So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

AlexRich · August 22, 2016

1 hour ago, yogi100 said:

Sovereignty in the context of the referendum refers to independence and self governance rather than whether or not we have a monarch.

Does it? We elect people and they make decisions ... many of which we don't like much. In the EU, we elect Governments, and they decide, after horse trading, who the EU top tier politicians are. Just as the Prime Minister selects a Foreign Secretary. I certainly didn't vote for either May or that knob Boris Johnson.

Was it really about being able to have a Brit decide how bendy our bananas are allowed to be, or was it really all down to immigration?

ljd1308 · August 22, 2016

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

As did we with our Olympic medal haul. What Syrian born player was in that German team?

There are more than just Syrian immigrants....

They had Turks, a Ghanaian, a Tunisian, a couple of Poles(who are also 2 of their 3 top scorers and appearance makers of all time) etc. Like I said, their immigration policy helped them win the world cup.

The French also won with a lot if immigrants....maybe that is the way back to the top for England?

AlexRich · August 22, 2016

54 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

There are more than just Syrian immigrants....

They had Turks, a Ghanaian, a Tunisian, a couple of Poles(who are also 2 of their 3 top scorers and appearance makers of all time) etc. Like I said, their immigration policy helped them win the world cup.

The French also won with a lot if immigrants....maybe that is the way back to the top for England?

England has had immigrants for hundreds of years ... I voted remain because immigration was not an important factor for me, but I do understand why it was for others ... it builds up resentments if it becomes too high ... as for Germany, an open door to refugees is similar, it is building up the same resentments in Germany. And that's dangerous as it leads to people voting for parties with hidden (and not so hidden) agendas ... in France, Austria and Holland we are seeing this. And Trump is jumping on that bandwagon. I've been lucky to avoid a world war in my lifetime ... no Somme or Stalingrad for me ... but I'm a bit uneasy about the direction of travel of the world today. Just an opinion.

GuestHouse · August 22, 2016

3 hours ago, yogi100 said:

Sovereignty in the context of the referendum refers to independence and self governance rather than whether or not we have a monarch.

In terms of the referendum, the notion that the UK is not a sovereign nation within the EU, the claim that the UK is not self governed in the EU or that the UK has lost any independence in the EU is hogwash.

No EU laws are passed that are not agreed and voted on by the UK parliament, the UK takes an active part in formulating EU laws, passes all EU laws through a debate in the UK's parliament and has an absolute veto on any EU law being presented at the EU parliament.

ljd1308 · August 22, 2016

19 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

England has had immigrants for hundreds of years ... I voted remain because immigration was not an important factor for me, but I do understand why it was for others ... it builds up resentments if it becomes too high ... as for Germany, an open door to refugees is similar, it is building up the same resentments in Germany. And that's dangerous as it leads to people voting for parties with hidden (and not so hidden) agendas ... in France, Austria and Holland we are seeing this. And Trump is jumping on that bandwagon. I've been lucky to avoid a world war in my lifetime ... no Somme or Stalingrad for me ... but I'm a bit uneasy about the direction of travel of the world today. Just an opinion.

The bolded bit I agree with.

But no one has been able to give me a logical argument against immigration, everything negative can be refuted by facts. People that do have an issue with immigration tend to bring feelings to fact fights.

Edited August 22, 2016 by ljd1308

AlexRich · August 22, 2016

4 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

The bolded bit I agree with.

But no one has been able to give me a logical argument against immigration, everything negative can be refuted by facts. People do have an issue with immigration tend to bring feelings to fact fights.

Yes, like you I don't have a great problem with immigration.

However, you can't just argue on the basis of facts ... which can be disputed ... some claimed immigration added net contributions to the economy, others argued otherwise ... both with their own set of facts to back them up.

I'm afraid emotions can't be filtered out of political decisions and that's why they are currently being exploited, not just in the UK, even more so in the US election. The problem is that if you have an open door then areas of a country find that their local services get overwhelmed, wages in some sectors fall, and those that lose out feel resentment. Even if the net is a benefit. The problem in the UK is that too many people felt left out ... and people stepped in to exploit that. You need to have some control to stop that from happening. Merkel meant well, but she may just have reached a tipping point, that will be exploited by the sort of people we would normally never have considered voting for.

ljd1308 · August 22, 2016

10 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Yes, like you I don't have a great problem with immigration.

However, you can't just argue on the basis of facts ... which can be disputed ... some claimed immigration added net contributions to the economy, others argued otherwise ... both with their own set of facts to back them up.

