Yingluck Shinawatra steps back into Thailand's political arena

[scorecard]

Did the children's smiles drop when they realised their tablets hadn't finally arrived?

Wonder if any of the tablets issued a few years back are now actually used by the teachers and students and have any new innovative official software issued by the education ministry?

[tuanku]

It seems to have been forgotten she is still in court over her involvement in the rice pledging scheme.

If found guilty, she will have that to still contend with, a possible jail term & most likely appeals process.

Guess clever "puppeteer from Dubai" come up with a way around Junta laws!!

BBC must be light on for real news items, to have a reporter follow Yingluck around the countryside.

Once out from under the shadow of the military, you can probably expect a whole lot of political verdicts and sentences to be overturned and much of the new laws enacted by the junta to be declared unconstitutional and illegal, including the vaunted charter itself should it get past the referendum. The question is only how long this will take, years if the people don't get fed up enough to throw the junta out, much less than that if there is a mass movement to restore democracy.

And this is news enough for you and me and all the others commenting on this thread to be engaged.

The key word in the article is "telegenic". It is a huge advantage to be more attractive and more dignified and more caring than the opposition in politics, and her manner with people is well judged, unlike Prayuth and any of his fellow military whose innate sense of superiority and entitlement oozes out through every pore.

Telegenic - absolutely. She is of the most telegenic and photogenic pretend politicians in the world. Absolutely one, if not the best. Her brother certainly knew what he was doing when he picked her as the pretty to front his political party.

"Dignified and Caring" - your're having a laugh! Good actress most certainly although she forgets her lines or muddles them up occasionally.

By comparison with Prayuth she is both dignified and caring (or gives that impression which amounts to the same thing in politics). Inbuilt disadvantage in the royalist elite is that they cannot find anyone who comes across as remotely able to connect with the ordinary rural voters. That's why they are so scared of anything resembling real democracy. They have allowed PTP and the red movement to occupy unopposed and unchallenged the ground which belongs to socialists and liberals in Europe.

[tuanku]

Did the children's smiles drop when they realised their tablets hadn't finally arrived?

I doubt it very much, i think they were probably delighted to get a visit from someone "nice and important" who didn't expect them to recite 12 meaningless rules every day of their school lives.

They probably felt valued to receive a visit from the last elected prime minister of Thailand. When they come of age to vote, I am sure they will remember this, if democracy has been restored by then.

They might respond well to a Prayuth visit too - pity he is not likely to have the courage to find out.

You are right, as long as it is someone "nice and important", and they are told they will be on TV, they couldn't care less about who it is. But being of the right age, they might remember the broken promise to them specifically, even though they are too young to appreciate the huge waste of public funds involved.

If you have children, try promising them an expensive gadget and then try palming them off with a cheapo piece of crap, or renege completely claiming it was the parent's version of an election promise, only meant to fool the gullible.

I would agree that election promises don't really fool anyone, and that today's children are not easily impressed with a 2000 baht Chinese made tablet. The tablet buying programme was more of an attraction to the purchasers in the Education Ministry who stood to siphon off millions in backhanders and commissions. They are the ones who were probably really upset.

[tuanku]

Once again just the name of Yingluck has caused so many responses .

Why?

It's pretty simple. It doesn't matter whether you support the

Yingluck Abhisit or the Current bloke in charge or for that matter another party.

If elections were held fair and square today Yingluck would landslide it.

Given the changes being proposed that just might not be the case.

You are quite correct.What drives some people crazy is the knowledge - though they would never admit it even to themselves - that she is by a great length the most popular politician in the country.Added to this she was the last legitimate Prime Minister and was acknowledged as such internationally - in contrast to the current coolness by all free societies towards Thailand's rulers.

Actually there is a lot to criticise Yingluck for.By any reasonable criteria she was unqualified to be PM as is the case with the current PM, the difference being one was legitimate and one is not.She has a certain charisma and although not unintelligent would not normally be considered to have the necessary skill set.

The critics of Yingluck might be pardoned even endorsed if they showed some moral integrity or balance.If one saw some evidence they had equal distaste for the repression,arrogance and incompetence of the current Junta and its appointed stooges.But that we never see.

Not sure what qualifications are needed for leading a country. Those held by Donald Trump? Ronald Reagan? King Mswati of Swaziland? Mugabe? Stalin? Pol Pot? Ho Chi Minh? Berlusconi? Seems to me that (apparent) engagement with ordinary people might be right up there, and the (apparent) ability to listen and empathise. After all the economic policies and clever stuff can be done by the cabinet if one has a suitably qualified bunch.

Even the most ardent of junta Fans can surely see that Prayuth, Prawit, Suthep, et al would be absolute polling booth disasters in a fair election, which is why the election if it comes will be rigged. Many leaders are better in their second term than their first anyway.

It is a sign of the impoverished political landscape in this country that someone like Yingluck with her family history is THE outstanding leadership candidate!

[halloween]

If JH had been here for the 2011 campaign he could have attended the rally where Yingluk spontaneously and unilaterally raised PTP's policy price for pledged rice at the urging of a heckler. The change was initially denied by PTP, then accepted to save embarrassment for their leader. It would eventually increase the inevitable losses by billions of baht.

You have to wonder if she would have been so generous, or economically ignorant, if she known it would come out of her own wealth rather than just wasting taxpayers' money.

