Bringing Thaksin To Account

[ColPyat]

But it's a lot better than doing nothing; I remember the King in his annual birthday speech asking for an explanation and details of all the drug killings from Thaksin, there was little response.

And as far as i can remember that particular speach, to which i have listened to closely (and i have asked the wife as well, who also remembers that speach very well), he also said that if it were only 2000 dead it would be a little problem if compared to solving the massive drug problem Thailand had (of which he has made a large topic in his previous birthday speach), and asking for an investigation as he has heard that far more have died.

The "investigation" was dutyfully performed, and result after one month was that "only" 2000 have died indeed, all in police encounters with suspects resisting arrest, or in inter gang silencing killings, as the government has claimed before. The results of this "investigation" were at the time widely published.

That was the end of it.

If my memory serves me right, the initial figure quoted by Govt sources as having been killed was several thousand ( I dont recall the figure but it was a lot more than 2000). Then after His Majesty voiced his concerns about the number, a short time later the figure was reduced, with the explanation that a mistake had been made with the original higher figure!!!!!!

Another sideways shuffle by Thaksin and his boys!!!!

The government initially published their daily kill numbers, but after the first voices of discontent, the government refused (i believe it was during the second month) to give out any more numbers. By that time the official count was either 2000 or 2500.

Nobody knows the exact number, but several police and military officers i know have put the number at about 4000 to 5000.

The military was very much involved in the drugwar, especially in the border areas, together with the border police. The border police was also here in Bangkok heavily involved. They have had barracks in Klong Toey slum, to which they were stationed from Mae Sot several months before the drug war.

[Johpa]

Extrajudicial killings aside, the war on drugs worked. Usage plummeted and prices soared. Not sure how many if you were around before and after, but there was a huge difference in terms of the amount of drugs available on the street and in schools.

How did it work? Drugs are still available, the only people arrested or shot were low level dealers, ex-addicts and throw in some innocent people for good measure.

If Thaksin and his cronies had really cared about the drugs problem then there would have been long term measures to help addicts, arrest the top drug dealers / bosses and implement long term positive anti-drug policies. But what did we get? A complete farce instead.

The whole farce just sums up how Thaksin and most politicians couldn't give a rat's ass about Thailand or Thai people.

From the perspective of the people most negatively impacted by the drug epidemic, the rural villagers, the program of extra-judical killings did work. It removed the source of drugs from the local amphoe secondary schools where the villager's children were constantly being presssured to purchase low cost meth-amphetamines. It lowered the number of junkies in the villages and thus lowered the local crime, mostly theft and domestic violence, including murder. It is hard for those in the larger towns and in the ex-pat ghettos to fully appreciate the misery this drug epidemic caused to the rural villagers only a short time after they had overcome the worst of the AIDs epidemic of the 1990s.

Extra-judicial justice is nothing new to the rural poor, nor is violence and murder out of the ordinary in the villages. Few of the rural folks have access to courts or lawyers. You are all imaging the world of rural Thailand to be similar to your world and it is not.

Another good example of extra-judical killings took place up north in the early 1970s. A good read of this time can be found in Political Conflict in Thailand by David Morrell and Chaianan Samudavanija. Those killings kept rural folks for becoming involved in politics for over a generation. I suspect the drug killings had a similar effect on some potential drug dealer wannabes.

I am not condoning the actions of the Taksin government. But many rural Thais were happy that the government was dealing with the drug problem at their level where the harm was being done. Are there still dealers and drugs out there? For sure, but far fewer selling directly to 13 year old kids. And sure no high level dealers or actors in the drug trade were going to be targeted. The people understand that the government is powerless to move against the upper echelons of the drug trade as that would involve moving against very high ranking government people and their bankers. But again, they were happy that the problem from their vantage point was improved. Were innocents, relative to the drug trade, killed along the way? Sure, but such killings were not uncommon before and not uncommon now.

[sriracha john]

WAR ON DRUGS

DEAD BOY'S KIN

Search urged for missing mother

Relatives of a nine-year-old boy who was killed during the Thaksin government's war on drugs yesterday called on the Justice Ministry to track down his mother, Justice permanent secretary Jarun Pukditanakul said. Mr Jarun made the disclosure after meeting three relatives of Chakkraphand Srisa-ard for about an hour. ''The relatives want the ministry to help search for Chakkraphand's mother as she has not been in contact with them and they fear the case will reach its statute of limitations,'' he said. The relatives, whom he refused to name for security reasons, had given him the National Human Rights Commission's (NHRC) findings on the case, he said.

Chakkraphand was believed to have been shot dead on Feb 23, 2003 by undercover police from Bang Chan district who posed as buyers of drugs from his father Sathaporn. His mother, Pornwipa Kerdrung, sped away in a car as the police moved in to arrest her husband, and she has been missing since.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/18Nov2006_news17.php

[marshbags]

Extrajudicial killings aside, the war on drugs worked. Usage plummeted and prices soared. Not sure how many if you were around before and after, but there was a huge difference in terms of the amount of drugs available on the street and in schools.

How did it work? Drugs are still available, the only people arrested or shot were low level dealers, ex-addicts and throw in some innocent people for good measure.

If Thaksin and his cronies had really cared about the drugs problem then there would have been long term measures to help addicts, arrest the top drug dealers / bosses and implement long term positive anti-drug policies. But what did we get? A complete farce instead.

The whole farce just sums up how Thaksin and most politicians couldn't give a rat's ass about Thailand or Thai people.

From the perspective of the people most negatively impacted by the drug epidemic, the rural villagers, the program of extra-judical killings did work. It removed the source of drugs from the local amphoe secondary schools where the villager's children were constantly being presssured to purchase low cost meth-amphetamines. It lowered the number of junkies in the villages and thus lowered the local crime, mostly theft and domestic violence, including murder. It is hard for those in the larger towns and in the ex-pat ghettos to fully appreciate the misery this drug epidemic caused to the rural villagers only a short time after they had overcome the worst of the AIDs epidemic of the 1990s.