I'm afraid emotions can't be filtered out of political decisions and that's why they are currently being exploited, not just in the UK, even more so in the US election. The problem is that if you have an open door then areas of a country find that their local services get overwhelmed, wages in some sectors fall, and those that lose out feel resentment. Even if the net is a benefit. The problem in the UK is that too many people felt left out ... and people stepped in to exploit that. You need to have some control to stop that from happening. Merkel meant well, but she may just have reached a tipping point, that will be exploited by the sort of people we would normally never have considered voting for.

I have never seen any facts to support a negative impact on the economy by immigrants, i have seen many people claim that....but none with any evidence apart from their own anecdotal "evidence".

The problem is that in politics emotions should be filtered out, if not you end up with trump and a brexit.......and a world going down the drain.

SgtRock · August 23, 2016

3 hours ago, ljd1308 said:

I have never seen any facts to support a negative impact on the economy by immigrants, i have seen many people claim that....but none with any evidence apart from their own anecdotal "evidence".

The problem is that in politics emotions should be filtered out, if not you end up with trump and a brexit.......and a world going down the drain.

Every fact that emanates from the UK regarding people is flawed. For the simple reason that the Government has no idea how many people are in the UK and are still working off the flawed figures from the 2011 National Consensus.

In 2012, it was assessed that to be a Net Contributor to the UK, one would need to be a 40% taxpayer. I believe that in 2012 that figure was around £35,000

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2215070/Are-contributor-burden-nations-finances--Squeezed-middle-increasingly-dependent-state.html

As an illustrative example only:

In 2014 it was assessed that there were 114,000 Somali born immigrants residing in the UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalis_in_the_United_Kingdom

How many Somali immigrants are earning £35,000 per Annum in the UK ?

Apply that to every Immigrant Group in the UK.

In 2014 it was assessed that 14.7% of the working population pays tax at the 40% rate.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/jan/27/how-many-pay-top-rate-of-income-tax-uk

The fact of the matter is, that no Group, including born and bred Brits are net contributors to the UK

AlexRich · August 23, 2016

4 hours ago, ljd1308 said:

I have never seen any facts to support a negative impact on the economy by immigrants, i have seen many people claim that....but none with any evidence apart from their own anecdotal "evidence".

The problem is that in politics emotions should be filtered out, if not you end up with trump and a brexit.......and a world going down the drain.

There are published works suggesting that EU immigration in the UK has not been a net contributor ... I recall Theresa May making a speech were she stated that ... and that statement will be based on something written or analysed ... as she was a Home Office minister at the time.

As for emotions in people's decision making ... you might as well ask the tide not to come in ... it's in our nature ... only Mr Spock can manage that ... and he's a Vulcan!

PattayaBoy · August 23, 2016

I the mean time

Alleged sighting of Farage at German embassy sparks citizenship speculation

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/16/facebook-post-of-farage-sighting-at-german-embassy-sparks-speculation

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

PattayaBoy · August 23, 2016

"The Bank of England is widely expected to cut UK interest rates for the first time since March 2009 on Thursday.

It is anticipated that Mark Carney, the Bank governor, will announce a reduction from 0.5% to 0.25% at noon."

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36945368

[emoji20]

Cutting down interest rates does nothing at all, as everytime they cut interest rates they rise oil prices, well known trick.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Ricardo · August 23, 2016

3 hours ago, PattayaBoy said:

Cutting down interest rates does nothing at all, as everytime they cut interest rates they rise oil prices, well known trick.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Cutting interest-rates weakens the currency, and increases the cost of oil & hence pump-prices, oil being priced in US$ ... I think this cut was more an attempt to reassure the markets after Brexit, and that as inflation picks-up the BoE will soon be forced to start to raise rates again, perhaps by early/mid-2017.

They're still (I believe) tasked with aiming for about 2% inflation, so will be under pressure when it passes 3%, last month the Retail Price Index was up 1.9% year-on-year and the Consumer Price Index was up 0.6% year-on-year.

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/finance/retailpricesindexandconsumerpriceindex.htm

Worth also noting that consumers do often modify their behaviour, when something is seasonally-expensive, we tend to buy cheaper alternatives if we can. So it's not just my Scottish ancestry !

ljd1308 · August 23, 2016

5 hours ago, SgtRock said:

Every fact that emanates from the UK regarding people is flawed. For the simple reason that the Government has no idea how many people are in the UK and are still working off the flawed figures from the 2011 National Consensus.

