kannot Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 For years now the righteous people of this country has tried in vain to put an end to this temple disgusting and shameful acts of profiteering of the misery of those poor animals all to no avail, begs the question, under who's patronage and protection this temple is? who's the power that protecting this so called temple of doom and allow it to continue trading and flourish year after year with total impunity?..... outside the army base by me it says the Thai army is their to "protect religions" so theres your answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kannot Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Tigers die of natural causes. Part them out and sell them. very sensible,profitable also. This is an important point that seems to have been missed by posters who immediately fly off the handle with indignation and condemnation. It has to be established whether the tigers, young or old, were deliberately killed in order to make profit. When tigers or tiger cubs die naturally, it's only sensible to try to meet a market demand for such products. This could be considered as a form of Buddhist compassion. In other words, if there are millions of people who have great faith in the healing properties of tiger-related medicines, does it make sense to simply bury the bodies of animals which might otherwise help those who have that belief in the miraculous benefits of medicines derived from tiger bodies? The other question, which has yet to be answered, is what happened to the profits from such sales. If they are treated simply as donations to the temple, the Buddhist organisation and its charitable activities, then all's well. However, if the profits are traced to the bank accounts of individual monks or abbots who use such funds for personal expenses and luxuries, then that is clearly wrong. AGAIN the stupid word "faith" how about some FACTS on the tiger products, they dont do anything do they!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khunPer Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Sad when greed takes over... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 By the way - quit the Buddhism bashing. Buddhism in Thailand is so vast that there are bound to be some rotten apples. Get over it. To condemn the entire philosophy and all the millions of sincere people who are guided by Buddhism because of some high-profile corruption is not even Bayesian inference, it's just crass. Rather than suggest there are 'some rotton apples', I would suggest there are 'some good apples' that actually take it seriously. Like finding an honest BiB, rare, but it can happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yann55 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) Even though it took far too long for this to finally be exposed to the public, although most of us knew something was going on in one form or another at this despicable place, I will say congratulations to the Thai authorities for finally getting off your lazy asses and doing something about it.Ohhh please! The way it is looking the temple will be back in business in a year or 2 now that they have been given a zoo license. Only this time they will be operating legally to the government and no one will question what is happening in the back rooms there. Do you really think that this will end simply because a they are cracking down there right now? There is too much money to be made and lost and too many people who were getting some hefty envelopes that turned a blind eye to what was happening there before. These actions now are just a minor inconvenience and a delay in their profits. Until the government arrests everyone there including the Abbott that told the monk to deliver those skins and amulets and tears that temple down. Notice in the article they were moving those items to an undisclosed location and they don't mention any names who gave the offer to get them out of the temple. Even now the gigs up the monk's are trying to salvage their money makers for the future. A shame and disgrace for all Thai Buddhism but, then again, they are not the only ones perverting their religion.That may very well be the case but at least as of today there are 137 big beautiful cats that aren't going to be found stuffed in a suitcase in the back of some jackasses pickup truck. would love to know where these animals will be a year from now. would not be surprised if they get lost in the system. money is the true religion in this country. i looked up the rules of being buddist. the main rules are broken by most thais on a daily basis. it is a nice concept though. trying to not sound like i am bashing the thai people as i do enjoy living here. Wow, apparently you come from a country where money is not the true religion, and where the main rules of religion are not broken by most people on a daily basis ... How wonderful it must be there and how surprising you left it to come and live in this one ... You try to sound like you are not bashing Thai people but Sir, you are. I am so fed up of hearing Westerners living here and ranting from atop their high horse about the fact that money is the center of everything in Thailand. When we come to live here, our Western income is multiplied by 3 or 4 in terms of buying power, and why is that ? That is because the West controls the world financially. Why did Europeans colonize Asia, Africa and the Americas in the first place ? Because of greed, that's why. For money. This tiger temple is a despicable institution but they learn only from the best. When expats lash out at Thais for loving money, they are not only ridiculous, they are also unintelligent and sterile, because failing to see the bigger picture means the real problem can not even begin to be adressed. Edited June 3, 2016 by Yann55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigman Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Buddism in Los became a business. ... Catholicism became a business everywhere... What about paying taxes if this is the business? ?? Maybe finally some people wake up and start asking questions. