Bringing Thaksin To Account

[A_Traveller]

Vaguely on topic

From Bangkok Post 'breaking news'

Former attorney general Kanit Na Nakhon has agreed to chair a special committee to investigate some 2,500 extra-judicial killings carried out during former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's 'war on drugs campaign', Justice Minister Charnchai Likhitjittha said Friday.

Mr. Charnchai added that he already signed a proposal to be submitted for Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont for consideration.

Also reference to providing data to the 'international community'.

Regards

[Tony Clifton]

How did that Led Zeppelin song go again?

[ Chorus ]

Your Time Is Gonna Come [ X4 ]

[hammered]

I think the fact that the military and their coup-loving right wing supporters are indicting Thaksin and not the state officials and military who were involved in the killing speaks volumes. The issue is only being pursued by anyone in Thailand as an anti-Thaksin pro-coup strategic ploy. One day perhaps there will be an elected government that will investigate and prosecute illegal acts involving the drug war killings and the coup. The funny thing is that many in the anti-Thaksin brigade are going to howl when the military cuts a deal for an even bigger share of Thaksin's telecom earnings in exchange for dropping the investigation. Far better to wait to prosecute when there is a semblance of a free press and a hint of democracy. That may be a long, long time; especially if the anti-Thaksin brigade keeps propping up the Army.

Thaksin frequently boasted he had radically reformed the bureaucratic structure of Thailand, he was the CEO of Thailand, governors reported directly to him, bypassing the cumbersome bureaucracy.

So when 2,500 are killed in mysterious circumstances following fiery speeches by the CEO exhorting the police to use any measures necessary who should accept responsibility? The CEO surely?

Did Thaksin ever say sorry about one of these deaths?

Did he ever say sorry about any of the deaths in the South after he mistakenly called the southern violence ' a case of petty criminals'?

The press, by the way, is a lot freer than you may imagine.

people don't usually say "sorry" during time of war. this is the way it is. if you start saying you are sorry during time of war, you will lose. the muslim terrorist down south have "murdered" thousands, and I don't see anyone asking them to say sorry. when you think about it, for all we know, maybe you are one of those muslim terrorist using the media to win the war.

There is a difference between a war and dealing with crime. The so-called drug war was not actually a declared war it was an abuse of the system of due process in dealing with what was alleged criminal activity. The importnace of due process is seen in that anyone is innocent until proven guilty. Around 2500 people were killed without acess to this. That it may have included, but by no means been restricted to, drug dealers and driug addicts is besides the point. They should still have their day in court just as Mr. T is entitled to his on the charges against him. A government apologising for deaths is neither nothing new or something that should not be expected.

As for the south. That complicated situation will only ever be solved by negotiation, which menas talks between authorities and terrorists. This is shown by history. Militarily these kind of conflicts are unwinable. The oft cited example of the British in Malaya as being a military victory even ignores the political and economic carrots offered to rebel groups during negotiations. If negotiation is going to be the only way ahead then apologising does make sense (as part of an overall package), or at least more sense than just using an iron fisted military approach doomed to the inevitable failure seen in so-called anti-insurgency campaigns worldwide in the previous 4 or 5 decades.

[Siripon]

I think the fact that the military and their coup-loving right wing supporters are indicting Thaksin and not the state officials and military who were involved in the killing speaks volumes. The issue is only being pursued by anyone in Thailand as an anti-Thaksin pro-coup strategic ploy. One day perhaps there will be an elected government that will investigate and prosecute illegal acts involving the drug war killings and the coup. The funny thing is that many in the anti-Thaksin brigade are going to howl when the military cuts a deal for an even bigger share of Thaksin's telecom earnings in exchange for dropping the investigation. Far better to wait to prosecute when there is a semblance of a free press and a hint of democracy. That may be a long, long time; especially if the anti-Thaksin brigade keeps propping up the Army.

Thaksin frequently boasted he had radically reformed the bureaucratic structure of Thailand, he was the CEO of Thailand, governors reported directly to him, bypassing the cumbersome bureaucracy.

So when 2,500 are killed in mysterious circumstances following fiery speeches by the CEO exhorting the police to use any measures necessary who should accept responsibility? The CEO surely?

Did Thaksin ever say sorry about one of these deaths?

Did he ever say sorry about any of the deaths in the South after he mistakenly called the southern violence ' a case of petty criminals'?

The press, by the way, is a lot freer than you may imagine.

people don't usually say "sorry" during time of war. this is the way it is. if you start saying you are sorry during time of war, you will lose. the muslim terrorist down south have "murdered" thousands, and I don't see anyone asking them to say sorry. when you think about it, for all we know, maybe you are one of those muslim terrorist using the media to win the war.

You seem to have completely misunderstood my post, my reference to the south implies Thaksin should have apologised to the victims of violence in the south of which the majority have been at the hands of separatists\terrorists\murderers.

His grave mistake, which he hasn't the guts to apologise to the Thai public for, was in totally underestimating the threat by dismissing them as nothing but petty criminals.