Extra-judicial justice is nothing new to the rural poor, nor is violence and murder out of the ordinary in the villages. Few of the rural folks have access to courts or lawyers. You are all imaging the world of rural Thailand to be similar to your world and it is not.

Another good example of extra-judical killings took place up north in the early 1970s. A good read of this time can be found in Political Conflict in Thailand by David Morrell and Chaianan Samudavanija. Those killings kept rural folks for becoming involved in politics for over a generation. I suspect the drug killings had a similar effect on some potential drug dealer wannabes.

I am not condoning the actions of the Taksin government. But many rural Thais were happy that the government was dealing with the drug problem at their level where the harm was being done. Are there still dealers and drugs out there? For sure, but far fewer selling directly to 13 year old kids. And sure no high level dealers or actors in the drug trade were going to be targeted. The people understand that the government is powerless to move against the upper echelons of the drug trade as that would involve moving against very high ranking government people and their bankers. But again, they were happy that the problem from their vantage point was improved. Were innocents, relative to the drug trade, killed along the way? Sure, but such killings were not uncommon before and not uncommon now.

Johpa, lets be real here.

The fact is that the majority of the victims of this pathetic one sided show to clean up drugs where either innocent or small fish in a big pond.

It was a selective ethnic cleansing programme to silence the ones in the know while protecting the big fish.

How can anyone claim the drug situation has been addressed when ALL the main dealers, PUYAI ect are still walking freely and able to continue with their deadly trade.

It really is a load of bullshit to say that many rural Thai,s are happy with the gov. and how it was dealing / has dealt with the situation.

To say and i quote you :-

" And sure no high level dealers or actors in the drug trade were going to be targeted. The people understand that the government is powerless to move against the upper echelons of the drug trade as that would involve moving against very high ranking government people and their bankers. But again, they were happy that the problem from their vantage point was improved. Were innocents, relative to the drug trade, killed along the way? Sure, but such killings were not uncommon before and not uncommon now. "

How far from reality can you be ??????

In the north east where i live all that has happened is the dealing has gone underground and as such is even more dangerous to control.

Had some of these hig profile dealers been took out in the same murderous way the small fish / innocent where it would have looked like it really was a genuine attempt to rid the country of this vile trade.

Finally you attempts to / or appear to justify the actions of these evil executioners by the latter part of your post in saying that innocents relative to the drug trade are not uncommon and that makes it o.k. and therefore acceptable.

Even the guilty ones at the lower level of this trade DESERVED a fair trial and the right to be judged on the outcome in pro portion to their alledged crimes, if i may be allowed to repeat a past observation / statement.

marshbags

Edited November 18, 2006 by marshbags

[Jai Dee]

Justice to probe disappearance of mother whose son killed by police

Justice Ministry permanent secretary Charan Phakdithanakul Friday agreed to look into the disappearance of the mother of a nineyearold boy who was killed in a sting operation by Bangkok's Bang Chan police over three years ago.

On February, 23, 2003, Jakkraphan "Nong Fluke" Srisaard was allegedly killed by a stray bullet from an officer's gun while the arresting team was trying to apprehend his drugdealing father Sathaporn Srisaard.

Nong Fluke's mother, Phornwipha Kerdrungreung, who was also at the scene went missing and hasn't been seen since.

Three relatives of the Srisaard family Friday met with Charan and submitted evidence including a report by the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) investigation that identified Phornwipa as a key witness to the shooting.

Charan then told reporters that if there were anything the Justice Ministry could do to help in the disappearance of Phornwipa, he would ensure full cooperation.

Source: The Nation - 18 November 2006

[JacknDanny]

Extrajudicial killings aside, the war on drugs worked. Usage plummeted and prices soared. Not sure how many if you were around before and after, but there was a huge difference in terms of the amount of drugs available on the street and in schools.

How did it work? Drugs are still available, the only people arrested or shot were low level dealers, ex-addicts and throw in some innocent people for good measure.

If Thaksin and his cronies had really cared about the drugs problem then there would have been long term measures to help addicts, arrest the top drug dealers / bosses and implement long term positive anti-drug policies. But what did we get? A complete farce instead.

The whole farce just sums up how Thaksin and most politicians couldn't give a rat's ass about Thailand or Thai people.

From the perspective of the people most negatively impacted by the drug epidemic, the rural villagers, the program of extra-judical killings did work. It removed the source of drugs from the local amphoe secondary schools where the villager's children were constantly being presssured to purchase low cost meth-amphetamines. It lowered the number of junkies in the villages and thus lowered the local crime, mostly theft and domestic violence, including murder. It is hard for those in the larger towns and in the ex-pat ghettos to fully appreciate the misery this drug epidemic caused to the rural villagers only a short time after they had overcome the worst of the AIDs epidemic of the 1990s.

Extra-judicial justice is nothing new to the rural poor, nor is violence and murder out of the ordinary in the villages. Few of the rural folks have access to courts or lawyers. You are all imaging the world of rural Thailand to be similar to your world and it is not.

Another good example of extra-judical killings took place up north in the early 1970s. A good read of this time can be found in Political Conflict in Thailand by David Morrell and Chaianan Samudavanija. Those killings kept rural folks for becoming involved in politics for over a generation. I suspect the drug killings had a similar effect on some potential drug dealer wannabes.

I am not condoning the actions of the Taksin government. But many rural Thais were happy that the government was dealing with the drug problem at their level where the harm was being done. Are there still dealers and drugs out there? For sure, but far fewer selling directly to 13 year old kids. And sure no high level dealers or actors in the drug trade were going to be targeted. The people understand that the government is powerless to move against the upper echelons of the drug trade as that would involve moving against very high ranking government people and their bankers. But again, they were happy that the problem from their vantage point was improved. Were innocents, relative to the drug trade, killed along the way? Sure, but such killings were not uncommon before and not uncommon now.

Johpa, lets be real here.