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratcatcher Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Joust one other question. During all those years off operation and so many western volunteers why wasn't this exposed years ago? Surely someone somehow must have seen something. I know there were calls from conservation groups but a volunteer with direct access must have had some idea about the mistreatment going. There have been may many calls for this temple of death to be shut down, but Thailand has the laws of deformation and computer crimes that are used against any and all that interfere or make noise against the money machine. It matters not the truth of an allegation but rather you made me look bad, you made me loose face, and so you will be sued and dragged through court, bank accounts frozen, death threats, harassment, and if your a falang deported after everything you own has been seized. Talk about reform, have a look at the judicial system and how it is manipulated by the powerful at the price of justice. Unfortunately I would guess that following the money trail to fined the people that pocketed millions from this evil will just not happen, only a few low sacrificial heads will roll and no one of "influence" will be called to account. Yet another black mark on the country for the profit of a few. "Thailand has the laws of deformation " I did not know that. But I am not surprised either Yes, that's quite right. The "deformation laws" are there to deal with all the "bent" coppers and "crooked" politicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 it seems that m,any posters are getting obsessed with the role Buddhism played in this.......the real problem is not Buddhism, it is the trade - the trade attracts criminals and criminal activities - criminals will use whatever method that is convenient as a cover to set up and continue their illicit trade........it could be a church ,factory office block....whatever is convenient....they aren't religious....of any kind....they are just looking for an opportunity to exploit. What needs to be stopped is THE TRADE IN ENDANGERED SPECIES, animal exploitation and destruction of the environment - this is an enforcement issue in Thailand where plenty of other establishments (not monastical) are also engaged in similar activities.....so wittering on about Buddhism is a red herring that simply panders to peoples prejudices. Lets not let a personal obsession with Buddhism let others get away with the same crimes..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
off road pat Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Joust one other question. During all those years off operation and so many western volunteers why wasn't this exposed years ago? Surely someone somehow must have seen something. I know there were calls from conservation groups but a volunteer with direct access must have had some idea about the mistreatment going. It was exposed but nothing was don about it....the people that could have don something just closed there eyes......TIT... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 Probe ordered on Tiger Temple for alleged illegal wildlife tradeBANGKOK: -- The commissioner of the Royal Thai Police today ordered intensive investigation into alleged illegal wildlife trade at the Tiger Temple after many frozen and preserved carcasses of baby tigers and other protected wildlife species were found at the temple.Pol Gen Chakthip Chaijinda vowed to tackle all those responsible seriously if illegal wildlife trade gains ground.He said he has assigned his deputy Pol Gen Chalermkiat Srivorakan to inspect the temple and follow up development in the case closely.He said he instructed his deputy to find out if these carcasses have any connection with illegal wildlife trade, or what they were meant for.He said the police have information of wildlife traders in hand and their smuggling routes.He assured that nothing was complicated in the investigation of the case which now us the final attention of the public.He also ordered all police stations across the country to find out if there is any place where protected wild animals are raised.According to official information, tiger carcasses are normally smuggled to China via two routes from Myanmar border to Laos Vietnam and China, passing Thailand’s Northeast and Northern provinces.According to World Bank, illegal trade in tiger parts in China and other Asian markets is driving wild tigers to extinction.Tigers have been hunted to the point where only 4,000 of the big cats remain in the wild.The illegal market in China for tigers is so robust that groups in China are lobbying the authorities in favor of “tiger farming” – commercial breeding of tigers for slaughter and trade in tiger parts.However, the World Bank debunked the notion of any positive consevation benefits to tiger farming and has called for the phasing out of existing tiger farms in China.Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/content/165919 -- Thai PBS 2016-06-03 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalf12 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 This sort of thing really damages the image of Thailand on a major scale. If this is not just cleaned up but seen by the world to be properly taken care of, you can forget image as Thailand wont have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 (edited) Joust one other question. During all those years off operation and so many western volunteers why wasn't this exposed years ago? Surely someone somehow must have seen something. I know there were calls from conservation groups but a volunteer with direct access must have had some idea about the mistreatment going. There was a detailed report released (about 2008) by Care for the Wild - now merged with born Free. They actually spent a lot of time inside the temple - Sybil Foxcroft was involved in this but there was a huge falling out. Foxcroft herself worked at the Temple Another volunteer Bushchick wrote about her own disturbing encounters there and another chap Turner Barr a volunteer - wrote about "& reasons to think twice before visiting the Tiger Temple" the International Tiger Coalition wrote ann open Letter to the Thai director of DNP expressing deep concerns over the place. Google any of these - Care for the wild report is difficult to find, but I have copies. All these reports and more are not based just on hearsay - they are observations and accounts by either people who were there for an extended period or are experts on animal / tiger welfare and conservation. The evidence for much of the mistreatment and mismanagement has been there for all to see - the diet, the breeding program the inappropriate caging, the procrastination of proper enclosures and the separation of cubs from their mothers.....no properly trained vets...etc etc.... other organisations