Urgent Help Needed: Refused Fiance Visa

[kmp2290]

I am Kim a transgender woman from the Philippines and I am engaged with a British man. We started our relationship thru an online dating last 17th of October 2015. On the 17th January 2016 (3 months after) we met in person and we lived together for almost 2 weeks, but couldn't any longer as my fiance has to comeback to UK for his job. 17th of April (6 months after) we applied for a Fiance Visa in the hope of being together in UK as it is more convenient for me to come over, than him quitting his job and moving to the Philippines. Which by the way same-sex marriage or any form of union is not recognised nor legal. 29th of April 2016, my fiance visited me again and this time he met my parents as part of our arrangements, and evidences like flight and hotel bookings were submitted for my application (for them to know that he's really coming back). I got my visa refused on the 6th of June, 2016. This is the exact details of the refusal letter.

"It is not accepted that your relationship with your partner is genuine and subsisting. Assessing ECOs are entitled to be satisfied that you are, and have been, in a genuine relationship with your sponsor before issuing you with a UK visa. You have indicated on the visa application that you personally met your sponsor on 17th January 2016 having first met online in October 2015. You submitted this application on 17th April, just three months after meeting your sponsor. As evidence of your relationship you have submitted some photos taken during your time together and printouts of some facebook conversations. It is reasonable to expect that in a genuine subsisting, supportive and affectionate relationships, there would be evidence of the development of the relationship, signs of companionship, emotional support, affection and an abiding -interest in each other's welfare and well-being over a period leading to engagement and marriage. This has not been adequately demonstrated with the evidence submitted and the haste in which you wish to be married raises concerns as to the genuineness and sustainability of the relationship and your motives. I am aware that the onus is upon you to satisfy me that you have met the Immigration Rules and it is your intentions and not those of your sponsor that are paramount in the decision making process. I have studied your application in detail and with due care, and from the evidence and statements you have made to me, I am not satisfied that there is a continuing and meaningful 'relationship with your sponsor and that any marriage will not be a marriage of convenience. I therefore am not satisfied-your relationship with your sponsor is genuine and ·subsisting or that you intend to live together permanently in the UK. I therefore refuse your application under paragraph EC-P.1.1 (d) of Appendix FM of the Immigration Rules. (E-ECP.2.6 & 2.10)

You state that you intend to get married on the 9th September 2016, yet you have provided no
evidence of this. I am not satisfied that you are seeking entry to the UK to enable your
marriage/civil partnership· to take place. I therefore refuse your· application under paragraph ·
EC-P:1.1{d) of Appendix FM bf the immigration Rules. (E-ECP.2."

Immigration rules we haven't met:

E-ECP.2.6. The relationship between the applicant and their partner must be genuine and subsisting.
E-ECP.2.8. If the applicant is a fiancé(e) or proposed civil partner, they must be seeking entry to the UK to enable their marriage or civil partnership to take place.
E-ECP.2.10. The applicant and partner must intend to live together permanently in the UK.

His decision, seemed to us that the ECO did not thoroughly checked our documents. We have submitted the marriage booking/acknowledgement issued by the city council with the date, time and location of our marriage, our letters discussing our relationship, intentions and plans, online chat logs (FB,Skype, Viber, Hangouts & Gmail), our photos together and evidences of our holidays together (flights, hotel bookings, receipts), evidences of his expenses for me while I am in the Philippines.

We are given the right to appeal against the decision to the tribunal, however, my fiance and I are both confused if this allows us for a human rights claim (Article 8- The Right to Respect Private and Family Life), knowing he is a British citizen and settled in UK whilst I am a Filipino and still living in Philippines.

[moe666]

Your relationship is to short lived you need to give it a couple of years

[geriatrickid]

I do not believe that this is an issue that should be dealt with in a forum like TVF. If you are sincere in what you say, please retain the services of a reputable and competent immigration lawyer. No one, and I mean no one who is unqualified in the the intricacies and complexities of immigration law is a reliable information source.

[impulse]

First post from a Filipino on a Thai website?

A transgender Filipino, no less.