The government putting public funds back into the economy as subsidies is a well accepted part of Government practice worldwide and is also done by the current sham government. The idea is not the issue, its exploitation for private gain and mismanagement is, and that is what the generals are trying to pin on Yingluck.

However money recirculated in the economy is not "lost" at all. It is just recirculated.

If it was your money that ended up in some criminals pocket, leaving you empty-handed and wondering what happened, you might consider it lost. When the money belongs to somebody else, it's easy to fritter it away on 'recirculation'. The idea is certainly the issue with me; I don't accept at all that politicians have the right to waste huge amounts of taxpayer's money on a scheme whose only sustainable objective is getting them elected.

BTW had a ride on Malaysia's ETS 140km/h electric train, very nice indeed. Couldn't help wondering if SRT having B600 billions worth of those wouldn't be preferable to a pile of rotting rice.

[tuanku]

Once again just the name of Yingluck has caused so many responses .

Why?

It's pretty simple. It doesn't matter whether you support the

Yingluck Abhisit or the Current bloke in charge or for that matter another party.

If elections were held fair and square today Yingluck would landslide it.

Given the changes being proposed that just might not be the case.

I think you forget that when she was PM she never answered any questions the opposition had. She hardly showed up in parliament. Her only, almost, achievement was clearing the Shin clan of their crimes. Elections are not the solution to fixing corruption and fake red democracy.

Elections are not the solution to fixing corruption and fake red democracy.

Nor are coups, apparently.

And the problems now are corruption and genuine kakistocracy

[halloween]

Did the children's smiles drop when they realised their tablets hadn't finally arrived?

I doubt it very much, i think they were probably delighted to get a visit from someone "nice and important" who didn't expect them to recite 12 meaningless rules every day of their school lives.

They probably felt valued to receive a visit from the last elected prime minister of Thailand. When they come of age to vote, I am sure they will remember this, if democracy has been restored by then.

They might respond well to a Prayuth visit too - pity he is not likely to have the courage to find out.

You are right, as long as it is someone "nice and important", and they are told they will be on TV, they couldn't care less about who it is. But being of the right age, they might remember the broken promise to them specifically, even though they are too young to appreciate the huge waste of public funds involved.

If you have children, try promising them an expensive gadget and then try palming them off with a cheapo piece of crap, or renege completely claiming it was the parent's version of an election promise, only meant to fool the gullible.

I would agree that election promises don't really fool anyone, and that today's children are not easily impressed with a 2000 baht Chinese made tablet. The tablet buying programme was more of an attraction to the purchasers in the Education Ministry who stood to siphon off millions in backhanders and commissions. They are the ones who were probably really upset.

Well the moneys gone with SFA to show for it, so somebody's laughing. It would be nice to think that election promises don't fool anyone, but OTOH we have the Thai voters who remind me of characters from Gullible's Travels.

[tuanku]

If JH had been here for the 2011 campaign he could have attended the rally where Yingluk spontaneously and unilaterally raised PTP's policy price for pledged rice at the urging of a heckler. The change was initially denied by PTP, then accepted to save embarrassment for their leader. It would eventually increase the inevitable losses by billions of baht.

You have to wonder if she would have been so generous, or economically ignorant, if she known it would come out of her own wealth rather than just wasting taxpayers' money.

The government putting public funds back into the economy as subsidies is a well accepted part of Government practice worldwide and is also done by the current sham government. The idea is not the issue, its exploitation for private gain and mismanagement is, and that is what the generals are trying to pin on Yingluck.

However money recirculated in the economy is not "lost" at all. It is just recirculated.

If it was your money that ended up in some criminals pocket, leaving you empty-handed and wondering what happened, you might consider it lost. When the money belongs to somebody else, it's easy to fritter it away on 'recirculation'. The idea is certainly the issue with me; I don't accept at all that politicians have the right to waste huge amounts of taxpayer's money on a scheme whose only sustainable objective is getting them elected.

BTW had a ride on Malaysia's ETS 140km/h electric train, very nice indeed. Couldn't help wondering if SRT having B600 billions worth of those wouldn't be preferable to a pile of rotting rice.

Unless you are a taxpayer and voter in Thailand you have neither the moral right to take issue with the spending of taxes nor the power to do anything about it anyway.

The nature of politics is that politicians will try to find ways of being elected - its kind of built into the system. If they come up with a subsidy that actually sounds fair and good to millions of voters then it seems to me a democratic process to offer it to voters and see if it gets them elected. The idea is sound enough, it's the mismanagement and exploitation of the loopholes, (mainly by warehouses, govt officials, millers and distributers apparently) which is where the criminality might come in, although IMO they are aiming too high up the chain of command to show direct involvement and culpability.

The majority of Thai people outside the Bangkok middle classes would see no benefit whatsoever from a 140km/h electric train which must be one of the most bizarre suggestions I have seen on this forum. I suggest you, like the ruling elite, are out of touch with what the majority of Thai people want and need from their Government, which is why politicians like the Shinawatras will beat you/them every time in a free and fair election.

[tuanku]

I doubt it very much, i think they were probably delighted to get a visit from someone "nice and important" who didn't expect them to recite 12 meaningless rules every day of their school lives.

They probably felt valued to receive a visit from the last elected prime minister of Thailand. When they come of age to vote, I am sure they will remember this, if democracy has been restored by then.

They might respond well to a Prayuth visit too - pity he is not likely to have the courage to find out.