He even said the army guards shot dead on the raid on the army camp in January 2004 deserved to die.

[Mid]

Sidelines: Thaksin finds less space to move around in the world

Published on August 5, 2007

Beaming from his Gulfstream private jet with a young pop singer at his side for private pleasure, and away from other pressure, Thaksin Shinawatra seemed to be having a really good time despite his groaning and moaning about the hardship of being away from his wife and children.

snip

What's more? Human-rights groups here and abroad are demanding that the extrajudicial killings in Thaksin's dirty war against drug dealers must be actively probed. This is because it was not just the 2,500 people who were reported killed; the actual figure according to police sources was close to 8,000, if not more.

snip

Sopon Onkgara

nationmultimedia.com

Edited August 4, 2007 by Mid

[wintermute]

They're going to have a hard time pinning all those extrajudicial executions on him alone when there are quite a few coup members who were involved as well. Maybe that's why the junta hasn't made a bigger stink over that I think a lot of official hands are dirty. Thaksin certainly didn't run around by himself putting a bullet in everyone's head.

[Tony Clifton]

They're going to have a hard time pinning all those extrajudicial executions on him alone when there are quite a few coup members who were involved as well. Maybe that's why the junta hasn't made a bigger stink over that I think a lot of official hands are dirty. Thaksin certainly didn't run around by himself putting a bullet in everyone's head.

1- I believe Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin did by not intervening and allowing the massacre to go on, twice. He was aware of it both times.

2- There is plenty of footage with the media where he (The CEO) is incriminating himself with motivating speeches, etc.

3- Then he went and stupidly declared Thailand drug-free!

I can't remember if that was before or after he also declared Thailand free of avian flu, H5N1.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[wintermute]

1- I believe Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin did by not intervening and allowing the massacre to go on, twice. He was aware of it both times.

2- There is plenty of footage with the media where he (The CEO) is incriminating himself with motivating speeches, etc.

3- Then he went and stupidly declared Thailand drug-free!

I can't remember if that was before or after he also declared Thailand free of avian flu, H5N1.

All those points are fairly moot. Politicians are rarely responsible for their subordinates actions. Even if Thaksin was the motivating factor, and i'm not denying that he wasn't, the evidence for pinning it all on him is still very flimsy. I still strongly believe this was a government action by a consortium of officials who were all on the same page. When it was going on you didn't see any real dissent from within the ranks of the government. Actually, most of the controversy was covered up quite nicely with outside media doing most of the investigating.

Besides just blaming Thaksin is very short sighted. There were serious breaches of human rights that occurred and a lot more people in positions of authority are responsible.

[hammered]

1- I believe Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin did by not intervening and allowing the massacre to go on, twice. He was aware of it both times.

2- There is plenty of footage with the media where he (The CEO) is incriminating himself with motivating speeches, etc.

3- Then he went and stupidly declared Thailand drug-free!

I can't remember if that was before or after he also declared Thailand free of avian flu, H5N1.

All those points are fairly moot. Politicians are rarely responsible for their subordinates actions. Even if Thaksin was the motivating factor, and i'm not denying that he wasn't, the evidence for pinning it all on him is still very flimsy. I still strongly believe this was a government action by a consortium of officials who were all on the same page. When it was going on you didn't see any real dissent from within the ranks of the government. Actually, most of the controversy was covered up quite nicely with outside media doing most of the investigating.

Besides just blaming Thaksin is very short sighted. There were serious breaches of human rights that occurred and a lot more people in positions of authority are responsible.

Lets see what the inquiry comes up with. The initial statement that people from lowly officials up to powerful ones were involved seems a good start. The pressure is also on from international groups, and by buying man City M. T has made sure this will be a headline issue for some time. Personally I doubt that there will be lots of imprisonments but on the other hand the police are currently in a position of weakness and it is there that many of the offenders are to be found rather than in the army which had little to do with the drug war. As to the number who really knows but it can be assumed that it is in the thousands from what we hear from a wide variety of sources. Few have tried to make an arguement that the number was lower, and certainly nobody who can be described as politcally neutral has.

[marshbags]

B.Post General news Tuesday August 07, 2007

Quote

Not too late for justice

Some might say that the latest attempt to look into the apparent abuses of ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra's ''war on drugs'' is many months late and a dollop short. On the contrary, an examination of that black period in law enforcement must be welcomed. From the few facts that are so far known, the campaign resulted in 2,598 deaths. Even the surface investigations have shown that some of those killed were innocent people, with no connection to drugs. Disturbing allegations indicate a wide campaign of extra-judicial murders, with strong encouragement that reached to the top of the Thai government at the time, meaning then-prime minister Mr Thaksin.

Former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon hopes to lead an investigation into that anti-drug battle. The key description of the commission he hopes to organise is ''independent''.

Thus far, free-lance attempts by civil society and the media to discover the facts behind the 90-day war on drugs have fallen woefully short. The police, to no one's surprise, have either concluded that nothing happened, or that more investigation is necessary.

