Koh Tao murders appeal reveals shocking new evidence suggesting unfair trial and wrongful conviction

[stephenterry]

What 'we' know isn't material. One must determine what is reasonable doubt before one can determine what is beyond it. Whether the Appeals Court judges are the same judges as the Samui Court or not, some seem to have already decided that they will act in a manner that would be considered as not reasonable even though the judges themselves might consider their actions to be reasonable.

The rationale for the appeal hearing being heard by judges independent of this Region 8 crew, is that there is a bona-fide conflict of interest already established. That won't happen until the case is heard by the Supreme court in BKK. I'm sure you can understand that it's not a matter of being reasonable or not, JLC.

[JLCrab]

Maybe the Prosecution will do as you say and not try to refute the specifics of the appeal but say, as they did in the 24 DEC 2015 ruling, that the testimony as offered by the 2 defendants on the night of the murders was not credible and they will stand by their decision.

[JLCrab]

What 'we' know isn't material. One must determine what is reasonable doubt before one can determine what is beyond it. Whether the Appeals Court judges are the same judges as the Samui Court or not, some seem to have already decided that they will act in a manner that would be considered as not reasonable even though the judges themselves might consider their actions to be reasonable.

The rationale for the appeal hearing being heard by judges independent of this Region 8 crew, is that there is a bona-fide conflict of interest already established. That won't happen until the case is heard by the Supreme court in BKK. I'm sure you can understand that it's not a matter of being reasonable or not, JLC.

Thailand has rules of criminal procedure that were established long before this case came about that determines who would hear any appeal of a lower Court ruling.

Edited June 2, 2016 by JLCrab

[canuckamuck]

Every honest person who has followed this debacle closely knows who the real killers are and that Zaw Win and Wei Phyo are innocent scapegoats. All the internet obfuscation/perception management in the world won't change that.

It also seems that all the honest persons are not troubled by the notion that not one person -- either a local Thai, a local farang, a local Burmese worker, or a tourist from UK or elsewhere who was visiting Koh Tao the night in question -- has ever come forward publicly to say the person, who all the honest persons know is actually responsible for these crimes, was ever on the island the night in question.

Not many people are eager to rat out a guy who seems to have special protection from the RTP and above.

A guy who can get away with murder, literally.

So much for every honest person.

Perhaps it's innuendo overload here because I don't know what you mean, and perhaps you don't know what I mean.

[JLCrab]

My implication is simple: Either there is not one single person currently in Thailand, the UK, or elsewhere who has any credible evidence and is willing to come forward to implicate those who may be actually responsible for the crimes, or the reason that no one has come forward with any such evidence is that there IS no person with any such evidence.

[stephenterry]

What 'we' know isn't material. One must determine what is reasonable doubt before one can determine what is beyond it. Whether the Appeals Court judges are the same judges as the Samui Court or not, some seem to have already decided that they will act in a manner that would be considered as not reasonable even though the judges themselves might consider their actions to be reasonable.

The rationale for the appeal hearing being heard by judges independent of this Region 8 crew, is that there is a bona-fide conflict of interest already established. That won't happen until the case is heard by the Supreme court in BKK. I'm sure you can understand that it's not a matter of being reasonable or not, JLC.

Thailand has rules of criminal procedure that were established long before this case came about that determines who would hear any appeal of a lower Court ruling.

As I said. Cannot expect a 'reasonable' outcome from 'reasonable' judges, who are members of the Regional 8 crew. I would be astonished if they moved away from the convictions, although the sentences may be lessened.

[stephenterry]

My implication is simple: Either there is not one single person currently in Thailand, the UK, or elsewhere who has any credible evidence and is willing to come forward to implicate those who may be actually responsible for the crimes, or the reason that no one has come forward with any such evidence is that there IS no person with any such evidence.

Would you, if you had any evidence that would implicate the real perps? And who would you go and see who would take action? The RTP? The British embassy? London's Metropolitan police? I certainly wouldn't risk my life and my family's lives here in Thailand for a lost cause (now).