In the immortal words of Sherlock Holmes: I sense the game is afoot. (I'm paraphrasing, of course)

Edited June 12, 2016 by impulse

[Tony M]

I do not believe that this is an issue that should be dealt with in a forum like TVF. If you are sincere in what you say, please retain the services of a reputable and competent immigration lawyer. No one, and I mean no one who is unqualified in the the intricacies and complexities of immigration law is a reliable information source.

Leaving aside the fact that the OP is a Filipino posting in a Thai visa forum (and it is possible to understand why he would seek advice wherever he can), one of the forum sponsors here is qualified to respond. Thai Visa Express is OISC registered in the UK to give immigration advice, and is, therefore, a reliable information source.

In addition, I cannot agree that this is an issue that should not be dealt with in a visa forum, as there may well be others in the same position as this OP. It should be possible to discuss any visa issue in a visa forum ?

Edited June 12, 2016 by Tony M

[kmp2290]

I do not believe that this is an issue that should be dealt with in a forum like TVF. If you are sincere in what you say, please retain the services of a reputable and competent immigration lawyer. No one, and I mean no one who is unqualified in the the intricacies and complexities of immigration law is a reliable information source.

Leaving aside the fact that the OP is a Filipino posting in a Thai visa forum (and it is possible to understand why he would seek advice wherever he can), one of the forum sponsors here is qualified to respond. Thai Visa Express is OISC registered in the UK to give immigration advice, and is, therefore, a reliable information source.

In addition, I cannot agree that this is an issue that should not be dealt with in a visa forum, as there may well be others in the same position as this OP. It should be possible to discuss any visa issue in a visa forum ?

Thanks Tony,

To Impulse, I understand that this is a Thai forum site, but this isn't a question of my nationality I suppose. I am here because I am seeking opinions from those people who might have been into the same situation.

To geriatrickid, yes I understand a lawyer can help us with this, but please read the title of the forum where I posted my concerns. And if there's nothing you can help then we don't need you to say anything perhaps.

[shunter]

The comments from both moe666 and Geriatrickid are very valid points.

The time span of your relationship is seen as no more than a crush period suffered by teenagers in the eyes of the authorities, no real evidence of a stable long term relationship in progress or even developing and as a result warning bells ring as those who deal with these situations have seen it all before. Papers detailing your possible actions are not hard verifiable facts.

I assure you that in my many years of experience within the U.K. legal system your case is far too complex for those not qualified in the delights and the intricacies of the U.K. immigration process and its laws to either advise you or to represent you.

​The decision made by the ECO officer is correct, You are considered to be a risk entrant to the U.K. therefore your application is and has been rightly refused.

Another moot point is as you claim to be a Filipino and resident in the Philippines. Why then might we ask are you posting in a Thailand based forum concerning that which is in essence a Filipino and a U.K. citizens issue? It does lead to a supposition that the facts and their truth is not all as you as well as your prospective marriage partner are not as you both present them.

[impulse]

To geriatrickid, yes I understand a lawyer can help us with this, but please read the title of the forum where I posted my concerns. And if there's nothing you can help then we don't need you to say anything perhaps.

So you're asking for advice about filing a human rights claim, and rejecting the validity of his advice to seek legal counsel?

[wooloomooloo]

Guys, give the girl a break. This sub-forum is as good as any place to start investigating the chances of whether an appeal is in order. Notwithstanding, it's the moderators job to decide who, and who can't, post here. There also might be a poster along shortly who has been in an identical situation and can also offer support to the OP.

This has not been adequately demonstrated with the evidence submitted and the haste in which you wish to be married raises concerns as to the genuineness and sustainability of the relationship and your motives.

As I am sure you will understand, the bottom line is the above quote of the refusal with emphasis on the word 'haste', kmp.

I met my wife online in August 2009 and first met her in person in December 2009 [two week holiday], then again in March 2010 [another two week holiday] and on our third meeting in August 2010 we were married [three week holiday]. One week after our wedding my wife submitted her settlement visa application in Bangkok.

My wife's application was absolutely solid but I was always a little wary of the short timescale of our relationship. Anyway, long story short, the application was approved first time.

I would imagine, though, that the timescale of our relationship was pretty much on the absolute threshold of 'haste' and 'barely just there', if you get my drift.