Unquote

Please go to the following for the complete article:-

Ref. url

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/07Aug2007_news17.php

marshbags

Edited August 7, 2007 by marshbags

[marshbags]

B.Post General news Tuesday August 07, 2007

Quote

Not too late for justice

Some might say that the latest attempt to look into the apparent abuses of ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra's ''war on drugs'' is many months late and a dollop short. On the contrary, an examination of that black period in law enforcement must be welcomed. From the few facts that are so far known, the campaign resulted in 2,598 deaths. Even the surface investigations have shown that some of those killed were innocent people, with no connection to drugs. Disturbing allegations indicate a wide campaign of extra-judicial murders, with strong encouragement that reached to the top of the Thai government at the time, meaning then-prime minister Mr Thaksin.

While we must accept some are guilty of drug related offences, to quote certain Thaksin defenders, along with his rent a mouth lawyer "NO PANADOL " who keep mentioning the words " DUE PROCESS OF LAW " all the EJK,s where sadly,...to their costs,.... not given the option!!!!!!

Former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon hopes to lead an investigation into that anti-drug battle. The key description of the commission he hopes to organise is ''independent''.

Thus far, free-lance attempts by civil society and the media to discover the facts behind the 90-day war on drugs have fallen woefully short. The police, to no one's surprise, have either concluded that nothing happened, or that more investigation is necessary.

Unquote

Please go to the following for the complete article:-

Ref. url

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/07Aug2007_news17.php

marshbags

[sriracha john]

The delay into its investigation is explained well ... that is, until the delayer was removed in the coup 2-plus years later after the event...

The Thaksin government supposedly investigated itself. That probe was a laughing stock of government scrutinies. Mr Thaksin, who set up the campaign against drugs and praised it while it was under way even as killings mounted, was never going to allow a meaningful investigation. To this day, Mr Thaksin seems astounded that anyone cares. Last week, he denied there were any human rights abuses at any time that he was premier.

[hammered]

Launching this inquiry is imho the best thing that this government have done. The biggest breach of human rights in Thailand in a few decades deserves investigation. Lets now hope that there is no interference in the inquiry by the politicians or anyone else.

[Tony Clifton]

Launching this inquiry is imho the best thing that this government have done. The biggest breach of human rights in Thailand in a few decades deserves investigation. Lets now hope that there is no interference in the inquiry by the politicians or anyone else.

Unfortunately, there will be interference from the police then involved.

There will be missing evidence, missing investigation reports, missing testimonies, missing witnesses, etc. The inquiry will find nothing but a total mess when it begins. Heads will roll, many heads.

[hammered]

Launching this inquiry is imho the best thing that this government have done. The biggest breach of human rights in Thailand in a few decades deserves investigation. Lets now hope that there is no interference in the inquiry by the politicians or anyone else.

Unfortunately, there will be interference from the police then involved.

There will be missing evidence, missing investigation reports, missing testimonies, missing witnesses, etc. The inquiry will find nothing but a total mess when it begins. Heads will roll, many heads.

I wouldnt doubt much evidence has disappeared already just like we hear happened in the Somchai case.

[Tony Clifton]

Launching this inquiry is imho the best thing that this government have done. The biggest breach of human rights in Thailand in a few decades deserves investigation. Lets now hope that there is no interference in the inquiry by the politicians or anyone else.

Unfortunately, there will be interference from the police then involved.

There will be missing evidence, missing investigation reports, missing testimonies, missing witnesses, etc. The inquiry will find nothing but a total mess when it begins. Heads will roll, many heads.

I wouldnt doubt much evidence has disappeared already just like we hear happened in the Somchai case.

And on the evening of the coup when a van was loaded with files and took off before the army walked in.

[sriracha john]

Southeast Asia: Probe into Thai Drug War Killings Getting Underway

In early 2003, then Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra declared that he would wipe out drugs in Thailand by spring's end. That didn't happen, but some 2,500 alleged drug users and traffickers were killed by shadowy death squads as part of the Thaksin government's drug war that year alone.

With Thaksin overthrown by a military coup some months ago, the new Thai government has said it would investigate the killings. This week, the investigation took a step forward with the naming of former Attorney General Khanit Nakhon to lead an independent committee looking into the killings.

Justice Ministry permanent secretary Jarun Pukditanakul told theBangkok Post Saturday the commission will ask the Department of Special Investigation to provide information to help bring guilty officials to justice. ''The government has to give priority to this issue," he said. "Those who had a hand in the extra-judicial killings must be held responsible for their acts."

That sounded good to Somchai Homlaor, head of the Foundation for Human Rights and Development, who said the murders involved people from low-level policemen all the way up to former Prime Minister Thaksin. ''This is a big issue. The government should be serious about it,'' said the human rights activist.

Thaksin acted amidst growing concern over the rapid increase in the use of methamphetamine in Thailand early this decade. Known in Thailand as "ya ba," or "crazy medicine," the drug has been popular among workers, students, and night-clubbers. Thaksin's bloody offensive to wipe out drugs failed, of course, and methamphetamines are still widely available in Thailand, but 2,500 are dead. Now they just might get some justice.

