Westerners waiing to Thais.Why would you?

[NancyL]

Agreed that if someone is wai-ing because they've been trained to do so as part of their job (cashier returning change, server in a restaurant, etc) then a simple smile and nod is sufficient.

But if it's someone greeting you in a social or professional situation, then definitely a wai should be returned and even offered first if the person is of higher status.

It's interesting to observe a work situation, like say a busy hospital ward at shift-change time, or a social situation like a meeting of a Thai social group where everyone is arriving and setting up the room for the meeting. Any situation where Thai people who haven't seen each other for 24 hours are convening but they have work to do and their hands full.

They will wai each other the first time they see someone, much like we'd say "good morning" the first time we see someone for the day and if the person they wai has his hands full they might respond with an "attempted wai" as in lifting their hands toward their head even though they're carrying something or doing a "half wai" and head nod with their one free hand. They make a gesture to show that they're attempting to make a wai and everyone understands that form doesn't count at a busy time.

[1FinickyOne]

I prefer a wai to a handshake... it is nice to give a proper wai but not always possible as so many are given in passing and your hands might be full etc etc... but along with a smile it is a pleasant custom...

[cms22]

I just love the farangs wai-ing the girls in the bars. Brilliant.

[overherebc]

MIL only because she's loaded so like to keep on the good side !!

[Srikcir]

I do cringe if I see it done wrong but it becomes natural with time and understanding. just as you may learn the languge with time, hopefully you learn the customs.

I admit I do not Wai but I do nod my head and say thank you in Thai.

It is my understanding that there is three different positions for the hands when Waiing. with all the waiing that is going on here could some one give the reason for each one.

Like do you wai first or do they wai first.

Actually it would be nice to have an article about it. I think I will check my arch enemy Google. I say arch enemy because I can generally find articles that refute the other one on the same subject.

I offer the following from http://www.kochangvr.com/thailandssociety/familystructures.htm

Although in Thai business- and government circles meanwhile shacking hands has become accepted the traditional reception in Thailand still is the Wai. The execution of the "right” Wai is for us Farangs not easy to understand as it depends on the relation of the people to each other. The Wai must be understood as a highly important sign of reciprocal demonstration of respect. In normal cases the palms with outstretched fingers in breast height are held against each other the thumbs pointing to the body. Furthermore you slightly bow. The younger one respectively the one who has the lower social status always greats first, the senior or more important one answers with a lower Wai: by this the palms are held little lower in front of the breast as the younger or less important one does. The heights of the palms is the most crucial criteria of respect to be demonstrated to the opponent. The higher the more respect is paid. Thus no Thai will use a Wai for reception or leave-taking with children, servants or beggars. Only for members of the royal family, monks or as an obeisance to Buddha the finger tips are held over the eyebrows. Are important people welcomed the finger tips can be held in between the eyebrows, the thumbs at this can touch the tip of the nose.

As a role the following can be said:

With less important: Thumbs about on breast height.

With ones of equal rank: Thumbs about on chin level.

With important and older people: Thumbs on level of the upper lip.

With very important people: Thumbs on level of the nose tip.

With monks (and members of the royal family which you will even throughout a longer stay in Thailand only meet very rarely…): Thumbs on level of the eyebrows.

For the bows as a consequence thereof the same applies: the deeper the higher is the respect of the opponent.

[Aussie69]

In Japan, bowing is the symbol of respect, with the degree of depth of the bow significant and based on the level of respect shown.

I believe Japanese bowing has its origins with the defeated bowing down to expose his neck to the victor, a form of surrender or submission ... i.e. you can chop my head off

Then again, this is also the nation that hosts game shows where contestants get their nipples burnt under magnifying glasses.

[maoro2013]

It is local custom and considered polite

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I just love the farangs wai-ing the girls in the bars. Brilliant.

I do that. If a bargirl wais it tends to be because they know you and are saying hi;

I don't think it's bad form to return that, especially because I believe that having a friendly relation takes precedence over some social status.

So I return the wai and say Sweaty Crap; being polite is never wrong.

Also waitresses, air-hosties and anyone else wai-ing as part of their job description doesn't require more than a nod.

Interesting point that again shows nuances is that business or first class pax will more often return an air-hosties wai.

As they fly a lot, they might actually know them. Or will get to know them with more personal attention in Biz/First. After you've been chatting with someone and then at the end of the flight they say goodbye and wai then it may be genuine and not just stand there by the door in a perpetual wai because they've been trained to do that. So yeah, I can see that.

[Konini]

I do wai too and I make some efforts to do it properly (gesture, height) when facing an old person or some local VIP. Of course I'm sure that I'm not doing it 100% properly (the exact rules seemingly beyond the reach of any non-Thai ... and quite some Thais too) but I try to make it look like I'm doing my best.

When in Rome...

On the other hand I feel a bit uncomfortable when I see foreigners wai-ing children. I've been told many times that this is not appropriate. Actually this does seem to bother the Thai people I know, unlike the gentle pat on the head that so many travel guides insist as being a no-no.

