Bringing Thaksin To Account

[ovenman]

By a strange quirk, when I emailed yabapricequote.com about the source of prices, they responded that their prices are derived from an extensive research project being conducted as part of a PhD doctoral thesis by a criminal justice student at the second best university in Thailand who has interviewed hundreds of contacts in all 76 provinces. Very impressive.

They did, however, go on to elaborate that none of the research was conducted under the influence of the subject matter being investigated as they felt that would ruin their credibility.

Did they also manage to compile any information on gangs of machete-wielding, AK47-toting thugs, roving the wilds of Samut Prakan?

[ColPyat]

These same old ad hominem attacks get a bit boring.

Don't you people have nothing to contribute to the topic other than playing kindergarden?

[sriracha john]

By a strange quirk, when I emailed yabapricequote.com about the source of prices, they responded that their prices are derived from an extensive research project being conducted as part of a PhD doctoral thesis by a criminal justice student at the second best university in Thailand who has interviewed hundreds of contacts in all 76 provinces. Very impressive.

They did, however, go on to elaborate that none of the research was conducted under the influence of the subject matter being investigated as they felt that would ruin their credibility.

Did they also manage to compile any information on gangs of machete-wielding, AK47-toting thugs, roving the wilds of Samut Prakan?

They were going to, but then a more pressing project came up regarding how a new all-foreigner-staffed volunteer ambulance organization was pushing all the other ambulance organizations out of BKK.

[ovenman]

Don't you people have nothing to contribute to the topic other than playing kindergarden?

Since I don't appear to have any unpublished studies that I can quote laying about the house anywhere, the answer to that question would have to be no.

[ColPyat]

Don't you people have nothing to contribute to the topic other than playing kindergarden?

Since I don't appear to have any unpublished studies that I can quote laying about the house anywhere, the answer to that question would have to be no.

Nobody hinders you from going to Klong Toey slum, speak with dealers and addicts, and compile your own numbers.

[ovenman]

Don't you people have nothing to contribute to the topic other than playing kindergarden?

Since I don't appear to have any unpublished studies that I can quote laying about the house anywhere, the answer to that question would have to be no.

Nobody hinders you from going to Klong Toey slum, speak with dealers and addicts, and compile your own numbers.

Or I could just pretend I did and make up some numbers to quote. Anybody can be anything on the Internet, or so I've heard.

[ColPyat]

Or I could just pretend I did and make up some numbers to quote. Anybody can be anything on the Internet, or so I've heard.

Entirely true.

Now, then, why don't you take the chance, go where i said you could, and find out if i made up the numbers, or not. I guess that would be a lot more useful than just speculating on me being truthful or not here in this place, and bore to death with this childish piss contest the rest of the posters who would prefer to discuss the thread topic 'Bringing Thaksin To Account'.

[sriracha john]

Credibility is never an issue worth discussing.

[ovenman]

Credibility is never an issue worth discussing.

Doing so could lead to an ad hominem attack, which is never desirable .

Edited December 17, 2006 by ovenman

[JacknDanny]

By a strange quirk, when I emailed yabapricequote.com about the source of prices, they responded that their prices are derived from an extensive research project being conducted as part of a PhD doctoral thesis by a criminal justice student at the second best university in Thailand who has interviewed hundreds of contacts in all 76 provinces. Very impressive.

They did, however, go on to elaborate that none of the research was conducted under the influence of the subject matter being investigated as they felt that would ruin their credibility.

The best yet

[Grover]

Colpyat, who's paying you to stir the shit bucket? Khun Newin of Buriram and TRT fame? You deserve one another............

He in it for da love, not da money.

They say long distance relationships don't work, but Colpyat has proven us all wrong time and time again.

[Grover]

By a strange quirk, when I emailed yabapricequote.com about the source of prices, they responded that their prices are derived from an extensive research project being conducted as part of a PhD doctoral thesis by a criminal justice student at the second best university in Thailand who has interviewed hundreds of contacts in all 76 provinces. Very impressive.

They did, however, go on to elaborate that none of the research was conducted under the influence of the subject matter being investigated as they felt that would ruin their credibility.

[hammered]

Why all the debate on the price and availability of drugs? It seems we are moving more into a debate on whether the war on drugs was a success or not. The next step will be to say it was justifed. To my mind this is getting bizarre. The fact is, thousands of people were killed in the war, and all those killed were innocent because they were never tried. What happened is not only disgusting but also a gross breach of human rights. How it affected the price or availability of drugs is irrelevent. Those involved should be tried. Unlike those that were killed the people involved in this massacre will if there is evidence get trial.

