Their visibility belies scorn, harm transgender Thais face

[Bluespunk]

If i run around dressed as Napoleon wanting my army back i would be classed as mentally disturbed but if as a man i dress as a female and say i feel as if i am a woman inside i need recognition from society that i am a woman because i feel like one,who has gone crazy here, accept him for what he is, mentally disturbed.

Again you try to link things that are not related.

They are related, if i feel like Napoleon and dress like him and demand to be taken seriously i see no difference to the situation of a man who feels he is a woman dresses like one and wants to be regarded as one, it is just as tragic as a man who feels he is Napoleon.

Not even close to the same thing.

[Bluespunk]

If i run around dressed as Napoleon wanting my army back i would be classed as mentally disturbed but if as a man i dress as a female and say i feel as if i am a woman inside i need recognition from society that i am a woman because i feel like one,who has gone crazy here, accept him for what he is, mentally disturbed.

Again you try to link things that are not related.

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Bluespunk

[soalbundy]

If i run around dressed as Napoleon wanting my army back i would be classed as mentally disturbed but if as a man i dress as a female and say i feel as if i am a woman inside i need recognition from society that i am a woman because i feel like one,who has gone crazy here, accept him for what he is, mentally disturbed.

Again you try to link things that are not related.

They are related, if i feel like Napoleon and dress like him and demand to be taken seriously i see no difference to the situation of a man who feels he is a woman dresses like one and wants to be regarded as one, it is just as tragic as a man who feels he is Napoleon.

Not even close to the same thing.

yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, let us agree to disagree, this will bring us nowhere.

[thaiduncankk]

If i run around dressed as Napoleon wanting my army back i would be classed as mentally disturbed but if as a man i dress as a female and say i feel as if i am a woman inside i need recognition from society that i am a woman because i feel like one,who has gone crazy here, accept him for what he is, mentally disturbed.

Again you try to link things that are not related.

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Taught ?

Maybe explained to them that they have 2 choices, accept or not accept.

But you want them brainwashed that it should be accepted by EVERYONE !

[Bluespunk]

Not even close to the same thing.

yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, let us agree to disagree, this will bring us nowhere.

They are not the same thing at all.

[Bluespunk]

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Taught ?

Maybe explained to them that they have 2 choices, accept or not accept.

But you want them brainwashed that it should be accepted by EVERYONE !

No. It is essential to know that it is important to accept that people are different and that it is wrong to persecute and discriminate against them for being so.

Some of the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by those who viewed people who differed from the norm, be it on the grounds of faith, gender identity, sexuality, politics, as being deviants/unnatural/something to be despised.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Bluespunk

[soalbundy]

Not even close to the same thing.

yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, let us agree to disagree, this will bring us nowhere.

They are not the same thing at all.

yes it is

[Bluespunk]

Not even close to the same thing.

yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, let us agree to disagree, this will bring us nowhere.

They are not the same thing at all.

yes it is

It is essential to know that it is important to accept that people are different and that it is wrong to persecute and discriminate against them for being so.

Some of the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by those who viewed people who differed from the norm, be it on the grounds of faith, gender identity, sexuality, politics, as being deviants/unnatural/something to be despised.

Now I realise I've said this before but it's really important that some read it twice.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Bluespunk

[soalbundy]

They shouldn't be persecuted Bluespunk but it should be left up to the individual as to whether one accepts this as 'normal' or not. If i am going to sit round a camp fire with a bunch of people i would like them to be real men and women and not pretend men and women

[dick dasterdly]

I can only assume that some believe obvious transgenders etc. will result in themselves or their child becoming the same way??

It makes no sense to me, but I can't think of any other reason for people to be upset when the unfortunate few make their preferences obvious?

Edited June 7, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[thaiduncankk]

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Taught ?

Maybe explained to them that they have 2 choices, accept or not accept.

But you want them brainwashed that it should be accepted by EVERYONE !

No. It is essential to know that it is important to accept that people are different and that it is wrong to persecute and discriminate against them for being so.

Some of the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by those who viewed people who differed from the norm, be it on the grounds of faith, gender identity, sexuality, politics, as being deviants/unnatural/something to be despised.

I accept that these people ARE different from the norm. However, it is my choice not to accept their belief that they should be accepted in a normal society.

[soalbundy]

I can only assume that some believe obvious transgenders etc. will result in themselves or their child becoming the same way??