You are right, as long as it is someone "nice and important", and they are told they will be on TV, they couldn't care less about who it is. But being of the right age, they might remember the broken promise to them specifically, even though they are too young to appreciate the huge waste of public funds involved.

If you have children, try promising them an expensive gadget and then try palming them off with a cheapo piece of crap, or renege completely claiming it was the parent's version of an election promise, only meant to fool the gullible.

I would agree that election promises don't really fool anyone, and that today's children are not easily impressed with a 2000 baht Chinese made tablet. The tablet buying programme was more of an attraction to the purchasers in the Education Ministry who stood to siphon off millions in backhanders and commissions. They are the ones who were probably really upset.

Well the moneys gone with SFA to show for it, so somebody's laughing. It would be nice to think that election promises don't fool anyone, but OTOH we have the Thai voters who remind me of characters from Gullible's Travels.

With the army in charge, the kids can go on school trips to military bases to look at the tanks and submarines and aircraft carriers bought by their parents tax baht.. Way more educational and the Army get to manage the defence budget without civilian oversight. Gotta be a win-win!

[halloween]

With the army in charge, the kids can go on school trips to military bases to look at the tanks and submarines and aircraft carriers bought by their parents tax baht.. Way more educational and the Army get to manage the defence budget without civilian oversight. Gotta be a win-win!

Hard to defend PTP's waste isn't it? Much easier to change the subject. But when the kids go to military bases to look at the hardware (which btw includes a lot of trucks, helicopters, etc that come in handy during floods and other civil disasters) they can at least see what was bought in their name. Which is a lot more satisfying than going to a school to see the new electronic teaching, or a tour of the rice stockpile. Especially as PTP's waste ran into many multiples of the military budget.

[jayboy]

It seems to have been forgotten she is still in court over her involvement in the rice pledging scheme.

If found guilty, she will have that to still contend with, a possible jail term & most likely appeals process.

Guess clever "puppeteer from Dubai" come up with a way around Junta laws!!

BBC must be light on for real news items, to have a reporter follow Yingluck around the countryside.

Once out from under the shadow of the military, you can probably expect a whole lot of political verdicts and sentences to be overturned and much of the new laws enacted by the junta to be declared unconstitutional and illegal, including the vaunted charter itself should it get past the referendum. The question is only how long this will take, years if the people don't get fed up enough to throw the junta out, much less than that if there is a mass movement to restore democracy.

And this is news enough for you and me and all the others commenting on this thread to be engaged.

The key word in the article is "telegenic". It is a huge advantage to be more attractive and more dignified and more caring than the opposition in politics, and her manner with people is well judged, unlike Prayuth and any of his fellow military whose innate sense of superiority and entitlement oozes out through every pore.

Telegenic - absolutely. She is of the most telegenic and photogenic pretend politicians in the world. Absolutely one, if not the best. Her brother certainly knew what he was doing when he picked her as the pretty to front his political party.

"Dignified and Caring" - your're having a laugh! Good actress most certainly although she forgets her lines or muddles them up occasionally.

By comparison with Prayuth she is both dignified and caring (or gives that impression which amounts to the same thing in politics). Inbuilt disadvantage in the royalist elite is that they cannot find anyone who comes across as remotely able to connect with the ordinary rural voters. That's why they are so scared of anything resembling real democracy. They have allowed PTP and the red movement to occupy unopposed and unchallenged the ground which belongs to socialists and liberals in Europe.

Which brings us to the inexplicable inability or unwillingness of the Democratic Party to reform itself, change the leadership and become once more a player in the central ground of Thai politics.

[halloween]

If it was your money that ended up in some criminals pocket, leaving you empty-handed and wondering what happened, you might consider it lost. When the money belongs to somebody else, it's easy to fritter it away on 'recirculation'. The idea is certainly the issue with me; I don't accept at all that politicians have the right to waste huge amounts of taxpayer's money on a scheme whose only sustainable objective is getting them elected.

BTW had a ride on Malaysia's ETS 140km/h electric train, very nice indeed. Couldn't help wondering if SRT having B600 billions worth of those wouldn't be preferable to a pile of rotting rice.

Unless you are a taxpayer and voter in Thailand you have neither the moral right to take issue with the spending of taxes nor the power to do anything about it anyway.

The nature of politics is that politicians will try to find ways of being elected - its kind of built into the system. If they come up with a subsidy that actually sounds fair and good to millions of voters then it seems to me a democratic process to offer it to voters and see if it gets them elected. The idea is sound enough, it's the mismanagement and exploitation of the loopholes, (mainly by warehouses, govt officials, millers and distributers apparently) which is where the criminality might come in, although IMO they are aiming too high up the chain of command to show direct involvement and culpability.

The majority of Thai people outside the Bangkok middle classes would see no benefit whatsoever from a 140km/h electric train which must be one of the most bizarre suggestions I have seen on this forum. I suggest you, like the ruling elite, are out of touch with what the majority of Thai people want and need from their Government, which is why politicians like the Shinawatras will beat you/them every time in a free and fair election.

What a load of <deleted>. I pay tax on nearly every purchase I make to support my family, and I have every right to object to tax money which belongs to them being wasted. And I can certainly influence the way they vote by pointing out waste and criminality.

It seems its everyone else at fault EXCEPT those who put ill-considered policies without any analysis of cost/benefit. Democracy requires an educated and INFORMED populace - how can they be informed if the proposers don't bother with due diligence?

