Bringing Thaksin To Account

[marshbags]

Amazing.

You people are so obsessed with Thaskin and past history that you totally miss whats going on at the moment.

There is a military regime in control at the moment and they are proposing to enshrine in law an act that gives them the right to do what they want, when they want under the name of national security.

Wake up and see whats actually happening NOW, rather than debating what happened years ago. If you think Thaksin was a dictator, just wait until the military start running the show behind the scenes of a pseudo democracy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=126253

This thread is about a specific area relating to human rights abuses that where, thanks to Thaksin well documented.

To want justice in this particular scenario is nothing to do with the many other misuses ./ abuses of authority and power that are currently under investigation.

As and if the present authorities along with ( conveniently and foolishly ) being dictitorial enough to openely publicize and prove to be guilty of such offences by doing so, then they will in turn suffer a similar fate.

To openly boast of overseeing and bragging of ridding Thailand of citizens ( guilty or innocent ) for political purposes is beyond comprehension and the only thing it has achieved from his perspective is negative and self inflicted reactions.

The Thai people on the other hand have gained positive and just reactions world wide on his evil dictatorial attitude that was consequently witnessed by all thanks to him.

I will not comment in this thread on my own personal observations relating to the vast amount of investigations that are mounting on a daily basis relating to monetary matters.

You are more than welcome to challenge mine along with those of all other contributors in the various threads, but be pre warned they are many and you will need more than a little time to read and respond to them all.

Nor unless it is relevant will i comment intentionally on the EJK,s so as not to undermine the importance of this human abuse / abuses issue, s.

To put all these under the title of Thaksin bashing is showing disrespect to all the victims and their families who must now suffer for the rest of their lives because of this evil man for whom the word dictitorial is more than just as far as my understanding of the meaning goes.

Do you really hoestly believe he is innocent and unjustly being held accountable for all hat is now going on in the present offences, in your case alledged or otherwise.

Incidently he will have used some of his ill gotten gains to pay and orchestrate last nights unrest and is intent on destroying Thailand and it,s constitutiions.

IMHO as always.

His aim of course is to distract things away from the EJK,s and all the other stuff, discredit the present government and put the militatary in a position whereby they will probably end up having to use force to control the situation.

Once again he is using Thailands citizens as cannon fodder to further his evil objectives.

Thaksin loves Thai is yet another well known delusion that supporters have of his sincerity towards a democratic future

for our childrens / Thailands future

IMHO of course.

marshbags

Edited July 23, 2007 by marshbags

[younghusband]

Amazing.

You people are so obsessed with Thaskin and past history that you totally miss whats going on at the moment.

There is a military regime in control at the moment and they are proposing to enshrine in law an act that gives them the right to do what they want, when they want under the name of national security.

Wake up and see whats actually happening NOW, rather than debating what happened years ago. If you think Thaksin was a dictator, just wait until the military start running the show behind the scenes of a pseudo democracy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=126253

This thread is about a specific area relating to human rights abuses that where, thanks to Thaksin well documented.

To want justice in this particular scenario is nothing to do with the many other misuses ./ abuses of authority and power that are currently under investigation.

As and when if the present authorities along with conveniently / being dictitorial enough to openely publicize and prove to be guilty of such offences then they will in turn suffer a similar fate.

To openly boast of overseeing and bragging of ridding Thailand of citizens ( guilty or innocent ) for political purposes is beyond comprehension and the only thing it has achieved from his perspective is negative and self inflicted reactions.

The Thai people on the other hand have gained positive and just reactions world wide on his evil dictatorial attitude that was consequently witnessed by all thanks to him.

I will not comment in this thread on my own personal observations relating to the vast amount of investigations that are mounting on a daily basis relating to monetary matters.

You are more than welcome to challenge mine along with those of all other contributors in the various threads, but be pre warned they are many and you will need more than a little time to read and respond to them all.

Nor unless it is relevant will i comment intentionally on the EJK,s so as not to undermine the importance of this human abuse / abuses issue, s.

To put all these under the title of Thaksin bashing is showing disrespect to all the victims and their families who must now suffer for the rest of their lives because of this evil man for whom the word dictitorial is more than just as far as my understanding of the meaning goes.

Do you really hoestly believe he is innocent and unjustly being held accountable for all hat is now going on in the present offences, in your case alledged or otherwise.

Incidently he will have used some of his ill gotten gains to pay and orchestrate last nights unrest and is intent on destroying Thailand and it,s constitutiions.

IMHO as always.

His aim of course is to distract things away from the EJK,s and all the other stuff, discredit the present government and put the militatary in a position whereby they will probably end up having to use force to control the situation.

Once again he is using Thailands citizens as cannon fodder to further his evil objectives.

Thaksin loves Thai is yet another well known delusion that supporters have of his sincerity towards a democratic future

for our childrens / Thailands future

IMHO of course.

marshbags

I've always had a soft spot for Marshbanks because of his passion for justice and because he wears his heart on his sleeve.In many ways I share his indignation at the fate of victims who have no-one to speak for them.It's encouraging to hear that Khun Surayud is taking an interest in this episode, but I fear any enquiry will take a deliberately long time to report and in any case will only focus on a few "innocent" victims.

