New Brexit polls suggest shift in favour of leaving the EU

[dick dasterdly]

David Cameron.

So ask yourself: have I really heard anything – anything at all – to convince me that leaving would be the best thing for the economic security of my family?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/06/18/an-abject-self-imposed-humiliation-awaits-if-this-proud-importan/

It is what I have not heard that has convinced me that a Brexit is the correct decision for the UK. Not the white noise being rattled about the press.

I will say nothing of your opening paragraph. Suffice to say that I always thought it was impossible to get lower than a snake's belly, but you managed it effortlessly.

Pick up your P45, your done. Drag your economically illiterate best mate with you.

Ridiculous article/comments that are obviously nothing more than part of the campaign.

If its bad for Cameron's economic security, it could well be good for the lower paid and those on an average income....

[Johnyo]

Guardian: I like the EU, but I’m voting out - Patrick Collinson (editor)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages

Excellent article.

It might not matter anyway

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6

[SgtRock]

It might not matter anyway

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6

This has always been known. Nothing new here.

[brewsterbudgen]

Interesting to see the Mail on Sunday is for Remain.

[tomacht8]

Guardian: I like the EU, but I’m voting out - Patrick Collinson (editor)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages

Excellent article.

Excellent?

Would say this article is short-sighted and partial.

What's that for an argument!

With an exit the rents will fall?

When?

In 10 years, if the mortality rate is greater then the birth rate + immigration?

The income for unskilled labor will certainly not rise in real terms.

The simple executive labor is a renewable resource that is cheap and available in masses worldwide.

Where are the whole production sites? Global we are experiencing for decades the offsetting of income levels.

Productions with a high proportion of manual production, go where the factor of production unskilled labor is cheap.

The EU as an institution regulates the disadvantage of the high labor costs with trade agreements.

A small country with high labor costs, as a lone fighter it does have more difficulties in the global competition.

Higher wages?

We can mutually cut our hair and raise the price from 10 to 12 pounds.

Brilliant solution for higher incomes and cheaper rents.

[Jip99]

Guardian: I like the EU, but I’m voting out - Patrick Collinson (editor)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages

Excellent article.

It might not matter anyway

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6

In the unlikely event of an exit vote consider this:-

Cameron and his his senior sidekicks have staged a Project Fear campaign and tried every scaremongering tactic in the book. They will have failed. The bookmakers had remain at 4/1 ON before Cameron started his campaign.

He and his government would be finished.and I dare him, or his successors, to go against the will of the people.

I no longer give a flying fart about party politics and a centre/right conservative government (or even coalition) would get my support to take the country forward on a mandate of stabilizing then growing the economy, introducing tighter immigration controls, reviewing the whole benefits system and NHS funding whilst preserving the good things that the EU brought us such as employment rights and protection.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Jip99

[SgtRock]

It might not matter anyway

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6

In the unlikely event of an exit vote consider this:-

Cameron and his his senior sidekicks have staged a Project Fear campaign and tried every scaremongering tactic in the book. They will have failed. The bookmakers had remain at 4/1 ON before Cameron started his campaign.

He and his government would be finished.and I dare him, or his successors, to go against the will of the people.

I would have written the same sentiments, but I struggled to find an appropriate phrase under the present circumstances.

[nontabury]

Guardian: I like the EU, but Im voting out - Patrick Collinson (editor)

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages

Excellent article.

It might not matter anyway

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6

In the unlikely event of an exit vote consider this:-

Cameron and his his senior sidekicks have staged a Project Fear campaign and tried every scaremongering tactic in the book. They will have failed. The bookmakers had remain at 4/1 ON before Cameron started his campaign.

He and his government would be finished.and I dare him, or his successors, to go against the will of the people.

I no longer give a flying fart about party politics and a centre/right conservative government (or even coalition) would get my support to take the country forward on a mandate of stabilizing then growing the economy, introducing tighter immigration controls, reviewing the whole benefits system and NHS funding whilst preserving the good things that the EU brought us such as employment rights and protection.