[pete_r]

Why all the debate on the price and availability of drugs? It seems we are moving more into a debate on whether the war on drugs was a success or not. The next step will be to say it was justifed. To my mind this is getting bizarre. The fact is, thousands of people were killed in the war, and all those killed were innocent because they were never tried. What happened is not only disgusting but also a gross breach of human rights. How it affected the price or availability of drugs is irrelevent. Those involved should be tried. Unlike those that were killed the people involved in this massacre will if there is evidence get trial.

Good summary, although I would say that price and availability of drugs are relevant to the millions of parents who have to worry about the activities of their children/teenagers.

So, if there is agreement that the killings during the war on drug were a breach of human rights, and that those involved should be tried (I agree), maybe we could move the debate to what happens next? The investigation committee set up by the government will gather evidence, and then... What will happen to the people who organized the extra-judicial murders? And what could/will be be done to prevent a similar crisis from happening again?

[ilyushin]

Like to see a criminal charge stick to Doc Tox on the Drug War.

[hammered]

Why all the debate on the price and availability of drugs? It seems we are moving more into a debate on whether the war on drugs was a success or not. The next step will be to say it was justifed. To my mind this is getting bizarre. The fact is, thousands of people were killed in the war, and all those killed were innocent because they were never tried. What happened is not only disgusting but also a gross breach of human rights. How it affected the price or availability of drugs is irrelevent. Those involved should be tried. Unlike those that were killed the people involved in this massacre will if there is evidence get trial.

Good summary, although I would say that price and availability of drugs are relevant to the millions of parents who have to worry about the activities of their children/teenagers.

So, if there is agreement that the killings during the war on drug were a breach of human rights, and that those involved should be tried (I agree), maybe we could move the debate to what happens next? The investigation committee set up by the government will gather evidence, and then... What will happen to the people who organized the extra-judicial murders? And what could/will be be done to prevent a similar crisis from happening again?

Hopefully after the investigation panels gather evidence relevent charges can be brought against those involved and court cases will commence. Of course there are some problems associated with this. The involvement of the police as the investigating body and as a major source of those allegedly involved probably should preclude them from a major role in the investigations. However, will this happen? If they are precluded who will do the investigation leg work? Hopefully, political considerations will also be left aside when making decisions on the cases. The invovlement of probably the most powerful political figure Thailand has ever known will also make it difficult to ignore these considerations.

On your final point if, and it may be a big if and certainly a first in Thailand, some big names and maybe very big names are jailed for their roles in the deaths then surely that will have an effect on future generations of politicians and officials as it will send out a strong and unprecedented message. If however, the time honored tradition of not dealing with the big fish and just finding guilty a few token low level officials is adhered too, then there will certainly remain a chance of such a crisis happening again given the right(wrong) set of circumstances combined again with another (or the same) set of politicians who do not really care for the rule of law. That is why it is so important for the big ones behind the deaths to be brought to justice. No doubt doing this will be difficult, but we should hope.

[blaze]

If Taksin is personally charged with inciting the deaths, would any court have the courage to find him innocent? Remember that human rights violations was one of the justifications for the coup. (Though, not, as I recall, in the original set of justifications). To say that Taksin was NOT guilty would mean that that particular justification no longer held water. And I don't think this fact will be lost on the citizenry- or the international community (ok- who cares). Among the citizenry, for those who believe that justice will have been served with a guilty verdict, the message will be, make damned sure you have a government that supports the decision to prosecute your enemies. At any cost. For those who believe it will be a kangaroo court situation, the message will be--- exactly the same.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's not enough that justice be served, but justice must be seen to be served. And for that reason would it not be smarter to postpone prosectution till an elected government is in place? Until the promised checks and balances and mechanisms to ensure judicial independence have been constitutionally implemented.

I can not see how, under the current situation, a verdict will not be regarded as political, even by those who agree with the verdict.

[Plus]

The matter is far far away from courts, especialy Thai courts. Thai legal system is not designed to deal with human rights offences. Thai courts would need a clear evidence linking Thaksin with murders - signed papers, witnesses, fingerprints - which do not exist.

On the other hand if Thais manage to bring the case to the International Court in Hague, chances are he'll be convicted, eventually. In that case the verdict itself is not as important as having a trial. It will surely end Thaksin's dreams of comeback and it will raise the awareness of human rights violations at home and Thais would want to raise their own standards.

Problem is Thailand is not a signature to Iinternatinal Court convention. It could easily ratify it under current government but the Foreign Minitry seems to be as retarded as under Thaksin - consider Burmese overtures and Hmong treatment.

Unless there's a serious shake up there, nothing will happen legally.