My appeal to Marshbanks is to take a few points into account.

1.Why not mention even occasionally the huge damage and human misery that the drugs trade has brought to many communities in Thailand?However misguided and ineffective the drugs war was an attempt to deal with this problem.

2.Why not accept the policy had the support of most Thais? This is just a reality so why deny it?

3.Why not accept that most victims were involved in the drugs trade?

4.Why not accept that to cast Thaksin as the sole devil, as another poster puts it, hides the shared responsibility of many?

The problem with the obsessive concentration on Thaksin is that truth itself becomes a victim.What's needed if I may so so is not just unfocused indignation but a cool and calm intelligence.Otherwise this discussion like one or two others just becomes a tirade, essentially preaching to the converted.

I have no doubt that everything I say will be politely dismissed, and that before long we will be back in the one track Thaksin obsessive mode.Ah well.

[marshbags]

Amazing.

You people are so obsessed with Thaskin and past history that you totally miss whats going on at the moment.

There is a military regime in control at the moment and they are proposing to enshrine in law an act that gives them the right to do what they want, when they want under the name of national security.

Wake up and see whats actually happening NOW, rather than debating what happened years ago. If you think Thaksin was a dictator, just wait until the military start running the show behind the scenes of a pseudo democracy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=126253

This thread is about a specific area relating to human rights abuses that where, thanks to Thaksin well documented.

To want justice in this particular scenario is nothing to do with the many other misuses ./ abuses of authority and power that are currently under investigation.

As and when if the present authorities along with conveniently / being dictitorial enough to openely publicize and prove to be guilty of such offences then they will in turn suffer a similar fate.

To openly boast of overseeing and bragging of ridding Thailand of citizens ( guilty or innocent ) for political purposes is beyond comprehension and the only thing it has achieved from his perspective is negative and self inflicted reactions.

The Thai people on the other hand have gained positive and just reactions world wide on his evil dictatorial attitude that was consequently witnessed by all thanks to him.

I will not comment in this thread on my own personal observations relating to the vast amount of investigations that are mounting on a daily basis relating to monetary matters.

You are more than welcome to challenge mine along with those of all other contributors in the various threads, but be pre warned they are many and you will need more than a little time to read and respond to them all.

Nor unless it is relevant will i comment intentionally on the EJK,s so as not to undermine the importance of this human abuse / abuses issue, s.

To put all these under the title of Thaksin bashing is showing disrespect to all the victims and their families who must now suffer for the rest of their lives because of this evil man for whom the word dictitorial is more than just as far as my understanding of the meaning goes.

Do you really hoestly believe he is innocent and unjustly being held accountable for all hat is now going on in the present offences, in your case alledged or otherwise.

Incidently he will have used some of his ill gotten gains to pay and orchestrate last nights unrest and is intent on destroying Thailand and it,s constitutiions.

IMHO as always.

His aim of course is to distract things away from the EJK,s and all the other stuff, discredit the present government and put the militatary in a position whereby they will probably end up having to use force to control the situation.

Once again he is using Thailands citizens as cannon fodder to further his evil objectives.

Thaksin loves Thai is yet another well known delusion that supporters have of his sincerity towards a democratic future

for our childrens / Thailands future

IMHO of course.

marshbags

I've always had a soft spot for Marshbanks because of his passion for justice and because he wears his heart on his sleeve.In many ways I share his indignation at the fate of victims who have no-one to speak for them.It's encouraging to hear that Khun Surayud is taking an interest in this episode, but I fear any enquiry will take a deliberately long time to report and in any case will only focus on a few "innocent" victims.

My appeal to Marshbanks is to take a few points into account.

1.Why not mention even occasionally the huge damage and human misery that the drugs trade has brought to many communities in Thailand?However misguided and ineffective the drugs war was an attempt to deal with this problem.

My views on drugs and there effects on society along with the miseries, I personally think they cause are well documented in various threads on this topic.

2.Why not accept the policy had the support of most Thais? This is just a reality so why deny it?

Because in my opinion they did not, and most certainly the majority capable of human feelings, did not agree with the bloodshed that followed.

3.Why not accept that most victims were involved in the drugs trade?

As this cannot be proved, and why ???? It is due sadly to the demise of all the victims and even those that you say were involved

in this evil trade, they did not in most cases deserve to be executed in cold blood.

Rehabilitation and education has been proved in many countries around the world to be very effective.

4.Why not accept that to cast Thaksin as the sole devil, as another poster puts it, hides the shared responsibility of many?

I concur that others share responsibility and he is not the only " DEVIL " but as CEO of the government in power, along with his well documented authoritarianism and the unquestionable enforcing of it, in a much publicized way, as leader of all that occured, then, the blatant selection of exterminating the small time users, AND those totally innocent while protecting the PUYAI is beyong my comprehension.

Let us not forget that many were indeed totally innocent and no more than relatives of the above and yet they also suffered the same cold blooded and deliberate, murderous premature ending of their lives.

The problem with the obsessive concentration on Thaksin is that truth itself becomes a victim.What's needed if I may so so is not just unfocused indignation but a cool and calm intelligence.Otherwise this discussion like one or two others just becomes a tirade, essentially preaching to the converted.