While agreeing with many of the points you raise. Unfortunately these cannot be acquired by remaining in the EU. If the political class had not deceived the electorate, and had kept to the EEC, there would have been no necessity to hold this referendum and in doing so cause so much devision within the country.

[Richard W]

Can we vote them out?

can we vote out Brussels as it stands?

Who's 'we'? The people of Scotland can't vote the British government out. However, in the same way as the people of the UK can vote the British government out, the people of the EU can (and have!) vote the EU Commission out. To be precise, the popularly elected assembly, the European Parliament, can vote the European Commission out.

The big difference is that Europe is more like the UK's theoretical position, where the Queen appoints the prime minister who may then resign because he lacks the confidence of Parliament. The Commission is appointed by the member governments.

[Richard W]

It might not matter anyway

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6

This has always been known. Nothing new here.

But it's a reassurance for those who would vote Brexit for emotional reasons. However, I wouldn't recommend relying on it.

[SgtRock]

It might not matter anyway

http://uk.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6

This has always been known. Nothing new here.

But it's a reassurance for those who would vote Brexit for emotional reasons. However, I wouldn't recommend relying on it.

Could you expand on your logic Richard.

According to a lot of remainers the outers are voting on not much else rather than emotion.

However, I think if you read through this, and other threads, you will plainly see that emotion is one of the last reasons why people would vote out.

[Mosha]

Can we vote them out?

can we vote out Brussels as it stands?

Who's 'we'? The people of Scotland can't vote the British government out. However, in the same way as the people of the UK can vote the British government out, the people of the EU can (and have!) vote the EU Commission out. To be precise, the popularly elected assembly, the European Parliament, can vote the European Commission out.

The big difference is that Europe is more like the UK's theoretical position, where the Queen appoints the prime minister who may then resign because he lacks the confidence of Parliament. The Commission is appointed by the member governments.

The commissioners swear an oath to represent the best interests of the EU and not their home nation.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[allanos]

Can we vote them out?

can we vote out Brussels as it stands?

Who's 'we'? The people of Scotland can't vote the British government out. However, in the same way as the people of the UK can vote the British government out, the people of the EU can (and have!) vote the EU Commission out. To be precise, the popularly elected assembly, the European Parliament, can vote the European Commission out.

The big difference is that Europe is more like the UK's theoretical position, where the Queen appoints the prime minister who may then resign because he lacks the confidence of Parliament. The Commission is appointed by the member governments.

The commissioners swear an oath to represent the best interests of the EU and not their home nation.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

My opinion: It would take an awful lot to dislodge or get these people (the EC) out of their sinecures!

Has the Commission ever been dissolved since the EU was established? I would say that the Commission is largely in

the thrall of Germany and France, and provided that they do their bidding and don't rock the boat too much, they will play

the political game necessary to keep their huge salaries and perks. No one knows what goes on behind the closed doors!

[MJP]

Can we vote them out?

can we vote out Brussels as it stands?

Who's 'we'? The people of Scotland can't vote the British government out. However, in the same way as the people of the UK can vote the British government out, the people of the EU can (and have!) vote the EU Commission out. To be precise, the popularly elected assembly, the European Parliament, can vote the European Commission out.

The big difference is that Europe is more like the UK's theoretical position, where the Queen appoints the prime minister who may then resign because he lacks the confidence of Parliament. The Commission is appointed by the member governments.

The commissioners swear an oath to represent the best interests of the EU and not their home nation.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

My opinion: It would take an awful lot to dislodge or get these people (the EC) out of their sinecures!

Has the Commission ever been dissolved since the EU was established? I would say that the Commission is largely in

the thrall of Germany and France, and provided that they do their bidding and don't rock the boat too much, they will play

the political game necessary to keep their huge salaries and perks. No one knows what goes on behind the closed doors!

It's the closed doors combined with powerful lobbyists that bothers me most.

[Richard W]

9. The EU insists on the freedom of movement for its 500 million citizens and they can all come to the UK without restriction. So if there is freedom of movement into countries, why is there not freedom of movement out of the country in the form of deportation of foreign criminals?