The fact is that the majority of the victims of this pathetic one sided show to clean up drugs where either innocent or small fish in a big pond.

It was a selective ethnic cleansing programme to silence the ones in the know while protecting the big fish.

How can anyone claim the drug situation has been addressed when ALL the main dealers, PUYAI ect are still walking freely and able to continue with their deadly trade.

It really is a load of bullshit to say that many rural Thai,s are happy with the gov. and how it was dealing / has dealt with the situation.

To say and i quote you :-

" And sure no high level dealers or actors in the drug trade were going to be targeted. The people understand that the government is powerless to move against the upper echelons of the drug trade as that would involve moving against very high ranking government people and their bankers. But again, they were happy that the problem from their vantage point was improved. Were innocents, relative to the drug trade, killed along the way? Sure, but such killings were not uncommon before and not uncommon now. "

How far from reality can you be ??????

In the north east where i live all that has happened is the dealing has gone underground and as such is even more dangerous to control.

Had some of these hig profile dealers been took out in the same murderous way the small fish / innocent where it would have looked like it really was a genuine attempt to rid the country of this vile trade.

Finally you attempts to / or appear to justify the actions of these evil executioners by the latter part of your post in saying that innocents relative to the drug trade are not uncommon and that makes it o.k. and therefore acceptable.

Even the guilty ones at the lower level of this trade DESERVED a fair trial and the right to be judged on the outcome in pro portion to their alledged crimes, if i may be allowed to repeat a past observation / statement.

marshbags

Excellent post. I wholeheartedly agree with what you say. I believe anyone who has been here for any amount of time would also concur.

It was just Thaksin spinning and spinning to win votes and at the same time looking after the guys who are looking after him. I cannot believe that there are people on this forum who cannot see Thaksin for what he is

[Johpa]

Extrajudicial killings aside, the war on drugs worked. Usage plummeted and prices soared. Not sure how many if you were around before and after, but there was a huge difference in terms of the amount of drugs available on the street and in schools.

How did it work? Drugs are still available, the only people arrested or shot were low level dealers, ex-addicts and throw in some innocent people for good measure.

If Thaksin and his cronies had really cared about the drugs problem then there would have been long term measures to help addicts, arrest the top drug dealers / bosses and implement long term positive anti-drug policies. But what did we get? A complete farce instead.

The whole farce just sums up how Thaksin and most politicians couldn't give a rat's ass about Thailand or Thai people.

From the perspective of the people most negatively impacted by the drug epidemic, the rural villagers, the program of extra-judical killings did work. It removed the source of drugs from the local amphoe secondary schools where the villager's children were constantly being presssured to purchase low cost meth-amphetamines. It lowered the number of junkies in the villages and thus lowered the local crime, mostly theft and domestic violence, including murder. It is hard for those in the larger towns and in the ex-pat ghettos to fully appreciate the misery this drug epidemic caused to the rural villagers only a short time after they had overcome the worst of the AIDs epidemic of the 1990s.

Extra-judicial justice is nothing new to the rural poor, nor is violence and murder out of the ordinary in the villages. Few of the rural folks have access to courts or lawyers. You are all imaging the world of rural Thailand to be similar to your world and it is not.

Another good example of extra-judical killings took place up north in the early 1970s. A good read of this time can be found in Political Conflict in Thailand by David Morrell and Chaianan Samudavanija. Those killings kept rural folks for becoming involved in politics for over a generation. I suspect the drug killings had a similar effect on some potential drug dealer wannabes.

I am not condoning the actions of the Taksin government and you seemed to have missed that point in my original post, if not perhaps missed the larger point entirely. But many rural Thais were happy that the government was dealing with the drug problem at their level where the harm was being done. Are there still dealers and drugs out there? For sure, but far fewer selling directly to 13 year old kids. And sure no high level dealers or actors in the drug trade were going to be targeted. The people understand that the government is powerless to move against the upper echelons of the drug trade as that would involve moving against very high ranking government people and their bankers. But again, they were happy that the problem from their vantage point was improved. Were innocents, relative to the drug trade, killed along the way? Sure, but such killings were not uncommon before and not uncommon now.

Johpa, lets be real here.

The fact is that the majority of the victims of this pathetic one sided show to clean up drugs where either innocent or small fish in a big pond.

It was a selective ethnic cleansing programme to silence the ones in the know while protecting the big fish.

How can anyone claim the drug situation has been addressed when ALL the main dealers, PUYAI ect are still walking freely and able to continue with their deadly trade.

It really is a load of bullshit to say that many rural Thai,s are happy with the gov. and how it was dealing / has dealt with the situation.

To say and i quote you :-

" And sure no high level dealers or actors in the drug trade were going to be targeted. The people understand that the government is powerless to move against the upper echelons of the drug trade as that would involve moving against very high ranking government people and their bankers. But again, they were happy that the problem from their vantage point was improved. Were innocents, relative to the drug trade, killed along the way? Sure, but such killings were not uncommon before and not uncommon now. "

How far from reality can you be ??????

In the north east where i live all that has happened is the dealing has gone underground and as such is even more dangerous to control.

Had some of these hig profile dealers been took out in the same murderous way the small fish / innocent where it would have looked like it really was a genuine attempt to rid the country of this vile trade.

Finally you attempts to / or appear to justify the actions of these evil executioners by the latter part of your post in saying that innocents relative to the drug trade are not uncommon and that makes it o.k. and therefore acceptable.

Even the guilty ones at the lower level of this trade DESERVED a fair trial and the right to be judged on the outcome in pro portion to their alledged crimes, if i may be allowed to repeat a past observation / statement.

marshbags

As I noted, the majority of those killed were indeed small fish in the pond, but you won't find the big fish in the rural areas. I am not sure what you are getting at regarding ethnic cleansing, but many of those killed that I heard about, including a distant cousin, were so far down the ladder they would not know who the big fish were.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly that the drug problem as a whole has not been addressed nor will it be addressed. Again, as I noted, the people understand that nothing is going to happen to those higher up. Your reasons for becoming a bit apoplectic when we are in agreement here is a bit bewildering.