I have no doubt that everything I say will be politely dismissed, and that before long we will be back in the one track Thaksin obsessive mode.Ah well.

Thanks Y.H. for your post and also inviting me to reply.

Your positive thoughts on this subject are also well documented and appreciated and your support and empathising with the families relating to this is well known on this thread.

It does appear to become similar to a tirade but when you consider what the discussion is about, for me this is understandable and our only wish at the end of the day is accountability from the TOP DOWN and in turn bringing to justice the main players in the drug trade along with addressing the implications relating to it all.

marshbags

Edited July 23, 2007 by marshbags

[sriracha john]

Good rebuttal, marshbags, as always.

While certainly many Thais had deep concerns over the drug use that was proliferating in the country and supported actions to curb its influence, I am of the opinion as yourself that that concern certainly didn't extend to wanton murdering of people without due process.

Thaksin's insane declaration in 2004 that drug use had been completely stopped in Thailand is an indication of out of touch he was with reality.

I agree with you that as CEO he must take the brunt of the responsibility the same as he claimed most of the credit for "eliminating" drugs that he boasted about.

[younghusband]

Good rebuttal, marshbags, as always.

While certainly many Thais had deep concerns over the drug use that was proliferating in the country and supported actions to curb its influence, I am of the opinion as yourself that that concern certainly didn't extend to wanton murdering of people without due process.

Thaksin's insane declaration in 2004 that drug use had been completely stopped in Thailand is an indication of out of touch he was with reality.

I agree with you that as CEO he must take the brunt of the responsibility the same as he claimed most of the credit for "eliminating" drugs that he boasted about.

Marshbanks will no doubt speak for himself , but I didn't take his remarks as a "rebuttal" but as a courteous response to a post that was meant to be constructive and find common ground.

In the same spirit, I actually agree with your latter two paragraphs.The first paragraph is however simply wishful thinking on your part I'm afraid.Your obsession with Thaksin has blinded you to the truth that most Thais fully understood what was involved in the drugs war but supported it nonetheless.The more perceptive members who dislike Thaksin as much as you recognise this.None of this detracts from the moral case against Thaksin but intellectual dishonesty even in one particular is corrosive of the broader truth.

Edited July 23, 2007 by younghusband

[sriracha john]

Good rebuttal, marshbags, as always.

While certainly many Thais had deep concerns over the drug use that was proliferating in the country and supported actions to curb its influence, I am of the opinion as yourself that that concern certainly didn't extend to wanton murdering of people without due process.

Thaksin's insane declaration in 2004 that drug use had been completely stopped in Thailand is an indication of out of touch he was with reality.

I agree with you that as CEO he must take the brunt of the responsibility the same as he claimed most of the credit for "eliminating" drugs that he boasted about.

Marshbanks will no doubt speak for himself , but I didn't take his remarks as a "rebuttal" but as a courteous response to a post that was meant to be constructive and find common ground.

In the same spirit, I actually agree with your latter two paragraphs.The first paragraph is however simply wishful thinking on your part I'm afraid.Your obsession with Thaksin has blinded you to the truth that most Thais fully understood what was involved in the drugs war but supported it nonetheless.The more perceptive members who dislike Thaksin as much as you recognise this.None of this detracts from the moral case against Thaksin but intellectual dishonesty even in one particular is corrosive of the broader truth.

Is it wishful thinking? I don't think so as my experiences with Thais once the wholesale murdering began in earnest was that they opposed it. One remark made at that time that sticks out particularly was made by a mother who said that Thaksin's mercenaries were no better than the crazed yaba user with a butcher knife held against the throat of a baby.

What you consider "obsession" is nothing more than a deep-felt concern that he receive the justice that eluded the other dictator I lived under; Marcos.

[quiksilva]

I must agree with younghusband on this point.

Most Thais I spoke to were well aware of what was happening and were all too happy to see Thaksins response to the problem. What I found to be most remarkable about this was that these were educated locals who are usually what one would consider to be kind and generous people.

They just hated the affects of the drug trade on their society that much. Some of these liked Thaksin (for economic reasons more than anything else) but many of which have since re-evaluated their assessment of him, or as is the case with the vast majority I think, were swayed by popular opinion.

[sriracha john]

THAKSIN POLICY UNDER SCRUTINY

Panel to study war on drugs

The Justice Ministry is setting up a special committee to study the Thaksin government's war on drugs and its impact on innocent victims, so that proper financial help can be extended to them and their families. Deputy justice permanent secretary Charnchao Chaiyanukij said the secretary-general of the Office of the Prime Minister sent a letter to the ministry last week instructing it to set up the committee. Mr Charnchao said the ministry had invited former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon to chair the panel. He said the past government should have done more for the victims by offering them or their families fair compensation, along with rehabilitation for those who survived the anti-drugs campaign. Working guidelines have already been drawn up for the committee. The panel will focus on studying in depth the Thaksin Shinawatra government's anti-drugs policy, in which more than 2,500 suspects lost their lives. The committee will look at and take into account related documents before organising forums to gather public views on the matter, particularly about the killings. The panel will not investigate the cases already being handled by the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) and the Royal Thai Police Office. Angkhana Neelaphaijit, chairwoman of the Working Group on Justice for Peace, said she welcomed the government's latest move. However she was sceptical about whether the inquiry would receive any cooperation from law enforcement agencies, particularly police, who were suspected of having a hand in most of the killings. The Thaksin government had set up a committee headed by then deputy attorney-general Praphan Naikowit to look into the drugs-related killings, but none of the cases was solved.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Jul2007_news07.php

