So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[SgtRock]

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Apologies, Daily Mail and Times yesterday ... and probably in some other dailies.

 

 

 

I am not finding anything about Johnsons leaked plan.

 

I would have thought that such a monumental disclosure would have been splashed everywhere.

[AlexRich]

Just now, SgtRock said:

 

I am not finding anything about Johnsons leaked plan.

 

I would have thought that such a monumental disclosure would have been splashed everywhere.

 

"Boris Johnson has privately warned Theresa May that she must reject calls for Britain to stay in the single market and veto any Brexit deal that requires the country to pay into EU budgets.

The foreign secretary set out his red lines for a Brexit deal in a personal letter to Mrs May weeks after she rescued his political career by appointing him to her cabinet. The correspondence is the first substantive leak from Mrs May’s administration.

In the letter, the foreign secretary highlighted four areas that should be non-negotiable in the upcoming Brexit negotiations: proper controls over immigration from…"

Quote from the Times 3 Sep 2016.

 

[AlexRich]

3 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

I am not finding anything about Johnsons leaked plan.

 

I would have thought that such a monumental disclosure would have been splashed everywhere.

 

Did you think I made it up? ;-)

[Orac]

 

No one can "prove" anything on this thread ... in which case it is all, to a greater or lesser extent, speculative. But that doesn't mean that the opinion expressed is incorrect.

 

For example, I stated that many companies with EU HQ in the UK will move if they do not have free access to the EU market. That's speculative on  your terms ... in the sense that I can't show you an internal document from a company confirming that they are doing this ... but it's logical and common sense that some would do so ... and was one of the points raised by politicians and journalists who oppose leaving the EU.

 

Check out Sky News today. Japan has warned the UK that if the terms do not include free access they have companies in the UK that will move to Europe. So, you might think it speculative, but it seems to be correct. 

 

 

No need for Sky News as you can get it straight from the horses mouth in english. The Japanese seem to be making it clear that they want nothing to change.

http://www.mofa.go.jp/files/000185466.pdf

[SgtRock]

6 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Did you think I made it up? ;-)

 Not at all

 

I just found it rather perturbing that such a monumental leak as Johnsons brexit plan was not splashed everywhere.

 

Quote

Boris Johnson sent his plans to May a day or so ago, and strangely they were leaked to the press (no surprise there, really)

 

Then again. An email expressing 4 areas that should be non negotiable does not represent a plan to me. All that signifies to me is an email exchange expressing opinions and idea's.

 

So nowhere near an earth shattering monumental leak. So hardly surprising that it never made the National press.

[AlexRich]

44 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 Not at all

 

I just found it rather perturbing that such a monumental leak as Johnsons brexit plan was not splashed everywhere.

 

 

Then again. An email expressing 4 areas that should be non negotiable does not represent a plan to me. All that signifies to me is an email exchange expressing opinions and idea's.

 

So nowhere near an earth shattering monumental leak. So hardly surprising that it never made the National press.

 

Earth shattering monumental leak ... do you have evidence that I made that claim? Another strawman builder. Put words into someone's mouth so that you can knock them. 

 

it never made the national press! Not if your definition of national press is Pattaya News. But in the UK The Times and the Daily Mail are generally regarded as the national press.

 

But back to the point. Johnsons leaked letter to May is setting out plans to leave the EU market with no free movement. That means tariffs, and that causes problems for foreign companies in the UK. I'm sure business will have another view, as will other politicians in the Cabinet. About the leak, that was no doubt done on purpose ... we'll see more of this in the future.

 

 

 

 

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

Whether O'Donnell is Pro or Anti Brexit is neither here nor there.

 

As a cross Party Peer he will probably have a better understanding of what is happening behind the scenes over any of the posters on this thread.

 

What he is saying makes a lot of sense and saves time and a fortune in trying to unravel 40 years of EU Laws, rules and regulations.

 

So you will have to forgive me if I do not give your speculation on the repealing of workers rights much credence. I am not saying that it would never happen, but at the moment it nothing but unfounded speculation.

 

As is pretty much everything Alex posts.

[SgtRock]

12 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Earth shattering monumental leak ... do you have evidence that I made that claim? Another strawman builder. Put words into someone's mouth so that you can knock them. 

 

it never made the national press! Not if your definition of national press is Pattaya News. But in the UK The Times and the Daily Mail are generally regarded as the national press.

 

But back to the point. Johnsons leaked letter to May is setting out plans to leave the EU market with no free movement. That means tariffs, and that causes problems for foreign companies in the UK. I'm sure business will have another view, as will other politicians in the Cabinet. About the leak, that was no doubt done on purpose ... we'll see more of this in the future.

