So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[AlexRich]

Just now, dick dasterdly said:

Agree entirely,  and I've said this on all threads since before the actual vote.

 

Which is why I was always in two minds about how to vote, and eventually decided not to vote.

 

But please feel free to assume that I was conned - either way....

 

I will.

 

It looks to me like working class people wanted to give the "man", the establishment, a kicking. But they've voted with the right wing of the Tory party and crypto-racist UKIP ... and the end result will not be £350 m a week into the NHS, it will be the dismantling of the NHS. And workers current rights.

[MissAndry]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

It looks to me like working class people wanted to give the "man", the establishment, a kicking. But they've voted with the right wing of the Tory party and crypto-racist UKIP ... and the end result will not be £350 m a week into the NHS, it will be the dismantling of the NHS. And workers current rights.

 

I'm with the Brexit voters in thinking that any change must be for the best, even if it wasn't the change we had in mind at the time of the vote. For many UK voters, including me, it would seem impossible that things could get any worse. I don't really care what the change is, I just want it to happen ASAP. Even if it were to be as extreme as the breakdown of society in the UK as we know it, civil war, or a totalitarian police state.

Edited September 4, 2016 by MissAndry

[SgtRock]

7 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

and the end result will not be £350 m a week into the NHS, it will be the dismantling of the NHS. And workers current rights.

 

I do not believe for one second that the majority of the 17 Million that voted to leave thought that the NHS would get an extra £350 Million a week.

 

One thing is certain, the NHS needs radical reform or it will HAVE to be privatised, it is unsustainable in its current form.

 

As for current workers rights. This is from Gus O'Donnell, former head of the Civil Service and now a cross Party Peer.

 

Quote

On Saturday, he said leaving would mean “a huge administrative and legislative change” because of the vast amount of EU law that had been implemented over the last 40 years. As a result, he said he believed the UK would keep them in place even if it did officially leave the bloc.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/27/brexit-is-not-inevitable-says-former-civil-service-chief

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

The implosion of the Euro is hardly guaranteed, it could adapt to exclude countries in the South of Europe and continue to survive. The EU is going through difficulties, but not one's that are insurmountable ... so like every economic area, it can recover. 

 

 

 

 

Ha ha! You're consistent, Alex, I'll give you that. Everything the EU touches turns into the finest perfume, and everything the UK touches (except for the EU of course) turns into rabbit droppings, right?

[AlexRich]

33 minutes ago, MissAndry said:

 

I'm with the Brexit voters in thinking that any change must be for the best, even if it wasn't the change we had in mind at the time of the vote. For many UK voters, including me, it would seem impossible that things could get any worse. I don't really care what the change is, I just want it to happen ASAP. Even if it were to be as extreme as the breakdown of society in the UK as we know it, civil war, or a totalitarian police state.

 

The National Socialists in Germany brought change in the 1930's. Beware of what you wish for?

 

The Brexiteers are stating how great the UK economy is, how great employment is ... but you talk as if the country was on its knees ... well at least you are now living your last wish.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, MissAndry said:

 

I'm with the Brexit voters in thinking that any change must be for the best, even if it wasn't the change we had in mind at the time of the vote. For many UK voters, including me, it would seem impossible that things could get any worse. I don't really care what the change is, I just want it to happen ASAP. Even if it were to be as extreme as the breakdown of society in the UK as we know it, civil war, or a totalitarian police state.

Ridiculous post that is on a par with AlexRich's posts denigrating anyone that doesn't agree with his POV as having a low IQ.

[dick dasterdly]

Personally, I believe all those who believed 'the establishment' that Brexit would immediately result in the UK collapsing - have an extremely low IQ.  Especially now that their statements were proven wrong .

 

Obviously I don't believe this (apart from the odd poster) - but I'm trying to make the point that its not only offensive (and will turn the odd 'neutral' such as myself into getting seriously peed off with those making this claim), but also shows that those making those claims are far from the 'sharpest knives in the drawer'.

[AlexRich]

15 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Personally, I believe all those who believed 'the establishment' that Brexit would immediately result in the UK collapsing - have an extremely low IQ.  Especially now that their statements were proven wrong .

 

Obviously I don't believe this (apart from the odd poster) - but I'm trying to make the point that its not only offensive (and will turn the odd 'neutral' such as myself into getting seriously peed off with those making this claim), but also shows that those making those claims are far from the 'sharpest knives in the drawer'.