I've always had a funny relationship with the wai. Not wai-ing people of lower status brings out the socialist in me, although I know that this is not Europe and I have to go along with conventions here so that I'm not seen as rude or embarrassing people. I will always return the wai of someone I know, but very rarely initiate it. I'm always confused with doctors; if they wai me (most who are used to dealing with farangs don't) should I then return it? Serious question, I really would like to know. I'm trying to think if a nurse has ever wai-ed me, I can't think, but surely a nurse isn't counted as being too low to wai - or are they?

I admit I have trouble with the very small children, the ones still being held in the mother or father's arms and are being taught to wai people. I know I shouldn't wai children, but these are no more than babies and I feel that by making a bit of a fuss, telling them how clever they are and doing a tiny wai back to them will encourage them, I've always found that praise is the best way to reinforce positive behaviours. I'm talking about the ones who are barely able to co-ordinate the two hands coming together, no older than that. Is it wrong of me to do that? Again, serious question.

A very interesting comment was made about first and business class passengers being more likely to wai. My logic is telling me that the hosties, who have to wai as part of their job, would likely wai the people who are high enough in society to be able to afford to pay for premium seats outside of their workplace, so the passenger wai-ing back to them would make sense to me. Could be wrong of course, as also noted, anyone not brought up with the complicated nuances of who and how high really doesn't have much of a clue.

One last serious question - I almost always have something in at least one hand, is it rude to wai when carrying something?

[teacherpaul]

One of my bosses is an Englishman in his 70s and makes the cultural faux pas of waiing his staff whenever he visits.

Not sure if anyone has told him that you don't wai people younger than you, especially your subordinates.

[ggt]

In an environment with Thai professionals...if they Wai...so do I...if they stick out their hand to shake...I smile and shake their hand...

For the insolent corrupt Thais...who try to rip farangs off at every opportunity...I try to resist putting my foot in their face...

What does give me pause is seeing western (always women) who will kneel at the feet of a monk, bowing and waiing...<deleted>...(no these women are not Buddhist...just stupid acting)

[akentryan]

I return wais but only initiate them when the young lady puts the beer ticket in my cup. Gets a laugh every time. Seriously, most Thais I know seem to appreciate the return of the wai and smile if it is a little bit off.

[teacherpaul]

I wai water in a pool or the ocean. If you don't wai nam, you should not go .

Edited May 26, 2016 by teacherpaul

[gandalf12]

Generally you dont wai if the person is younger or of less social standing. You do wai if the person is of the same age bracket or older or of higher standing in society

[likeke]

Typically I do not. I have waiied to Thais who are older than I, but are very few. I show respect to others by nodding, smiling, and saying sawadee Khrap. I cringe when I see a tourist doing it to vendors and everyone else. A dead give away that they don't live here and not accustomed to the culture. I once asked a thai about this and she said it is ok not to waii but only to thais that you perceive to be older than yourself, monks, and people of high stature perhaps. An absolute no-no to thais younger than yourself. However, some savvy thais who are more attuned to western culture show a handshake that I off course reciprocate. If I returned a waii to someone much younger, I would feel foolish.

[garryjohns]

this was to be my input in reply to a poster who suggested waiing to make ammends to a disgruntled Thai , so thought i would open a new thread.

Making amends to a disgruntled person is never a good reason to wai. Also waitresses, air-hosties and anyone else wai-ing as part of their job description doesn't require more than a nod.

But for anyone else and especially family and friend's family: by all means return the wai.

Making amends to a disgruntled person is never a good reason to wai.

So true,and was basically what started me on this thread.

A poster gave advice to a guy who thought he had an issue with a songthaew driver over being cheated /not cheated,depending on how you took the story.

He suggested , that next time he saw this driver to pay him the small sum in dispute but also to give long respectful (chest high) wai to the guy ???

It is a Thai thing and i'll bet all the baht in Thailand that you would never see a Thai "victim" [unless ,possibly, if he is at very bottom of the ladder socioeconomically] do such a thing , so why in hell would a non Thai do so?

Edited May 26, 2016 by garryjohns

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I've always had a funny relationship with the wai. Not wai-ing people of lower status brings out the socialist in me, although I know that this is not Europe and I have to go along with conventions here so that I'm not seen as rude or embarrassing people. I will always return the wai of someone I know, but very rarely initiate it. I'm always confused with doctors; if they wai me (most who are used to dealing with farangs don't) should I then return it? Serious question, I really would like to know.

Oh definitely, that's a no brainer.

I admit I have trouble with the very small children, the ones still being held in the mother or father's arms and are being taught to wai people. I know I shouldn't wai children, but these are no more than babies and I feel that by making a bit of a fuss, telling them how clever they are and doing a tiny wai back to them will encourage them, I've always found that praise is the best way to reinforce positive behaviours. I'm talking about the ones who are barely able to co-ordinate the two hands coming together, no older than that. Is it wrong of me to do that? Again, serious question.