It makes no sense to me, but I can't think of any other reason for people to be upset when the unfortunate few make their preferences obvious?

not upset, uncomfortable if an interaction is necessary.

[dick dasterdly]

They shouldn't be persecuted Bluespunk but it should be left up to the individual as to whether one accepts this as 'normal' or not. If i am going to sit round a camp fire with a bunch of people i would like them to be real men and women and not pretend men and women

And that's where we differ.

Personally, I couldn't give a toss about their gender ideas as long as they are caring, compassionate people.

[Bluespunk]

They shouldn't be persecuted Bluespunk but it should be left up to the individual as to whether one accepts this as 'normal' or not. If i am going to sit round a camp fire with a bunch of people i would like them to be real men and women and not pretend men and women

The OP is about someone who faced abuse in school because of who they were.

If that sort of behaviour and the prejudices that lie behind it are not challeneged then it leads to entrenched attitudes that are dicriminatory and worse.

We all should be aware that it is up to the individual to decide upon their gender identity and we are not in any position to criticise or condem that position.

Even more so we should not be comparing it to mental illness and those who would sexually abuse others for their own pleasure.

[Bluespunk]

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Taught ?

Maybe explained to them that they have 2 choices, accept or not accept.

But you want them brainwashed that it should be accepted by EVERYONE !

No. It is essential to know that it is important to accept that people are different and that it is wrong to persecute and discriminate against them for being so.

Some of the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by those who viewed people who differed from the norm, be it on the grounds of faith, gender identity, sexuality, politics, as being deviants/unnatural/something to be despised.

I accept that these people ARE different from the norm. However, it is my choice not to accept their belief that they should be accepted in a normal society.

Again that is the sort of view that leads to the acceptance of the actions of those who go further and actively persecute those who do not fit a restricted norm.

[thaiduncankk]

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Taught ?

Maybe explained to them that they have 2 choices, accept or not accept.

But you want them brainwashed that it should be accepted by EVERYONE !

No. It is essential to know that it is important to accept that people are different and that it is wrong to persecute and discriminate against them for being so.

Some of the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by those who viewed people who differed from the norm, be it on the grounds of faith, gender identity, sexuality, politics, as being deviants/unnatural/something to be despised.

I accept that these people ARE different from the norm. However, it is my choice not to accept their belief that they should be accepted in a normal society.

Again that is the sort of view that leads to the acceptance of the actions of those who go further and actively persecute those who do not fit a restricted norm.

If they acted normal, there would be no persecution. I could argue it is self inflicted.

[soalbundy]

They shouldn't be persecuted Bluespunk but it should be left up to the individual as to whether one accepts this as 'normal' or not. If i am going to sit round a camp fire with a bunch of people i would like them to be real men and women and not pretend men and women

And that's where we differ.

Personally, I couldn't give a toss about their gender ideas as long as they are caring, compassionate people.

Yes, i can understand that, i just don't want the PC mob trying to push what they think i must accept down my throat. I never was one to follow a crowd opinion, i remain an unrepentant complicated individualist who feels i have the right to my own opinions,this is made easier because i don't care what others think, i work on the basis,you leave me alone and i will leave you alone. In Nazi Germany or Communist Russia i would undoubtedly have been put against the wall and shot, not so the PC crowd they are malleable.

[dick dasterdly]

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Taught ?

Maybe explained to them that they have 2 choices, accept or not accept.

But you want them brainwashed that it should be accepted by EVERYONE !

No. It is essential to know that it is important to accept that people are different and that it is wrong to persecute and discriminate against them for being so.

Some of the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by those who viewed people who differed from the norm, be it on the grounds of faith, gender identity, sexuality, politics, as being deviants/unnatural/something to be despised.

I accept that these people ARE different from the norm. However, it is my choice not to accept their belief that they should be accepted in a normal society.

Again that is the sort of view that leads to the acceptance of the actions of those who go further and actively persecute those who do not fit a restricted norm.

If they acted normal, there would be no persecution. I could argue it is self inflicted.

Good grief! Everyone has to be your/current societes idea of 'normal' or they deserve persecution??

You have no concept of compassion for those who are different - I don't understand it, but then again I don't understand anyone with no compassion.