You don't like a medium speed train? Would they benefit from hospitals, schools, roads, railway crossings, cheaper public transport, any public expenditure but wasteful vote-buying scams? Or are they only for the "elite" too? When Thai politicians are forced to take responsibility for their policies, as Yingluk is now, the Shinawatras are finished. When their loony-tunes, get-rich-quick, pie in the sky promises are critically examined, the whole illusion collapses.

BTW the train was full with Malaysian "elite" most who looked much like ordinary working people and families. There was also a cheaper rail-car service which was standing room only - more 'elite' I suppose.

[tuanku]

With the army in charge, the kids can go on school trips to military bases to look at the tanks and submarines and aircraft carriers bought by their parents tax baht.. Way more educational and the Army get to manage the defence budget without civilian oversight. Gotta be a win-win!

Hard to defend PTP's waste isn't it? Much easier to change the subject. But when the kids go to military bases to look at the hardware (which btw includes a lot of trucks, helicopters, etc that come in handy during floods and other civil disasters) they can at least see what was bought in their name. Which is a lot more satisfying than going to a school to see the new electronic teaching, or a tour of the rice stockpile. Especially as PTP's waste ran into many multiples of the military budget.

Money put back into circulation by the government, be it in subsidies, infrastructure projects or domestic spending is NOT wasted. It keeps the economy going and circulates within it. Money spent on military hardware bought overseas IS wasted, particularly in a country that is not at war. The Thai army has undoubtedly killed more Thais in the last 50 years than citizens of any other nation, so one could say the Thai army mainly fights Thai civilians and its more exotic hardware is therefore unnecessary.

The Thai defence budget is roughly 5.4 billion USD or about 200 billion baht. That could be argued to "benefit" the 550,000 military personnel on active service, although what benefit they might derive from submarine purchase is hard to say. so roughly 400,000 baht per soldier.

Incidentally 200 billion baht is roughly what rice exports alone earned for the Government in 2014

If one takes the inflated figure of 600 billion baht "cost" of the rice scheme, ignoring for the moment the fact that apart from the corruption element, that money simply circulated in the economy and mostly found its way back to the government) which "benefited" roughly 45 million rural Thais then that works out at about 133,000 per farmer and dependent. Quite apart from the fact that the rural population produces and exports while the armed forces consume and import.

I would therefore argue that the military budget wastes many multiples of any economic subsidy disbursed by the previous Government.

I do concede that in Education and other departments with large budgets there is huge waste through corruption in procurement. Some authorities put the figure as high as 20% of the budget. The Defence budget is particularly prone to this as there is no effective civilian oversight of spending and no transparency.

[cdnvic]

Removed a very slanderous post and the posts that inexplicably quoted it.

[tuanku]

Unless you are a taxpayer and voter in Thailand you have neither the moral right to take issue with the spending of taxes nor the power to do anything about it anyway.

The nature of politics is that politicians will try to find ways of being elected - its kind of built into the system. If they come up with a subsidy that actually sounds fair and good to millions of voters then it seems to me a democratic process to offer it to voters and see if it gets them elected. The idea is sound enough, it's the mismanagement and exploitation of the loopholes, (mainly by warehouses, govt officials, millers and distributers apparently) which is where the criminality might come in, although IMO they are aiming too high up the chain of command to show direct involvement and culpability.

The majority of Thai people outside the Bangkok middle classes would see no benefit whatsoever from a 140km/h electric train which must be one of the most bizarre suggestions I have seen on this forum. I suggest you, like the ruling elite, are out of touch with what the majority of Thai people want and need from their Government, which is why politicians like the Shinawatras will beat you/them every time in a free and fair election.

What a load of <deleted>. I pay tax on nearly every purchase I make to support my family, and I have every right to object to tax money which belongs to them being wasted. And I can certainly influence the way they vote by pointing out waste and criminality.

It seems its everyone else at fault EXCEPT those who put ill-considered policies without any analysis of cost/benefit. Democracy requires an educated and INFORMED populace - how can they be informed if the proposers don't bother with due diligence?

You don't like a medium speed train? Would they benefit from hospitals, schools, roads, railway crossings, cheaper public transport, any public expenditure but wasteful vote-buying scams? Or are they only for the "elite" too? When Thai politicians are forced to take responsibility for their policies, as Yingluk is now, the Shinawatras are finished. When their loony-tunes, get-rich-quick, pie in the sky promises are critically examined, the whole illusion collapses.

BTW the train was full with Malaysian "elite" most who looked much like ordinary working people and families. There was also a cheaper rail-car service which was standing room only - more 'elite' I suppose.

If the junta supporters on this forum held Prayuth and his handlers to the same standards as they want to apply to elected politicians from the other side, they would not appear so hypocritical. (where is the cost/benefit and due diligence on the single gateway or the submarine purchases)

Where is the drive to INFORM (not brainwash) the populace so that they can make educated decisions?

Where is the justice in military court trials in camera?

The Shinawatras will not be finished as long as they are the ONLY other choice

Elites , Malaysian or Thai do not ride on public transport whatever speed it goes. They have chauffeurs. Middle class urban commuters ride on trains and they are an important constituency for the Royalist Elite.

The rural population already have hospitals, schools etc. They might say they really need income security in order to be able to use these things, such as for example, a guaranteed fair price for their farm produce, but i wouldn't want to put words in their mouths. Better to offer them a free and wide choice of so they can elect the Government that they see as the best for them and which spends their tax income in the way they see as fair.