Look, my perspective comes from the poorer areas of the rural north and not from Isaan. But when this was happening a few years ago, many people in the villages were happy because they saw a lessening of drug activities in the schools. They had not been happy that their children, including my nephews and nieces, were coming home with stories about drugs being sold openly to 13 year olds. After the action, the selling inside the schools stopped and yes, it went underground and prices went up and exploratory usage by young teenagers dropped. People were indeed pleased as life improved.

I was not particuarly pleased by the extra-judicial murders, but I am not a poor rural Thai. I would never condone these actions. My post was not intended to justify these murders but only to describe how they were perceived by many rural Thai people I have met. From the perspective a a rural Thai, the effort did work.

Its sort of like the recent coup. Nobody is really happy that Taksin was removed by a military coup but they are all happy he was removed and are resigned to fact that a military coup was the only likely method to remove him. The villagers were not totally pleased that the killings happened but were resigned to the reality that it worked to improve their lives even a small bit.

So as you can see, I am not all that far from your reality, but I think I am perhaps more able, at the same time, to understand the reality as perceived by some of the Thais. I am not going to judge these people because they are my friends and family and for the greater part they are very good people indeed.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Johpa

[Siripon]

I'm with Johpa on this one, methamphetamines were everywhere, schoolchildren especially targeted. It was a real menace and it's a nasty drug.

In one small north- eastern town I know plain clothes men entered the market at 10.00 and shot dead a man in front of all, then they went in their unmarked pick-up.

People were shocked but not horrified, the man's family ran a video rental business as a front, it was well known he was an agent for methamphetamines.

When I was young bandits upcountry often met a violent end, it was hard to find witnesses for prosecutions, the public accepted this.

I've noticed the recent trend to use sting operations, though that's been criticised as encouraging drug production as producers rush to fill the orders!

The investigation of the drug killings go hand-in-hand with attempts to reform the police force but it's hard to believe anyone will be implicated as no doubt nothing was written down.

[lukamar]

Actually it was Lukamar who left the quesion unanswered, but he's nowhere to be seen today.

Sorry I didn't sign in with you, I was busy.

The question wasn't unanswered, I previously said the military was involved. I did not say the present government was involve as was intimated, that would not be possible as they were only installed mid September. That's about as direct as you can get.

I will however tell you that the army units, in the North, that were used did not wear any insignia designating their units or ranks. This is first hand knowledge and not from any source.

[Plus]

What was the role or border patrol units in Klong Toei? Were they under police command or minding their own business?

Those unmarked or plain clothes killing squads do not exist on paper, they won't be the part of any investigation. Generals have nothing to be scared of.

[sriracha john]

Its sort of like the recent coup. Nobody is really happy that Taksin was removed by a military coup but they are all happy he was removed and are resigned to fact that a military coup was the only likely method to remove him. The villagers were not totally pleased that the killings happened but were resigned to the reality that it worked to improve their lives even a small bit.

I appreciate your clarification on the Drug War of your previous post, Johpa... but I'm bit curious as there are a few on this Forum that would have us believe that the overwhelming majority of Northern Thais are so totally and uniformly angered by the coup. They'd have us believe that the Northern Thais are plotting overthrows of the government after storming their way to Bangkok and that they are, almost to the person, furious about Thaksin's removal and will never accept the coup.... or at least that is the crux of their posting.

It's always nice to hear from people living directly in that area that perhaps these are mere exaggerations.

[ColPyat]

What was the role or border patrol units in Klong Toei? Were they under police command or minding their own business?

Those unmarked or plain clothes killing squads do not exist on paper, they won't be the part of any investigation. Generals have nothing to be scared of.

Their initial role was to familiarize themselves with the area, then they started arresting many people. What other roles they have performed you will not find any written evidence.

And yes, Generals won't have much to be scared about, and the same way Thaksin won't, unfortunately. The only hope is that some of the many police officers who were ordered to kill, and were not happy about it, can come in the open and testify against their superiors who have given the orders. And that way working the chain of command up.

But i doubt that this will happen.

[Johpa]

I appreciate your clarification on the Drug War of your previous post, Johpa... but I'm bit curious as there are a few on this Forum that would have us believe that the overwhelming majority of Northern Thais are so totally and uniformly angered by the coup. They'd have us believe that the Northern Thais are plotting overthrows of the government after storming their way to Bangkok and that they are, almost to the person, furious about Thaksin's removal and will never accept the coup.... or at least that is the crux of their posting.

It's always nice to hear from people living directly in that area that perhaps these are mere exaggerations.

Just to clarify things, currently I am not living in Thailand, my observations are from an earlier visit soon after these actions took place and from follow-up conversations with family members, one of whom is a teacher (the best intelligence network in the rural areas are the local teachers) and another who works for a local development council (O.P.T.), sorry can't remember exactly what it stands for and the wife is asleep.

It is clear that the rural poor supported Taksin, and why not? He did throw them some bones with his "populist" policies. Taksin threw some bones to the poor to gather their votes, just as other political parties have done for generations. He just threw them a bigger bone because he had the ability to go out a buy a bigger bone to throw. And when he got in power he threw them some bones from the government, his perceived "populist" policies to maintain his voting support during elections. For example, in one small minority village I have known for 25 years now, he had the government distribute bicycles to familes whose kids had to walk quite a distance to the nearest school. For a rarther small cost he bought the hearts and minds of an entire village area for two generations. But none of these people are going to get involved directly in politics. The rural poor are not the people rumored to be plotting against the coup. When the rural poor start to get involved in politics you need to tread carefully as this is not tolerated by the elite in Bangkok. Read Chai-anan and Morrell's book Political Conflict in Thailand why the rural poor are hesistant to become involved, especially those up north.