too have protested the way the place was run for up to 2 decades.......this is not a new thing it is just a testament to how badly the wheels of justice an be interfered with in Thailand and how little successive authorities have cared about te wildlife in their care. Please don't think the current admin is any different either.. Thailand is being monitored by international orgs like CITES who have the power to impose swinging sanctions on Thailand's trade that could cost trillions of dollars. Edited June 3, 2016 by cumgranosalum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadGeordie Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 This sort of thing really damages the image of Thailand on a major scale. Not so good for the tigers either! And I personally have no intetest in the image of Thailand. I see the reality every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook23 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Tigers die of natural causes. Part them out and sell them. very sensible,profitable also. Instead of being part of the solution you are part of the problem. All of the confiscated items from tiger amulets, tiger carcasses, skins, etc. should be itemized and photographed for the criminal trial of these three. Save a few samples for the trial, but every remaining confiscated item should be burned and destroyed so that not one single item can be resold. This is the only way to help stop perpetuating this heinous problem. Bravo to the National Parks, Wildlife and Plants Conservation Department, police and army personnel! Keep it up until every one of these crooks is behind bars. Hedghog is simply trolling. No-one can be that stupid Hedghog him here longtime too much, him think like thai people, him integrated... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook23 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Tigers die of natural causes. Part them out and sell them. very sensible,profitable also. Instead of being part of the solution you are part of the problem. All of the confiscated items from tiger amulets, tiger carcasses, skins, etc. should be itemized and photographed for the criminal trial of these three. Save a few samples for the trial, but every remaining confiscated item should be burned and destroyed so that not one single item can be resold. This is the only way to help stop perpetuating this heinous problem. Bravo to the National Parks, Wildlife and Plants Conservation Department, police and army personnel! Keep it up until every one of these crooks is behind bars. I'm sure you mean well, but that is naive. The root of the problem is the demand in China, not the supply. Chinese demand will exist regardless because of their deep-rooted superstitions, which is part of their culture and fairly ineradicable (unfortunately). If the supply reduces, then the price of animal parts will get higher, and the demand will only increase because of the scarcity cachet. Criminalising both the supply and the demand only pushes it underground - a lesson that was clear from alcohol prohibition in the 1920s. In any case, if tigers became completely extinct, then the trade would transfer onto another species. This is the truly heinous problem and it will not go away for a few generations. Blanket publicity campaigns in China could help vilify old-fashioned superstitions, but of course, there are high-ups in China too who have a vested interest in perpetuating this trade. I don't join the torch-and-pitchfork brigade in ranting about this temple. Everybody knows the place - among many others - has been involved in trafficking. Not to do so would be for them to effectively burn money, and if you know anything about human nature, you'll know that people are good at convincing themselves that corruption is less immoral than poverty. But the thing is, there's a real moral dilemma for those advocating closing down all places that breed of tigers: the demand from China will then be satisfied by wild tigers, and that would be a much bigger catastrophe. Think carefully about what you wish for. Why are the Chinese not breeding Tigers to satisfy this prurient need? As far as I know there are tiger farms in China for that very purpose... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunroaming Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 The only true god in Thailand is money. From the top to the bottom that is Thailand's great motivator. No room for morality and ethics in Thai "culture" I am afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook23 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mesterm Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 holy crap. i was keeping an open mind, but this is very hard to explain. You must have a very open mind. so open it fell out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook23 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 The only true god in Thailand is money. From the top to the bottom that is Thailand's great motivator. No room for morality and ethics in Thai "culture" I am afraid. Having money, being succesful is considered the result of karma, so according to thai "culture" the have nots and the poor deserve their faith/position in thai society. A rich/big person here is WAI'd at even when everybody knows the way he/she made money is morally incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asiantravel Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 The only true god in Thailand is money. From the top to the bottom that is Thailand's great motivator. No room for morality and ethics in Thai "culture" I am afraid. Having money, being succesful is considered the result of karma, so according to thai "culture" the have nots and the poor deserve their faith/position in thai society. A rich/big person here is WAI'd at even when everybody knows the way he/she made money is morally incorrect. the Buddhism in Thailand sucks because it's all about me me me " Physical comforts cannot subdue mental suffering, and if we look closely, we can see that those who have many possessions are not necessarily happy. In fact, being wealthy often brings even more anxiety. " Dalai Lama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLee Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Probe??? What probe. The pix speak volumes and you can't fool global peeps around the world.