Water meter running even when outlet turned off

[Monkey Fish]

The first thing you need to know is: We are not the only house on the street with this problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB-cqGy_l8c

Normally our water bill is about 500 baht a month. For the most recent period, it was over 4,000 baht.

When the water guy came to leave the most recent bill, he actually wrote us a note and said there must be a problem. He left us a number to call to have it double-checked.

My wife called the water authority and they said they would send somebody out to check it. If they did so, we were not home or told when that happened.

Yesterday we received a mailed letter with the current due amount of over 4,000 baht.

At this point I went out to check the meter and made the above video. When the water to the house is turned off, the meter was still running at a good clip.

If it were just our house, then it might be reasonable to assume that the outlet valve is malfunctioning AND we have a 3,000+ baht water leak that we haven't noticed. BUT our neighbors are having the exact same problem, except their bill was over 6,000 baht.

They went to the water authority (we are in Samut Sakhon province) and they were told to pay the bill. If they want a new meter, the water authority offered to replace it for 500 baht.

I'm wondering if anybody here has ever heard of or experienced a problem like this before.

Thank you for your time.

[ricklev]

Interesting!

[lopburi3]

You do have normal water supply with output valve open? You can not check by closing input valve (wired/sealed open?) You have checked home (toilets) for any place water might be running due to dirt in water making valve stay open? Water supplies are at there worst currently so very likely to be much more dirt than normal - and that could include the valve on meter output. But there much be somewhere water is escaping if that is the case so best to shut of every output (toilets are most likely as can go unobserved is just a little leaking into bowel - over time can be a lot).

[longball53098]

just out of curiosity? What happens when you close the input side? Hopefully the flow meter stops?

And the output valve? Are you sure it is closing?

I am not that familiar with gate valves but is it possible that the gate is not really closing even though the handle is turning?

[OccamsRazor]

I had the exact same problem. 1st got a bill for 1000 B, normally around 100+, figured something was accidentally left running. However, next month 4000 baht bill and noticed the meter was spinning all the time. Checked everything in the house and nothing running, not even a drip on any water points. Turned out being the underground PVC from the meter to the house had a leak in it and was getting progressively worse even though we still had water pressure in the house.

Ended up having to dig up the ground to access the pipe and unfortunately at the entry to the house due to an extension the rest was under concrete. They re-ran new PVC underground to the house then above ground into the house to the main distribution plumbing column.

[villagefarang]

We have had two instances of leaking pipes over the last nine years. The last time was just last month and the leak is not always easy to find if it is underground. You have to meticulously follow the pipes around your property looking for the break and there may not be wet soil visible.

[ignis]

I had the exact same problem about 4 years ago....... very old fashioned, but get a stick/ wood dowel place it on a pipe or outlet in the house and put your ear to it, if somewhere water is leaking then you will hear it running. myself could not find the leak anywhere outside, believe leak was under the floor in the downstairs bathroom. so replaced all the pipework myself, so know have the pipes running outside on the wall.. Bills back down to 2 - 300 baht per month..

Since then 4 other houses in the Village have had the same problem that I know of this year, more worrying in the past 2 weeks 3 houses have leaking septic tanks = much bigger job.. one house they are changing all the pipework and the septic tank as I write..

water table is low = subsidence = plastic/UPVC pipe are breaking ??

[Liquorice]

Sounds as though you have an underground leak and the Outlet Gate Valve isn't actually closing, which is quite common and your unaware until you have a problem.

The rubber washers perish in the heat, crack, split or disintegrate. Dirt also lodges beneath the washers preventing them from closing properly.

A few expats have called me with this problem. In some cases I've been able to clear the valve of 'sludge' and then it shuts fine.

In other instances I've just replaced the complete Gate Valve, being unable to acquire just the washer.

Even the water engineers don't seem to carry what is a very common washer for a very common problem and just replace the complete valve.

I'd also check/replace the inlet valve at the same time.

The main problem is then finding where the underground leak is.

[LannaGuy]

I have a similar meter and it can only turn with water passing through it so you almost certainly have a leak

[kannot]

I had the exact same problem about 4 years ago....... very old fashioned, but get a stick/ wood dowel place it on a pipe or outlet in the house and put your ear to it, if somewhere water is leaking then you will hear it running. myself could not find the leak anywhere outside, believe leak was under the floor in the downstairs bathroom. so replaced all the pipework myself, so know have the pipes running outside on the wall.. Bills back down to 2 - 300 baht per month..

Since then 4 other houses in the Village have had the same problem that I know of this year, more worrying in the past 2 weeks 3 houses have leaking septic tanks = much bigger job.. one house they are changing all the pipework and the septic tank as I write..

water table is low = subsidence = plastic/UPVC pipe are breaking ??