[dick dasterdly]

They shouldn't be persecuted Bluespunk but it should be left up to the individual as to whether one accepts this as 'normal' or not. If i am going to sit round a camp fire with a bunch of people i would like them to be real men and women and not pretend men and women

And that's where we differ.

Personally, I couldn't give a toss about their gender ideas as long as they are caring, compassionate people.

Yes, i can understand that, i just don't want the PC mob trying to push what they think i must accept down my throat. I never was one to follow a crowd opinion, i remain an unrepentant complicated individualist who feels i have the right to my own opinions,this is made easier because i don't care what others think, i work on the basis,you leave me alone and i will leave you alone. In Nazi Germany or Communist Russia i would undoubtedly have been put against the wall and shot, not so the PC crowd they are malleable.

And yet you follow the 'mob' in thinking they should be ostracised etc. .

You obviously have no idea about making a stand against general opinion, but I still don't understand why you care about isolating the 'deviants' from your social sphere?

[soalbundy]

They shouldn't be persecuted Bluespunk but it should be left up to the individual as to whether one accepts this as 'normal' or not. If i am going to sit round a camp fire with a bunch of people i would like them to be real men and women and not pretend men and women

The OP is about someone who faced abuse in school because of who they were.

If that sort of behaviour and the prejudices that lie behind it are not challeneged then it leads to entrenched attitudes that are dicriminatory and worse.

We all should be aware that it is up to the individual to decide upon their gender identity and we are not in any position to criticise or condem that position.

Even more so we should not be comparing it to mental illness and those who would sexually abuse others for their own pleasure.

Trying to decide on your gender is like trying to decide on your nationality,you only have to look in your passport to know. Not accepting facts is a sign of mental instability. A gay man accepts that he is a man but feels attracted to other men there is medical proof that his brain has been hard wired in this way, he is not mentally unstable. Gender confusion is in my opinion a sign of mental instability no matter how sincere the feelings are. Having said that fault lies with both the teacher and the transgender person in the school, the teacher certainly shouldn't have allowed bullying in this manner although this isn't always possible,the transgender person needn't have worn his situation so openly on his sleeve, there is no need for make up in the school either for real girls or pretend girls.

[thaiduncankk]

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Taught ?

Maybe explained to them that they have 2 choices, accept or not accept.

But you want them brainwashed that it should be accepted by EVERYONE !

No. It is essential to know that it is important to accept that people are different and that it is wrong to persecute and discriminate against them for being so.

Some of the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by those who viewed people who differed from the norm, be it on the grounds of faith, gender identity, sexuality, politics, as being deviants/unnatural/something to be despised.

I accept that these people ARE different from the norm. However, it is my choice not to accept their belief that they should be accepted in a normal society.

Again that is the sort of view that leads to the acceptance of the actions of those who go further and actively persecute those who do not fit a restricted norm.

If they acted normal, there would be no persecution. I could argue it is self inflicted.

Good grief! Everyone has to be your/current societes idea of 'normal' or they deserve persecution??

You have no concept of compassion for those who are different - I don't understand it, but then again I don't understand anyone with no compassion.

I was brought up to believe what was right and what was wrong, the same applies to what is normal and what is not normal. I am not changing my beliefs for those of the PC brigade.

As long as I have no interactions with them, I have no problems.

But I fail to see why I have to show compassion ?

I reserve that for people who had no choice in their destiny, like people with obvious physical handicaps.

[Bluespunk]

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Taught ?

Maybe explained to them that they have 2 choices, accept or not accept.

But you want them brainwashed that it should be accepted by EVERYONE !

No. It is essential to know that it is important to accept that people are different and that it is wrong to persecute and discriminate against them for being so.

Some of the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by those who viewed people who differed from the norm, be it on the grounds of faith, gender identity, sexuality, politics, as being deviants/unnatural/something to be despised.

I accept that these people ARE different from the norm. However, it is my choice not to accept their belief that they should be accepted in a normal society.

Again that is the sort of view that leads to the acceptance of the actions of those who go further and actively persecute those who do not fit a restricted norm.

If they acted normal, there would be no persecution. I could argue it is self inflicted.

You could but you would be wrong.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Bluespunk

[Bluespunk]

They shouldn't be persecuted Bluespunk but it should be left up to the individual as to whether one accepts this as 'normal' or not. If i am going to sit round a camp fire with a bunch of people i would like them to be real men and women and not pretend men and women

The OP is about someone who faced abuse in school because of who they were.