 

Take a look at the vox pop's on you tube of brexit supporters ... it's all about sending home immigrants ... they are hardly the cream of the nation's collective intelligence, are they? But that's who they needed to cross the line, so they campaigned largely on immigration to get their collective pulses racing. I recall the Daily Mail, on the eve of the vote, deliberately mis-quoted some asylum seeker on their front page [and then made a small correction a day or two later]... why? To stir up emotions about immigration.

 

What you don't like is that you were on the same side as the thick and ignorant elements of British society ... that's hardly my fault. 

[AlexRich]

40 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Ridiculous post that is on a par with AlexRich's posts denigrating anyone that doesn't agree with his POV as having a low IQ.

 

Not all. I can't accuse the right wing Tories or the racist UKIP of being stupid ... they were very clever in conning the masses into believing their crap about 'the establishment' ... as they will see when the NHS gets hit and their rights as workers get repealed. 

[AlexRich]

"Japan pulls no punches in a 15-page report, warning that companies may leave the UK if Brexit negotiations are unsatisfactory".

 

That was taken today from the Sky News website. One of Rupert Murdoch's vehicles lest anyone accuse me of using bias sources.

 

It won't happen today of course ... as has been stated, these issues are for the future - but they are very real. I wonder how well that will go down in Sunderland? With Nissan and Toshiba big employers.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

Ha ha! You're consistent, Alex, I'll give you that. Everything the EU touches turns into the finest perfume, and everything the UK touches (except for the EU of course) turns into rabbit droppings, right?

 

See my post on the warning delivered by Japan today ... looks like their companies will be abandoning the HMS Great Britain if the negotiations go awry. As I said, they want access to Europe, not Blighty! 

[AlexRich]

2 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

I do not believe for one second that the majority of the 17 Million that voted to leave thought that the NHS would get an extra £350 Million a week.

 

One thing is certain, the NHS needs radical reform or it will HAVE to be privatised, it is unsustainable in its current form.

 

As for current workers rights. This is from Gus O'Donnell, former head of the Civil Service and now a cross Party Peer.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/27/brexit-is-not-inevitable-says-former-civil-service-chief

 

One of the reasons the right wing of the Tory party wanted out of Europe is that they think it too socialist ... they will repeal workers rights as soon as we are out. Gus O'Donnel is not a brexit supporter.

[autanic]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

I was referring to Guest House, not you.

 

No problem. I retract.

[sandyf]

51 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

See my post on the warning delivered by Japan today ... looks like their companies will be abandoning the HMS Great Britain if the negotiations go awry. As I said, they want access to Europe, not Blighty! 

I doubt if there is much of a problem on that score. Everyone is of the opinion that TM will carry out what she says and she has stated quite clearly that brexit must work for Northern Ireland and Scotland, in other words free movement.

Leave the EU to satisfy the referendum, join EFTA and its a done deal, everyone happy, well as near as it will ever get.

[SgtRock]

48 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

One of the reasons the right wing of the Tory party wanted out of Europe is that they think it too socialist ... they will repeal workers rights as soon as we are out. Gus O'Donnel is not a brexit supporter.

 

Whether O'Donnell is Pro or Anti Brexit is neither here nor there.

 

As a cross Party Peer he will probably have a better understanding of what is happening behind the scenes over any of the posters on this thread.

 

What he is saying makes a lot of sense and saves time and a fortune in trying to unravel 40 years of EU Laws, rules and regulations.

 

So you will have to forgive me if I do not give your speculation on the repealing of workers rights much credence. I am not saying that it would never happen, but at the moment it nothing but unfounded speculation.

[autanic]

I might have low IQ, I don't know never tested.

 

I do know what I can see in front of me and what I read and what I hear.

 

The EU of today started out as a fantastic idea.  Create and foster trading links so strong, within a small number of nations, where rather than competing for economic supremacy, worked together and traded together for the mutual economic good, which would provide peace and prosperity.  Job Done.

 

If the EU had stayed as originally intended, I would have voted to remain. In essence it is a perfect ideal and was achieved very quickly.

 

Then some bright spark turned it into an member of one EU Country can work and live in another. When your dealing with the likes of France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Holland, Denmark, Sweden and Ireland. They are all more or less the same as the UK in terms of living standards and wealth. So the remit went from a trading block to right to live and work. Still not really a problem.