[halloween]

With the army in charge, the kids can go on school trips to military bases to look at the tanks and submarines and aircraft carriers bought by their parents tax baht.. Way more educational and the Army get to manage the defence budget without civilian oversight. Gotta be a win-win!

Hard to defend PTP's waste isn't it? Much easier to change the subject. But when the kids go to military bases to look at the hardware (which btw includes a lot of trucks, helicopters, etc that come in handy during floods and other civil disasters) they can at least see what was bought in their name. Which is a lot more satisfying than going to a school to see the new electronic teaching, or a tour of the rice stockpile. Especially as PTP's waste ran into many multiples of the military budget.

Money put back into circulation by the government, be it in subsidies, infrastructure projects or domestic spending is NOT wasted. It keeps the economy going and circulates within it. Money spent on military hardware bought overseas IS wasted, particularly in a country that is not at war. The Thai army has undoubtedly killed more Thais in the last 50 years than citizens of any other nation, so one could say the Thai army mainly fights Thai civilians and its more exotic hardware is therefore unnecessary.

The Thai defence budget is roughly 5.4 billion USD or about 200 billion baht. That could be argued to "benefit" the 550,000 military personnel on active service, although what benefit they might derive from submarine purchase is hard to say. so roughly 400,000 baht per soldier.

Incidentally 200 billion baht is roughly what rice exports alone earned for the Government in 2014

If one takes the inflated figure of 600 billion baht "cost" of the rice scheme, ignoring for the moment the fact that apart from the corruption element, that money simply circulated in the economy and mostly found its way back to the government) which "benefited" roughly 45 million rural Thais then that works out at about 133,000 per farmer and dependent. Quite apart from the fact that the rural population produces and exports while the armed forces consume and import.

I would therefore argue that the military budget wastes many multiples of any economic subsidy disbursed by the previous Government.

I do concede that in Education and other departments with large budgets there is huge waste through corruption in procurement. Some authorities put the figure as high as 20% of the budget. The Defence budget is particularly prone to this as there is no effective civilian oversight of spending and no transparency.

Oh please, forget your military budget distraction. I haven't been here for 50 years, but I have seen the RTA remove 2 parasitic criminal governments.

You have to be joking with your rice scam analysis. How did 45 million Thais benefit, when most were excluded or copped higher rents (who benefitted from that?)? Extrapolating that each rural Thai benefitted by B133,000 is simply ridiculous. Where all these suddenly wealthy Thais? Did the sudden wealth cause them to suicide? How many poor rural Thais suddenly went into the rice storage business, where the long term costs exceeded the value of the commodity? In reality, most of the payout was to larger scale farmers, who should have been excluded from a policy whose stated aim was to raise the income of poor Thais, to owners renting land, and to storage operators.

The simple truth is that the rice scam's sole objective was to offer a carrot to the donkeys, ensuring PTP would be elected. They knew the policy was a disaster from its earlier inception, but who cares, its taxpayer's money, not ours.

Every election policy put forward by Oz parties is subject to independent analysis, or considered a joke. Here the joke is at taxpayer's expense. Poor Yingluk, the joke has backfired.

[halloween]

Unless you are a taxpayer and voter in Thailand you have neither the moral right to take issue with the spending of taxes nor the power to do anything about it anyway.

The nature of politics is that politicians will try to find ways of being elected - its kind of built into the system. If they come up with a subsidy that actually sounds fair and good to millions of voters then it seems to me a democratic process to offer it to voters and see if it gets them elected. The idea is sound enough, it's the mismanagement and exploitation of the loopholes, (mainly by warehouses, govt officials, millers and distributers apparently) which is where the criminality might come in, although IMO they are aiming too high up the chain of command to show direct involvement and culpability.

The majority of Thai people outside the Bangkok middle classes would see no benefit whatsoever from a 140km/h electric train which must be one of the most bizarre suggestions I have seen on this forum. I suggest you, like the ruling elite, are out of touch with what the majority of Thai people want and need from their Government, which is why politicians like the Shinawatras will beat you/them every time in a free and fair election.

What a load of <deleted>. I pay tax on nearly every purchase I make to support my family, and I have every right to object to tax money which belongs to them being wasted. And I can certainly influence the way they vote by pointing out waste and criminality.

It seems its everyone else at fault EXCEPT those who put ill-considered policies without any analysis of cost/benefit. Democracy requires an educated and INFORMED populace - how can they be informed if the proposers don't bother with due diligence?

You don't like a medium speed train? Would they benefit from hospitals, schools, roads, railway crossings, cheaper public transport, any public expenditure but wasteful vote-buying scams? Or are they only for the "elite" too? When Thai politicians are forced to take responsibility for their policies, as Yingluk is now, the Shinawatras are finished. When their loony-tunes, get-rich-quick, pie in the sky promises are critically examined, the whole illusion collapses.

BTW the train was full with Malaysian "elite" most who looked much like ordinary working people and families. There was also a cheaper rail-car service which was standing room only - more 'elite' I suppose.

If the junta supporters on this forum held Prayuth and his handlers to the same standards as they want to apply to elected politicians from the other side, they would not appear so hypocritical. (where is the cost/benefit and due diligence on the single gateway or the submarine purchases)

Where is the drive to INFORM (not brainwash) the populace so that they can make educated decisions?

