Police and electrical engineers dead in Kabinburi U-Turn pile up

[Lokie]

Ahh the forced Kamikaze U-Turn on Thai roads, has always amazed me, why? or <deleted>?? So dangerous and if the junctions/roundabouts were used correctly as designed then would be no problems but no, block access and force vehicles to drive on and complete a dangerous manoeuvre in face of oncoming traffic (at usual Warp speed) absolutely stupid. As an american officer nicely put it in one word - NUTZ!

[lvr181]

Old saying SPEED KILLS, with extra help of cell phones now and loud conversation and eyes elsewhere, sad.

That "old saying" is not really correct - driving too fast for the conditions is what can kill.

Speeding merely contributes to the severity of the incident.

Believe me I have been "speeding" (breaking the road rules) for years.

After many years of racing motorbikes and cars it is hard to get that thrill out of your system.

[cumgranosalum]

Ahh the forced Kamikaze U-Turn on Thai roads, has always amazed me, why? or <deleted>?? So dangerous and if the junctions/roundabouts were used correctly as designed then would be no problems but no, block access and force vehicles to drive on and complete a dangerous manoeuvre in face of oncoming traffic (at usual Warp speed) absolutely stupid. As an american officer nicely put it in one word - NUTZ!

They're there because they are cheaper than designing a proper junction such as slip roads and bridges, roundabouts etc and take up less space - not that that is actually a critical problem in Thailand.

Thailands's new roads are pretty badly designed - I see little evidence anywhere in the country of competent traffic engineers or road designers.

the overall assumption seems to be that the wider, longer and straighter a road is the "better" it is....the reality is almost the opposite.

[ThaiKneeTim]

Just another day in THE most dangerous country to drive in in the WORLD,forget the bogus statistics that it is second or third,it is FIRST.

There are more dangerous places to drive than Thailand despite what statistics say

Yes there is Saudi Arabia but not many more and I have driven in many. This forum is about Thailand. I always wondered who designed the roads here and why? I have been given many answers and none of them are flattering.

Design!!!

As far as I can tell there has been no "design" involved in the roads around our village and nearest town. Just at the end of our road is a Y-junction that scares the shit out of me every time I have to pass through it, and the sign that reads "Accident ahead" doesn't inspire confidence to be honest!

As there appears to be no convention on who passes which side it's a guessing game as who is going which way and when every time.

[cumgranosalum]

Just another day in THE most dangerous country to drive in in the WORLD,forget the bogus statistics that it is second or third,it is FIRST.

There are more dangerous places to drive than Thailand despite what statistics say

Yes there is Saudi Arabia but not many more and I have driven in many. This forum is about Thailand. I always wondered who designed the roads here and why? I have been given many answers and none of them are flattering.

Design!!!

As far as I can tell there has been no "design" involved in the roads around our village and nearest town. Just at the end of our road is a Y-junction that scares the shit out of me every time I have to pass through it, and the sign that reads "Accident ahead" doesn't inspire confidence to be honest!

As there appears to be no convention on who passes which side it's a guessing game as who is going which way and when every time.

UK - has just under 200,000 reported injuries par year - Thailand claimed 64,000 in 2012...(OK so that figure is not very credible - if you triple it, it comes to the same as UK.)

So why is Thailand's death rate between 10 and 16 times higher than the UK..

Look at these photos......when do you ever see a collection of vehicles like this atan accident in Thailand - then look at how the traffic is handled and how the bus hasn't rolled over........

or Thailand?

[cumgranosalum]

As for U-turns - this should solve the problem.......

[selftaopath]

Ahh the forced Kamikaze U-Turn on Thai roads, has always amazed me, why? or <deleted>?? So dangerous and if the junctions/roundabouts were used correctly as designed then would be no problems but no, block access and force vehicles to drive on and complete a dangerous manoeuvre in face of oncoming traffic (at usual Warp speed) absolutely stupid. As an american officer nicely put it in one word - NUTZ!

They're there because they are cheaper than designing a proper junction such as slip roads and bridges, roundabouts etc and take up less space - not that that is actually a critical problem in Thailand.

Thailands's new roads are pretty badly designed - I see little evidence anywhere in the country of competent traffic engineers or road designers.

the overall assumption seems to be that the wider, longer and straighter a road is the "better" it is....the reality is almost the opposite.

Which begs the question: How many jobs/positions have been gotten through know how/education background/experience/ ability. lol My guess is NOT MANY. So Thailand will continue being Thailand while parts of the world outside Thailand wonders why?

[gk10002000]

There are much safer options for u-turns.

In the diagram below (for USA where they drive on the right) the type B jug-handle adds minimal cost to road construction, filters traffic off from the slow lane instead of the fast lane (so any tailback in excess of the waiting lane capacity is also in the slow lane or in a filter lane or the hard shoulder) allows vehicles waiting to cross to wait in safety off the road, gives good visibility in both directions, and can be coupled with traffic lights with a heavy bias to the main highway to permit safe crossing on very busy roads.