If that sort of behaviour and the prejudices that lie behind it are not challeneged then it leads to entrenched attitudes that are dicriminatory and worse.

We all should be aware that it is up to the individual to decide upon their gender identity and we are not in any position to criticise or condem that position.

Even more so we should not be comparing it to mental illness and those who would sexually abuse others for their own pleasure.

Trying to decide on your gender is like trying to decide on your nationality,you only have to look in your passport to know. Not accepting facts is a sign of mental instability. A gay man accepts that he is a man but feels attracted to other men there is medical proof that his brain has been hard wired in this way, he is not mentally unstable. Gender confusion is in my opinion a sign of mental instability no matter how sincere the feelings are. Having said that fault lies with both the teacher and the transgender person in the school, the teacher certainly shouldn't have allowed bullying in this manner although this isn't always possible,the transgender person needn't have worn his situation so openly on his sleeve, there is no need for make up in the school either for real girls or pretend girls.

Wow, you really believe that?

Blaming the victim culture is still with us it seems.

[soalbundy]

They shouldn't be persecuted Bluespunk but it should be left up to the individual as to whether one accepts this as 'normal' or not. If i am going to sit round a camp fire with a bunch of people i would like them to be real men and women and not pretend men and women

And that's where we differ.

Personally, I couldn't give a toss about their gender ideas as long as they are caring, compassionate people.

Yes, i can understand that, i just don't want the PC mob trying to push what they think i must accept down my throat. I never was one to follow a crowd opinion, i remain an unrepentant complicated individualist who feels i have the right to my own opinions,this is made easier because i don't care what others think, i work on the basis,you leave me alone and i will leave you alone. In Nazi Germany or Communist Russia i would undoubtedly have been put against the wall and shot, not so the PC crowd they are malleable.

And yet you follow the 'mob' in thinking they should be ostracised etc. .

You obviously have no idea about making a stand against general opinion, but I still don't understand why you care about isolating the 'deviants' from your social sphere?

and yet i didn't say they should be ostracized, i wrote that it is MY choice not to personally mix socially with these people, MY choice, not that it SHOULD be the choice of society in general, others should do as they wish, i am not responsible for your actions, i am not in a position to reprove or approve of YOUR interactions, i am responsible for myself only. I don't actively ban people from my sphere i feel uncomfortable with transgender people so i choose not to meet them,there aren't that many about so i don't have to pick and choose where i go, i wouldn't for instance go to bar where i know a lot of tranny's hang out.

[dick dasterdly]

I assume you are a bloke ?

If at a young age, you told your parents you wanted to be a girl, and would dress and act accordingly, what do you think their reaction would have been ? Tears of joy ? Or tears of 'we've brought a freak into the world' ?

Which is why intolerance needs to be countered and the importance of acceptance needs to be taught in school.

Taught ?

Maybe explained to them that they have 2 choices, accept or not accept.

But you want them brainwashed that it should be accepted by EVERYONE !

No. It is essential to know that it is important to accept that people are different and that it is wrong to persecute and discriminate against them for being so.

Some of the greatest crimes against humanity have been committed by those who viewed people who differed from the norm, be it on the grounds of faith, gender identity, sexuality, politics, as being deviants/unnatural/something to be despised.

I accept that these people ARE different from the norm. However, it is my choice not to accept their belief that they should be accepted in a normal society.

Again that is the sort of view that leads to the acceptance of the actions of those who go further and actively persecute those who do not fit a restricted norm.

If they acted normal, there would be no persecution. I could argue it is self inflicted.

Good grief! Everyone has to be your/current societes idea of 'normal' or they deserve persecution??

You have no concept of compassion for those who are different - I don't understand it, but then again I don't understand anyone with no compassion.

I was brought up to believe what was right and what was wrong, the same applies to what is normal and what is not normal. I am not changing my beliefs for those of the PC brigade.

As long as I have no interactions with them, I have no problems.

But I fail to see why I have to show compassion ?

I reserve that for people who had no choice in their destiny, like people with obvious physical handicaps.

I also had a religious background that taught me right was right, and wrong was wrong.

Fortunately, I learnt to think for myself - unlike so many others who are stuck in the rut.

I suspect that we are also different in that I think those who aren't hetrosexual are born that way?