 

 

 

 

 

I do not need evidence that you said anything about an Earth shattering monumental leak, for the simple reason I never said you did.

 

I said it. For the sole reason that Johnsons Brexit plan would have been an Earth shattering monumental leak. What would actually trump that would be Johnson having any plan at this stage.

 

Just to reiterate

 

Quote

 An email expressing 4 areas that should be non negotiable does not represent a plan to me.

 

Expressing areas that SHOULD be non negotiable is not setting out anything, and it really should come as no surprise that free movement is one of those areas that are definitely going to get flogged to death.

 

I have never seen Pattaya News, never mind read it but it certainly would not come under the banner of UK National Press. Why you felt the need to throw that in is beyond me.

 

Whether Brexit means tariffs between the UK and the EU is still open to debate and is not as clear cut as you appear to make out. I would  be inclined to agree with you if the trade balance was reversed, as it stands at the moment trade tariffs will hurt the EU more than it will hurt the UK.

 

As I indicated earlier, by the time A50  is invoked, add in a 2 year negotiation period, who knows what state the EU is going to be in, trade tariffs might just be the last thing to worry about in Western Europe.

[Cletus]

The European Union is a financial dictatorship, great that UK could get out of it (well, not yet),  I wish more and more countries will follow.

[nausea]

So far I've only seen a depreciation in the value of the pound against the baht, but it's early days, I live in hope. What I really need to see is a significant decrease in immigration and a significant improvement in the NHS.  When I say decrease in immigration., I mean immigration that brings no benefit. I've nothing against hard-working guys and women who are willing to pay their way and adapt to British culture. The NHS thing is purely selfish,  I gave a lot, and now in my older days, I want something back.

[CWMcMurray]

Watch this watchcharaters then comment, the EU is on the verge of collapes anyway, this will push it over



[/url]Nothing about immigration

Real eye opener...

From USA, so not really follow EU or Brexit, but after watching this video, completely agree with the Brexit voters

Well worth taking an hour out of your life to watch this video... Nothing to do with racism or bigotry.. It a pure economic argument to leave the EU




Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

 

As is pretty much everything Alex posts.

 

Like when he "speculates" that companies with an EU HQ in the UK might leave if they don't get unfettered access to the EU market ... and the Japanese confirm that today? Expect some investment banks to follow suit.

[Richard W]

On 31/08/2016 at 3:04 PM, billd766 said:

 

Do you believe what you have written or is it your idea of a joke?

I thought the prospect of the exit team not being able to come up with anything better than the EU was actually taken quite seriously.  The report of a Brexit committee coming up with the idea of joining in the EU is, I think, to close to reality to be proper satire.  There are serious, valid doubts as to whether the UK will ultimately leave the EU, let alone the EEA.  The latest I'm hearing is that Article 50 will be invoked late in 2017, not early as I'm sure many had expected.

On 31/08/2016 at 6:36 PM, autanic said:

I believe he was murdered, by no other reason than he was Polish, by Murderous Teens, who should be locked up for the rest of their miserable insignificant lives.

<snip>

Thise than voted for brexit want to be self governing which is a world and a half away from what these murderers have done this poor man.

I can well believe that the best chance of reducing East European immigration is to trash the British economy and make the place unwelcome to them.  It's a a sad way of going about things.  I for one don't trust the politicians to deliver a meaningful Brexit.

 

On the other hand, if I was going to beat someone up for fun, I can well imagine telling him that we hate his kind, regardless of my true feelings.

On 01/09/2016 at 7:22 AM, AlexRich said:

There were other issues of course, and some people with no concern for immigration voted Leave based on them ... but my point is that immigration concerns ... e.g. Turkey joining (a lie) won the day. 

Turkey was being given the impression that it would soon be able to join.  If the Council (or Commission?) was lying to Turkey that the prospects of Turkey joining soon were good, they cannot complain if other people believe them.

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

 

I do not need evidence that you said anything about an Earth shattering monumental leak, for the simple reason I never said you did.

 

I said it. For the sole reason that Johnsons Brexit plan would have been an Earth shattering monumental leak. What would actually trump that would be Johnson having any plan at this stage.

 

Just to reiterate

 

 

Expressing areas that SHOULD be non negotiable is not setting out anything, and it really should come as no surprise that free movement is one of those areas that are definitely going to get flogged to death.

 

I have never seen Pattaya News, never mind read it but it certainly would not come under the banner of UK National Press. Why you felt the need to throw that in is beyond me.