[marshbags]

THAKSIN POLICY UNDER SCRUTINY

Panel to study war on drugs

The Justice Ministry is setting up a special committee to study the Thaksin government's war on drugs and its impact on innocent victims, so that proper financial help can be extended to them and their families. Deputy justice permanent secretary Charnchao Chaiyanukij said the secretary-general of the Office of the Prime Minister sent a letter to the ministry last week instructing it to set up the committee. Mr Charnchao said the ministry had invited former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon to chair the panel. He said the past government should have done more for the victims by offering them or their families fair compensation, along with rehabilitation for those who survived the anti-drugs campaign. Working guidelines have already been drawn up for the committee. The panel will focus on studying in depth the Thaksin Shinawatra government's anti-drugs policy, in which more than 2,500 suspects lost their lives. The committee will look at and take into account related documents before organising forums to gather public views on the matter, particularly about the killings. The panel will not investigate the cases already being handled by the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) and the Royal Thai Police Office. Angkhana Neelaphaijit, chairwoman of the Working Group on Justice for Peace, said she welcomed the government's latest move. However she was sceptical about whether the inquiry would receive any cooperation from law enforcement agencies, particularly police, who were suspected of having a hand in most of the killings. The Thaksin government had set up a committee headed by then deputy attorney-general Praphan Naikowit to look into the drugs-related killings, but none of the cases was solved.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Jul2007_news07.php

While we can only hope that compensation is more than just a token payment and relates to the ongoing hardship, especially for the families with young children to support and of course all those who depended on these unfortunate souls.

If it is a meaningful and an amount that relects their needs,

Then,

Along with providing education that is going to secure their futures,

It will allow them to support their elders and families by honest endeavours and encourage / make them an asset to the Thai communities that have at the present time all but destroyed their faith in society and taken their loved ones away from them, it will ease the healing process they all deserve.

I also think it will re encourage the HRW to re engage in dialogue and become more actively involved, while also

Providing additional independant support in getting to the truth and make those responsible truly accountable for these vile and inhuman acts of what after all can only be catergorised as pre meditiated cold blooded murders.

Whoever they may be and irrespective of their status as so called priviliged " PUYAI ", let them know what happened is not acceptable and is a crime against not only Thailand but against ALL humanity.

They bring shame to all those who are the good and great of Thai society that work endlessly to better those who are less privilidged.

These are the true PUYAI, who deserve such a splendid title and, rightly so, are respected by those in less humble surroundings who look up to them and trust their Honest Intentions to care and show them the way.

Not a witch hunt but just an honest investigation to get at the truth and then just maybe those no longer here will be able to find some peace in their eventual place in wherever it is determined we all go.

Only then will they be able to R.I.P.

In my Humble Opinion as always.

marshbags

Edited July 23, 2007 by marshbags

[sriracha john]

Thailand to set up new probe of killings in Thaksin's drugs war

Thailand's government said Monday it was opening a new investigation into ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's "war on drugs," which rights groups say left 2,500 dead in extrajudicial killings.

The Justice Ministry will appoint a 10-person panel to follow up on the findings of an investigation that Thaksin's government had conducted into the killings, senior ministry official Chanchao Chaiyanukij said.

The panel could recommend compensation for victims and their relatives, he said.

"We want to create a better understanding with the international community regarding human rights and justice in Thailand to address the concerns about the war on drugs cases and to prevent a repetition of such an incident," Chanchao said.

"Another top focus of the committee is to suggest compensation to be given to families of the innocent victims and those who survived the anti-drug campaigns," he told AFP.

Former attorney general Khanit na Nakhon has been asked to lead the investigation. The ministry will ask the Cabinet to sign off on the plan in two weeks, Chanchao said.

Human rights groups say that at least 2,500 people were killed in 2003 and 2004 during Thaksin's get-tough campaign against drugs.

Police and security officers were accused of murdering suspected drug dealers, but the Thaksin government's investigation found that security forces were acting in self-defence.

After the military ousted Thaksin in a bloodless coup last September, the new government ordered the elite Department of Special Investigations to look into 10 of the drug war deaths.

That probe is still underway, but the new panel will conduct its own investigation into the other killings, Chanchao said.

- AFP

[Mid]

"Another top focus of the committee is to suggest compensation to be given to families of the innocent victims and those who survived the anti-drug campaigns," he told AFP.

would this be the first official reference to innocent victims ?

[Tony Clifton]

Thailand to set up new probe of killings in Thaksin's drugs war

I must' ve missed the icing part as this is the cherry on the cake.

With talks of compensation for victims families, dead or alive, also a police reform, you can expect the number of victims to be much higher than 2 500. Families will come forward en masse and the timimg will be perfect to get more than enough testimonies for the newly announced probe into the insane drug war. Expect some brown uniforms to flee the country.