Nevertheless, Laura Witheridge stated that the RTP offered the family money to not rock the boat, and keep quiet. One could interpret that offer in a number of ways, none of which indicates an honest approach towards the accused (at that time), and possibly indicates a cover-up of those prepared to pay for silence.

[JLCrab]

What 'we' know isn't material. One must determine what is reasonable doubt before one can determine what is beyond it. Whether the Appeals Court judges are the same judges as the Samui Court or not, some seem to have already decided that they will act in a manner that would be considered as not reasonable even though the judges themselves might consider their actions to be reasonable.

The rationale for the appeal hearing being heard by judges independent of this Region 8 crew, is that there is a bona-fide conflict of interest already established. That won't happen until the case is heard by the Supreme court in BKK. I'm sure you can understand that it's not a matter of being reasonable or not, JLC.

Thailand has rules of criminal procedure that were established long before this case came about that determines who would hear any appeal of a lower Court ruling.

As I said. Cannot expect a 'reasonable' outcome from 'reasonable' judges, who are members of the Regional 8 crew. I would be astonished if they moved away from the convictions, although the sentences may be lessened.

Maybe when they established the current Rules of Criminal Procedure in 1934 they were not aware that such rules created an inherent conflict of interest as you have pointed out. Actually you probably could expect a reasonable outcome from reasonable judges but it seems that whole tenor of the Appeal as filed is that the Samui Court Judges did not act in a reasonable manner in establishing what was the criteria for reasonable doubt.

[JLCrab]

My implication is simple: Either there is not one single person currently in Thailand, the UK, or elsewhere who has any credible evidence and is willing to come forward to implicate those who may be actually responsible for the crimes, or the reason that no one has come forward with any such evidence is that there IS no person with any such evidence.

Would you, if you had any evidence that would implicate the real perps? And who would you go and see who would take action? The RTP? The British embassy? London's Metropolitan police? I certainly wouldn't risk my life and my family's lives here in Thailand for a lost cause (now).

Nevertheless, Laura Witheridge stated that the RTP offered the family money to not rock the boat, and keep quiet. One could interpret that offer in a number of ways, none of which indicates an honest approach towards the accused (at that time), and possibly indicates a cover-up of those prepared to pay for silence.

Before the trial it might have made a difference but, again, you are suggesting that there maybe are such persons who maybe saw The Kid propositioning the late Ms. Witheridge and stomping off in a fit after his advances were spurned but the reason that nobody has come forward with any such first-hand evidence is not your boogeyman theory but that such incident never occurred.

Of course it is moot point what you would do if you had any such information because you do not have any such information and maybe no one else does either.

Edited June 2, 2016 by JLCrab

[Khun Han]

The case against the B2: Zero actual evidence, some people making spurious, unsubstantiated claims, and some other people accepting those claims at face value.

By the way, Foreign crooks are known to raise their defamation summonses on Koh Samui against journalism exposes, no matter where in Thailand any of the parties reside or where in Thailand the exposes were done. Apparently, the courts on Samui are known to be quite sympathetic toward these crooks' hurt feelings .

[Remi080]

And this all happends in " the ASEAN HUB of JUSTCE" .

Sick!

[xylophone]

According to a 'helpful' expert called in by Andy hall & associates the defense of the 1st trial was very poorly scrambled

One of the reason's cited was that lack of proper legal knowledge was debit on the performance & wrong strategy.

Source. FB account Andy Hall.

Personal note.

I lived and worked in Thailand for more then 3 decades .......have seen, heard and witnessed all the good the bad and the ugly.

But NEVER in my life i could have (and actually still can't) imagine That Thai justice is able to pick up 2 young people @ random, and 'convict' them for something they have no part in whatsoever.

This is Thailand and corruption is endemic and money talks, so this is easy to understand if one has experienced it first hand. If you want confirmation just read the news about the wealthy getting away with murder, so not a long stretch of the imagination required to see what has happened on Koh Tao.