- Drug War Chronicle Newsletter

http://stopthedrugwar.org

[Netfan]

Gee, why isnt the Campaign Committee for Human Rights http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=68 joining in on the call for an investigation? You would think with their concern for Human Rights they would be front and center

[hammered]

Gee, why isnt the Campaign Committee for Human Rights http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=68 joining in on the call for an investigation? You would think with their concern for Human Rights they would be front and center

This lack of evenhandedness by the Thaksinistas, their front organizations and the leftist elements that tied themselves to the mast of T is almost Stalinist in its selective approach to any issue and entirely determined by whether it is pro or anti-T. The scary thing is that there has been a lot more self criticsm from within the Junta, government, NLA and their supporters than within what claims to be a democracy movement. That is frightening if you can find more freedom and a greater will to self criticise in a military run set up than in something that is supposedly an organic democratic movement. To date no academic has analysed this, which one would think they would if they wanted to see where Thai emocracy could be going if the main opposition camp had its way. It probably doesnt fit with the assumptions they baselessly make on Thailand. Although the level of academic debate particularly on Thai politics has never been of a very high standard currently it is at an all time low.

By its own definition of what it is Prachathai is letting itself down badly by not headlining this inquiry and covering the human rights abuses to be investigated by it. Hopefuly after the holiday soirees the editors will see fit to correct this oversight on their English language website.

Edited August 12, 2007 by hammered

[sriracha john]

Extrajudicial-killings in Thaksin drug war to be probed

BANGKOK -- The cabinet approved Tuesday an independent committee to conduct a retro-investigation into some 2,500 extra-judicial killings carried out during former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's 'war on drugs campaign' launched nationwide by the former Thaksin administration several years ago.

Human rights groups say at least 2,500 people died during the notorious campaign held in 2003 and 2004.

Government spokesman Yongyuth Mayalarp said the committee, headed by Kanit na Nakhon, former attorney general and includes permanent secretary for Justice Jaran Pakdithanakul and former Senator Kraisak Choonhavan, will look back over the last several years during which time the Thaksin government's anti-drug campaign had seen hundreds of suspected traffickers of drugs, especially speed pills, gunned down by the police in extra-judicial fashion in all parts of the country.

The Justice Ministry's Department of Special Investigation will collaborate with the Kanit panel which will gather information pertaining to the alleged overkills under the drug campaign from members of the public and take into account the alleged abuses of human rights during the drug war.

- MCOT

[sriracha john]

Inquiry set up into drug war killings

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont yesterday signed an order to establish an independent committee to investigate the extra-judicial killings of more than 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs. The panel, headed by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is made up of 12 members, including senior criminal justice officials, law enforcement officers, and human rights defenders. Its other members are permanent-secretary for justice Jarun Pukditanakul, his deputies Kittipong Kitayarak and Charnchao Chaiyanukij, former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan, the Office of the Narcotics Control Board's secretary-general Kitti Limchaikij, and assistant national police chief Pol Lt-Gen Wanchai Srinualnat. The committee will hold its first meeting next week. The establishment of the inquiry committee was applauded by human rights defenders. Somchai Homla-or, secretary-general of the Human Rights and Development Foundation, said he appreciated the government's initiative because most of those killed during the war on drugs were believed to be innocent. ''The death of some 2,500 drug suspects is one of the worst human rights violations of this country,'' said Mr Somchai.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Aug2007_news08.php

Edited August 15, 2007 by Jai Dee
Post merged into correct (reopened) thread

[LaoPo]

Inquiry set up into drug war killings

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont yesterday signed an order to establish an independent committee to investigate the extra-judicial killings of more than 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs. The panel, headed by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is made up of 12 members, including senior criminal justice officials, law enforcement officers, and human rights defenders. Its other members are permanent-secretary for justice Jarun Pukditanakul, his deputies Kittipong Kitayarak and Charnchao Chaiyanukij, former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan, the Office of the Narcotics Control Board's secretary-general Kitti Limchaikij, and assistant national police chief Pol Lt-Gen Wanchai Srinualnat. The committee will hold its first meeting next week. The establishment of the inquiry committee was applauded by human rights defenders. Somchai Homla-or, secretary-general of the Human Rights and Development Foundation, said he appreciated the government's initiative because most of those killed during the war on drugs were believed to be innocent. ''The death of some 2,500 drug suspects is one of the worst human rights violations of this country,'' said Mr Somchai.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Aug2007_news08.php

I was hesitating to comment because it is an extremely difficult and sensitive subject: "The death of some 2,500 drug suspects"

The same link in the Bangkok Post also says:

"Saneh Chamrik, chairman of the National Human Rights Commission, said his panel had investigated the killings and found innocent people had also been murdered."

If that's true [to be proved, yet] it's horrible for the innocent people, their families and friends involved.