There is freedom to deport foreign criminals subject to their deportation meeting UK law. When the UK is challenged in the European Court on deportations the challenge is on the basis of 'does the deportation comply with British Law.

Don't get me wrong, I wish British law would allow easier deportations.

In the UK jails there are significant numbers (over 10% of the total amount of those in jail who are foreign nationals- predominately Polish, Albanian etc.). So why is it the UK cannot deport them after they have served their sentence. It is because the European Court of Justice opposes deportation and the country the criminal originated from apposes their return as it means another welfare payment to be made and housing to be found

More cods. The reason why the UK does not deport these people is because UK law does not allow it. We need to change UK law.

There is a higher threshold for excluding EU criminals, just as there is a higher threshold for excluding Irish criminals. The former comes under free movement directive, whereas the latter is a voluntary (so far as I am aware) limitation that can be abandoned whenever Parliament and the Government decide. There is no mechanism at all for excluding Scottish and Welsh criminals from England - or vice versa.

Those from outside the EU may be deported or excluded purely on the basis of past behaviour. For EU nationals, the test is of present threat, but it is now agreed that past behaviour can be a good indication of future behaviour. The tests are messy.

Now, it may well be that the UK interpretation of the EU laws is too restrictive.

12. Also be aware that by remaining in the EU, every UK citizen is liable under the European Arrest Warrant to be arrested by a foreign police force in the UK and can be judicially surrendered and be extradited, possibly on the most flimsiest charges. This without evidence being presented against them in a British court of law, as our court has no power to prevent that extradition back to another EU country to stand trial and a possible prison sentence in that countries prisons. This without support of the government (Tony Blair signed the UK up to this) and the CPS. You will be on your own! And not supported by your government

Don't break the law in other people's countries

Guilty until proven innocent? The objection is that there does not have to be any evidence of guilt presented in the UK for someone to be arrested and removed from the UK. This scheme relies on the decency of foreign police forces.

[Richard W]

13. Under the EU current open door immigration policy it is now felt that due to the unsustainable numbers of migrants coming from EU and Non EU countries into UK eventually resentment and civil unrest is an alarming potential. If this open door policy is not stopped our service and benefits infrastructure will collapse under pressure

There is no EU policy that allows open door migration of Non EU citizens.

(The blue text that appears to be in MJP's post is from GuestHouse.)

There is currently one such policy, that allows family members of EEA nationals to be with their working (or well-heeled) EEA sponsor. Then, after five years, they obtain permanent residence. We don't see statistics on how many non-EU nationals enter under the EAA-route. I suspect the number is small compared to the number of straightforward entrants, but the mechanism seems to annoy the UK government. It currently provides a mechanism for asylum seekers and students to stay in the UK indefinitely, and was the reason for many sham marriages.

Cameron's deal (announced in February) should significantly cut down on the numbers using the route legitimately.

[Richard W]

Has the Commission ever been dissolved since the EU was established?

The Santer commission resigned to avoid being dismissed.

[JB300]

Vote Leave’s ‘Migrant Myth’ – why migration is good for the UK’s economy

http://ukinvestormagazine.co.uk/vote-leaves-migrant-myth-migration-good-uks-economy/

[Richard W]

Could you expand on your logic Richard.

According to a lot of remainers the outers are voting on not much else rather than emotion.

However, I think if you read through this, and other threads, you will plainly see that emotion is one of the last reasons why people would vote out.

If you believe that the ultimate destination of the EU is a federal system, a lot of it comes down to emotion rather than reason. Many of the objections are that Britain does not have control, to which the honest response is, 'Why should it?'. Voting 'leave' feels patriotic, and I think that is why part of me wants Brexit. However, other parts of me favour the federal system. However, the way the EU is run does not inspire confidence, and the idea of voting Brexit as a warning shot appeals. However, that is dangerous - Brexit means Brexit. Rejoining would probably mean losing the British opt-outs, and that is not good. Schengen as a system of border controls does not work, and the euro as a common currency does not work. One of the pressing issues in the EU is the dismantling of the euro, and there is not yet common acceptance that it needs to be done.