Where is the justice in military court trials in camera?

The Shinawatras will not be finished as long as they are the ONLY other choice

Elites , Malaysian or Thai do not ride on public transport whatever speed it goes. They have chauffeurs. Middle class urban commuters ride on trains and they are an important constituency for the Royalist Elite.

The rural population already have hospitals, schools etc. They might say they really need income security in order to be able to use these things, such as for example, a guaranteed fair price for their farm produce, but i wouldn't want to put words in their mouths. Better to offer them a free and wide choice of so they can elect the Government that they see as the best for them and which spends their tax income in the way they see as fair.

Another attempt at changing the subject? And now you don't like the middle class either?

The rural population already have hospitals, schools etc. There's not one area insufficiently serviced, or that needs an upgrade, or new equipment, so blatant waste is OK? Give them facile policies with little detail delivered by a photogenic face, and let them find out the hard way. Oh, and ignore the crimes they commit while in office, after all, they were ELECTED.

[tuanku]

With the army in charge, the kids can go on school trips to military bases to look at the tanks and submarines and aircraft carriers bought by their parents tax baht.. Way more educational and the Army get to manage the defence budget without civilian oversight. Gotta be a win-win!

Hard to defend PTP's waste isn't it? Much easier to change the subject. But when the kids go to military bases to look at the hardware (which btw includes a lot of trucks, helicopters, etc that come in handy during floods and other civil disasters) they can at least see what was bought in their name. Which is a lot more satisfying than going to a school to see the new electronic teaching, or a tour of the rice stockpile. Especially as PTP's waste ran into many multiples of the military budget.

Money put back into circulation by the government, be it in subsidies, infrastructure projects or domestic spending is NOT wasted. It keeps the economy going and circulates within it. Money spent on military hardware bought overseas IS wasted, particularly in a country that is not at war. The Thai army has undoubtedly killed more Thais in the last 50 years than citizens of any other nation, so one could say the Thai army mainly fights Thai civilians and its more exotic hardware is therefore unnecessary.

The Thai defence budget is roughly 5.4 billion USD or about 200 billion baht. That could be argued to "benefit" the 550,000 military personnel on active service, although what benefit they might derive from submarine purchase is hard to say. so roughly 400,000 baht per soldier.

Incidentally 200 billion baht is roughly what rice exports alone earned for the Government in 2014

If one takes the inflated figure of 600 billion baht "cost" of the rice scheme, ignoring for the moment the fact that apart from the corruption element, that money simply circulated in the economy and mostly found its way back to the government) which "benefited" roughly 45 million rural Thais then that works out at about 133,000 per farmer and dependent. Quite apart from the fact that the rural population produces and exports while the armed forces consume and import.

I would therefore argue that the military budget wastes many multiples of any economic subsidy disbursed by the previous Government.

I do concede that in Education and other departments with large budgets there is huge waste through corruption in procurement. Some authorities put the figure as high as 20% of the budget. The Defence budget is particularly prone to this as there is no effective civilian oversight of spending and no transparency.

Oh please, forget your military budget distraction. I haven't been here for 50 years, but I have seen the RTA remove 2 parasitic criminal governments.

You have to be joking with your rice scam analysis. How did 45 million Thais benefit, when most were excluded or copped higher rents (who benefitted from that?)? Extrapolating that each rural Thai benefitted by B133,000 is simply ridiculous. Where all these suddenly wealthy Thais? Did the sudden wealth cause them to suicide? How many poor rural Thais suddenly went into the rice storage business, where the long term costs exceeded the value of the commodity? In reality, most of the payout was to larger scale farmers, who should have been excluded from a policy whose stated aim was to raise the income of poor Thais, to owners renting land, and to storage operators.

The simple truth is that the rice scam's sole objective was to offer a carrot to the donkeys, ensuring PTP would be elected. They knew the policy was a disaster from its earlier inception, but who cares, its taxpayer's money, not ours.

Every election policy put forward by Oz parties is subject to independent analysis, or considered a joke. Here the joke is at taxpayer's expense. Poor Yingluk, the joke has backfired.

The word "benefited" is in quotes. I am arguing that the maximum waste of the rice policy per Thai included in its target constituency was a lot less than the waste per constituent Thai involved in military spending. This assuming there was no benefit to any farmer or rural shopowner etc.

I am not arguing that the scheme was well thought out or administered although it would have been a lot less wasteful if unforseen external factors had not lowered the global rice price at a crucial moment. I am also reiterating that Governments are not like businesses and not everything they do has to make a direct profit. Recycling money in the economy through subsidies is legitimate. Guaranteeing income for poorer sections of society is also legitimate, it is what the minimum wage is all about.

And when the donkeys (as you so patronisingly call them) outnumber the monkeys then the donkeys will get their government in a democratic system so offering carrots rather than peanuts becomes the smart thing to do if you want to get elected. However if the monkeys get hold of guns and take power illegally then peanuts might temporarily be the flavour of the day.

[halloween]

The word "benefited" is in quotes. I am arguing that the maximum waste of the rice policy per Thai included in its target constituency was a lot less than the waste per constituent Thai involved in military spending. This assuming there was no benefit to any farmer or rural shopowner etc.

I am not arguing that the scheme was well thought out or administered although it would have been a lot less wasteful if unforseen external factors had not lowered the global rice price at a crucial moment. I am also reiterating that Governments are not like businesses and not everything they do has to make a direct profit. Recycling money in the economy through subsidies is legitimate. Guaranteeing income for poorer sections of society is also legitimate, it is what the minimum wage is all about.