[blaze]

I agree with much of what you say- though I suspect that incitement to commit murder could be handled by a Thai court.

"It will surely end Thaksin's dreams of comeback and it will raise the awareness of human rights violations at home and Thais would want to raise their own standards."

Whether or not "it" (a trial, international or local) "ends Thaksin's dreams of comeback" should not, in the context of this case, be an issue at all. And as long as it is, or equally important, is seen to be, an issue, there is no way that a Thai court can even dream of touching this. If those demanding 'justice' about the killings are deemed as wanting not only that Thais improve their record on human rights, but ALSO to ensure that Taksin never again plays politics, then the whole case is warped. Politicized. No?

[Plus]

I thought it was you who mentioned human rights violations as a reason for the coup. Nevermind, but I'm sure the drug war itself was never going to be the reason.

Though at the moment the government is pressured from all sides to come up with some concrete results and indictments, the general lack of interest in the drug war is possibly a good thing to keep it from being overly politicised. Another good thing is that the investigations are not pushed by the government itself but by human rights lawyers.

Unfortunately any movement against Thaksin will nor be viewed as politically neutral for a long time.

[blaze]

Yes I think it will be a long time. At least until the public is satisfied that courts do not make decisions affecting big people according to the direction the wind is blowing.

I expect the biggest pressure that the junta is facing is from itself. They now have to justify this coup- not just to the people- but to history- which might not mean much to a lot of us, but means a lot to military people. Given that military coups in this country, like most, are not accorded a lot of respect by history.

It was a given that Taksin broke laws- every body 'knew' it. And to satisfy the public and history that any actions taken against him are not simply 'victor's justice', a smoking gun is going to have to be produced. And so far- even in the tax cases, there's a lot of something that smells like smoke- but might just be hot air.

They are all too aware that within a short time, little Somchai is going to be asking mommy, "Why if this Taksin person was so bad that the army had to kick him out, didn't they put him in jail?". And mommy's going to have to say, "Well dear, you'll have to ask the generals".

I doubt that's the legacy these guys want.

I don't say this with any satisfaction Plus, but I think they have caught themselves between a rock and a hard place.

But I may be wrong. This is Thailand and I just can't figger the damned place out at all.

[Old Man River]

It was a given that Taksin broke laws- every body 'knew' it. And to satisfy the public and history that any actions taken against him are not simply 'victor's justice', a smoking gun is going to have to be produced. And so far- even in the tax cases, there's a lot of something that smells like smoke- but might just be hot air.

Several people on TV in the past have said that Dr. Thaksin is not intelligent. I have always said that he is brilliant and that is what makes him so dangerous. Dr. Thaksin really didn't break that many laws. He either used the laws that were on the books for his personal gains (not what you would want from a PM), or if needed, changed the laws to suit his needs and then followed the new ones. This is why pinning his wrongdoings down is proving so difficult.

[hammered]

Yes I think it will be a long time. At least until the public is satisfied that courts do not make decisions affecting big people according to the direction the wind is blowing.

I expect the biggest pressure that the junta is facing is from itself. They now have to justify this coup- not just to the people- but to history- which might not mean much to a lot of us, but means a lot to military people. Given that military coups in this country, like most, are not accorded a lot of respect by history.

It was a given that Taksin broke laws- every body 'knew' it. And to satisfy the public and history that any actions taken against him are not simply 'victor's justice', a smoking gun is going to have to be produced. And so far- even in the tax cases, there's a lot of something that smells like smoke- but might just be hot air.

They are all too aware that within a short time, little Somchai is going to be asking mommy, "Why if this Taksin person was so bad that the army had to kick him out, didn't they put him in jail?". And mommy's going to have to say, "Well dear, you'll have to ask the generals".

I doubt that's the legacy these guys want.

I don't say this with any satisfaction Plus, but I think they have caught themselves between a rock and a hard place.

But I may be wrong. This is Thailand and I just can't figger the damned place out at all.

In the past those overthrown have been allowed to more or less walk free. This tradition will also be difficult to overcome. It has so often been seen as well we all know they did wrong but they are important people and so well they never get jailed or anything. The people are also used to this. The difference this time may be that the middle clas that clamors for justice is a lot bigger albeit still a small group of society, and that Mr. Thaksin if not ruined by criminal cases my well give it the big well I wasnt guilty of anything and even the coupists couldnt find the dirt on me. A difficult situation all round. As someone mentioned ratifying the ICC would be a smart way of giving Mr. Thaksin a big headache without having to worry about Thai courts and accusations of political skullduggery. Another option is the age old behind closed doors deal, and even if the authorities find evidence that could convict a behind closed doors deal could be worked out to not prosecute but remove Mr. Thaksin from a comeback forever. It is an interesting time to be an observer of Thai politics although living here it could be risky too.