The central crossing would need to be configured as shown (to make a direct turn from the fast lane impossible to prevent impatient drivers from trying to jump the queue) and could have waiting space for 1 or 2 cars and a filter lane to make joining the fast lane on the far side safer.

A huge number of road accidents on highways are connected with u-turns as the paint on the road around them indicates.

Another alternative is to start using what we call in the UK roundabouts. (wong kom in Thai I think) However this would necessitate a huge amount of training as the system is dependent on driver discipline so is bound to fail initially.

Having spent a lot of time in New Jersey, I am very familiar with the Jug handle or tea cup type of u turns. However, I guarantee that in Thailand if they tried that, so many drivers would NOT follow the handle and instead would make the turn like they do now.

[cumgranosalum]

Ahh the forced Kamikaze U-Turn on Thai roads, has always amazed me, why? or <deleted>?? So dangerous and if the junctions/roundabouts were used correctly as designed then would be no problems but no, block access and force vehicles to drive on and complete a dangerous manoeuvre in face of oncoming traffic (at usual Warp speed) absolutely stupid. As an american officer nicely put it in one word - NUTZ!

They're there because they are cheaper than designing a proper junction such as slip roads and bridges, roundabouts etc and take up less space - not that that is actually a critical problem in Thailand.

Thailands's new roads are pretty badly designed - I see little evidence anywhere in the country of competent traffic engineers or road designers.

the overall assumption seems to be that the wider, longer and straighter a road is the "better" it is....the reality is almost the opposite.

Which begs the question: How many jobs/positions have been gotten through know how/education background/experience/ ability. lol My guess is NOT MANY. So Thailand will continue being Thailand while parts of the world outside Thailand wonders why?

There are road safety organisations in both Thailand and ASEAN that know what they are talking about - a quick Google will come up with them and some of their papers - but they are not heard; the problem is that successive governments are about as enlightened and obstinate as a ThaiVisa member - it's the Dunning Kruger effect - they simply have no idea about road safety but think they are experts....

Edited May 29, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

There are much safer options for u-turns.

In the diagram below (for USA where they drive on the right) the type B jug-handle adds minimal cost to road construction, filters traffic off from the slow lane instead of the fast lane (so any tailback in excess of the waiting lane capacity is also in the slow lane or in a filter lane or the hard shoulder) allows vehicles waiting to cross to wait in safety off the road, gives good visibility in both directions, and can be coupled with traffic lights with a heavy bias to the main highway to permit safe crossing on very busy roads.

The central crossing would need to be configured as shown (to make a direct turn from the fast lane impossible to prevent impatient drivers from trying to jump the queue) and could have waiting space for 1 or 2 cars and a filter lane to make joining the fast lane on the far side safer.

A huge number of road accidents on highways are connected with u-turns as the paint on the road around them indicates.

Another alternative is to start using what we call in the UK roundabouts. (wong kom in Thai I think) However this would necessitate a huge amount of training as the system is dependent on driver discipline so is bound to fail initially.

Having spent a lot of time in New Jersey, I am very familiar with the Jug handle or tea cup type of u turns. However, I guarantee that in Thailand if they tried that, so many drivers would NOT follow the handle and instead would make the turn like they do now.

You actually make a good point about road design. I Europe those junctions would (if used at all) be designed so that it would be just about impossible to cut through or take a route the designer hadn't intended. In Thailand the edges of roads are seldom defined - in Europe at junctions they are "channelled" by high curbs and bollards, at night reflective surfaces on both roads and signs are clearly visible - no vegetation of Billboards to obscure them and they are also designed (angles etc) to give good visibility.

There are idiots in ALL countries - it is not a Thai thing - and it is part of the task of road engineers to stop these idiots from doing what you describe.

(I"m still waiting for the railway to be prosecuted for that bus accident on video)

[tuanku]

There are much safer options for u-turns.

In the diagram below (for USA where they drive on the right) the type B jug-handle adds minimal cost to road construction, filters traffic off from the slow lane instead of the fast lane (so any tailback in excess of the waiting lane capacity is also in the slow lane or in a filter lane or the hard shoulder) allows vehicles waiting to cross to wait in safety off the road, gives good visibility in both directions, and can be coupled with traffic lights with a heavy bias to the main highway to permit safe crossing on very busy roads.

The central crossing would need to be configured as shown (to make a direct turn from the fast lane impossible to prevent impatient drivers from trying to jump the queue) and could have waiting space for 1 or 2 cars and a filter lane to make joining the fast lane on the far side safer.

A huge number of road accidents on highways are connected with u-turns as the paint on the road around them indicates.

Another alternative is to start using what we call in the UK roundabouts. (wong kom in Thai I think) However this would necessitate a huge amount of training as the system is dependent on driver discipline so is bound to fail initially.

Having spent a lot of time in New Jersey, I am very familiar with the Jug handle or tea cup type of u turns. However, I guarantee that in Thailand if they tried that, so many drivers would NOT follow the handle and instead would make the turn like they do now.

Yep if it is possible they will do it, but a very acute angle and a narrow entry should make it practically impossible without swinging out so wide it would be clearly suicidal

[tomwct]

That's good info, but you have to hire highway engineers to design and build. In Thailand it's Nepotism hiring. Your Daddy ia

Director and his son dropped out of high school. So he's now self-educated as an Engineer!