And when the donkeys (as you so patronisingly call them) outnumber the monkeys then the donkeys will get their government in a democratic system so offering carrots rather than peanuts becomes the smart thing to do if you want to get elected. However if the monkeys get hold of guns and take power illegally then peanuts might temporarily be the flavour of the day.

Whether military budgets are a waste is a matter of perception. If you could show me any demonstrable benefit from the rice scam, an increase in poor farmer's income for example, you could argue it wasn't a complete waste, but that would be nigh impossible. Poor farmers, the donkeys chasing the carrot, didn't get much at all. Rich farmers spent more at the shop? Land renters bought a new Fortuner?

No governments don't have to make a profit, but their expenditure has to be benefit effective. You don't seem to want to discuss independent policy analysis, or its importance to an informed populace. We could aim for that, if educated is out of the question in the short to mid-term. A free and critical press would be another boon to democracy, but Thailand seems to like their defamation laws. Perhaps when the monkeys see their tax dollars used effectively and productively, they will put away their guns.

They would also like to see criminals and scum like Chalerm not being foisted on them via the party list system. But that's another story.

[tuanku]

The word "benefited" is in quotes. I am arguing that the maximum waste of the rice policy per Thai included in its target constituency was a lot less than the waste per constituent Thai involved in military spending. This assuming there was no benefit to any farmer or rural shopowner etc.

I am not arguing that the scheme was well thought out or administered although it would have been a lot less wasteful if unforseen external factors had not lowered the global rice price at a crucial moment. I am also reiterating that Governments are not like businesses and not everything they do has to make a direct profit. Recycling money in the economy through subsidies is legitimate. Guaranteeing income for poorer sections of society is also legitimate, it is what the minimum wage is all about.

And when the donkeys (as you so patronisingly call them) outnumber the monkeys then the donkeys will get their government in a democratic system so offering carrots rather than peanuts becomes the smart thing to do if you want to get elected. However if the monkeys get hold of guns and take power illegally then peanuts might temporarily be the flavour of the day.

Whether military budgets are a waste is a matter of perception. If you could show me any demonstrable benefit from the rice scam, an increase in poor farmer's income for example, you could argue it wasn't a complete waste, but that would be nigh impossible. Poor farmers, the donkeys chasing the carrot, didn't get much at all. Rich farmers spent more at the shop? Land renters bought a new Fortuner?

No governments don't have to make a profit, but their expenditure has to be benefit effective. You don't seem to want to discuss independent policy analysis, or its importance to an informed populace. We could aim for that, if educated is out of the question in the short to mid-term. A free and critical press would be another boon to democracy, but Thailand seems to like their defamation laws. Perhaps when the monkeys see their tax dollars used effectively and productively, they will put away their guns.

They would also like to see criminals and scum like Chalerm not being foisted on them via the party list system. But that's another story.

In the 2011–2 wet–season, “poor” farmers (from BAAC definition, those who pledge less than 200,000 baht worth of rice.) accounted for 80% of those participating in the scheme and received a total sum of 57.9 billion baht (48.9%) or an average of 85,000 baht per head. For the 2012 dry–season, poor farmers accounted for 56.4% and received a total of 32.6 billion baht (23%) or an average of 96,000 baht per head. “These are certainly better benefits than they had received prior to the scheme.”31

However one observation, although not solidly supported by data, is that the scheme has brought about changes by spreading the profits beyond the rice–producing and trading business. Traditionally, it was the rice exporters, traders and mill owners who were in control of Thailand’s rice trade. The scheme has brought Government agencies, the Government itself and those close to the Government into the business. The Government can now determine the price of rice in the domestic market as well as control exports. For better or worse, the scheme has completely transformed the face of Thailand’s rice trade. Farmers who have been exploited for decades now can sell their rice with profits for the first time in their lives.

http://www.hiso.or.th/hiso/picture/reportHealth/ThaiHealth2013/eng2013_18.pdf

There is no independent scrutiny of Government in Thailand, not from the media, from the electoral commission or from the courts. All organisations are set up to be partisan and are controlled by the Government in charge at the time. The proposed constitution will not improve the situation. There cannot be an informed populace with the current restrictions on freedom of information and speech, although they are not as ignorant as often supposed.

The monkeys live by their guns and they will not be put away. there is an excellent proposal for reform of the military but it will not happen. http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/5611

Nobody wants to see the country governed by criminals and scum, but they are not all on one side of the political divide. In fact there are a lot of unanswered questions about wealth (in fact unasked questions as to ask is not permitted) concerning the current administration.

[halloween]

Whether military budgets are a waste is a matter of perception. If you could show me any demonstrable benefit from the rice scam, an increase in poor farmer's income for example, you could argue it wasn't a complete waste, but that would be nigh impossible. Poor farmers, the donkeys chasing the carrot, didn't get much at all. Rich farmers spent more at the shop? Land renters bought a new Fortuner?

No governments don't have to make a profit, but their expenditure has to be benefit effective. You don't seem to want to discuss independent policy analysis, or its importance to an informed populace. We could aim for that, if educated is out of the question in the short to mid-term. A free and critical press would be another boon to democracy, but Thailand seems to like their defamation laws. Perhaps when the monkeys see their tax dollars used effectively and productively, they will put away their guns.