From my limited knowledge, I would imagine that you have more chance of meeting Elvis in your local supermarket than successfully appealing on a human rights ticket.

Though, obviously, you do have a right of appeal, and I am sure that Thai Visa Express [Tony M and colleagues] are more than qualified to assist you going forward in this regard.

Good luck for the future to the both of you.

Edited June 12, 2016 by wooloomooloo

[impulse]

Guys, give the girl a break. This sub-forum is as good as any place to start investigating the chances of whether an appeal is in order. Notwithstanding, it's the moderators job to decide who, and who can't, post here.

Quote

This has not been adequately demonstrated with the evidence submitted and the haste in which you wish to be married raises concerns as to the genuineness and sustainability of the relationship and your motives.

Give the girl a break? They lived together a whopping 2 weeks, and now he/she's looking to get a fiance visa?

How about they give all the legitimate relationships a break?

This kind of abuse is exactly why thousands of couples in long term, committed and genuine relationships have to work for years and jump through hoops to prove they're not pulling a scam.

Edit: That's assuming this isn't just a troll thread.

Edited June 12, 2016 by impulse

[kmp2290]

Thank you wooloomooloo,

Guys, give the girl a break. This sub-forum is as good as any place to start investigating the chances of whether an appeal is in order. Notwithstanding, it's the moderators job to decide who, and who can't, post here.

This has not been adequately demonstrated with the evidence submitted and the haste in which you wish to be married raises concerns as to the genuineness and sustainability of the relationship and your motives.

As I am sure you will understand, the bottom line is the above quote of the refusal with emphasis on the word 'haste', kmp.

I met my wife online in August 2009. I first met my now wife in person in December 2009 [two week holiday], then again in March 2010 [another two week holiday] and on our third meeting in August 2010 we were married [three weeks]. One week after our wedding my wife submitted her settlement visa application in Bangkok.

Our application was absolutely solid but I was always a little wary of the short timescale of our relationship. Anyway, long story short, the application was approved first time.

I would imagine, though, that the timescale of our relationship was pretty much on the absolute threshold between 'haste' and 'barely just there', if you get my drift.

From my limited knowledge, I would imagine that you have more chance of meeting Elvis in your local supermarket than appealing successfully on a human rights claim.

Though, obviously, you do have a right of appeal, and I am sure that Thai Visa Express [Tony M and colleagues] are more than qualified to assist you going forward in this regard.

Good luck for the future to the both of you.

First, it is not really our concern (my Fiance and I) if we do Human Rights Claim under Article 8 of ECHR. But thanks for the advice on that part I appreciate it

Our main concern now is basically how to overturn the ECO's decision about the refusal of the entry clearance. Yes it is a short timescale relationship, but I am sure that all our evidences are enough to prove that it is a genuine relationship. We have provided more than enough of our chat conversation plus we both made letters to explain how our relationship develop from online to real life. The thing we are questioning is that, we have submitted all the documents to them but the ECO as he mentioned found no evidence of what we are claiming "our intended marriage". A marriage booking was done by my Fiance, stating the Date, Time and Venue of our wedding that will take place in the UK. So it could either mean that our documents submitted might not have been reviewed well or either they lost it.

[wooloomooloo]

This kind of abuse is exactly why thousands of couples in long term, committed and genuine relationships have to work for years and jump through hoops to prove they're not pulling a scam.

Definitely doesn't have to be 'years' to prove that a relationship is not a scam, impulse.

If you read my post, you will note that my wife I only met three times in the space of eight months and my wife was granted a settlement visa first time.

I would therefore suggest that it's unhelpful to disseminate your assertion on this forum that a couple have to be together for years. That's patently not true.

[kmp2290]

Thank you for your response.

Yes you are right that we only lived together for 2 weeks during his first visit to the Philippines. But if you would go back to my original post, I have mentioned that we have submitted additional requirements about his next return to the Philippines which happened 3 months after his first visit. Being engaged that early in our relationship is not an "abuse" or a "scam" as you called it. You don't know the whole story of our relationship for you to call it with such words! We applied for the visa hoping that it would give us the opportunity to live close together and have our legal rights as a couple.