Thai Police most corrupt..docx

[JLCrab]

The case against the B2: Zero actual evidence, some people making spurious, unsubstantiated claims, and some other people accepting those claims at face value.

<snip>

You made the comment:

"Every honest person who has followed this debacle closely knows who the real killers are ..."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/921678-koh-tao-murders-appeal-reveals-shocking-new-evidence-suggesting-unfair-trial-and-wrongful-conviction/page-5#entry10811968

In 25 words or so, how do you know who the real killers are?

Edited June 2, 2016 by JLCrab

[canuckamuck]

My implication is simple: Either there is not one single person currently in Thailand, the UK, or elsewhere who has any credible evidence and is willing to come forward to implicate those who may be actually responsible for the crimes, or the reason that no one has come forward with any such evidence is that there IS no person with any such evidence.

Would you, if you had any evidence that would implicate the real perps? And who would you go and see who would take action? The RTP? The British embassy? London's Metropolitan police? I certainly wouldn't risk my life and my family's lives here in Thailand for a lost cause (now).

Nevertheless, Laura Witheridge stated that the RTP offered the family money to not rock the boat, and keep quiet. One could interpret that offer in a number of ways, none of which indicates an honest approach towards the accused (at that time), and possibly indicates a cover-up of those prepared to pay for silence.

Before the trial it might have made a difference but, again, you are suggesting that there maybe are such persons who maybe saw The Kid propositioning the late Ms. Witheridge and stomping off in a fit after his advances were spurned but the reason that nobody has come forward with any such first-hand evidence is not your boogeyman theory but that such incident never occurred.

Of course it is moot point what you would do if you had any such information because you do not have any such information and maybe no one else does either.

You are entitled to your opinion of course. But I have no trouble believing that the majority of people who live on Koh Tao would be too afraid too bring any evidence forward. In fact it would be a tremendously foolish thing to do, unless you had top level connections.

So your theory dies right there.

[JLCrab]

No -- because your explanation assumes that there are such persons sitting on implicating information who are afraid to come forward.

And while you may be correct that the majority of any such persons would be afraid to come forward, all it might take would be for just one to do so.

Edited June 2, 2016 by JLCrab

[Nigeone]

The General has a incredible opportunity here to make a stand and put Thailand finally on a straight and

Honest way forward...I'm not holding my breath !!!

[TheLobster]

Every honest person who has followed this debacle closely knows who the real killers are and that Zaw Win and Wei Phyo are innocent scapegoats. All the internet obfuscation/perception management in the world won't change that.

It also seems that all the honest persons are not troubled by the notion that not one person -- either a local Thai, a local farang, a local Burmese worker, or a tourist from UK or elsewhere who was visiting Koh Tao the night in question -- has ever come forward publicly to say the person, who all the honest persons know is actually responsible for these crimes, was ever on the island the night in question.

And we know why that is because if anyone actually told the truth they would be dead .......

My implication is simple: Either there is not one single person currently in Thailand, the UK, or elsewhere who has any credible evidence and is willing to come forward to implicate those who may be actually responsible for the crimes, or the reason that no one has come forward with any such evidence is that there IS no person with any such evidence.

Repitition? and more in later posts .....

[JLCrab]

Every honest person who has followed this debacle closely knows who the real killers are and that Zaw Win and Wei Phyo are innocent scapegoats. All the internet obfuscation/perception management in the world won't change that.

It also seems that all the honest persons are not troubled by the notion that not one person -- either a local Thai, a local farang, a local Burmese worker, or a tourist from UK or elsewhere who was visiting Koh Tao the night in question -- has ever come forward publicly to say the person, who all the honest persons know is actually responsible for these crimes, was ever on the island the night in question.

And we know why that is because if anyone actually told the truth they would be dead .......

My implication is simple: Either there is not one single person currently in Thailand, the UK, or elsewhere who has any credible evidence and is willing to come forward to implicate those who may be actually responsible for the crimes, or the reason that no one has come forward with any such evidence is that there IS no person with any such evidence.

Repitition? and more in later posts .....