However, we seem to forget HOW BAD and devastating drugs are in this country and how many people are killed, year-in-year out because of drugs, in Thailand !

One of the most kind, respected and esteemed members on Thaivisa recently almost lost his wife because she was 'fed' by so called friends with the same drugs, Yaba* in this case.

The outcome and effects of this 'killing' drug is so terrible that almost nobody can even imagine what this drug does to the life(s) of the people involved.

I'm not saying that the death of the 2,500 are/were justified or not; I just wish that readers, here on TV, take a moment of silence and think WHAT horror those drugs do to the people in Thailand, their families ands friends...

*Yaba: http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs5/5048/

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaba_(drug)

LaoPo

[sriracha john]

I think we can agree that methamphetamine usage is a problem.

The point is the method of trying to resolve this problem should not involve putting a bullet in a person's head... particularly those heads that had nothing to do with drugs... but also, even those that did.

[LaoPo]

I think we can agree that methamphetamine [Yaba, a.o.] usage is a problem.

The point is the method of trying to resolve this problem should not involve putting a bullet in a person's head... particularly those heads that had nothing to do with drugs... but also, even those that did.

..."usage a problem" ?

I don't think it's an understatement to say that production and selling is a HUGE problem !

...so, how do you suggest we explain this to the drug producers and dealers ?

Talk to them and ask them to stop killing thousands of innocent -mostly- young lives...?

Hmmm...isn't it a difficult choice ? Putting a quick bullet in their heads -and risk innocent people to die as well- or let them (drugs mafia) go ahead and 'produce' more killings than ever before?

I wouldn't want to be the judge here.

LaoPo

Edited August 15, 2007 by LaoPo

[sriracha john]

Without usage, there is no production and selling.

How to solve the methamphetamine usage/production problem?

No easy answer. Every country in the world is struggling with it.

Education, rehabilitation, poverty-eradication, etc. etc. and still the problem can persist to the point where eliminating it is a forgone impossibility and the only hope is to limit its toll on society.

What every country has pretty much figured out is that the answer is NOT to murder users.... or as in Thaksin's case, even non-users.

[hammered]

Inquiry set up into drug war killings

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont yesterday signed an order to establish an independent committee to investigate the extra-judicial killings of more than 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs. The panel, headed by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is made up of 12 members, including senior criminal justice officials, law enforcement officers, and human rights defenders. Its other members are permanent-secretary for justice Jarun Pukditanakul, his deputies Kittipong Kitayarak and Charnchao Chaiyanukij, former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan, the Office of the Narcotics Control Board's secretary-general Kitti Limchaikij, and assistant national police chief Pol Lt-Gen Wanchai Srinualnat. The committee will hold its first meeting next week. The establishment of the inquiry committee was applauded by human rights defenders. Somchai Homla-or, secretary-general of the Human Rights and Development Foundation, said he appreciated the government's initiative because most of those killed during the war on drugs were believed to be innocent. ''The death of some 2,500 drug suspects is one of the worst human rights violations of this country,'' said Mr Somchai.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Aug2007_news08.php

I was hesitating to comment because it is an extremely difficult and sensitive subject: "The death of some 2,500 drug suspects"

The same link in the Bangkok Post also says:

"Saneh Chamrik, chairman of the National Human Rights Commission, said his panel had investigated the killings and found innocent people had also been murdered."

If that's true [to be proved, yet] it's horrible for the innocent people, their families and friends involved.

However, we seem to forget HOW BAD and devastating drugs are in this country and how many people are killed, year-in-year out because of drugs, in Thailand !

One of the most kind, respected and esteemed members on Thaivisa recently almost lost his wife because she was 'fed' by so called friends with the same drugs, Yaba* in this case.

The outcome and effects of this 'killing' drug is so terrible that almost nobody can even imagine what this drug does to the life(s) of the people involved.

I'm not saying that the death of the 2,500 are/were justified or not; I just wish that readers, here on TV, take a moment of silence and think WHAT horror those drugs do to the people in Thailand, their families ands friends...

*Yaba: http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs5/5048/

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaba_(drug)

LaoPo

Drug problems or for thast matter any severe societal problems however bad they get need to be dealt with within the framework of the law. Now if the law is deemed to weak or not enough of a deterrent then a goverment could enact legislation to make it stronger. For example legislation could have been passed that all convicted ya-ba dealers would automatically receive the death penalty. Personally I do not agree with such a barbaric and inhumane state punishmnet but that option was open to the authorities if they wanted to legally off drug dealers under democratic process. In many ways they were hamstrung by their own inabaility to introduce effective laws or effective deterrents not to mention their own parties links to the trade, but that was no excuse to say OK lets screw the law and just kill anyone we or our police buddies think are drug dealers (not on our side). Even by going the legislation route they could have still left all their TRT canvassing drug dealers alone as there was no need to actually have their police buddies lift them. All in all my feeling is that as with many things the government just decided this is easy and it will be popular in a kind of lynch mob manner so lets do it. Screw any legal niceties.

[LaoPo]

Without usage, there is no production and selling.