There is also plenty of footage available with the media showing Thaksin, fist in hand, incriminating himself (and inflating the ego to 40 psi. ) while making his morale boosting speeches to uniforms and getting his daily dose of limelight.

[marshbags]

With apologies to A.T who has posted the news item relating to Man. City

I,d like to highlight certain parts of the article relating to the H.R. issues.

Taken from the BBC News 24 hours

By Brian Alexander and Simon Austin

Quote

'A Fit and Proper Premiership?'

Five Live Sport, Tuesday 31 July, 2000 to 2100 BST

Thaksin completed his purchase of Manchester City earlier this month

A leading human rights group has written to the Premier League to challenge Thaksin Shinawatra's right to own Manchester City.

Human Rights Watch (HRW) claims Thaksin is "a human rights abuser of the worst kind" and should not have passed the League's 'fit and proper person' test.

Thaksin, the Thai prime minister from 2001 to 2006, denies the allegations.

"Under any definition, I don't see how Thaksin can be fit and proper," HRW's Brad Adams told BBC Sport.

"I've written a letter to the Premier League asking what this test means."

Thaksin's lawyer, Noppadol Pattama, told BBC Sport that the allegations were completely unfounded.

"The civil and human rights charges against him have never been proven," said Noppadol.

"My client deserves to be treated as an innocent man, until proven guilty.

"So far there hasn't been any solid evidence against him."

The Premier League confirmed it has received the letter, but is yet to respond to it.

Amnesty International shares many of HRW's concerns and their spokesperson told BBC Sport: "Thaksin did preside over some very serious human rights violations.

"If the Premier League wants to take any of that into account when making their decisions, we're happy to make our documents available to them."

The allegations against Thaksin are that, during his time as Thai prime minister, he:

Presided over extrajudicial killings during the notorious "war on drugs". HRW says 2,500 people were killed during one three-month period at the start of 2003.

Told the Thai military to employ any means to suppress an insurgency in the south of Thailand.

Thaksin's lawyer, Noppadol, countered: "As far as I am concerned, he (Thaksin) has never instructed any public officer to execute a drug dealer.

We will be able to prove his innocence after the general election when we are sure our client will get a fair trial

"We just tried to solve the drug problem in Thailand by getting tough with criminals. But he has never issued any instructions for shoot-to-kill policies.

"I hope Manchester City fans and British people are fair-minded. They should suspend their judgement before deciding Thaksin is not fit. He is a fit and proper man to run the club."

Unquote

As the rest of the article is not about H. Rights i haven,t posted it but you can go to the URL in the Man City thread courteously provided by A.T.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...5&start=105 ( post 117 )

Thanks for putting it in the Man City thread to compliment the thoughts posted in all the other threads that have highlighted the very issues

Thaksin i feel is about experience the U.K. fall out of these despicable crimes and lets be clear, there is if you will excuse me reminding any doubters enough solid evidence to prove his involvement and overseeing of the EJK,s and the insurgency in the south that the article refers to.

As for all you Man. City supporters who live out here and know about these incidents first hand.

You have failed to condemn him or disassociate yourselves or your club from the evil man and in doing so are in appearance condoning Thaksin and these horrific crimes against Thai,s and Humanity.

You and your club are hopefully about to suffer the Karma you rightly deserve BIG TIME and the shame that he brings to your once proud history.

Infamy is about to be added to this and a truly sorry chapter in the football associations fit and proper standards and duplicated morality in the name of money.

It is no coincidence that the last bit in red is a well known trait of the newly appointed owner of your club.

Finally if you all think you have got away with this just wait until the season starts for one and more importantly the slowly building public awareness of what this Evil Bastard is all about and stands for !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Within The U.K.

As for you silent Man City supporters

Don,t you feel anything for the victims and their families or is it the case that football is more important and taking precedence

marshbags

Still ..... and very

Edited July 31, 2007 by marshbags

[jumnien]

I don't think anyone who genuinely was upset about the possibility of some innocent folks getting caught in the crossfire during the drug war would support the Army in its "investigation". Let's be serious...

[aaaaaa]

"Another top focus of the committee is to suggest compensation to be given to families of the innocent victims and those who survived the anti-drug campaigns," he told AFP.

would this be the first official reference to innocent victims ?

I can't recall if ANY single person was brought to justice after Black October (1973) or Black May (1991).

in '73 Thammasat was fired upon, even shelled, then assaulted by all sorts of paramilitary thugs, female students raped, male sudents brutally slaughtered, those who jumped to the river trying to escape shot... annually in Thammasat and even Ramkanhaeng till this very year the photo excibition is held to commemorate those terrible events. surely most of those who did those killings are still alive - WHY no anything said about bringing them to account?

in '91 there was no less killing. soldiers even shot nurses in some nearby hotel who was treating wounded people - no body said for what? alright, even IF those who were shot during demonstrations are "not innocent" - certainly those nurses were. they even tried to protest those killings, refering to some internationaly accepted rules that nurses are not to be shot during combat, yet in their own country, NOT during the war, they were killed purposely and ruthlessly.

so, all these talks about killing "innocent people" are merely talks. to be fair, they should bring to justice ALL responsible in ever happened killings of innocent people. but I bet it would never happen.