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook23 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 many thai don't know (about) the dalai lama as he's from the other branch... (theravada) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloudhopper Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 many thai don't know (about) the dalai lama as he's from the other branch... (theravada) Others don't know much at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook23 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 many thai don't know (about) the dalai lama as he's from the other branch... (theravada) Others don't know much at all... I mean Thai are theravada but added it at the wrong place (on smartphone, not easy to add something on tvf on WP)... No need to get smart on me. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Apparently one of the guys leaving the temple with the tiger parts was a border police officer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeincnx Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Tigers die of natural causes. Part them out and sell them. very sensible,profitable also. Instead of being part of the solution you are part of the problem. All of the confiscated items from tiger amulets, tiger carcasses, skins, etc. should be itemized and photographed for the criminal trial of these three. Save a few samples for the trial, but every remaining confiscated item should be burned and destroyed so that not one single item can be resold. This is the only way to help stop perpetuating this heinous problem. Bravo to the National Parks, Wildlife and Plants Conservation Department, police and army personnel! Keep it up until every one of these crooks is behind bars. I'm sure you mean well, but that is naive. The root of the problem is the demand in China, not the supply. Chinese demand will exist regardless because of their deep-rooted superstitions, which is part of their culture and fairly ineradicable (unfortunately). If the supply reduces, then the price of animal parts will get higher, and the demand will only increase because of the scarcity cachet. Criminalising both the supply and the demand only pushes it underground - a lesson that was clear from alcohol prohibition in the 1920s. In any case, if tigers became completely extinct, then the trade would transfer onto another species. This is the truly heinous problem and it will not go away for a few generations. Blanket publicity campaigns in China could help vilify old-fashioned superstitions, but of course, there are high-ups in China too who have a vested interest in perpetuating this trade. I don't join the torch-and-pitchfork brigade in ranting about this temple. Everybody knows the place - among many others - has been involved in trafficking. Not to do so would be for them to effectively burn money, and if you know anything about human nature, you'll know that people are good at convincing themselves that corruption is less immoral than poverty. But the thing is, there's a real moral dilemma for those advocating closing down all places that breed of tigers: the demand from China will then be satisfied by wild tigers, and that would be a much bigger catastrophe. Think carefully about what you wish for. Speaking of naive, imagine if one were to apply your supply and demand logic to the slave sex trade. If the supply was to be reduced, the demand price would simply go up - so best to keep it in house, right? I stand by my logic, based on proven scenarios in Africa today and not some free market gibberish, that every seized item should be destroyed and the remaining tigers relocated to non-poaching rescue sites. We do agree on one area - the temple should not be destroyed - that would accomplish nothing. FYI, China already breeds tigers and bears (bile siphoning) and plenty of other animals for their troglodyte culture; so, much for your bigger catastrophe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedghog Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Tigers die of natural causes. Part them out and sell them. very sensible,profitable also. Instead of being part of the solution you are part of the problem.All of the confiscated items from tiger amulets, tiger carcasses, skins, etc. should be itemized and photographed for the criminal trial of these three. Save a few samples for the trial, but every remaining confiscated item should be burned and destroyed so that not one single item can be resold. This is the only way to help stop perpetuating this heinous problem. Bravo to the National Parks, Wildlife and Plants Conservation Department, police and army personnel! Keep it up until every one of these crooks is behind bars. Hedghog is simply trolling. No-one can be that stupid Hedghog him here longtime too much, him think like thai people, him integrated... Maligned for having an opinion not mainstream.Very intelligent responses,but quite common on the forum,Unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mook23 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Tigers die of natural causes. Part them out and sell them. very sensible,profitable also. Instead of being part of the solution you are part of the problem.All of the confiscated items from tiger amulets, tiger carcasses, skins, etc. should be itemized and photographed for the criminal trial of these three. Save a few samples for the trial, but every remaining confiscated item should be burned and destroyed so that not one single item can be resold. This is the only way to help stop perpetuating this heinous problem. Bravo to the National Parks, Wildlife and Plants Conservation Department, police and army personnel! Keep it up until every one of these crooks is behind bars. Hedghog is simply trolling. No-one can be that stupid Hedghog him here longtime too much, him think like thai people, him integrated... Maligned for having an opinion not mainstream.Very intelligent responses,but quite common on the forum,Unfortunately. Cubs... Dozens...death. You don't have mainstream opinion indeed, doesn't mean u have intelligent opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 opinions are based on reasoning and critical thought - otherwise they aren't opinions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davemos Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 ok I'm a little pragmatic has this put the price of wild tigers up 10 fold ? We have croc farms elephant farms cow camel sheep etc The money could be used to set aside an environment that is untouched by humans ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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