In 2012, it was assessed that to be a Net Contributor to the UK, one would need to be a 40% taxpayer. I believe that in 2012 that figure was around £35,000

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2215070/Are-contributor-burden-nations-finances--Squeezed-middle-increasingly-dependent-state.html

As an illustrative example only:

In 2014 it was assessed that there were 114,000 Somali born immigrants residing in the UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalis_in_the_United_Kingdom

How many Somali immigrants are earning £35,000 per Annum in the UK ?

Apply that to every Immigrant Group in the UK.

In 2014 it was assessed that 14.7% of the working population pays tax at the 40% rate.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/jan/27/how-many-pay-top-rate-of-income-tax-uk

The fact of the matter is, that no Group, including born and bred Brits are net contributors to the UK

You have provided links....which is good and appreciated(I don't have time to read them now), but at the end of it, it is still based on your feelings or beliefs.

On the bolded bit:

You are literally asking the question how many somali immigrants earn 35k or more. You don't know for a fact they don't, you are just guessing, I could easily guess that all of them do....neither are based on facts. You are then taking your guesswork and applying it to every other immigrant group. So a belief of yours about one small group as morphed into something that applies for every immigrant in the UK.

This is what I refer to when I say feelings are more important than facts for some people.

It doesn't matter on an individual level anyway, it is cumulative. Those 14.7% of people that pay that tax rate don't just earn 35k to cover their own costs. One person could earn 70k and one could earn 10k putting the pair of them over the amount to cover their costs.

ljd1308 · August 23, 2016

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

There are published works suggesting that EU immigration in the UK has not been a net contributor ... I recall Theresa May making a speech were she stated that ... and that statement will be based on something written or analysed ... as she was a Home Office minister at the time.

As for emotions in people's decision making ... you might as well ask the tide not to come in ... it's in our nature ... only Mr Spock can manage that ... and he's a Vulcan!

Re. The bit in bold:

You may be right, but is a British PM making a statement about it really the confirmation you would choose as verification?

They don't exactly have the best record for telling the truth.....especially from that side of the room.

In this instance I can be Vulcanesque as while I have scouse parents i was born and raised in Australia and now live in Thailand....so unless I randomly decide to move the UK in the future(and this vote has put me off that for sure) then it won't affect me. I'm just disappointed that a country that I have an affinity with have chosen to go down this route and for the life of me cannot understand it.

ljd1308 · August 23, 2016

5 hours ago, SgtRock said:

Every fact that emanates from the UK regarding people is flawed. For the simple reason that the Government has no idea how many people are in the UK and are still working off the flawed figures from the 2011 National Consensus.

In 2012, it was assessed that to be a Net Contributor to the UK, one would need to be a 40% taxpayer. I believe that in 2012 that figure was around £35,000

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2215070/Are-contributor-burden-nations-finances--Squeezed-middle-increasingly-dependent-state.html

As an illustrative example only:

In 2014 it was assessed that there were 114,000 Somali born immigrants residing in the UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalis_in_the_United_Kingdom

How many Somali immigrants are earning £35,000 per Annum in the UK ?

Apply that to every Immigrant Group in the UK.

In 2014 it was assessed that 14.7% of the working population pays tax at the 40% rate.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/jan/27/how-many-pay-top-rate-of-income-tax-uk

The fact of the matter is, that no Group, including born and bred Brits are net contributors to the UK

I just read that first link and I very much appreciate you posting that as if you can be bothered to read back through this thread you will find I said the exact same thing about the pensioners.

That article obviously goes into alot more detail than I could(or would), but the gist of it is that the aging population is putting a strain on the rest of the population.

My answer to this is to increase the number of taxpayers(or amount taken in tax) to support the government pension because your NI payments will not support it, you need income from elsewhere to do so.

And the easiest way to increase the number of tax payers is to increase the population, so either ban contraceptives or allow more immigrants.

vogie · August 23, 2016

4 hours ago, AlexRich said:

There are published works suggesting that EU immigration in the UK has not been a net contributor ... I recall Theresa May making a speech were she stated that ... and that statement will be based on something written or analysed ... as she was a Home Office minister at the time.

As for emotions in people's decision making ... you might as well ask the tide not to come in ... it's in our nature ... only Mr Spock can manage that ... and he's a Vulcan!

Not true, his mother was human making him only half Vulcan, hope this helps.

ljd1308 · August 23, 2016

Just now, vogie said:

Not true, his mother was human making him only half Vulcan, hope this helps.

I think that pretty much settles the whole Brexit debate

sandyf · August 23, 2016

32 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

I just read that first link and I very much appreciate you posting that as if you can be bothered to read back through this thread you will find I said the exact same thing about the pensioners.