[marshbags]

I don't think anyone who genuinely was upset about the possibility of some innocent folks getting caught in the crossfire during the drug war would support the Army in its "investigation". Let's be serious...

Human Rights Watch are also " investigating " so yes, Let,s get serious because they cannot be accused of political bais or of having a hidden agenda as you seem to be / are implying.

I also reckon that no matter who does the " investigating " the support will apply and is slowly gaining momentum, after all this started long before the present authorities got involved.

How the hel_l can you make a case out of what you are implicating, based on what has been an ongoing concern since way before the present actions ?

marshbags

[jumnien]

I agree with you that Human Rights Watch is probably not supportive of right-wing military coups or their politically motivated "investigations". As for making a case for or against Thaksin, I'm not and I don't think the Army or their lapdogs should be either. I don't think an organization who is known for shooting protesters who are non-violently expressing their views, as the Army has in many past coups, should be expected to be motivated to seek justice. First things first. Get the Army out, re-instate '97 and get on with it. Fighting the Army's fight against Thaksin isn't doing anything for the memory of those who may have died unjustly in the popularly supported drug war.

[pointofview]

It would appear that not all information regarding what is and what is not being pushed for by the leaders of the present government is being publicized as it happens:

CALL TO RE-EXAMINE DRUG WAR KILLINGS

Kraisak Choonhavan, a former Nakhon Ratchasima senator, has urged the Justice Ministry to re-examine the human rights violations which occurred during the rule of ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra. He said the interim government should attach importance to the cases because the United Nations had submitted 26 questions on them to Thai authorities last year. ''More than 2,000 people died in the extra-judicial killings during the war on drugs launched by the Thaksin government in 2003. It was believed that state officials were also involved in many of the deaths,'' said Mr Kraisak after an hour-long meeting with Justice Permanent Secretary Jarun Pukditanakul. Evidence linking some state officials to the extra-judicial killings has also been submitted to the ministry, he said. Mr Kraisak wants the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) to take over the job of investigating these cases, which include the killing of a man in Nakhon Ratchasima province who became rich from winning the first-prize lottery but was subsequently shot dead because his name was on the government's list of drug dealers. A source said Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont last week ordered Kitti Limchaikij, the newly appointed secretary-general of the Office of Narcotics Control Board, to dig into the extra-judicial killings of 2,500 people during the Thaksin government's war on drugs that began in February 2003. The prime minister wants a clearer picture of how many deaths actually involved drug dealers and how many did not, the source said. Mr Surayud also wants to know the exact number of cases in which state officials were implicated, said the source.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/14Nov2006_news12.php

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's a long overdue step in the absolutely right direction to examine one of the worst human rights violations in Thailand's history and committed at Thaksin's direction. Thailand, under Thaksin, never responded to the United Nations inquiry mentioned in the article and even worse, Thaksin never responded to the Thai people, those who were brave enough to ask anyway, these same questions.

May the souls of all those murdered find peace and justice.

You are right and I largely share your outrage on this issue.The problem is that these crimes were fully supported by the power elite that later turned against Thaksin, and there is plenty of evidence to prove this.That's why this line will never get pursued very vigorously.Same goes for the Tak Bai massacre incidentally.

A sad indightment of the world we live in.  the UK government and the MFC board are obviously aware of thaksins charachter - but he is rich

so above the law - as we know it!  I personnaly wrote to the MFC board to point out certain important allagations re. thaksin - but money talks.  

[jumnien]

I think the fact that the military and their coup-loving right wing supporters are indicting Thaksin and not the state officials and military who were involved in the killing speaks volumes. The issue is only being pursued by anyone in Thailand as an anti-Thaksin pro-coup strategic ploy. One day perhaps there will be an elected government that will investigate and prosecute illegal acts involving the drug war killings and the coup. The funny thing is that many in the anti-Thaksin brigade are going to howl when the military cuts a deal for an even bigger share of Thaksin's telecom earnings in exchange for dropping the investigation. Far better to wait to prosecute when there is a semblance of a free press and a hint of democracy. That may be a long, long time; especially if the anti-Thaksin brigade keeps propping up the Army.

[mrbojangles]

As for all you Man. City supporters who live out here and know about these incidents first hand.

You have failed to condemn him or disassociate yourselves or your club from the evil man and in doing so are in appearance condoning Thaksin and these horrific crimes against Thai,s and Humanity.

You and your club are hopefully about to suffer the Karma you rightly deserve BIG TIME and the shame that he brings to your once proud history.

marshbags, under who's authority where you given the right to be Judge, Jury and Executioner?

Allthough i love City, my Karma is fine thank you (read my signature). As i will let the legal system sort it out, that is what it is there for. Your Karma however, should be suffering. YOU are condemning Thaksin, a football club AND it's supporters (including me), because YOU have found Thaksin guilty of crimes.

Well, i for one don't want to be part of your legal system. I prefer a legal system that isn't based on a single person's bias but one that is based on ALL sides getting a fair hearing.

After this, and only after this, will i make my view on him.

Within The U.K.

As for you silent Man City supporters

Don,t you feel anything for the victims and their families or is it the case that football is more important and taking precedence

No, football isn't more important but again, I'll let the legal system sort it.