 

Whether Brexit means tariffs between the UK and the EU is still open to debate and is not as clear cut as you appear to make out. I would  be inclined to agree with you if the trade balance was reversed, as it stands at the moment trade tariffs will hurt the EU more than it will hurt the UK.

 

As I indicated earlier, by the time A50  is invoked, add in a 2 year negotiation period, who knows what state the EU is going to be in, trade tariffs might just be the last thing to worry about in Western Europe.

 

You made a comment about the leaked letter not being in the national press ... given that I gave you two national press references, the comment makes no sense. I wondered aloud how you define national press? 

 

Johnson is indicating to May what he believes Brexit should be ... a letter that was leaked to the press. He favours pulling out of the single market completely, no free movement and no paying contributions. He's sending a message to the rank and file that he is not backsliding. I guess he doesn't want to get the blame if it all goes wrong. 

 

 

 

 

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, Richard W said:

 

Turkey was being given the impression that it would soon be able to join.  If the Council (or Commission?) was lying to Turkey that the prospects of Turkey joining soon were good, they cannot complain if other people believe them.

 

There was more chance of Erdogan joining ISIS than Turkey joining the EU. Another immigration scare to steer the vote.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Boris Johnson sent his plans to May a day or so ago, and strangely they were leaked to the press (no surprise there, really). He wants a complete separation from Europe and no free movement ... there will be a split in the Tory party if free movement is retained ... I really can't see that happening unless the economic effects of brexit are felt to be so negative that the Government feels that they can give way on that point. The zealots would hate that. In my view that is the reason that Leave won the vote - immigration concerns.

 

 

 

TM has an election to win and she is not going to get that from the leave camp, she just cannot afford to alienate the the remain camp any further. Free movement is her only 'get out of jail' card. From now on in it will be a damage limitation exercise.

[sandyf]

1 hour ago, AlexRich said:

 

You made a comment about the leaked letter not being in the national press ... given that I gave you two national press references, the comment makes no sense. I wondered aloud how you define national press? 

 

Johnson is indicating to May what he believes Brexit should be ... a letter that was leaked to the press. He favours pulling out of the single market completely, no free movement and no paying contributions. He's sending a message to the rank and file that he is not backsliding. I guess he doesn't want to get the blame if it all goes wrong. 

 

 

 

 

Another good indication that it is being discussed.

[Jip99]

14 minutes ago, sandyf said:

TM has an election to win and she is not going to get that from the leave camp, she just cannot afford to alienate the the remain camp any further. Free movement is her only 'get out of jail' card. From now on in it will be a damage limitation exercise.

 

 

I think you lived in a parallel universe.

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Like when he "speculates" that companies with an EU HQ in the UK might leave if they don't get unfettered access to the EU market ... and the Japanese confirm that today? Expect some investment banks to follow suit.

 

Alex, it's more talk. Where's the action? The only significant post-brexit-vote action we've had from Japan is a major investment. That's action, Alex, not talk, Alex. Understand the difference, Alex? Do you want to understand the difference, Alex?

[autanic]

8 hours ago, Richard W said:

I thought the prospect of the exit team not being able to come up with anything better than the EU was actually taken quite seriously.  The report of a Brexit committee coming up with the idea of joining in the EU is, I think, to close to reality to be proper satire.  There are serious, valid doubts as to whether the UK will ultimately leave the EU, let alone the EEA.  The latest I'm hearing is that Article 50 will be invoked late in 2017, not early as I'm sure many had expected.

I can well believe that the best chance of reducing East European immigration is to trash the British economy and make the place unwelcome to them.  It's a a sad way of going about things.  I for one don't trust the politicians to deliver a meaningful Brexit.

 

On the other hand, if I was going to beat someone up for fun, I can well imagine telling him that we hate his kind, regardless of my true feelings.

Turkey was being given the impression that it would soon be able to join.  If the Council (or Commission?) was lying to Turkey that the prospects of Turkey joining soon were good, they cannot complain if other people believe them.

Thats a little like setting fire to the house to stop, junk mail. 

[autanic]

2 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Alex, it's more talk. Where's the action? The only significant post-brexit-vote action we've had from Japan is a major investment. That's action, Alex, not talk, Alex. Understand the difference, Alex? Do you want to understand the difference, Alex?

 

Thats for Alex to answer.  

 

I think that Brexit was talked down by the remain camp so much pre-referendum, that were all just a little in shock that the sky hasn't fallen in post Brexit. 