That article obviously goes into alot more detail than I could(or would), but the gist of it is that the aging population is putting a strain on the rest of the population.

My answer to this is to increase the number of taxpayers(or amount taken in tax) to support the government pension because your NI payments will not support it, you need income from elsewhere to do so.

And the easiest way to increase the number of tax payers is to increase the population, so either ban contraceptives or allow more immigrants.

Nearly 13 percent of income tax already goes on state pensions.

Your taxes and public spending
This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)
Health (19.9%)
State Pensions (12.8%)
Education (12.5%)
Defence (5.4%)
National Debt Interest (5.0%)
Public Order and Safety (4.4%)
Transport (3.0%)
Business And Industry (2.7%)
Government Administration (2.0%)
Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)
Environment (1.7%)
Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)
Overseas Aid (1.3%)
UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

ljd1308 · August 23, 2016

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Nearly 13 percent of income tax already goes on state pensions.

Your taxes and public spending
This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)
Health (19.9%)
State Pensions (12.8%)
Education (12.5%)
Defence (5.4%)
National Debt Interest (5.0%)
Public Order and Safety (4.4%)
Transport (3.0%)
Business And Industry (2.7%)
Government Administration (2.0%)
Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)
Environment (1.7%)
Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)
Overseas Aid (1.3%)
UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

Is that including the 12% NI payments? Or is it additional? Either way it is pretty bad, but it makes it much worse if it doesnt.

That figure will only increase because both inflation and the aging population....which is why immigration is important, especially if you can target 40-50 year olds who will be higher earners(theoretically) and contribute, but not be entitled to the full pension when they retire(I appreciate specific demographics are difficult to target).

The UK(and most western countries) have similar problems which can be solved, but only with an open mind.

ThaiPauly · August 23, 2016

43 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Nearly 13 percent of income tax already goes on state pensions.

Your taxes and public spending
This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)
Health (19.9%)
State Pensions (12.8%)
Education (12.5%)
Defence (5.4%)
National Debt Interest (5.0%)
Public Order and Safety (4.4%)
Transport (3.0%)
Business And Industry (2.7%)
Government Administration (2.0%)
Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)
Environment (1.7%)
Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)
Overseas Aid (1.3%)
UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

A very informative post, thanks very much, but why has state pensions been highlighted in red?

ThaiPauly · August 23, 2016

At 0.6% contributions to the EU Budget makes me wonder if this whole Brexit vote was a waste of time, get a few hundred thousand off welfare and it would have been covered. I don't mean the disabled , just the scroungers

AlexRich · August 23, 2016

2 hours ago, ljd1308 said:

Re. The bit in bold:

You may be right, but is a British PM making a statement about it really the confirmation you would choose as verification?

They don't exactly have the best record for telling the truth.....especially from that side of the room.

In this instance I can be Vulcanesque as while I have scouse parents i was born and raised in Australia and now live in Thailand....so unless I randomly decide to move the UK in the future(and this vote has put me off that for sure) then it won't affect me. I'm just disappointed that a country that I have an affinity with have chosen to go down this route and for the life of me cannot understand it.

She was speaking as Home Secretary at the time, and the fact that she made that statement made some commentators surprised that she campaigned in the remain camp. The point that is being made is that there is research by both sides, with facts to back them up, arguing both gain and loss. The question about the economic benefits of the immigration that the UK has experienced recently is not something that you can provide a mathematical proof for ... a lot depends on the scope of the research, the assumptions made, etc. So you can craft an argument either way.

Given that you are from Australia the same arguments are being played out there.

ljd1308 · August 23, 2016

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

She was speaking as Home Secretary at the time, and the fact that she made that statement made some commentators surprised that she campaigned in the remain camp. The point that is being made is that there is research by both sides, with facts to back them up, arguing both gain and loss. The question about the economic benefits of the immigration that the UK has experienced recently is not something that you can provide a mathematical proof for ... a lot depends on the scope of the research, the assumptions made, etc. So you can craft an argument either way.

Given that you are from Australia the same arguments are being played out there.

Unfortunately you are right....and I am having similar discussions about that too.

You are also right about facts and figures being made to suit each side, but the financial argument is just one side of it anyway....far more important in my view is the human side.

AlexRich · August 23, 2016

2 hours ago, vogie said:

Not true, his mother was human making him only half Vulcan, hope this helps.

Spoken like a true Trekkie!

