference between this poor game of : you not agree so you hate the jew, and the reality which is : stealing lands of your neighbours and ressources is bad and leads to more confrontation...

Many posters on these topics, when supposedly commenting negatively on the Israeli government's policies, do so while employing generalizations - "Israel", "Israelis", "IDF", "Zionists", and yes "Jews". These are often conflated, with little effort made to direct criticism at specific elements. IMO, this contributes to the feelings of demonization expressed. Of course, the common hyperbole and inflammatory rhetoric employed do not help things.

And here's a mirror image - anyone not fully identifying with the full blown criticism of Israel is deemed unworthy by the above posters. It is not enough to be somewhat critical, either with us or against us. There's also not much extra points for expressing criticism on both sides.

Apart from all this, denying that there were and are posters expressing "Jew hater" views, in this context or others, is simply counterfactual. Not all criticism of Israel is to do with antisemitism, but some of it certainly does.

You do the conflating. When I and others define exactly what we mean in our terminology you nitpick and attempt to muddy the waters. You have just done it again with a poster above.

Edited May 10, 2016 by dexterm

[dexterm]

Excuse me but that's not equivalent to Nazi Germany. I see you fail to mention that leaders behind a Palestinian state intend to allow zero Jews. Also that may be an unfortunate and disturbing survey finding (reflective of decades of conflict) but the fact remains 20 percent of Israeli citizens are Arab and there is no serious political movement to actually kick them out. Really none at all. As usual the obsessed Israel demonization agenda only sees blame on one side.

That is the exact equivalent to Nazi Germany... as Major-General Yair Golan has just pointed out.

Nope, Golan was referring to trends reminiscent of these times, and which ought to be nipped at the bud.

His words are more a warning of what might be, rather than a description of what is.

Zionists have been ethnically cleansing, repressing, humiliating and murdering Palestinians for 70 years now...not much nipping in the bud there.

Perhaps it takes soldiers on the front line to speak out either because of guilty consciences or foresight into where Israel is heading.

"One of the most important lessons of the Holocaust was ignoring the early signs that brought the Nazi regime to where it ended up. Maj. Gen. Golan wanted to warn against this. We shouldn’t criticize or attack him. Rather, we should listen to him and examine Israel under this light."

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.718239