[cumgranosalum]

That's good info, but you have to hire highway engineers to design and build. In Thailand it's Nepotism hiring. Your Daddy ia

Director and his son dropped out of high school. So he's now self-educated as an Engineer!

Yes- corruption plays a part......but as I said the people are there - maybe if police get killed they might sit up and take notice.

BTW - always remember that the US does not have a particularly good road safety record - coming 3 to 4 times the death rates of Northern European countries - and this from a country where the car is God!

[Winniedapu]

Ahh the forced Kamikaze U-Turn on Thai roads, has always amazed me, why? or <deleted>?? So dangerous and if the junctions/roundabouts were used correctly as designed then would be no problems but no, block access and force vehicles to drive on and complete a dangerous manoeuvre in face of oncoming traffic (at usual Warp speed) absolutely stupid. As an american officer nicely put it in one word - NUTZ!

They're there because they are cheaper than designing a proper junction such as slip roads and bridges, roundabouts etc and take up less space - not that that is actually a critical problem in Thailand.

Thailands's new roads are pretty badly designed - I see little evidence anywhere in the country of competent traffic engineers or road designers.

the overall assumption seems to be that the wider, longer and straighter a road is the "better" it is....the reality is almost the opposite.

Which begs the question: How many jobs/positions have been gotten through know how/education background/experience/ ability. lol My guess is NOT MANY. So Thailand will continue being Thailand while parts of the world outside Thailand wonders why?

There are road safety organisations in both Thailand and ASEAN that know what they are talking about - a quick Google will come up with them and some of their papers - but they are not heard; the problem is that successive governments are about as enlightened and obstinate as a ThaiVisa member - it's the Dunning Kruger effect - they simply have no idea about road safety but think they are experts....

"it's the Dunning Kruger effect"

I think you're right. It comes from immersion in a culture where most people really aren't very bright, combined with constantly being told you're a 'hansum man' and winning your first bar quiz.

Like the guy who said that TL is a very safe place to drive, no matter what the statistics say.

Long time since I saw the Dunning Kruger effect being referred to. Ah, memories... Thank you for the reminiscence.

W

[cardinalblue]

What I have found in Thailand is with caravans there is a tendency to follow the car ahead of you when turning w/o paying attention to on coming cars....they think the cars coming the opposite direction will stop...

Could the cars u-turning caused this accident? Was the truck braking and then lost control of his vehicle?

[dieseldave1951]

they where DESINED ummm

Just another day in THE most dangerous country to drive in in the WORLD,forget the bogus statistics that it is second or third,it is FIRST.

There are more dangerous places to drive than Thailand despite what statistics say

Yes there is Saudi Arabia but not many more and I have driven in many. This forum is about Thailand. I always wondered who designed the roads here and why? I have been given many answers and none of them are flattering.

[cumgranosalum]

What I have found in Thailand is with caravans there is a tendency to follow the car ahead of you when turning w/o paying attention to on coming cars....they think the cars coming the opposite direction will stop...

Could the cars u-turning caused this accident? Was the truck braking and then lost control of his vehicle?

Ok - a single issue and an obscure one at that - tailgating is a worldwide problem....if you checked stopping distances in an emergency situation you'd see that ALL traffic in ALL countries drives far too close for that.

just trying to pin accidents on "driver stupidity" is utterly unproductive - there are much more pertinent factors involved and the one here is U-turns - it doesn't matter how "superb" drivers think they are, U-turns will always present an accident blackspot.

[lvr181]

What I have found in Thailand is with caravans there is a tendency to follow the car ahead of you when turning w/o paying attention to on coming cars....they think the cars coming the opposite direction will stop...

Could the cars u-turning caused this accident? Was the truck braking and then lost control of his vehicle?

"Could the cars u-turning caused this accident? Was the truck braking and then lost control of his vehicle?"

No, the cause was bad (or no safe design) for U turns and lack of proper driver training (hence lack of driver awareness) and enforcement of road rules.

As for the truck, simply lack of driver attention, plus/or speeding! And if he was not doing anything wrong why would he run away?

I always remember being taught that you should be able to stop in half the clear road ahead of you.

A few days ago my partner and I were being driven from Phuket airport to Patong by private "taxi" when the driver attempted to pass a motorcyclist (riding slowly due to wet conditions) on a left hand bend on the road in the hills (a blind bend) and my driver crossed over the centre of the road and I thought "you're an f***ing idiot". And sure enough a truck was coming the opposite way, very slowly fortunately driving up the hill, so we made it back to our side of the road in time. Had it been a faster travelling vehicle we could have had a head on collision. A prime example of lack driver skill or awareness.

As for the Police being involved in the Kabinburi collision - what were they thinking? Nothing, would be an apt description. But hey, they are the Police and you and I will do as they say not as they do? They do not set a fine example to other drivers/riders do they? Unfortunately so prevalent of much "authority" here in (but not limited to) Thailand

EDIT: Grammar.

Edited May 29, 2016 by lvr181