I used one piece one inch hdpe pipe in a 50 metre run...no joints and flexible. When using the pvc I always get the 13 bar rated thicker stuff and use the better type of glue not the piss thin type normal glue.

[Monkey Fish]

I just got home and was able to run the tests suggested above.

With everything turned off, there is still a little water flow, so the meter-inlet valve is not closing completely. Opening the meter-inlet valve increases the flow very significantly.

The flow is no different with the outlet-valve open or closed, so it doesn't seem to be working at all.

So the leak hunt is on. The neighbors' have the same valves and conditions, so not a big surprise that they would also fail. And one assumes they have their own leaks to find.

Thank you everybody that took the time to read and/or comment. I'll follow up when I know more.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Monkey Fish

[xtrnuno41]

Logically: you have a leakage in your outlet tube and the valve isnt closed (broken). You can check by opening a valve in the house, if you open and there is no water coming out, its closed

you have another pipe connected BEFORE your outlet valve and that one is leaking now or used.

Meter is the kind of PD- meter. Positive displacement, so it needs a flowthrough to work otherwise it doesnt.

Inside the meter there is nothing but a bunch of wheels, some oval in the waterline and some round ones for transmittion to the counters.

I see in your video there is a device placed before your outlet valve, could be a anti flowback valve.

Weird is they all placed it in a concrete frame, but ok thats Thailand i guess, or to cover up?

Ofcourse you can dig out under the concrete frame to see what is there.

[Jedsada3]

To find the leakage check where the grass is green or grows up faster than other places. If your pipe runs underground, try to push a stick in the ground. Where it goes easy it's because it's wet.

If you have taps outside for the hose, the leckage might be there. When you pull the hose too much it could happen that the tap turns on the pipe and it makes it leack.

All above is own experience...

[BB1955]

Shut both valves see what happens , only way it could be consumption is if the leak is between the meter and shut off valve .

[lopburi3]

You might want to make new external connections for water and abandon the old system. Often this is not expensive and not even noticeable if done well. They have plastic clips for pipe on walls and easy enough to paint to match walls.

[aarn]

Check also where cars have been driving over lines, people playing petong, neighbour's buffalo ran across your property, lightning struck etc. AA

[tails]

YES

I have the same problem... last month we halved our usage and the bill was higher not lower!

[F4UCorsair]

I had the exact same problem about 4 years ago....... very old fashioned, but geit a stick/ wood dowel place it on a pipe or outlet in the house and put your ear to it, if somewhere water is leaking then you will hear it running. myself could not find the leak anywhere outside, believe leak was under the floor in the downstairs bathroom. so replaced all the pipework myself, so know have the pipes running outside on the wall.. Bills back down to 2 - 300 baht per month..

Since then 4 other houses in the Village have had the same problem that I know of this year, more worrying in the past 2 weeks 3 houses have leaking septic tanks = much bigger job.. one house they are changing all the pipework and the septic tank as I write..

water table is low = subsidence = plastic/UPVC pipe are breaking ??

Pipes should be in a bed of coarse sand, fine/ish gravel to tale up any movement and prevent the pipe being damahed by subsidence or movement.

It sounds like a leak to me, so try turning on a tap for a very slow flow, put an ear to a pipe you can access, and note what you hear. Turn the tap off and if you still hear a similar sound you definitely have a leak.

Finding it is somewhat more difficult, and depending on the type of soil, you may not see damp ground to give you a lead. In sandy soil, it just disappears down into the sand.

[Seewolf]

The Tabs are closed and it still runs may be the pipe between your meter and the house should be damaged, any wet areas on the same routing to be checked and digging down to find out.

The blue water pipes used in such compound are mostly the cheapest quality and it's easy to break them or having a leakage.............

[Mangostin]

That particular model of a valve, even if it looks much better, as they are all made of metal and cost much more than the blue/red pvc valves, are absolutely rubbish, i had to change the same one about 5 years ago, since i replaced it with a cheap one (pvc), i didn't had a single problem, however, your problem seems to include even more issues, as already pointed out by previous posts.

[thailand49]

Not sure of your location. I've had lot of water problems in the past myself, unable to see the entire footage but your City provided meter there should be two valves attached to the meter? Here in Pattaya the left one is from the City the one on the right is for the house. Once you close the city meter off water can't enter into the meter to register that should be it the meter should stop. Once water can't run from City line through Meter it should stop and you shouldn't be charged. If water is leaking before it goes through the meter that is really the City problem. If you do not have reserves tanks on your property and there is a leak underground on your property that wouldn't seem possible since the theory you have closed off the water from the street in entering through the meter to register. I guess you can check by turning off the City Valve and the house valve and go back into the house and see if water is still coming in by turning on a facet if water is still coming in then the valve is not working and still allowing water to come in even when you think you have turn it off. Not sure if I'm getting my point through? But something is not right or you are not telling us everything? Even if the meter or valve fail unless you turn on a fixture you aren't registering use? which makes me think the meter is defective? It sounds like the water department isn't responding and not surprise here in Thailand. My suggestion is to get a real plumber to come out and check the problem determine what is wrong and pay him to go down to the department to discuss the problem. Sometimes you got to pay a few baht to save a baht. The last thing is to not pay the bill when and wait for the department to come out to disconnect the valve from the water line you can jump on him and explain the problem? Long time ago my neighbor had a problem no one would come out so he stop paying the bill they came out and remove the meter thinking the turn off the water which they did by turning the valve off he went and got a PVC blue pipe and connected each end and got free water for a month until the next meter reading that was his way to get someone attention.