Drugs producers and dealers PUSH, PROMOTE & SELL the bloody <deleted> and create the demand and therefore the usage. It's not the other way around as you wrote.

It's like the egg and the chicken....which one was first?

With drugs, however, it's the producers of drugs, CREATING demand.

LaoPo

[blaze]

Inquiry set up into drug war killings

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont yesterday signed an order to establish an independent committee to investigate the extra-judicial killings of more than 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs. The panel, headed by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is made up of 12 members, including senior criminal justice officials, law enforcement officers, and human rights defenders. Its other members are permanent-secretary for justice Jarun Pukditanakul, his deputies Kittipong Kitayarak and Charnchao Chaiyanukij, former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan, the Office of the Narcotics Control Board's secretary-general Kitti Limchaikij, and assistant national police chief Pol Lt-Gen Wanchai Srinualnat. The committee will hold its first meeting next week. The establishment of the inquiry committee was applauded by human rights defenders. Somchai Homla-or, secretary-general of the Human Rights and Development Foundation, said he appreciated the government's initiative because most of those killed during the war on drugs were believed to be innocent. ''The death of some 2,500 drug suspects is one of the worst human rights violations of this country,'' said Mr Somchai.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Aug2007_news08.php

I was hesitating to comment because it is an extremely difficult and sensitive subject: "The death of some 2,500 drug suspects"

The same link in the Bangkok Post also says:

"Saneh Chamrik, chairman of the National Human Rights Commission, said his panel had investigated the killings and found innocent people had also been murdered."

If that's true [to be proved, yet] it's horrible for the innocent people, their families and friends involved.

However, we seem to forget HOW BAD and devastating drugs are in this country and how many people are killed, year-in-year out because of drugs, in Thailand !

One of the most kind, respected and esteemed members on Thaivisa recently almost lost his wife because she was 'fed' by so called friends with the same drugs, Yaba* in this case.

The outcome and effects of this 'killing' drug is so terrible that almost nobody can even imagine what this drug does to the life(s) of the people involved.

I'm not saying that the death of the 2,500 are/were justified or not; I just wish that readers, here on TV, take a moment of silence and think WHAT horror those drugs do to the people in Thailand, their families ands friends...

*Yaba: http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs5/5048/

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaba_(drug)

LaoPo

Drug problems or for thast matter any severe societal problems however bad they get need to be dealt with within the framework of the law. Now if the law is deemed to weak or not enough of a deterrent then a goverment could enact legislation to make it stronger. For example legislation could have been passed that all convicted ya-ba dealers would automatically receive the death penalty. Personally I do not agree with such a barbaric and inhumane state punishmnet but that option was open to the authorities if they wanted to legally off drug dealers under democratic process. In many ways they were hamstrung by their own inabaility to introduce effective laws or effective deterrents not to mention their own parties links to the trade, but that was no excuse to say OK lets screw the law and just kill anyone we or our police buddies think are drug dealers (not on our side). Even by going the legislation route they could have still left all their TRT canvassing drug dealers alone as there was no need to actually have their police buddies lift them. All in all my feeling is that as with many things the government just decided this is easy and it will be popular in a kind of lynch mob manner so lets do it. Screw any legal niceties.

Would you apply the same logic to governments that are perceived to be damaging the country? Should they also receive legal protection- the ease with which many Thais accepted the drug war has an analogy in the ease with which many accepted the tearing up of the constitution. Those who condemn the extra-judicial solutions to the drug wars MUST also condemn the extra constitutional solutions to the political impasse.

Those who supported the killings proudly announced- the checks and balances weren't working. We had no choice. Sound familiar?

We heard at the time of the drug war that it was justified because the society was being destoryed. We heard at the time of the coup that it was justified because the society was, "on the verge of becoming a failed state'.

And many, even now, when confronted with the inescapable evidence that innocents were murdered, will say, "yes but that was an unintended consequence and really- things are better now." (Or they would have said that shortly after the war when the dealers had either gone deeper or been killed). And some people say now, 'yes the dictatorship was illegal but things are better now.'

Perhaps- and it's a big perhaps- the nation learnned that there is NO excuse for cirucumventing the law= when it comes to drugs. And not this coup- but in a coup to come- and there will be coups to come, given the abiding popularity of this one- society will learn that same lesson. The hard way.

Edited August 15, 2007 by blaze

[hammered]

Inquiry set up into drug war killings

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont yesterday signed an order to establish an independent committee to investigate the extra-judicial killings of more than 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs. The panel, headed by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is made up of 12 members, including senior criminal justice officials, law enforcement officers, and human rights defenders. Its other members are permanent-secretary for justice Jarun Pukditanakul, his deputies Kittipong Kitayarak and Charnchao Chaiyanukij, former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan, the Office of the Narcotics Control Board's secretary-general Kitti Limchaikij, and assistant national police chief Pol Lt-Gen Wanchai Srinualnat. The committee will hold its first meeting next week. The establishment of the inquiry committee was applauded by human rights defenders. Somchai Homla-or, secretary-general of the Human Rights and Development Foundation, said he appreciated the government's initiative because most of those killed during the war on drugs were believed to be innocent. ''The death of some 2,500 drug suspects is one of the worst human rights violations of this country,'' said Mr Somchai.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Aug2007_news08.php

I was hesitating to comment because it is an extremely difficult and sensitive subject: "The death of some 2,500 drug suspects"

The same link in the Bangkok Post also says:

"Saneh Chamrik, chairman of the National Human Rights Commission, said his panel had investigated the killings and found innocent people had also been murdered."