 

Then over time, EU directives started to become well cumbersome. Example: The EU cookie directive, which states every website in the EU must display a cookie warning the visitor that a tiny file giving non personal information would be collected every time they visit it.  This means that web browsers not spend an average of 16 hours a year, click off the notice to accept cookies.  Pointless !

 

Or that fish can only be caught on a certain number of days a year, of a certain type, of a certain size other wise, the fish caught by mistake have to thrown dead back into the sea.  What an obtuse waste of life, not to mention harm to the oceans and seas.

 

As the EU took more power, Maastricht, Lisbon etc so the power and intrusion of the EU encroach on this once successful trading block.

 

New members joined the European Union. Poland, Greece, Cyprus, Latvia, Romania and the parity between the member nations changed. Inevitably freedom of movement, which was abused. Workers in the original nine found that there jobs could be undercut by a new countries member willing and used to working for less.

 

Resentment grows. 

 

Immigrations should be slow and intergrated, see below :

 

Year Pre-900 AD  Population of England (what (Saxons, Vikings, Celts)

Year 1066 (166 years later)  Population of England added (Normans) to form Anglo Saxons

Year 1500 (500 years or so later) Irish Immigration Starts

Year 1900 (400 years later), Jewish, French Immigrations starts)

Year 1950 (50 years later), Afro Caribbean immigrations starts)

Year 1960 (10 years later) Indian and Pakistani immigrations starts)

Year 1990 (30 years later) Somalian immigrations starts)

Year 2003 (13 years later) Polish and Eastern European Immigrations starts

Year 2008 (5 years later) Romanian and Bulgarian Immigrations starts

Year 2008 - 2016   Large numbers of immigrants from all over the world, Syria, Afghanistan, Eritrea.

 

The process of integration has failed. The new arrivals have no idea what is it is to English and so they denatured the countries culture. Religious extremism where women regulary now where full islamic gowns and cover their faces, were unknown 20 years ago.

 

Resentment grown to a tipping point.  Anyone whos dares say anything is instantly branded a racist and so the resentment bubbles hidden under the surface.

 

This is the problem with England, but it extends into every country in Western Europe, especially now Germany.

 

Watch this space . . . 

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Whether O'Donnell is Pro or Anti Brexit is neither here nor there.

 

As a cross Party Peer he will probably have a better understanding of what is happening behind the scenes over any of the posters on this thread.

 

What he is saying makes a lot of sense and saves time and a fortune in trying to unravel 40 years of EU Laws, rules and regulations.

 

So you will have to forgive me if I do not give your speculation on the repealing of workers rights much credence. I am not saying that it would never happen, but at the moment it nothing but unfounded speculation.

 

The Government themselves are just trying to work out what they want ... i.e. what Brexit means for them. O'Donnel has no more knowledge of what will result from brexit than any of the rest of us. In that respect, everything relating to any future event is speculation.

 

[autanic]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The Government themselves are just trying to work out what they want ... i.e. what Brexit means for them. O'Donnel has no more knowledge of what will result from brexit than any of the rest of us. In that respect, everything relating to any future event is speculation.

 

 

Agreed. If anyone has the foggiest idea of what happens next, let the rest of us know, so we can get rich too.

[AlexRich]

8 minutes ago, sandyf said:

I doubt if there is much of a problem on that score. Everyone is of the opinion that TM will carry out what she says and she has stated quite clearly that brexit must work for Northern Ireland and Scotland, in other words free movement.

Leave the EU to satisfy the referendum, join EFTA and its a done deal, everyone happy, well as near as it will ever get.

 

Boris Johnson sent his plans to May a day or so ago, and strangely they were leaked to the press (no surprise there, really). He wants a complete separation from Europe and no free movement ... there will be a split in the Tory party if free movement is retained ... I really can't see that happening unless the economic effects of brexit are felt to be so negative that the Government feels that they can give way on that point. The zealots would hate that. In my view that is the reason that Leave won the vote - immigration concerns.

 

 

 

[autanic]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Boris Johnson sent his plans to May a day or so ago, and strangely they were leaked to the press (no surprise there, really). He wants a complete separation from Europe and no free movement ... there will be a split in the Tory party if free movement is retained ... I really can't see that happening unless the economic effects of brexit are felt to be so negative that the Government feels that they can give way on that point. The zealots would hate that. In my view that is the reason that Leave won the vote - immigration concerns.

 

 

 

 

Free movement is a RED LINE. If the EU tries to say you can only access the single market, with free movement. Then its WTO tariffs.