Edited June 16, 2016 by thailand49

[chaophraya49]

You may be lucky and find that the connection from the meter to your

outlet valve is the problem.

If the outlet valve is closing properly then the water pressure will

soon cause a leak from a dodgy connection.

I think you need to break out that concrete slab and expose the joints

between the meter and valve.

[Monkey Fish]

Looks like it was the toilet in the unused bathroom of the "maid's" quarters outside. Good calls above.

Not sure why the meter's valves are malfunctioning. It's a systemic problem in our neighborhood. The meters and valves were only installed a few years ago when the provincial water authority took over from the mooban developer. They should last longer than a few years.

Provincial water authority (which was responsible for embedding the valves and meter in concrete) is coming today for the meter valves. On the phone they said that if the meter-inlet valve is malfunctioning, they will replace it for free, but if the meter-outlet valve needs to be replaced, that's on the house owner.

Seems to me that if the meter-outlet valve is the owner's responsibility, they shouldn't embed it in concrete. But I've been wrong before (see above).

Thanks all for your help.

[Keesters]

What kind of piping do you have? Plastic or steel? How old is the installation?

I recently had lots of trouble with my 30 year old house which uses steel piping both in the house and the PWA's supply pipes underground in the street.

4 houses in total were not getting water but were getting bills.

Eventually I managed (all the Thai neighbors just carried on drinking whiskey/beer and paying for trucks to deliver water) to get the attention of the PWA and they replaced a section of the underground main supply pipe. I had to replace a certain amount of my piping from meter to underground tank as that had been blocked with all the **** the PWA had shoved through the meter.

Water supply returned to normal and bills halved. Still waiting (over 6 months now) for the road & footpath to be made good from where PWA dug it up.

[Aussie69]

Does your neighbor always have a full water tank?

[jacko45k]

Interesting!

Not for me.... the video will not play as it is 'private'.

Likely a leak between meter and house, got any areas where plants are thriving?

Edited June 17, 2016 by jacko45k

[Mangostin]

Interesting!

Not for me.... the video will not play as it is 'private'.

Likely a leak between meter and house, got any areas where plants are thriving?

Yes the Op must have fixed his issue, as the video can no longer be viewed, however, as one of privileged members whom saw it when it was still available, you didn't lose much, you could only see a cement block, with 2 water pipes coming up from it, each side had its own metal valve and in the middle there was this water's meter running quite quickly, as when someone is using a water's tap......ohh and a finger pointing at it.

[lungbing]

We had the same thing. Normal bill 200 baht, for two months it was 4,000. We could hear the water leaking but it was underground. We had to re-pipe the whole house with the water pipes inside the bathrooms instead of hidden between walls. looks unsightly, but at least if there's another leak we can see it ourselves!

The builder/plumber said it was because of the intense drought and the ground had dried up too much and had cracked the pipe somewhere.

[thailand49]

I hope you found the problem and corrected it? Reading the comments brings me nightmares to my own problem. One thing I have been doing the last two years is trying to re-pipe area's where it is accessible to me. I figure I was retired and since things were cheap and the wife wants things done right away I said what the heck but after a number of problems like burst pipes and leaks I decided to tackle the problem myself. What I found out as to how the house was build with you four walls that all the pipes from the street into the house land area is buried meaning pipes are under cement driveways leading to structure, a small leak and it is costly to dig up to fix. Told the wife we do not live on a farm so we can't just plant a giant tree in this area. Thais forget this and do not understand plants and tree can and will damage the pipes. I've had banana tree crush pipes. In my own re-piping I've found bad workmanship so bad worker get as cheap as not even using any pipe glue. I had one situation where I had a very small leak but the leak was at a fitting that a worker place cement over the pipe so it took me two weeks to slowly chip away at the area before I could repair. Today unless I need I will not allow a Thai worker to work on my house. I have chop all the trees down and yank the stumps out of the ground and design planter for my wife.

[Mangostin]

I decided to tackle the problem myself.

Today unless I need I will not allow a Thai worker to work on my house.

Same here, i wish i would have done it since the beginning, so many things that i needed to change by myself....i ended up having a collection of tools from almost all trades