If that's true [to be proved, yet] it's horrible for the innocent people, their families and friends involved.

However, we seem to forget HOW BAD and devastating drugs are in this country and how many people are killed, year-in-year out because of drugs, in Thailand !

One of the most kind, respected and esteemed members on Thaivisa recently almost lost his wife because she was 'fed' by so called friends with the same drugs, Yaba* in this case.

The outcome and effects of this 'killing' drug is so terrible that almost nobody can even imagine what this drug does to the life(s) of the people involved.

I'm not saying that the death of the 2,500 are/were justified or not; I just wish that readers, here on TV, take a moment of silence and think WHAT horror those drugs do to the people in Thailand, their families ands friends...

*Yaba: http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs5/5048/

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaba_(drug)

LaoPo

Drug problems or for thast matter any severe societal problems however bad they get need to be dealt with within the framework of the law. Now if the law is deemed to weak or not enough of a deterrent then a goverment could enact legislation to make it stronger. For example legislation could have been passed that all convicted ya-ba dealers would automatically receive the death penalty. Personally I do not agree with such a barbaric and inhumane state punishmnet but that option was open to the authorities if they wanted to legally off drug dealers under democratic process. In many ways they were hamstrung by their own inabaility to introduce effective laws or effective deterrents not to mention their own parties links to the trade, but that was no excuse to say OK lets screw the law and just kill anyone we or our police buddies think are drug dealers (not on our side). Even by going the legislation route they could have still left all their TRT canvassing drug dealers alone as there was no need to actually have their police buddies lift them. All in all my feeling is that as with many things the government just decided this is easy and it will be popular in a kind of lynch mob manner so lets do it. Screw any legal niceties.

Would you apply the same logic to governments that are perceived to be damaging the country? Should they also receive legal protection- the ease with which many Thais accepted the drug war has an analogy in the ease with which many accepted the tearing up of the constitution. Those who condemn the extra-judicial solutions to the drug wars MUST also condemn the extra constitutional solutions to the political impasse.

Those who supported the killings proudly announced- the checks and balances weren't working. We had no choice. Sound familiar?

We heard at the time of the drug war that it was justified because the society was being destoryed. We heard at the time of the coup that it was justified because the society was, "on the verge of becoming a failed state'.

And many, even now, when confronted with the inescapable evidence that innocents were murdered, will say, "yes but that was an unintended consequence and really- things are better now." (Or they would have said that shortly after the war when the dealers had either gone deeper or been killed). And some people say now, 'yes the dictatorship was illegal but things are better now.'

Perhaps- and it's a big perhaps- the nation learnned that there is NO excuse for cirucumventing the law= when it comes to drugs. And not this coup- but in a coup to come- and there will be coups to come, given the abiding popularity of this one- society will learn that same lesson. The hard way.

Personally and I am talking personally here as obviously the peole of Thailand see things differently from me, I do see that things should be dealt with through the law in any case. By the way I also think that is wrong to try and seperate the 2500 or whatver it was dead into the "innocent" and the "drug dealers" Nobody was ever convicted before a court and therefore all were legally innocent if one is to believe in democratic principles.

At some time yes government leaders, coupists whoever must be held to account for breaches of law. Persoanlly I wouldnt mind seeing that day now. However, there wouldnot be many politicans left at all in Thailand if all were held to account for their crimes. That may actually be a good thing but obviously isnt going to happen right now. Thai society is changing. What we see now is a vicious power play not on an ideological level but on a pure winner takes all power level unless some unlikely looking compromise can suddenly be found. That in time Thai society will outdistance itself from any of the strangely allied protagonists is inevitably going to happen. However, in the meantime we will no doubt see more human rights abuses although I really hope no more killings. Those who enact these should be held in front of a court of law. It is just that I choose to feel more strongly about the denial of the least controversial human right of a right to not be killed in making the arguements I have here. That is just what I find most objectionable as a human. That is not to say others should not be held accountable for what they have done in other cases, and I support anyone genuinely trying to bring to light abuses independent of politcal interference.

On another point on the drug policy, a government that contols executive and legisature has no need to turn away from the law, not that it should eevr consider this even if it didnt have this, but a government with such power could have tried to do things legally over the drug problems. They did not make one effort. They just turned straight to a final solution and by that showed they had no true democratic credentials, which brings us back to the sad state of Thai democracy, then, now and presumably later.