That's right -- the death squads from Koh Tao would sent post haste to London to rub out anyone who spoke to The Daily Mirror. Not only has no one to my knowledge spoke publicly, no one has gone online to CSI LA or ThailandJustice anonymously to say that they were there that evening and saw ... OK I won't repeat it.

Repeating however "everybody knows who are the real killers" is OK even though no one ever says just how they know who are the real killers just that everybody knows so it must be true..

But if the family really knew that there was someone out there in possession of tangible evidence to prove the culpability of the real killers, why take a chance? Take them out already as a preemptive measure.

Edited June 2, 2016 by JLCrab

[T_Dog]

The government does need to go after the real killers, but pressure will not come from anyone living down in Koh Tao or from the police. Old story here showing some of the early statements that were later highly revised.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-free-bar-owners-and-look-for-ex-village-hea-30243997.html

[JLCrab]

"Go after" -- is that a technical term? How do they go after anyone when anybody who knows anything as we were advised above would be scared to come forward lest they be wiped out by those who are being gone after? A good start to go after those the real killers would be to find someone who actually can say that they saw the real killers on the island there on the night in question but that ain't happened yet.

I wrote last spring 2015, before the trial, that the real killers may be not the 2 Burmese who have been now convicted of the crimes and not the family who 'lives across the street' from where the bodies of the 2 unfortunate victims were found, but possibly persons belonging to a rival mafia family on the island or possibly other tourists who went back to their hotel and calmly checked out the next morning and left on the early ferry before the ferries were locked down.

Edited June 2, 2016 by JLCrab

[canuckamuck]

No -- because your explanation assumes that there are such persons sitting on implicating information who are afraid to come forward.

And while you may be correct that the majority of any such persons would be afraid to come forward, all it might take would be for just one to do so.

It is your theory that is running on the assumption that, no one has come forward, so therefore no one has any evidence. I have pointed out that there a very good reasons for people to not come forward. Which means your premise is faulty. Finding a witness willing to talk is extremely unlikely. The only possibility would be foreigners who do not live in Thailand, but it does not appear that any foreigners saw anything. It was 4 AM after all. There were some french girls who say they heard something, but that is it.

However I do understand that the point you are trying to make in your awkward way is that: no one (on this forum at least) that says they know the truth has actually heard from witnesses or been shown the smoking gun. This is probably true, But when people say they know who did it, they are saying that they have considered the facts they have and compared it to their experience of how things are done here, and they have come to a conclusion.

If you talk to Thai people that have followed this case, you will see that they also have come to the same conclusion.

Somewhere in one of the movies you are so fond of you must have come across a character that worked hard to prove something he knew happened, but had not witnessed.

[JLCrab]

You haven't pointed out at all that anyone actually HAS any evidence, just that, if they did have any evidence, they would not come forward which yields the same net result as if nobody has any evidence.

And one of my favorites is Sir Alfred Hirtchcok's use of what he called the 'MacGuffin which can be a plot element or character that everyone is chasing after but actually doesn't exist but everything has reasons for believing it does exist even though it doesn't exist.

Edited June 3, 2016 by JLCrab

[canuckamuck]

You haven't pointed out at all that anyone actually HAS any evidence, just that, if they did have any evidence, they would not come forward which yields the same net result as if nobody has any evidence.

And one of my favorites is Sir Alfred Hirtchcok's use of what he called the 'MacGuffin which can be a plot element or character that everyone is chasing after but actually doesn't exist but everything has reasons for believing it does exist even though it doesn't exist.

The first part leads me to believe we are not really understanding each other's point.

I gave you a like for the second part.

[JLCrab]

You haven't pointed out at all that anyone actually HAS any evidence, just that, if they did have any evidence, they would not come forward which yields the same net result as if nobody has any evidence.

And one of my favorites is Sir Alfred Hirtchcok's use of what he called the 'MacGuffin which can be a plot element or character that everyone is chasing after but actually doesn't exist but everything has reasons for believing it does exist even though it doesn't exist.

The first part leads me to believe we are not really understanding each other's point.