 

We do a lot of business with china, soon perhaps establish a trading arrangement with them, can you imagine the shock and horror if attached to that trading arrangement, there was a clause that stated any Chinese Citizen could live and work in the UK and vice versa.  Imagine 1.3 billion able to jump on a plane and come here.  This is why now we are negotiating our freedom from the EU, free movement has to end.

 

Those that were resident in the UK on or before the day of the referendum should be entitled to stay, everyone else file an application and spin the dice. We might want you, we might not. At least it is a choice of the people who have to live next door to them and not by a faceless official in Brussels.

[SgtRock]

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

The Government themselves are just trying to work out what they want ... i.e. what Brexit means for them. O'Donnel has no more knowledge of what will result from brexit than any of the rest of us. In that respect, everything relating to any future event is speculation.

 

 

I never said a word about what O'Donnell knows about Brexit or otherwise.

 

I made a specific reference to what he said.

 

3 hours ago, SgtRock said:

Quote

On Saturday, he said leaving would mean “a huge administrative and legislative change” because of the vast amount of EU law that had been implemented over the last 40 years. As a result, he said he believed the UK would keep them in place even if it did officially leave the bloc.

 

 

Which was in direct response to your unfounded assertion that workers rights would be destroyed.

 

I will repeat what I said above. What O'Donnell says above makes sense in every way. It would be totally foolish to try and unravel 40 years of EU laws, rules and regulations.

[SgtRock]

15 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Boris Johnson sent his plans to May a day or so ago, and strangely they were leaked to the press (no surprise there, really)

 

Any link to this ?

[autanic]

1 minute ago, SgtRock said:

 

I never said a word about what O'Donnell knows about Brexit or otherwise.

 

I made a specific reference to what he said.

 

 

Which was in direct response to your unfounded assertion that workers rights would be destroyed.

 

I will repeat what I said above. What O'Donnell says above makes sense in every way. It would be totally foolish to try and unravel 40 years of EU laws, rules and regulations.

 

A good solution is the one that India followed after the cessation fro the British Empire.  They implemented all the British Laws into India Law and then setup a committee to reform and abolish the laws which they no longer wanted. They are still at it after 70 years or so of independence, such is the mammoth task.

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

I never said a word about what O'Donnell knows about Brexit or otherwise.

 

I made a specific reference to what he said.

 

 

Which was in direct response to your unfounded assertion that workers rights would be destroyed.

 

I will repeat what I said above. What O'Donnell says above makes sense in every way. It would be totally foolish to try and unravel 40 years of EU laws, rules and regulations.

 

O'Donnell is making a self-serving statement. He doesn't want EU rules repealed. My point is that the right wing of the Tory party want out of the EU so that they can change the social contract (amongst other things) ... irrespective of EU rules and regulations. They will keep what they like, and drop what they don't.

[SgtRock]

3 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

O'Donnell is making a self-serving statement. He doesn't want EU rules repealed. My point is that the right wing of the Tory party want out of the EU so that they can change the social contract (amongst other things) ... irrespective of EU rules and regulations. They will keep what they like, and drop what they don't.

 

And you can back this up with an independent source ?

 

Otherwise it is nothing more than speculation and does not actually provide anything of substance to the thread.

[AlexRich]

14 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Any link to this ?

 

I read it online. I'll see if I can find it ... a newspaper I believe.

[AlexRich]

17 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Any link to this ?

 

Found it ... in the Daily Mail today. 

[AlexRich]

10 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

And you can back this up with an independent source ?

 

Otherwise it is nothing more than speculation and does not actually provide anything of substance to the thread.

 

No one can "prove" anything on this thread ... in which case it is all, to a greater or lesser extent, speculative. But that doesn't mean that the opinion expressed is incorrect.

 

For example, I stated that many companies with EU HQ in the UK will move if they do not have free access to the EU market. That's speculative on  your terms ... in the sense that I can't show you an internal document from a company confirming that they are doing this ... but it's logical and common sense that some would do so ... and was one of the points raised by politicians and journalists who oppose leaving the EU.

 

Check out Sky News today. Japan has warned the UK that if the terms do not include free access they have companies in the UK that will move to Europe. So, you might think it speculative, but it seems to be correct. 

 

 

[Ronuk]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/19/government-awaits-first-legal-opposition-to-brexit-in-high-court

[AlexRich]

33 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Any link to this ?

 

Apologies, Daily Mail and Times yesterday ... and probably in some other dailies.