The poor had better be careful now that the Taksin has been removed. The opposition is using the "populist" policies of the TRT party as one of the primary scapegoats and are begining to do some serious badmouthing of the rural poor in public. The opponents to the TRT, such as Sondhi Limthongkul, are organizing in such a way as to unite the newest elite in control of the biggest piece of the pie with the "middle class" in opposition to the rural poor. This path is as dangerous to Thailand as was the megalomaniac path of Taksin as it combines a class conflict with a cleverly veiled ethnic conflict.

[lukamar]

What was the role or border patrol units in Klong Toei? Were they under police command or minding their own business?

Those unmarked or plain clothes killing squads do not exist on paper, they won't be the part of any investigation. Generals have nothing to be scared of.

The only hope is that some of the many police officers who were ordered to kill, and were not happy about it, can come in the open and testify against their superiors who have given the orders. And that way working the chain of command up.

But i doubt that this will happen.

Plus, covert actions are never recorded and and if they are there is a lid put on them that is so tight no one can get in. That's the way the military works. I'm sure you won't find a lot of written evidence from the military that the coup happened either, but we all know that it did. Just because orders are given verbally does not mean that they were not given. Using your logic Thaksin is probably innocent as well, I'm sure he's not stupid enough to write down even one kill request let alone thousands.

ColPyat, It is very unlikely these people knowing what happened would step forward to testify. It would probably be akin to pinning a target on their chest and they all know it.

[ColPyat]

The opponents to the TRT, such as Sondhi Limthongkul, are organizing in such a way as to unite the newest elite in control of the biggest piece of the pie with the "middle class" in opposition to the rural poor. This path is as dangerous to Thailand as was the megalomaniac path of Taksin as it combines a class conflict with a cleverly veiled ethnic conflict.

Spot on!

The coming lull after the harvest will be the first scare as people from the rural areas are not busy, and it is yet not clear if organisations such as the Forum of the Poor and the Caravan of the Poor, with support of the Taxi driver's association are getting involved, or stay out.

Happy about decisions such as lowering the rice price they are not, that is clear already.

[ColPyat]

ColPyat, It is very unlikely these people knowing what happened would step forward to testify. It would probably be akin to pinning a target on their chest and they all know it.

Yeps, unfortunately you are right.

I would already see it as a step foreward if the families of the victims would get their assets restored and an additional generous compensation.

[sriracha john]

I appreciate your clarification on the Drug War of your previous post, Johpa... but I'm bit curious as there are a few on this Forum that would have us believe that the overwhelming majority of Northern Thais are so totally and uniformly angered by the coup. They'd have us believe that the Northern Thais are plotting overthrows of the government after storming their way to Bangkok and that they are, almost to the person, furious about Thaksin's removal and will never accept the coup.... or at least that is the crux of their posting.

It's always nice to hear from people living directly in that area that perhaps these are mere exaggerations.

Just to clarify things, currently I am not living in Thailand, my observations are from an earlier visit soon after these actions took place and from follow-up conversations with family members, one of whom is a teacher (the best intelligence network in the rural areas are the local teachers) and another who works for a local development council (O.P.T.), sorry can't remember exactly what it stands for and the wife is asleep.

It is clear that the rural poor supported Taksin, and why not? He did throw them some bones with his "populist" policies. Taksin threw some bones to the poor to gather their votes, just as other political parties have done for generations. He just threw them a bigger bone because he had the ability to go out a buy a bigger bone to throw. And when he got in power he threw them some bones from the government, his perceived "populist" policies to maintain his voting support during elections. For example, in one small minority village I have known for 25 years now, he had the government distribute bicycles to familes whose kids had to walk quite a distance to the nearest school. For a rarther small cost he bought the hearts and minds of an entire village area for two generations. But none of these people are going to get involved directly in politics. The rural poor are not the people rumored to be plotting against the coup. When the rural poor start to get involved in politics you need to tread carefully as this is not tolerated by the elite in Bangkok. Read Chai-anan and Morrell's book Political Conflict in Thailand why the rural poor are hesistant to become involved, especially those up north.

Thank you for the additional information. It's refreshing to hear the descriptions of the North in a straight-forward and truthful manner.

[marshbags]

As I noted, the majority of those killed were indeed small fish in the pond, but you won't find the big fish in the rural areas. I am not sure what you are getting at regarding ethnic cleansing, but many of those killed that I heard about, including a distant cousin, were so far down the ladder they would not know who the big fish were.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly that the drug problem as a whole has not been addressed nor will it be addressed. Again, as I noted, the people understand that nothing is going to happen to those higher up. Your reasons for becoming a bit apoplectic when we are in agreement here is a bit bewildering.

Look, my perspective comes from the poorer areas of the rural north and not from Isaan. But when this was happening a few years ago, many people in the villages were happy because they saw a lessening of drug activities in the schools. They had not been happy that their children, including my nephews and nieces, were coming home with stories about drugs being sold openly to 13 year olds. After the action, the selling inside the schools stopped and yes, it went underground and prices went up and exploratory usage by young teenagers dropped. People were indeed pleased as life improved.

I was not particuarly pleased by the extra-judicial murders, but I am not a poor rural Thai. I would never condone these actions. My post was not intended to justify these murders but only to describe how they were perceived by many rural Thai people I have met. From the perspective a a rural Thai, the effort did work.

Its sort of like the recent coup. Nobody is really happy that Taksin was removed by a military coup but they are all happy he was removed and are resigned to fact that a military coup was the only likely method to remove him. The villagers were not totally pleased that the killings happened but were resigned to the reality that it worked to improve their lives even a small bit.

So as you can see, I am not all that far from your reality, but I think I am perhaps more able, at the same time, to understand the reality as perceived by some of the Thais. I am not going to judge these people because they are my friends and family and for the greater part they are very good people indeed.

You are welcome to your personal observations on the drug situation but again i find it an unrealistic one.

Regarding the ethnic cleansing reference i am using it to recognise a certain " social group " as qualified in the Oxford dictionary and hope you will acknowledge this use and not using it as a particular reference to race.