Reinforcing polite behavior in kids does happen by saying 'Sawatdee Khrap' a bit louder/clearer and then using the gender of the kid, so also as a woman you'd say 'Khrap' in that case, to teach the child if he's a boy. Waiing though people don't do. (Although it's not like you'll be taken out back and shot if you do. )

One last serious question - I almost always have something in at least one hand, is it rude to wai when carrying something?

A lot of serious questions today..! Is everything else you post in jest?

Anyway when you carry something you just 'attempt' to wai back. One handed, or if you carry something in both hands a slight bow and nod.

Edited May 26, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[bprinceuk]

I return wais because my parents taught me to be polite

[leverito]

Wai in Thailand is not same as outstretched hand of a westerner...

To ignore outstretched hand means you insult somebody.

To ignore wai or make a 1/4 or 1/8 wai don't means dishonor.

it means you are a "big" person and 1/4 or 1/8 wai is enough for you.

Or you can ignore,but instead reward him a 1/8 or 1/16 smile...

There are so many steps of smile here...

[wabothai]

Generally you dont wai if the person is younger or of less social standing. You do wai if the person is of the same age bracket or older or of higher standing in society

Would you wai prajuth?

[garryjohns]

OP, are you then saying Thai folk should not shake hands with farangs....?

No.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Generally you dont wai if the person is younger or of less social standing. You do wai if the person is of the same age bracket or older or of higher standing in society

Would you wai prajuth?

Politics aside and going with the context of age and social standing: yes.

OP, are you then saying Thai folk should not shake hands with farangs....?

I don't think he said anything of the sort, but on this topic I think many Thais would benefit from a discussion on hand shaking, similar to the one we have here.

Because most Thai handshakes are like shaking a dead fish, sideways.

And after that they can come back in for another lesson on a hug or two kisses for a greeting.

Edited May 26, 2016 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Altalake]

Pgharmm has it spot on.

[vivasamui]

I'm against feudal class systems (Brit or Thai), so I just wave & smile to Thais before or after they wai me. That way I don't have to worry if some "pu yai" is going to be insulted by where my palms are positioned. I'm also older than most of the Thais I meet, so in most cases I'm the respected one (who pays the bills, too)

A former girlfriend told me just to wai her mom, but shake hands with her uncles because I'm a farang and they don't expect me to know how to wai. Sounded like good advice. I agree with all the comments about cringing when I see foreigners happily wai-ing children, servants, waiters, bar girls etc...

[mike324]

Wai is just a form of respect and greeting. You are overthinking it, nobody will take it the wrong way.

You may not have to Wai waiters/ guards/ cashiers, etc a nod on the head will do...but I've seen hiso Thais wai back often as well, so its up to you. When it comes to friends or businesses, its a must and just a form of respect.

If you are a foreigner, it doesn't matter if its the wrong way, Thais will take any type of wai openly and will be happy that you know how to wai back as a form of respect.

[Guest]

I return wais. Why? Because I don't like to be rude. Ignoring a wai, in my opinion at least, would be akin to ignoring the outstretched hand of a Westerner who I had just met.

I can think of dozens of things that foreigners do in Thailand that make me cringe but waiing is not one of them.

Exactly my sentiments

[MaeJoMTB]

I return wais. Why? Because I don't like to be rude. Ignoring a wai, in my opinion at least, would be akin to ignoring the outstretched hand of a Westerner who I had just met.

I can think of dozens of things that foreigners do in Thailand that make me cringe but waiing is not one of them.

Returning and initiating, two totally different subjects.

I never initiate (they are not my lord), I rarely return (I am not their serf).

Happy to wave my hand at them. Good enough for a foreigner, I think.

Edited May 26, 2016 by MaeJoMTB

[MaeJoMTB]

Wai is just a form of respect and greeting.

No it isn't.

The wai is a display of master/servant or lord/serf status in a feudal society.

[FolkGuitar]

Wai is just a form of respect and greeting.

No it isn't.

The wai is a display of master/servant or lord/serf status in a feudal society.

I think you are correct, in all but your grammar. The wai WAS a display of master/servant or lord/serf status in a feudal society.

200 years ago, this display did connote that sort of class structure.

But that was then. This is now. The culture has evolved considerably in 200 years, and now the wai has nothing what so ever to do with master or servant, but rather respect for individuals. I doubt the Vice-president of the bank believes me to be his master when he greets me with a wai. I know I certainly don't think of him as my servant.

Certainly there are all levels of respect due to various individuals, be they street sweepers or Conglomerate CEOs.

If a person is lacking in self-respect, they will find it hard to respect others, no matter who they are.

[SoiBiker]

Wai is just a form of respect and greeting.

No it isn't.

The wai is a display of master/servant or lord/serf status in a feudal society.

Just as a handshake is a way of demonstrating you are unarmed.

In both cases, though, I think things have moved on a little.