Guys, give the girl a break. This sub-forum is as good as any place to start investigating the chances of whether an appeal is in order. Notwithstanding, it's the moderators job to decide who, and who can't, post here.

Quote

This has not been adequately demonstrated with the evidence submitted and the haste in which you wish to be married raises concerns as to the genuineness and sustainability of the relationship and your motives.

i

Give the girl a break? They lived together a whopping 2 weeks, and now he/she's looking to get a fiance visa?

How about they give all the legitimate relationships a break?

This kind of abuse is exactly why thousands of couples in long term, committed and genuine relationships have to work for years and jump through hoops to prove they're not pulling a scam.

Edit: That's assuming this isn't just a troll thread.

[wooloomooloo]

First, it is not really our concern (my Fiance and I) if we do Human Rights Claim under Article 8 of ECHR. But thanks for the advice on that part I appreciate it

Our main concern now is basically how to overturn the ECO's decision about the refusal of the entry clearance. Yes it is a short timescale relationship, but I am sure that all our evidences are enough to prove that it is a genuine relationship. We have provided more than enough of our chat conversation plus we both made letters to explain how our relationship develop from online to real life. The thing we are questioning is that, we have submitted all the documents to them but the ECO as he mentioned found no evidence of what we are claiming "our intended marriage". A marriage booking was done by my Fiance, stating the Date, Time and Venue of our wedding that will take place in the UK. So it could either mean that our documents submitted might not have been reviewed well or either they lost it.

kmp, firstly, if it was me, I would definitely appeal whatever the circumstances as it was a huge amount of money to invest in the application in the first place. Secondly, nothing ventured nothing gained.

If you do appeal, in the first instance the application will be reviewed by a senior ECO to ensure that the assessing officer was correct, or not correct, in their initial refusal. So there is always the possibility that an appeal may not get as far as the appeal tribunal.

As for all the nuances of a potential appeal, you really should seek the advice of an OISC registered immigration advisor like the forum sponsor, Thai Visa Express.

Edited June 12, 2016 by wooloomooloo

[johnmell]

The big problem here in these kind of relationships is that you only get about 5-6 weeks holiday a year , working in the UK, so not much time available to spend time together. When you need to take days off in the UK for various things does not leave much left to be gallivanting off to the Philippines.

[kmp2290]

The big problem here in these kind of relationships is that you only get about 5-6 weeks holiday a year , working in the UK, so not much time available to spend time together. When you need to take days off in the UK for various things does not leave much left to be gallivanting off to the Philippines.

I definitely agree with your opinion. It is one of the things we both consider. My fiance cant stay longer than 1 month as he has his family and work in the UK. So the best thing we think of getting together is to apply for the fiance visa, thinking that we can prove the our relationship is real and we have true intentions of being together.

[DipStick]

It is also possible that you are being partially victimised due to your nationality. Filipina/o are widely recognised as being potential illegal immigrants simply because history shows that nearly every country in the world is home to illegal Filipino all under the radar, working illegally and quite happy to do so.

In 2009 it was estimated that in the UK there were over 618,000 illegals from Non EU countries mostly made up of nationals of Bangladesh, Africa and the Philippines.

As a very experienced frequent flyer, it didn't take me long to realise queuing in an immigration line behind a Filipina was tortuous and more often than not it took much longer to clear. It is also well known that females(more so than males) are grilled by your own immigration when attempting to depart the Philippines and on more than one occasion I have personally seen people getting refused exit and taken away for what I guess is further and deeper interrogation.

The ECO raised some valid points, however I would be inclined to point a finger at your fellow nationals who are quite happy to break every law in the book to better themselves and are proud of doing it.

[wooloomooloo]

It is also possible that you are being partially victimised due to your nationality.

This isn't helpful and complete BS as far as I'm concerned. Get a grip.

[bobrussell]

An ECO is not there to judge a relationship choice. We are all entitled to make decisions to marry as we see fit (bigamy and age excepted!).

The ECO has stated that the evidence provided has not convinced him that the relationship is genuine and subsisting. If he or she has missed key evidence in the application then ask for a review of this decision in the first instance. Figures suggest that quite a lot are 'corrected' at an early stage.