You seem to be contradicting yourself in your various comments while i,m not sure if it,s a communication problem regarding them.

I must say i am not critisising this from a grammar nor anything similar, ( i dislike those no brainers )

but it is a bit confusing the way i am reading it.

I still think you are not up to speed on the reality as a result of this and if you believe there are no big fish connected to the poor north situation as you describe it then i think again you really are far from reality.

As for you comments on the coup i think the are better placed in a related thread, of which their are several running.

If i read of these observations I, along with other posters i,m sure, will offer my comments should i read them in a broader context and differ from mine / others.

I appreciate you being sympathetic to the extra judicial killings by the way.

marshbags

Edited November 19, 2006 by marshbags

[Johpa]

......I must say i am not critisising this from a grammar nor anything similar, ( i dislike those no brainers )

but it is a bit confusing the way i am reading it......

I still think you are not up to speed on the reality as a result of this and if you believe there are no big fish connected to the poor north situation as you describe it then i think again you really are far from reality.

As for you comments on the coup i think the are better placed in a related thread, of which their are several running.

If i read of these observations I, along with other posters i,m sure, will offer my comments should i read them in a broader context and differ from mine / others.

I appreciate you being sympathetic to the extra judicial killings by the way.

marshbags

Marshbags, the only reality that I fear I may be a bit distant from is the rather strange reality that you seem to inhabit. So let us agree to disagree on our perceptions and readings of this particular matter and (you really need to thank me for this one) agree to both back off from any grammatical showdowns.

So as the good Captain use to say: "Smooth sailing and bye bye for now."

[lukamar]

The coming lull after the harvest will be the first scare as people from the rural areas are not busy, and it is yet not clear if organisations such as the Forum of the Poor and the Caravan of the Poor, with support of the Taxi driver's association are getting involved, or stay out.

Happy about decisions such as lowering the rice price they are not, that is clear already.

Yup... It's probably going to be a Long Hot Summer. It's not going to help that farmers in the Chiang Ma area have been told that the water they use to irrigate their several hundred Rai of summer crops is going to be diverted to a keep a flower show green and colorful.

[ColPyat]

I appreciate you being sympathetic to the extra judicial killings by the way.

marshbags

I believe you should read Johpa's post again. He was not sympathetic to extrajudical killings, he simply describes the reality that Thailand had a huge drugproblem, and that because of this, and a tradition here of solving social problems with extrajudical killings, the villagers mostly supported the drug war killings, as it did get drugs out of their reach.

And he brought Thaksin and his vocal opposition into the correct social and historical context with his excellent posts.

[marshbags]

I appreciate you being sympathetic to the extra judicial killings by the way.

marshbags

I believe you should read Johpa's post again. He was not sympathetic to extrajudical killings, he simply describes the reality that Thailand had a huge drugproblem, and that because of this, and a tradition here of solving social problems with extrajudical killings, the villagers mostly supported the drug war killings, as it did get drugs out of their reach.

And he brought Thaksin and his vocal opposition into the correct social and historical context with his excellent posts.

I take Johpa,s comments and i quote :-

I was not particuarly pleased by the extra-judicial murders, but I am not a poor rural Thai. I would never condone these actions. My post was not intended to justify these murders but only to describe how they were perceived by many rural Thai people I have met. From the perspective a a rural Thai, the effort did work.

Unquote

The fact that he states that he is not pleased nor did he intend to justifies the E.J. killings, show he is sensitive to what and how things happened as sympathetic.

In my humble opinion

Without being condescending i appreciate his further comments in his part quote.

As for Thaksins involvement as CEO to gain creditability at the expense of murdering these people without trial or conviction sums up the true qualities of this man ( Thaksin ).

"History " as you mention the word , will judge his 5 years in charge with the infamy of himself and his coherts deserve.

This will be the judgement of his self rewarding social schemes for the poor to further his political standing, the legacy for which events are unfolding along exposing the true motives behind them.

For the record i am not in no way knocking the rural Thai and only wish they had got the benefits in full instead of the local administrators creaming most of it off.

Where i live in the north east the rural poor did not support the events we are debating on the O.P.

and indeed many of their relatives and friends became victims of this vile and indiscriminate murder of the " small fish "

Rural Thai,s are deservedly respected for themselves but they really are being mislead by money politics.

As for the lives of some 2 to 3,000 (officially ) of them and their relatives for a scum like him, this is a truly sad and horrificaly inhuman in costs.

marshbags

[marshbags]

......I must say i am not critisising this from a grammar nor anything similar, ( i dislike those no brainers )

but it is a bit confusing the way i am reading it......

I still think you are not up to speed on the reality as a result of this and if you believe there are no big fish connected to the poor north situation as you describe it then i think again you really are far from reality.

As for you comments on the coup i think the are better placed in a related thread, of which their are several running.

If i read of these observations I, along with other posters i,m sure, will offer my comments should i read them in a broader context and differ from mine / others.

I appreciate you being sympathetic to the extra judicial killings by the way.

marshbags

Marshbags, the only reality that I fear I may be a bit distant from is the rather strange reality that you seem to inhabit. So let us agree to disagree on our perceptions and readings of this particular matter and (you really need to thank me for this one) agree to both back off from any grammatical showdowns.

So as the good Captain use to say: "Smooth sailing and bye bye for now."

Johpa,

I think we both have enough maturity to not have a personal slanging match on our perceptions.

This would not in any case further the the intentions of the O.P. nor sadly help the victims.

The grammar reference was meant to show an understanding for how all T.Visa members have an individual way to put their points across and how they are perceived.

It was not meant to undermine yours, while i find it confusing, the content is the only qualification so long as it can be understood, unfortunately we do not have the same way of, once again perceiving things.

We are all entitled to agree and disagree in debate without being distructive, further develop it while not risking the possibility of having a thread closed down along with providing ammunition for the spoilers who thrive on this negativity.