You insisted on a reply to this thread, as you where saying our silence was condoning him, again YOU and your legal system found us guilty without giving us an hearing. I have given you my view and will not enter into a slanging match.

So if i don't reply again, please don't take my silence as an admission of guilt but more of an admission of not condoning your legal system.

[sriracha john]

Additional information on the contents of the letter from Human Rights Watch:

In a letter to the Premier League the Asia Director of HRW Brad Adams questions how Thaksin could have passed as a "fit and proper person" to purchase the club.

"We believe that an assessment of any prospective team owner should at least include an assessment of the individual's human rights record, his or her record on corporate responsibility, and whether there are credible allegations of corruption or other issues that might call into question whether the person is truly 'fit and proper' for ownership.

"Such criteria should examine the individual's record globally and not just in relation to UK laws."

Adams said that Thaksin's period of office from 2001 - 2006 (when he was ousted in a military coup) was marked by gross human rights violations.

"The most disturbing period of Mr. Thaksin's rule was his 'war on drugs,' in which Thai security forces routinely committed serious violations of human rights. By his government's own count, more than 2,275 people were killed in the three months after the campaign was launched on 1 February, 2003.

"There is little doubt that ... Mr. Thaksin unleashed his security forces in a violent campaign against alleged drug traffickers and sellers."

Adams said that the former PM was equally brutal in addressing the insurgency in Thailand's predominantly ethnic Malay Muslim southern border provinces.

"His heavy-handed counterinsurgency policy, which emphasized the unnecessary or excessive use of force and encouraged grave human rights violations, led to the deaths of hundreds of ethnic Malay Muslims and injuries to many more.

"Based on his record, Mr. Thaksin does not appear to us to be 'fit and proper' under any reasonable definition of that term. His past actions should lead to him being subjected to investigations by impartial police and prosecutors, not welcomed into the club of owners of the most popular football league in the world."

- DPA

[Plus]

Well, i for one don't want to be part of your legal system. I prefer a legal system that isn't based on a single person's bias but one that is based on ALL sides getting a fair hearing.

The fact is that 2,500 people were killed and someone was responsible for it regardless of court decisions.

In this particular case the wheel of justice depends on Thailand's political situation. It's quite possible that the drug war case will never reach the courtroom as there are too many powerful figures involved. I, personally, don't believe that Thaksin's role will ever be seriously investigated at all.

That doesn't make him any less guilty, nor it makes him any more guilty.

>>>>>>>>>>>>

The real question is - why do you need this "fit and proper" test at all? Is it only to present a good face or is it also to ward off any potential disasters for the club and its supporters?

If it's only about a face - it doesn't make EPL look good in the eyes of those who know Thaksin. If it's about preventing troubles - you've been warned. Do you want to give him a second chance? This time it's your team at stake, Thailand won't trust Thaksin anymore, Thais have had enough.

You must be aware that Thais have tried to get rid of the wretched fellow for over a year before the army stepped in and solved the problem. He just wouldn't go away, not even after his attempt at elections collapsed in courts, election commissioners jailed (all pre-coup), and his party dissolved for a massive electoral fraud. He still goes around saying he was "elected".

Will he transform himself in a clean and honest, trouble-free businessman? Take you chances.

Now YOU can have him. Less problems for Thailand.

[Tony Clifton]

Some Premier League big heads are gonna roll.

[sriracha john]

You can add Amnesty International now as another agency questioning City's decisions...

and some very odd comments by City officials in their justifications...

Rights groups oppose Thaksin

Amnesty, HRW ask League how he passed the 'fit and proper' test

Deposed premier Thaksin Shinawatra's controversial takeover of the English Premier League's Manchester City Football Club has led to fresh debate in the United Kingdom after leading international groups yesterday attacked the new club owner over his human-rights record.

The New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) and the London-based Amnesty International separately attacked Thaksin's human-rights record when he was prime minister, and they also questioned the Premier League's decision to allow him to run a football club.

The news dominated the British media yesterday, with the websites of key media outlets running latest developments about the issue throughout the day.

HRW has written to the Premier League questioning why Thaksin was deemed to meet the criteria of its fit-and-proper-person test after buying Manchester City FC.

In response, the League defended its test, BBC Sport reported yesterday.

"We have very clear rules on the ownership of our clubs," a Premier League statement read. "These rules go above and beyond any requirement by company law and are some of the sternest in any UK industry."

The City hierarchy, meanwhile, believes Thaksin is being victimised by a government whose only interest is to pursue a personal vendetta against the only man to win two terms in office through democratic elections, the Manchester Evening News website reported yesterday.

"What seems to have slipped through the minds of some observers of this situation is that Thaksin was the first, and only, prime minister of Thailand to be democratically elected twice," said a senior City official.

"He was then the victim of a coup d'etat by a military junta, which is now actively pursuing anything it possibly can against the man. We have total confidence that any investigation into him will flounder," said the official.

Brad Adams, Asia director of HRW, told The Nation yesterday: "A person who presides over extrajudicial killings, disappearances, arbitrary arrests and attacks on the media is not a fit and proper person by any standard."