Why do you think they differ from the 'norm'? Because they choose to be this way, despite the obvious hatred/scorn from so many?

[dick dasterdly]

Soulbundy -

"and yet i didn't say they should be ostracized, i wrote that it is MY choice not to personally mix socially with these people"

And I asked, "why?"

Edit - I genuinely don't 'get it'. The first time I met gays (obviously I must have met gays in the UK, but they weren't about to admit it - and taking everyone at face value - I didn't realise) was here in Thailand, and they were genuinely nice guys.

As I say, I just 'don't get' the need for immediate dislike.

Edited June 7, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[soalbundy]

They shouldn't be persecuted Bluespunk but it should be left up to the individual as to whether one accepts this as 'normal' or not. If i am going to sit round a camp fire with a bunch of people i would like them to be real men and women and not pretend men and women

The OP is about someone who faced abuse in school because of who they were.

If that sort of behaviour and the prejudices that lie behind it are not challeneged then it leads to entrenched attitudes that are dicriminatory and worse.

We all should be aware that it is up to the individual to decide upon their gender identity and we are not in any position to criticise or condem that position.

Even more so we should not be comparing it to mental illness and those who would sexually abuse others for their own pleasure.

Trying to decide on your gender is like trying to decide on your nationality,you only have to look in your passport to know. Not accepting facts is a sign of mental instability. A gay man accepts that he is a man but feels attracted to other men there is medical proof that his brain has been hard wired in this way, he is not mentally unstable. Gender confusion is in my opinion a sign of mental instability no matter how sincere the feelings are. Having said that fault lies with both the teacher and the transgender person in the school, the teacher certainly shouldn't have allowed bullying in this manner although this isn't always possible,the transgender person needn't have worn his situation so openly on his sleeve, there is no need for make up in the school either for real girls or pretend girls.

Wow, you really believe that?

Blaming the victim culture is still with us it seems.

As always you cherry pick, in the wild animals have camouflage for a reason. Although the teacher gave an inappropriate answer to his complaint consider the teachers dilemma, she is there to teach not to act as a doctor for mental health issues,she could have done better at trying to solve the problem but would be doomed to failure in the long run, humans are pack animals who react to the scent of blood, which is why we have camouflage.

[soalbundy]

Soulbundy -

"and yet i didn't say they should be ostracized, i wrote that it is MY choice not to personally mix socially with these people"

And I asked, "why?"

Edit - I genuinely don't 'get it'. The first time I met gays (obviously I must have met gays in the UK, but they weren't about to admit it - and taking everyone at face value - I didn't realise) was here in Thailand, and they were genuinely nice guys.

As I say, I just 'don't get' the need for immediate dislike.

I don't know what the 'Edit' is supposed to mean, that hasn't come from my keyboard. To your question read my post again until you get to the bit which says ''i feel uncomfortable with transgender people'', like, i don't like heights so i don't stand on top of cliffs, there is no why that's just the way it is, i avoid situations that make me feel uncomfortable, talking to my mother-in-law for instance.

[dick dasterdly]

Soulbundy - so you really believe that you or your children may be corrupted by association with transgenders/gays etc.?

That explains a lot.

Fortunately, I have no fear of being 'turned' by association with those who have a different sexual orientation .

[Bluespunk]

Trying to decide on your gender is like trying to decide on your nationality,you only have to look in your passport to know. Not accepting facts is a sign of mental instability. A gay man accepts that he is a man but feels attracted to other men there is medical proof that his brain has been hard wired in this way, he is not mentally unstable. Gender confusion is in my opinion a sign of mental instability no matter how sincere the feelings are. Having said that fault lies with both the teacher and the transgender person in the school, the teacher certainly shouldn't have allowed bullying in this manner although this isn't always possible,the transgender person needn't have worn his situation so openly on his sleeve, there is no need for make up in the school either for real girls or pretend girls.

Wow, you really believe that?

Blaming the victim culture is still with us it seems.

As always you cherry pick, in the wild animals have camouflage for a reason. Although the teacher gave an inappropriate answer to his complaint consider the teachers dilemma, she is there to teach not to act as a doctor for mental health issues,she could have done better at trying to solve the problem but would be doomed to failure in the long run, humans are pack animals who react to the scent of blood, which is why we have camouflage.

Again with the attempt to link gender identity to mental illness. They are not the same thing.