[Siripon]

Inquiry set up into drug war killings

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont yesterday signed an order to establish an independent committee to investigate the extra-judicial killings of more than 2,500 people during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs. The panel, headed by former attorney-general Khanit na Nakhon, is made up of 12 members, including senior criminal justice officials, law enforcement officers, and human rights defenders. Its other members are permanent-secretary for justice Jarun Pukditanakul, his deputies Kittipong Kitayarak and Charnchao Chaiyanukij, former Nakhon Ratchasima senator Kraisak Choonhavan, the Office of the Narcotics Control Board's secretary-general Kitti Limchaikij, and assistant national police chief Pol Lt-Gen Wanchai Srinualnat. The committee will hold its first meeting next week. The establishment of the inquiry committee was applauded by human rights defenders. Somchai Homla-or, secretary-general of the Human Rights and Development Foundation, said he appreciated the government's initiative because most of those killed during the war on drugs were believed to be innocent. ''The death of some 2,500 drug suspects is one of the worst human rights violations of this country,'' said Mr Somchai.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/15Aug2007_news08.php

I was hesitating to comment because it is an extremely difficult and sensitive subject: "The death of some 2,500 drug suspects"

The same link in the Bangkok Post also says:

"Saneh Chamrik, chairman of the National Human Rights Commission, said his panel had investigated the killings and found innocent people had also been murdered."

If that's true [to be proved, yet] it's horrible for the innocent people, their families and friends involved.

However, we seem to forget HOW BAD and devastating drugs are in this country and how many people are killed, year-in-year out because of drugs, in Thailand !

One of the most kind, respected and esteemed members on Thaivisa recently almost lost his wife because she was 'fed' by so called friends with the same drugs, Yaba* in this case.

The outcome and effects of this 'killing' drug is so terrible that almost nobody can even imagine what this drug does to the life(s) of the people involved.

I'm not saying that the death of the 2,500 are/were justified or not; I just wish that readers, here on TV, take a moment of silence and think WHAT horror those drugs do to the people in Thailand, their families ands friends...

*Yaba: http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs5/5048/

and:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaba_(drug)

LaoPo

Drug problems or for thast matter any severe societal problems however bad they get need to be dealt with within the framework of the law. Now if the law is deemed to weak or not enough of a deterrent then a goverment could enact legislation to make it stronger. For example legislation could have been passed that all convicted ya-ba dealers would automatically receive the death penalty. Personally I do not agree with such a barbaric and inhumane state punishmnet but that option was open to the authorities if they wanted to legally off drug dealers under democratic process. In many ways they were hamstrung by their own inabaility to introduce effective laws or effective deterrents not to mention their own parties links to the trade, but that was no excuse to say OK lets screw the law and just kill anyone we or our police buddies think are drug dealers (not on our side). Even by going the legislation route they could have still left all their TRT canvassing drug dealers alone as there was no need to actually have their police buddies lift them. All in all my feeling is that as with many things the government just decided this is easy and it will be popular in a kind of lynch mob manner so lets do it. Screw any legal niceties.

Would you apply the same logic to governments that are perceived to be damaging the country? Should they also receive legal protection- the ease with which many Thais accepted the drug war has an analogy in the ease with which many accepted the tearing up of the constitution. Those who condemn the extra-judicial solutions to the drug wars MUST also condemn the extra constitutional solutions to the political impasse.

Those who supported the killings proudly announced- the checks and balances weren't working. We had no choice. Sound familiar?

We heard at the time of the drug war that it was justified because the society was being destoryed. We heard at the time of the coup that it was justified because the society was, "on the verge of becoming a failed state'.

And many, even now, when confronted with the inescapable evidence that innocents were murdered, will say, "yes but that was an unintended consequence and really- things are better now." (Or they would have said that shortly after the war when the dealers had either gone deeper or been killed). And some people say now, 'yes the dictatorship was illegal but things are better now.'

Perhaps- and it's a big perhaps- the nation learnned that there is NO excuse for cirucumventing the law= when it comes to drugs. And not this coup- but in a coup to come- and there will be coups to come, given the abiding popularity of this one- society will learn that same lesson. The hard way.

Don't compare the murder of thousands with Thaksin's 'illegal' overthrow.

'Circumventing the law'! Do you remember Thaksin's words when he was exposed for concealing millions of baht in his servants' names? A honest mistake!! And now it's starting to all come home with Colonel Chanchai claiming his joke of 30 million baht bribe to the judges. Will he reveal the true payers attempting to pervert the course of justice, as in 2001 when the mistake was deemed to be honest?

The judges are the only hope for honesty in Thailand, look at Chavalit's NAP MP poodles, ordered by him to join Samak's party, they silently follow like the employees they are, rather than MPs with dignity, the only party that can't be bought is The Democrats.

How many people have been killed by the state under Surayud's tenure compared to Thaksin's?

Thaksin's killings of drug suspects and innocents was state sponsored murder, approved or not by the populace, that strikes me as far more of a dictatorship than the present temporary regime of Surayud.