"It appears that Thaksin is trying to buy his way into polite society in Britain to cleanse his image and record as a human-rights abuser. The Premier League shouldn't play this game," he said.

In a separate interview with the BBC, he labelled Thaksin as "a human-rights abuser of the worst kind", who should not have passed the League's fit-and-proper person test.

Adams wrote a letter dated July 30 to Richard Scudamore, chief executive of the Premier League, expressing concern that the Premier League considered Thaksin as a "fit and proper person" to purchase the football club.

The letter, seen by The Nation, said that an assessment of any prospective team owner should at least include an assessment of the individual's human-rights records, his or her record on corporate responsibility, and whether there are credible allegations of corruption or other issues that might call into question whether the person is truly 'fit and proper' for ownership.

"Such criteria should examine the individual's record globally and not just in relation to UK laws," the letter said.

The three-page letter cited long-standing research by HRW and other credible organisations which show that during his time in office from 2001 to 2006, Thaksin committed numerous extrajudicial executions,

"disappearances", illegal abductions, arbitrary detentions, torture and other mistreatment of persons in detention, as well as attacks on media freedoms.

Amnesty International shares many of HRW's concerns and their spokesperson told BBC Sport: "Thaksin did preside over some very serious human-rights violations."

Amnesty also outlined several allegations against Thaksin, including extrajudicial killings, a violent crackdown on insurgency in the deep South and suppression of media freedom.

"If the Premier League wants to take any of that into account when making their decisions, we're happy to make our documents available to them."

Thaksin's legal adviser, Noppadon Pattama, yesterday countered the allegations directed at his client.

"As far as I am concerned, he has never instructed any public officer to execute a drug dealer. We just tried to solve the drug problem in Thailand by getting tough with criminals. But he has never issued any instructions for shoot-to-kill policies."

Thai security forces under Thaksin's rule routinely committed serious violations of human rights. More than 2,275 people were killed in the three months after the campaign was launched on February 1, 2003.

HRW also said that Thaksin failed to address seriously the culture of impunity that prevailed in the country during his government. The case of the disappearance of lawyer Somchai Neelaphaijit is a case in point.

Thaksin, according to the letter, was equally brutal in addressing the insurgency in the three border provinces. His preponderance for using heavy-handed counter-insurgency tactics through unnecessary and excessive use of force caused grave human-rights violations which led to hundreds of deaths of ethnic Malay Muslims and injuries to many more.

In all these cases of human-rights violations, Thaksin made no apparent effort to pursue serious investigations to bring those responsible to justice.

In conclusion, the letter said that, based on such records, Thaksin's past actions should be subject to investigation by impartial police and prosecutors, and he should not be welcomed into the elite club of owners in the most popular football league in the world.

- The Nation

[Mid]

Justice Ministry: independent committee to probe 2,500 extrajudicial killings

Wednesday 1 August 2007 05:32:29 PM (GMT+7:00)

BANGKOK, Aug 1 (TNA) – Thailand's Justice Ministry plans to seek the Cabinet's approval of establishing a special committee to investigate the cases of over 2,500 extrajudicial killings during the former government's 'war on drugs' campaign, said minister Charnchai Likitjittha.

MCOT Public Company Limited.

[jumnien]

My Buddha, hello, anyone out there? There's been a military coup - what possibility exists for an independent commission?

[Aussietraveller]

This comment keeps coming up by those that defend Thaksin, that he won 2 elections and was so popular.

Define Democratic Elections????

I have spoken personally with several relatives who state that in both of these elections they were paid money and told who to vote for...

Many people are aware that votes were purchased, yet they keep going on about how popular Thaksin was because he purchased (sorry, won) 2 elections...

[Mid]

there's this story about an Emperor who buys a suit .....................

[jumnien]

Undoubtedly people were paid to vote for Thaksin and paid to vote against Thaksin in the same manner that people who happened to be salaried by the military are required to vote yes regarding the constitution. There seems to an extremely naive minority who believe that the seasoned political parties that ran against Thaksin are incapable of paying for votes.

[Siripon]

I think the fact that the military and their coup-loving right wing supporters are indicting Thaksin and not the state officials and military who were involved in the killing speaks volumes. The issue is only being pursued by anyone in Thailand as an anti-Thaksin pro-coup strategic ploy. One day perhaps there will be an elected government that will investigate and prosecute illegal acts involving the drug war killings and the coup. The funny thing is that many in the anti-Thaksin brigade are going to howl when the military cuts a deal for an even bigger share of Thaksin's telecom earnings in exchange for dropping the investigation. Far better to wait to prosecute when there is a semblance of a free press and a hint of democracy. That may be a long, long time; especially if the anti-Thaksin brigade keeps propping up the Army.

Thaksin frequently boasted he had radically reformed the bureaucratic structure of Thailand, he was the CEO of Thailand, governors reported directly to him, bypassing the cumbersome bureaucracy.

So when 2,500 are killed in mysterious circumstances following fiery speeches by the CEO exhorting the police to use any measures necessary who should accept responsibility? The CEO surely?

Did Thaksin ever say sorry about one of these deaths?

Did he ever say sorry about any of the deaths in the South after he mistakenly called the southern violence ' a case of petty criminals'?

The press, by the way, is a lot freer than you may imagine.