[Mosha]

Vote Leave’s ‘Migrant Myth’ – why migration is good for the UK’s economy

http://ukinvestormagazine.co.uk/vote-leaves-migrant-myth-migration-good-uks-economy/

Not good for the unqualified Brits trying to make a decent living, while the immigrants drive wages down.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[Jip99]

Vote Leave’s ‘Migrant Myth’ – why migration is good for the UK’s economy

http://ukinvestormagazine.co.uk/vote-leaves-migrant-myth-migration-good-uks-economy/

I accept I am biased but I find that defense hard to believe.

Also, whilst it does not affect me, a London constituent pointed out that (... getting out at the station..) was like 'living in a different country'. The character of many towns and suburbs have been permanently changed by immigration. Not everyone likes that.

[SgtRock]

Vote Leave’s ‘Migrant Myth’ – why migration is good for the UK’s economy

http://ukinvestormagazine.co.uk/vote-leaves-migrant-myth-migration-good-uks-economy/

JB300

This is from 2010 / 11

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2215070/Are-contributor-burden-nations-finances--Squeezed-middle-increasingly-dependent-state.html

I read a report recently, I will have to try and find it and post. That figure is now £28 - 30,000 per individual to be a net contributor in the UK.

I am not, and will not, try and lay the blame on the UK ills on the doorstep of immigrants. Given the figures from 2010 / 11 I would be extremely hard pushed to believe that immigrants are net contributors to the UK. Granted that there will be some that earn over these figures, most likely in the banking sector.

Edited June 19, 2016 by SgtRock

[RickBradford]

Not one of mine, but rather well put.

The EU intends to turn Britain into an address, not a place.

[allanos]

Could you expand on your logic Richard.

According to a lot of remainers the outers are voting on not much else rather than emotion.

However, I think if you read through this, and other threads, you will plainly see that emotion is one of the last reasons why people would vote out.

If you believe that the ultimate destination of the EU is a federal system, a lot of it comes down to emotion rather than reason. Many of the objections are that Britain does not have control, to which the honest response is, 'Why should it?'. Voting 'leave' feels patriotic, and I think that is why part of me wants Brexit. However, other parts of me favour the federal system. However, the way the EU is run does not inspire confidence, and the idea of voting Brexit as a warning shot appeals. However, that is dangerous - Brexit means Brexit. Rejoining would probably mean losing the British opt-outs, and that is not good. Schengen as a system of border controls does not work, and the euro as a common currency does not work. One of the pressing issues in the EU is the dismantling of the euro, and there is not yet common acceptance that it needs to be done.

Your response is pretty ambivalent, and which is probably the state that a sizeable number of voters feel at the moment. Mixed emotions, you might say.

The fact is that emotion does indeed play a large part in the decision-making process, but it is not the kind that Remainians like to sneer at: nostalgia, feelings of patriotism, etc. It very much concerns deep-seated suspicions regarding the direction that the European Commission want to take with with the EU and the essential lack of determination that the United Kingdom will have of its own future. The supposed right of veto is extremely limited, and it is a negative tool as opposed to a positive one.

I for one do not want to be a citizen of Federation No. 3 (as someone described it) in a Federated Europe of the future.

[brewsterbudgen]

The shift to Brexit seems to have evaporated. Neck and neck now.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/18/eu-referendum-britain-voting-campaign-jo-cox

[nontabury]

Can we vote them out?

can we vote out Brussels as it stands?

Who's 'we'? The people of Scotland can't vote the British government out. However, in the same way as the people of the UK can vote the British government out, the people of the EU can (and have!) vote the EU Commission out. To be precise, the popularly elected assembly, the European Parliament, can vote the European Commission out.

The big difference is that Europe is more like the UK's theoretical position, where the Queen appoints the prime minister who may then resign because he lacks the confidence of Parliament. The Commission is appointed by the member governments.

The Jeremy Paxman documentary on the question of who rules who.