[Old Man River]

In the past those overthrown have been allowed to more or less walk free. This tradition will also be difficult to overcome. It has so often been seen as well we all know they did wrong but they are important people and so well they never get jailed or anything. The people are also used to this. The difference this time may be that the middle clas that clamors for justice is a lot bigger albeit still a small group of society, and that Mr. Thaksin if not ruined by criminal cases my well give it the big well I wasnt guilty of anything and even the coupists couldnt find the dirt on me. A difficult situation all round. As someone mentioned ratifying the ICC would be a smart way of giving Mr. Thaksin a big headache without having to worry about Thai courts and accusations of political skullduggery. Another option is the age old behind closed doors deal, and even if the authorities find evidence that could convict a behind closed doors deal could be worked out to not prosecute but remove Mr. Thaksin from a comeback forever. It is an interesting time to be an observer of Thai politics although living here it could be risky too.

While throwing the human rights issues over to the ICC may be a good strategy, I will be shocked if this happens. As you are aware, Thai's don't like to bring outsiders into their internal affairs. As far as the CNS is concerned, their main goal is to ensure that the former PM never enters politics again. It would have been nice if national reconciliation was such that the people wouldn't accept him back into politics, but failing this, with ISOC in place it becomes a moot point anyway. ISOC is their safety net. Having the constitution drawn up to their satisfaction just adds another layer of comfort.

[Tony Clifton]

It was a given that Taksin broke laws- every body 'knew' it. And to satisfy the public and history that any actions taken against him are not simply 'victor's justice', a smoking gun is going to have to be produced. And so far- even in the tax cases, there's a lot of something that smells like smoke- but might just be hot air.

Several people on TV in the past have said that Dr. Thaksin is not intelligent. I have always said that he is brilliant and that is what makes him so dangerous. Dr. Thaksin really didn't break that many laws. He either used the laws that were on the books for his personal gains (not what you would want from a PM), or if needed, changed the laws to suit his needs and then followed the new ones. This is why pinning his wrongdoings down is proving so difficult.

He is not as intelligent as many would think, although he was brilliant at surrounding himself with the right team to break the rules, just like a successful mafia boss would do to carry on his business. Unfortunately, for both, they only last a while and eventually get pinched when greed and an over-inflated ego cause them to make fatal mistakes.

Edited December 19, 2006 by Tony Clifton

[Old Man River]

It was a given that Taksin broke laws- every body 'knew' it. And to satisfy the public and history that any actions taken against him are not simply 'victor's justice', a smoking gun is going to have to be produced. And so far- even in the tax cases, there's a lot of something that smells like smoke- but might just be hot air.

Several people on TV in the past have said that Dr. Thaksin is not intelligent. I have always said that he is brilliant and that is what makes him so dangerous. Dr. Thaksin really didn't break that many laws. He either used the laws that were on the books for his personal gains (not what you would want from a PM), or if needed, changed the laws to suit his needs and then followed the new ones. This is why pinning his wrongdoings down is proving so difficult.

He is not as intelligent as many would think, although he was brilliant at surrounding himself with the right team to break the rules, just like a successful mafia boss would do to carry on his business. Unfortunately, for both, they only last a while and eventually get pinched when greed and an over-inflated ego cause them to make fatal mistakes.

I really don't want to argue how smart he is or isn't, but it is a good lesson that no matter how smart you are, greed will ruin you.

[Tony Clifton]

Same here Old Man River.

[Jai Dee]

From today's Nation.

[Plus]

Actually it won't be the Thai government that would bring the case to ICC, so the normal logic does not apply. Human rights activists have managed to bring missing lawyer case to the UN and no one objected.

It will be a miracle if Thailand ratifies the ICC.

[sriracha john]

DSI teams to probe 'drug war' deaths

The Department of Special Investigation (DSI) is going to establish four teams to investigate four cases of murder and the disappearance of a woman during the Thaksin government's notorious "War on Drugs".

"The teams will mainly be made up of civil servants or military officers due to public suspicion that police might have been involved in these cases," DSI deputy director general Tharit Pengdit said yesterday.

He said each team would be composed of between six and 10 members.

Earlier this month, the DSI agreed to take charge of four murder cases involving six deaths and the disappearance of a woman.

Tharit said ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra's speeches about his policy to launch a war on drugs would also be included in the investigative report.

Human-rights activists have blamed Thaksin for spurring the spate of killings during the war on drugs.

- The Nation

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