SgtRock · August 23, 2016

3 hours ago, ljd1308 said:

I just read that first link and I very much appreciate you posting that as if you can be bothered to read back through this thread you will find I said the exact same thing about the pensioners.

That article obviously goes into alot more detail than I could(or would), but the gist of it is that the aging population is putting a strain on the rest of the population.

My answer to this is to increase the number of taxpayers(or amount taken in tax) to support the government pension because your NI payments will not support it, you need income from elsewhere to do so.

And the easiest way to increase the number of tax payers is to increase the population, so either ban contraceptives or allow more immigrants.

The easiest way to increase the number of tax payers is to get the 1.6 Million ( Plus those that do not show up on unemployment figures ) back into work.

Until that is achieved, there is no need to import people from anywhere to raise the tax base.

Ageing population putting a strain on the rest of the population ? Boo Freakin Hoo, that is the fault of successive Governments, not the ageing population. It becomes a real kick in the swingers when you take peoples money on the promise of something in return at retirement, and then fail to plan for that eventuality.

There is a very obvious pattern emerging throughout the Western World and all the indicators are pointing in the same direction, straight at Politicians.

SgtRock · August 23, 2016

2 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

A very informative post, thanks very much, but why has state pensions been highlighted in red?

Because the 12.8% highlighted comes from tax payment contributions, which is over and above NI contributions that was meant to fund the State Pension.

ljd1308 · August 23, 2016

2 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

The easiest way to increase the number of tax payers is to get the 1.6 Million ( Plus those that do not show up on unemployment figures ) back into work.

Until that is achieved, there is no need to import people from anywhere to raise the tax base.

Ageing population putting a strain on the rest of the population ? Boo Freakin Hoo, that is the fault of successive Governments, not the ageing population. It becomes a real kick in the swingers when you take peoples money on the promise of something in return at retirement, and then fail to plan for that eventuality.

There is a very obvious pattern emerging throughout the Western World and all the indicators are pointing in the same direction, straight at Politicians.

I wasn't really looking to blame anyone, least of all pensioners. It's not a case of blaming, it's about finding a solution.

But what do you think was promised?

You can point to the 1.6m non workers, but what number of them can or should be working? Even if you get them into full time employment and contributing you still need more "new" people as the non workers will also require a pension.

ljd1308 · August 23, 2016

6 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

Because the 12.8% highlighted comes from tax payment contributions, which is over and above NI contributions that was meant to fund the State Pension.

That's what i feared.

So basically people need to contribute twice as much as they do to their NI, otherwise they are stealing from Paul to pay Mary.

Edited August 23, 2016 by ljd1308

SgtRock · August 23, 2016

3 hours ago, ljd1308 said:

You have provided links....which is good and appreciated(I don't have time to read them now), but at the end of it, it is still based on your feelings or beliefs.

On the bolded bit:

You are literally asking the question how many somali immigrants earn 35k or more. You don't know for a fact they don't, you are just guessing, I could easily guess that all of them do....neither are based on facts. You are then taking your guesswork and applying it to every other immigrant group. So a belief of yours about one small group as morphed into something that applies for every immigrant in the UK.

This is what I refer to when I say feelings are more important than facts for some people.

It doesn't matter on an individual level anyway, it is cumulative. Those 14.7% of people that pay that tax rate don't just earn 35k to cover their own costs. One person could earn 70k and one could earn 10k putting the pair of them over the amount to cover their costs.

And you do not much about the Somali Immigrants in the UK. No more needs to be said.

You are correct, it does not matter on an individual level and that was never my point.

My point was that if only 14.7% of the working population having an income large enough to be classed as a Net Contributor to the UK ( as individuals ) then NO GROUP of Immigrants to the UK is Net Benefit. it is physically impossible.

Not withstanding that there will always be anomalies, for instance, there are only 2 immigrants from ( Place name ) in the UK. The both work in banking and pull salaries in excess of £150K

SgtRock · August 23, 2016

5 minutes ago, ljd1308 said:

I wasn't really looking to blame anyone, least of all pensioners. It's not a case of blaming, it's about finding a solution.

But what do you think was promised?

You can point to the 1.6m non workers, but what number of them can or should be working? Even if you get them into full time employment and contributing you still need more "new" people as the non workers will also require a pension.

They should all be working.

The reasons and blame as to why they are in this position are many and varied. There will be very few of those 1.6 + Millions who are not seeking work.

Baby steps. Get those in the UK into work. Then worry about bringing in New People. Nothing wrong with controlled immigration of people who have the skills, training and experience that the Country needs. Open borders with free movement is a recipe for disaster.

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