I gave you a like for the second part.

I think I got your point: Everyone knows who the real killer is because everyone says that they know who the real killer is.

[canuckamuck]

You haven't pointed out at all that anyone actually HAS any evidence, just that, if they did have any evidence, they would not come forward which yields the same net result as if nobody has any evidence.

And one of my favorites is Sir Alfred Hirtchcok's use of what he called the 'MacGuffin which can be a plot element or character that everyone is chasing after but actually doesn't exist but everything has reasons for believing it does exist even though it doesn't exist.

The first part leads me to believe we are not really understanding each other's point.

I gave you a like for the second part.

I think I got your point: Everyone knows who the real killer is because everyone says that they know who the real killer is.

Just change knows to 'are convinced they know'. The hair you are splitting is the different implications of the word know.

[JLCrab]

People are allowed to convince themselves of anything they want.

The only person that I'm aware who has posted on ThaiVisa who says that he was at the AC Bar the night in question and would know The Kid by sight said that, at least for time HE was at the AC Bar, he did not see the kid,

... at which point the vox populi manure truck backed up to his postings.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/838898-koh-tao-trial-opens-for-2-accused-of-killing-british-tourists/?view=findpost&p=9659889

[Inn Between]

Koh Tao murders appeal reveals shocking new lack of evidence suggesting unfair trial and wrongful convictions

Edited June 3, 2016 by Inn Between

[Aj Mick]

"Go after" -- is that a technical term? How do they go after anyone when anybody who knows anything as we were advised above would be scared to come forward lest they be wiped out by those who are being gone after? A good start to go after those the real killers would be to find someone who actually can say that they saw the real killers on the island there on the night in question but that ain't happened yet.

I wrote last spring 2015, before the trial, that the real killers may be not the 2 Burmese who have been now convicted of the crimes and not the family who 'lives across the street' from where the bodies of the 2 unfortunate victims were found, but possibly persons belonging to a rival mafia family on the island or possibly other tourists who went back to their hotel and calmly checked out the next morning and left on the early ferry before the ferries were locked down.

Well done suggesting that the real killers might not be the 2 Burmese. A survey on this forum suggests that more than 92% of respondents concur.

Nice try in suggesting a number of other possibilities that take the heat off certain other suspects, who have never really been cleared. Just that the investigators have avoided / been warned off using anything that could implicate them. The RTP and the prosecutors (and a few on this forum) have done all they can to keep the heat off the original suspects for whom, it was stated, they had evidence to prove they were involved including CCTV recordings.

The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon. He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao. He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said. He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok. He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/63714

Edited June 3, 2016 by Aj Mick

[JLCrab]

92% huh? Well that fixes that. Stunning bit of police work: Let's suspect the people who live across the street.

So maybe, when in the first week or 2 of the investigation and they suspected that maybe these crimes were committed by the people who live across the street,, they then realized maybe it wasn't the people who live across the street.

As for nice try, pulling up newspaper articles from September 2014 that everybody has seen dozens of times is a nice try as well.

Edited June 3, 2016 by JLCrab

[stephenterry]

On the balance of reasonable probability - that the initial police investigation identified both Mon and Nomsod on CCTV as being implicated in the murders, that translators at the court trial were warned off by mafia thugs, and the subsequent suspicious deaths of farangs on Koh Tao, plus the total failure of the RTP to produce any verified/substantiated/validated evidence that could implicate the B2 - it could be reasoned that Thai thugs were involved in these crimes, and their crimes have been covered up by the authorities.

Statistically, it is more likely for Thais to have been involved as they are the dominant populace on the island, and have complete freedom to break the law whenever they choose without any comeback.

The case for a minority, e.g. a couple of farangs, or migrant workers ACTUALLY committing these crimes is weak, and had that been the case, these perps would have been rounded up post-haste by the Thai locals, particularly the migrant workers, as soon as the RTP arrived. Also, according to reports re Koh Tao the tourist areas are never quiet - all the more reason why influential/powerful thugs can get away with murder without any locals grassing them up - or else.