Especially when important issues / topics are being discussed like Extra Judicial killings and the victims

marshbags

Edited November 19, 2006 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

I appreciate you being sympathetic to the extra judicial killings by the way.

marshbags

I believe you should read Johpa's post again. He was not sympathetic to extrajudical killings, he simply describes the reality that Thailand had a huge drugproblem, and that because of this, and a tradition here of solving social problems with extrajudical killings, the villagers mostly supported the drug war killings, as it did get drugs out of their reach.

And he brought Thaksin and his vocal opposition into the correct social and historical context with his excellent posts.

I take Johpa,s comments and i quote :-

I was not particuarly pleased by the extra-judicial murders, but I am not a poor rural Thai. I would never condone these actions. My post was not intended to justify these murders but only to describe how they were perceived by many rural Thai people I have met. From the perspective a a rural Thai, the effort did work.

Unquote

The fact that he states that he is not pleased nor did he intend to justifies the E.J. killings, show he is sensitive to what and how things happened as sympathetic.

In my humble opinion

Without being condescending i appreciate his further comments in his part quote.

As for Thaksins involvement as CEO to gain creditability at the expense of murdering these people without trial or conviction sums up the true qualities of this man ( Thaksin ).

"History " as you mention the word , will judge his 5 years in charge with the infamy of himself and his coherts deserve.

This will be the judgement of his self rewarding social schemes for the poor to further his political standing, the legacy for which events are unfolding along exposing the true motives behind them.

For the record i am not in no way knocking the rural Thai and only wish they had got the benefits in full instead of the local administrators creaming most of it off.

Where i live in the north east the rural poor did not support the events we are debating on the O.P.

and indeed many of their relatives and friends became victims of this vile and indiscriminate murder of the " small fish "

Rural Thai,s are deservedly respected for themselves but they really are being mislead by money politics.

As for the lives of some 2 to 3,000 (officially ) of them and their relatives for a scum like him, this is a truly sad and horrificaly inhuman in costs.

marshbags

I have had, and still have, many arguments and debates about the drugwar killings with many Thais of many social backgounds. Most people i encounter are unfortunately very supportative about the drugwar killings, in the city and the two villages in the north i know very well.

Regardles my reputation here on this board of being "pro-Thaksin", which i am not, and especially not in the case of the drug war killings, i do have to accept reality.

The opinions i encounter most of the time:

Urban middle class Thaksin supporters mostly refuse to believe that these killings were anything else than inter gang related killings.

Rural and urban poor Thaksin supporters do not see anything wrong with the basic concept of killing drug dealers, as normal procedure of due process was ineffectual. Generally it is a new concept for them when i come up with the argument that if that is so, then maybe the problem is not so much with the drug dealers, but with police and courts that should be cleaned up first.

Reality is that before the killings the drug situation was more than bad, completely out of hand. Something had to be done. Though what was done i cannot support. And yes, i do not agree with the coup either, as i believe that it is a very shortsighted solution to a huge problem, and will in the long run aggrevate the Thai specific social problems.

I do though support the present investigations into the drugwar killings, and hope they will end up in some sort of result. Lets see, but honestly, i don't have very high expectations.

What i believe Johpa said, and what i definately would say, is that blaming Thaksin and his government alone for the drugwar killings is missing the point. Such massacres have a long history of acceptance in Thailand under all sectors of society.

If you go back a few months, in the PAD demonstrations the drugwar killings played only a minor role. Neither Sonthi nor Chamlong saw the drugwar as a reason to protest against Thaksin in 2003, on the opposite - they were very much in line with the policy. At one speach at the Royal Plaza Sonthi has even blasted Thaksin for allowing the drugwar to slack down and having drugs coming back into society as a result.

The blacklist killings were clearly performed by many sectors of the executive, and the blacklists were establsihed by many sectors of society - Pu Yai Bans, local police, Or Bor Dors, and whoever else.

I am there very much in opposition to the majority of Thais i encounter, because i do not support such massacers, and i do not hide my opinion on that either. Sometimes because of that i have even found completely unexpected agreement, even with a few police officers who had to take part in killings against their will, because they were ordered to.

Things are a lot more complex than just evil Thaksin against the good ones, or the ones who were bought/misled by him.

Here you have a society who only very recently had the notion of human rights introduced, which therefore cannot be viewed at along western parameters.

For clarification, that does not mean though that in issues such as the drugwar killings i look for excuses in order to justify them, only for explanations. There is no way that i would condone or justify them. I believe Johpa said the same, in essence.

[sriracha john]

National Human Rights Commissioner Wasant Panich said it was clear that the Thaksin-led government had rushed into the war on drugs and expected the killings to curb the flow of drugs.

On January 14, 2003, Thaksin asked local authorities to draw up lists of suspected drugs dealers.

"But the blacklists were not reliable. Many names should have not been there," Wasant said.

He said the war on drugs then began on February 1 that same year and the government demanded to see clear results within 15 days.

Wasant added that all provincial governors received a circular from the Interior Ministry stating that the number of drug dealers and manufacturers would only be reduced via three scenarios - arrests, extra-judicial killings and death by other causes.

In Samut Sakhon's Ban Phaeo district, people on the blacklist were summoned to report to the authorities otherwise, "your safety cannot be guaranteed".

"We should take action against Thaksin for issuing such a policy, which triggered a wave of murders," Wasant said.

- The Nation

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In all of this mayhem he created, it's imperative that the focus and blame clearly rests primarily with Thaksin.

Wasant is on the right track... which is far better than getting side-tracked with any of the other players involved. Start at the top and work down through the rest of his organizational goons, but first up, is Thaksin.

[Tony Clifton]

Before and after it's launch, he surely made numerous proud speeches about HIS drug war to the media who now have hours and hours of footage, recordings containing irrefutable proof.

[ColPyat]

"But the blacklists were not reliable. Many names should have not been there," Wasant said.

This comment is exactly the reason why i don't hold any hope for a proper drugwar investigation.