Although there is no requirement to consider additional evidence at this stage perhaps any further information 'strengthening' the case, might be worth including.

Some marriages based on very short relationships, last decades and some decade length relationships fail shortly after marriage! Making judgements either way is meaningless.

Did you really provided good evidence of the relationship? Did the ECO miss key information? If so ask for review!

[kmp2290]

An ECO is not there to judge a relationship choice. We are all entitled to make decisions to marry as we see fit (bigamy and age excepted!).

The ECO has stated that the evidence provided has not convinced him that the relationship is genuine and subsisting. If he or she has missed key evidence in the application then ask for a review of this decision in the first instance. Figures suggest that quite a lot are 'corrected' at an early stage.

Although there is no requirement to consider additional evidence at this stage perhaps any further information 'strengthening' the case, might be worth including.

Some marriages based on very short relationships, last decades and some decade length relationships fail shortly after marriage! Making judgements either way is meaningless.

Did you really provided good evidence of the relationship? Did the ECO miss key information? If so ask for review!

Hi Bob!

Thank you for responding. Yes I am confident we have submitted all evidences to prove that our relationship is real. However, I have doubts that the ECO probably did not go through these evidences, esp the marriage booking, as he mentioned he didn't see any evidence submitted that we area getting married. As well, we have submitted 2 letters (1 from me and 1 from my fiance) that has all the details of how our relationship has developed and so on. Plus, 3 letters from our friends were as well submitted to testify about our relationship. As well receipts of our expenses together and additional receipts of his expenses for me and bank statements showing that he is supporting me financially. Yes we are currently processing our papers for an appeal.

[tolsti]

Naah.... English is too good. Flippers spell in the American fashion. Sub-bridge dweller.

[wooloomooloo]

The ECO has stated that the evidence provided has not convinced him that the relationship is genuine and subsisting. If he or she has missed key evidence in the application then ask for a review of this decision in the first instance. Figures suggest that quite a lot are 'corrected' at an early stage.

Bob, just in case you missed the absolute crux of the refusal:

As I am sure you will understand, the bottom line is the above quote of the refusal with emphasis on the word 'haste', kmp.

I do understand that there could potentially be an oversight in relevant evidence provided of a genuine and subsisting relationship within the application but the ECO has been emphatic as to the haste of the application in a short-lived relationship. I'm not judging, but it does lie at the absolute heart of the refusal.

kmp, have you sought legal advice thus far?

[wooloomooloo]

Naah.... English is too good. Flippers spell in the American fashion. Sub-bridge dweller.

Not helpful. What was your point again?

[kmp2290]

kmp, have you sought legal advice thus far?

yes, we have actually discussed this with a lawyer.

[bobrussell]

The comment 'haste' really suggests a moral judgement based on the ECO's belief of what is right and wrong. It has no place in a decision unless there is evidence that the relationship may be a sham one!

The ECO is not there to protect us from ourselves! He or she may believe it is hasty but that is not relevant to the application. They have to issue the visa in line with the law. If it is a genuine relationship, still going on at the time of the application and adequate evidence is submitted then the time the two parties have known each other is irrelevant.

It is quite normal in many cultures for an engaged couple to have known each other for a very short time.

Worth checking out:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/263237/section-FM2.1.pdf

This gives guidance regarding genuine and subsisting relationship. It is used to identify forced and sham marriages.

Particularly:

Caseworkers must be alert and sensitive to the extent to which religious and

cultural practices may shape the factors present or absent in a particular case,

particularly at the entry clearance/leave to remain stage. For example, a couple

in an arranged marriage may have spent little if any time together prior to the

marriage. For many faiths and cultures marriage marks the start of a

commitment to a lifelong partnership and not the affirmation of a pre-existing

partnership.

May not be a cultural thing in this case but why would it be acceptable for one couple but unacceptable to another except as discrimination?

Clearly there may be many factors that the ECO has considered that we are not privy to but the principle should be that everyone is treated equally!

Edited June 13, 2016 by bobrussell

[wooloomooloo]

yes, we have actually discussed this with a lawyer.

Thanks. What is the lawyer's appraisal of the refusal and future merits of an appeal?

Edited June 13, 2016 by wooloomooloo