They would also like to see criminals and scum like Chalerm not being foisted on them via the party list system. But that's another story.

In the 2011–2 wet–season, “poor” farmers (from BAAC definition, those who pledge less than 200,000 baht worth of rice.) accounted for 80% of those participating in the scheme and received a total sum of 57.9 billion baht (48.9%) or an average of 85,000 baht per head. For the 2012 dry–season, poor farmers accounted for 56.4% and received a total of 32.6 billion baht (23%) or an average of 96,000 baht per head. “These are certainly better benefits than they had received prior to the scheme.”31

However one observation, although not solidly supported by data, is that the scheme has brought about changes by spreading the profits beyond the rice–producing and trading business. Traditionally, it was the rice exporters, traders and mill owners who were in control of Thailand’s rice trade. The scheme has brought Government agencies, the Government itself and those close to the Government into the business. The Government can now determine the price of rice in the domestic market as well as control exports. For better or worse, the scheme has completely transformed the face of Thailand’s rice trade. Farmers who have been exploited for decades now can sell their rice with profits for the first time in their lives.

http://www.hiso.or.th/hiso/picture/reportHealth/ThaiHealth2013/eng2013_18.pdf

There is no independent scrutiny of Government in Thailand, not from the media, from the electoral commission or from the courts. All organisations are set up to be partisan and are controlled by the Government in charge at the time. The proposed constitution will not improve the situation. There cannot be an informed populace with the current restrictions on freedom of information and speech, although they are not as ignorant as often supposed.

The monkeys live by their guns and they will not be put away. there is an excellent proposal for reform of the military but it will not happen. http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/5611

Nobody wants to see the country governed by criminals and scum, but they are not all on one side of the political divide. In fact there are a lot of unanswered questions about wealth (in fact unasked questions as to ask is not permitted) concerning the current administration.

so by your figures, a policy whose stated aim was to lift the income of the poorest rice farmers actually managed to direct less than 50% of expenditure to its target (making the HUGE assumption that B200,000 is 'poor"), falling to 23% as more smarties got into the act. It also doesn't account for the increased expenditure from increased rents and other costs. Would you call that a success? What was done to improve efficiency? Do you realise that as storage volume increased, costs would mount, so each season the scheme efficiency in its stated object decreases? What is that but waste?

And yes, those farmers received an increase in income, but only because their product was bought far above market price, making it unsaleable without accusations of dumping. But it bought votes, didn't it?

Who was talking about government scrutiny? The subject I raised was independent scrutiny of election policy, and there are plenty of recognised accounting firms willing to do it. In Oz, it is performed by the Ministries of Finance and Treasury. http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/final%20-%20Australia_0.pdf

What would they have thought of the rice scam? The same as every other economically informed organisation that looked at it - economic suicide.

Not all scum are on one side, but Chalerm is. Justify him as #2 party list and DPM. No other side of politics appoints criminals waiting trial to defer justice, and as a reward for crimes committed for the party.

[rixalex]

Actually there is a lot to criticise Yingluck for.By any reasonable criteria she was unqualified to be PM as is the case with the current PM, the difference being one was legitimate and one is not.She has a certain charisma and although not unintelligent would not normally be considered to have the necessary skill set.

The critics of Yingluck might be pardoned even endorsed if they showed some moral integrity or balance.If one saw some evidence they had equal distaste for the repression,arrogance and incompetence of the current Junta and its appointed stooges.But that we never see.

Change a few of the words and the exact same criticism can be leveled at your position.

The critics of the military might be pardoned even endorsed if they showed some moral integrity or balance.If one saw some evidence they had equal distaste for the repression,arrogance and incompetence of Thaksin and his various appointed stooges.But that we never see.

Sure, you throw in the occasional criticism in some sort of laughable attempt to appear objective, but it's all terribly half hearted and invariably quickly followed by some sort of justification or attempt to play down things as much as is humanly possible. Your above comments on Yingluck are a perfect example. How scathing. Yingluck must feel like she's been savaged by a toothless Cocker Spaniel puppy.

[jayboy]

Actually there is a lot to criticise Yingluck for.By any reasonable criteria she was unqualified to be PM as is the case with the current PM, the difference being one was legitimate and one is not.She has a certain charisma and although not unintelligent would not normally be considered to have the necessary skill set.

The critics of Yingluck might be pardoned even endorsed if they showed some moral integrity or balance.If one saw some evidence they had equal distaste for the repression,arrogance and incompetence of the current Junta and its appointed stooges.But that we never see.

Change a few of the words and the exact same criticism can be leveled at your position.

The critics of the military might be pardoned even endorsed if they showed some moral integrity or balance.If one saw some evidence they had equal distaste for the repression,arrogance and incompetence of Thaksin and his various appointed stooges.But that we never see.

Sure, you throw in the occasional criticism in some sort of laughable attempt to appear objective, but it's all terribly half hearted and invariably quickly followed by some sort of justification or attempt to play down things as much as is humanly possible. Your above comments on Yingluck are a perfect example. How scathing. Yingluck must feel like she's been savaged by a toothless Cocker Spaniel puppy.

.

If those of your persuasion even made an occasional criticism that would be progress.Actually you are also quite incorrect since I have been consistently very sceptical of Thaksin over many years and said so accordingly.

You also always seem to overlook who is now in power and who seized power by force.For all her faults Yingluck belongs in neither category.