Wasant is wrong, it is not that many names should not have been on these unreliable blacklists, it may be a foreign concept to him, but the blacklists should not have been there in the first place, regardless of their correctness.

And nops, this is not just a slip of tongue, but a prevelant feeling under the vast majority of people here, even under many Thaksin opponents.

[sriracha john]

There was nothing wrong with the creation of the blacklists themselves. It is what was done with them at Thaksin's direction that ran afoul of all human decency and rule of law. If they had been used as nothing more than a "suspect list," then they could have been used to investigate those people more thoroughly. That these lists were promulgated and then the people on the list were simply summarily executed, without any further investigation, are what the NHRC and the rest of the civilized world, has a problem with. The term blacklist shouldn't have necessarily meant a death list, but that is how the so-called "police Lt Col" Thaksin decided to interpret its creation. Any nation fighting a drug problem (which would include, uhmm... ALL nations) have a criminal justice system whereby those suspected of involvement in the drug trade are identified and subsequently investigated. They might not all be called a blacklist, but then again... thousands aren't necessarily executed on the streets, either. Thaksin is the one man who distorted a common police practice and turned it into a murdering spree.

Wasant was absolutely correct and should be applauded by all for his efforts.

Edited November 20, 2006 by sriracha john

[marshbags]

Taken from todays Nation :-

Mon, November 20, 2006 : Last updated 5:12 am (Thai local time)

WAR ON DRUGS

Killings return to haunt Thaksin

Bloody campaign was a crime against humanity, rights commissioner says

Ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra and his government should be held to account for the systematic killings of more than 2,500 people during the notorious "war on drugs", National Human Rights Commission chairman Somchai Homla-or said yesterday.

"Thaksin and his government committed crimes against humanity," Somchai said at a seminar.

The seminar focused on the violation of human rights in the many cases that the Thaksin-led government labelled as "silence killings", in which small-scale drug dealers were allegedly being silenced by large-scale dealers.

Somchai yesterday accused Thaksin, former interior minister Wan Muhamad Noor Matha and former permanent secretary for the interior Sermsak Pongpanich of issuing a licence to kill to law enforcement agencies during the war on drugs three years ago.

"Thaksin often reiterated that drug sellers would have only two choices - death or jail," said Somchai.

Unquote:-

For the full article please go to :-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/20...cs_30019414.php

From my observations of developments this subject continues to proceed at a fast and positive pace.

It certainly doesn,t look like it will blow away this time around.

I now hope it will end in accountability with all the international attention it is getting.

May the victims get their justice along with recognition of the innocent verdicts as the ones who where alledgedly guilty of drug crimes where only accused, due to them not being given a chance to defend themselves and where executed in a kill first policy, courtesy of Thaksin. CEO

Compensation is not enough to give them satisfaction as is proposed by some and may they also get the ratification as quoted in the latter part of the above article.

Quote:-

Former senator Kraisak Chonhavan said there was solid evidence of human-rights abuses against Thaksin and his government.

Somchai added that the country should ratify the International Criminal Court, which would be able to take action against Thaksin for the alleged crimes.

"If the ratification takes place, Thaksin won't be able to travel around because he will automatically risk being arrested and tried in the International Criminal Court," he said.

Unquote.............................................................

Karma appears to be going full circle in this important issue and the CEO and his cronies will get what their actions deserve, in this life, as well as the next ???????

This is about human injustice and a seperate issue aside from all the ones relating to money politics and corruption ect. ect. ect.

The difference being that if they are found guilty of this human rights abuse, fines with not get them out of jail, which should of course be big time.

marshbags

Edited November 20, 2006 by marshbags

[Johpa]

Any nation fighting a drug problem (which would include, uhmm... ALL nations) have a criminal justice system whereby those suspected of involvement in the drug trade are identified and subsequently investigated. They might not all be called a blacklist, but then again... thousands aren't necessarily executed on the streets, either. Thaksin is the one man who distorted a common police practice and turned it into a murdering spree.

The issue of the failure to stem the drug trade in Thailand is the refusal and inability of the government to go after the primary players, some of whom over the decades have been high ranking members of the government and society indeed, including high sakdina holders. (I believe one of the tourist sites up at Mae Salong remains the villa of former PM Kriangsak.) The major players, financiers, and bankers in Bangkok are never challenged as they are part and parcel of the Bangkok elite. Thus it was when opium and heroin ruled the roost and thus it remains in the age of meth-amphetamines now that pressure by the US and the DEA has caused the substances to change. To get a better understanding of the larger picture one could read McCoy's opus The Politics of Heroin, just about anything by Achaan Phasuk, but specifically her book Guns, Girls, Gambling, Ganja, and look for more recent articles by Chiang Mai's own Bertril Lintner.

The extra-judicial killings were strictly symptomatic relief, with no pretense of rooting out the cause of the problem. Sort of like taking aspirin for a migraine headache, the symptoms go away for awhile, but the cause of the headache is not targeted. Nobody in the Thai politic wants this cash cow to be sacrificed. But the open selling of drugs to young teenagers in the schools had gotten so out of control in some provinces that I speculate it actually caused the major players in Bangkok to loose face and condone the action lest a public outcry forced them to confront a more serious challenge to their business model.

But now that some have totally misunderstood my personal position on the matter, l might as well take it up another notch for sake of the debate.

The extra-judicial killings, from the perspective of the local villagers, probably saved more lives than were sacrificed. Across the country, if the open drug trade had continued unabated, the death toll from accidents and crimes related to drug use would have certainly been greater than 3,000. And most of those fatalities, specifically traffic victims and victims of domestic violence would have been innocents. Now I know there have been many claims that some of those killed during the extra-judicial killings were not involved in the drug trade, but those individuals that I was told about who were killed were all acknowledged to have been involved. Now I am sure there were some older scores settled, but knowing Thai society, I would imagine that many of those who pleaded that their loved ones were innocent were doing so in order to save some face.