Edited June 19, 2016 by nontabury

[SgtRock]

Could you expand on your logic Richard.

According to a lot of remainers the outers are voting on not much else rather than emotion.

However, I think if you read through this, and other threads, you will plainly see that emotion is one of the last reasons why people would vote out.

If you believe that the ultimate destination of the EU is a federal system, a lot of it comes down to emotion rather than reason. Many of the objections are that Britain does not have control, to which the honest response is, 'Why should it?'. Voting 'leave' feels patriotic, and I think that is why part of me wants Brexit. However, other parts of me favour the federal system. However, the way the EU is run does not inspire confidence, and the idea of voting Brexit as a warning shot appeals. However, that is dangerous - Brexit means Brexit. Rejoining would probably mean losing the British opt-outs, and that is not good. Schengen as a system of border controls does not work, and the euro as a common currency does not work. One of the pressing issues in the EU is the dismantling of the euro, and there is not yet common acceptance that it needs to be done.

Yes, I do believe that the ultimate destination of the EU. Emotion does not come into it, extensive reading does.

Although I am very much in favour of Brexit means Brexit, I have no confidence in that statement whatsoever. What I believe will happen is that further indepth, deep and meaningful conversations will be had to keep the UK in the EU at all costs.

Opt - outs. Funny that you should mention them. You are aware that all UK opt-outs currently enjoyed by the UK run out in 2020, except the euro opt - out.

I see the EU on a larger scale than German unification. The standards of living in West Germany were dragged down to drag up the living standards of the old East Germany. To a certain extent it is happening now. It will get even worse when the next 5 Countries join the EU. Those 5 Countries are currently averaging euro 4 - 500 a month salary, Guess what will happen when they eventually join ?

The EU answer to the EU's problems is................. More EU.

Madness personified.

Edited June 19, 2016 by SgtRock

[JB300]

Vote Leave’s ‘Migrant Myth’ – why migration is good for the UK’s economy

http://ukinvestormagazine.co.uk/vote-leaves-migrant-myth-migration-good-uks-economy/

Not good for the unqualified Brits trying to make a decent living, while the immigrants drive wages down.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

I agree, but at the macro level, (controlled) immigration is net-positive for the economy/country, uncontrolled (Blair) immigration is why we are where we are today.

But we are where we are, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[nontabury]

Vote Leaves Migrant Myth why migration is good for the UKs economy

http://ukinvestormagazine.co.uk/vote-leaves-migrant-myth-migration-good-uks-economy/

Just as equally important is it good for the British people,especially those on the lower rungs of the ladder. Somehow I don't think those people would agree. Others of course will think " I'm alright jack".

I just cannot understand those who think controlled immigration is not the correct way to go. Then we would be able to restrict immigration to those whose labour or skills,would be of benifit to the UK economy. Irrespective of their colour or nationality. Has as been said on numerous occasions,why are we allowing unskilled ( sometimes criminals ) people into the country,thus damping down wages of the lower paid,yet

making it nearly impossible for those from outside the EU whose skills are in short supply to actually gain entry into the UK. Add to this is the unfairness of creating obstacles for those British citizens who may wish to return to the UK with their none EU wives.

Edited June 19, 2016 by nontabury

[Jip99]

Vote Leave’s ‘Migrant Myth’ – why migration is good for the UK’s economy

http://ukinvestormagazine.co.uk/vote-leaves-migrant-myth-migration-good-uks-economy/

Not good for the unqualified Brits trying to make a decent living, while the immigrants drive wages down.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

I agree, but at the macro level, (controlled) immigration is net-positive for the economy/country, uncontrolled (Blair) immigration is why we are where we are today.

But we are where we are, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

As a Britexiteer I agree 100%. Controlled immigration is what we need and (should we leave) it is vital that this subject is handled correctly.

IMO start with a clean sheet of paper and establish what parameters are needed. For example holiday travel (for up to a month) to/from all other existing EU countries should be unchanged. The trickier part comes with longer stayers and mechanisms need to be put in place - perhaps not dissimilar to Thailand's visa requirements.