 

Can I just say that Germany is the only Country in the EU, where I would 100% not move from the UK to. The rise of the far right reminds me a lot of the Hitler days pre WWII.

It started like this, economic and scape goating, a religious minoity, last time is was us Jews, now it's the Muslims.

 

I really hope history does not repeat itself.

 

France is even further down the facist line.  God help us.  The UK is the only Country in the UK, where I would headquarter my business..

[cumgranosalum]

12 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

"Boris Johnson has privately warned Theresa May that she must reject calls for Britain to stay in the single market and veto any Brexit deal that requires the country to pay into EU budgets.

The foreign secretary set out his red lines for a Brexit deal in a personal letter to Mrs May weeks after she rescued his political career by appointing him to her cabinet. The correspondence is the first substantive leak from Mrs May’s administration.

In the letter, the foreign secretary highlighted four areas that should be non-negotiable in the upcoming Brexit negotiations: proper controls over immigration from…"

Quote from the Times 3 Sep 2016.

 

As countries like Norway actually pay almost as much per capita as UK does, I would think that is unlikely to happen - and we may of course now have to join Schengen

Edited September 4, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Alex, it's more talk. Where's the action? The only significant post-brexit-vote action we've had from Japan is a major investment. That's action, Alex, not talk, Alex. Understand the difference, Alex? Do you want to understand the difference, Alex?

So you are of the opinion that an official letter to the UK government does not constitute an action.

 

The letter warns: "Japanese businesses with their European headquarters in the UK may decide to transfer their head-office function to Continental Europe if EU laws cease to be applicable in the UK after its withdrawal."

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37270372

[sandyf]

G20: Is Theresa May changing the language of Brexit?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37270060

[SgtRock]

20 hours ago, SgtRock said:

The UK's Private Pension woes have been going on a lot longer than Brexit was even mentioned.

 

Note the 2 specific dates 2000 and 2008.

 

Perhaps you should concern yourself with the spanking that Merkel and her coalition are going to get in today's Regional election.

 

There you go Guesthouse.

 

Just as I predicted yesterday. Merkel got her @ss handed to her on a plate in a region that has one of the lowest immigration figures in Germany. Not only does this Region have one of the lowest immigration rates, it is also the home of Merkel's power base. Guess how that is going to translate Country wide ? 

 

Quote

Projections late on Sunday night saw the centre-left SPD on 30.5%, the anti-immigration AfD on 20.9%, and the chancellor’s centre-right CDU suffering its all-time lowest result in the eastern state, on 19%. Earlier this year, the CDU had looked like the party most likely to be tasked with forming the next government in the state.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/04/mecklenburg-vorpommern-german-anti-immigrant-party-strong-regional-election-exit-polls-merkel

 

Top Tip for you.

 

Start worrying about Germany and forget Brexit.

 

The UK, despite hiccups along the way, will be fine in the end.

[SgtRock]

For all those that are espousing the it will take the UK decades to set up trade deals after Brexit.

 

Think again.

 

Quote

The Australian government is on track to agree one of the first trade deals with Britain after UK’s vote to leave the European Union, Malcolm Turnbull has said.

 

Quote

Turnbull said he and May had spoken about a trade deal shortly after May became prime minister and planning was “already well advanced”.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/05/australia-to-seal-early-trade-deal-with-britain-after-brexit-predicts-turnbull

 

I have no doubt whatsover, that this is being replicated throughout the rest of the World, where the UK has deemed it a priority to have trade deals in place. Ready to roll on the day the official divorce takes place.

 

It might do some people a world of good to kick their pessimism to the kerb and replace it with a large dollop of optimism.

Edited September 5, 2016 by SgtRock

[AlexRich]

5 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

Alex, it's more talk. Where's the action? The only significant post-brexit-vote action we've had from Japan is a major investment. That's action, Alex, not talk, Alex. Understand the difference, Alex? Do you want to understand the difference, Alex?

 

Do you understand the term 'time lag', the idea that economic consequences don't happen in an instant? Do you want to understand?

 

And you think I'm hilarious? What would a foreign company with a UK European headquarters do after the vote? Start packing and transferring staff, or wait and see what the outcome will be? Common sense tells you they will wait and see, so why would the fact that none have packed up and left two months after the vote indicate anything? But what Japan are warning is that if the outcome disadvantages them they will go ... and they are not the only ones who will do so, they are just the first to indicate it. 

 

As for investment. The WPP advertising head has said they will invest less in the UK, as has Ryan Air, as have Virgin Money ... and Siemens shelved an investment in Hull after the vote. And that's just off the top of my head. Do you believe that inward investment will be greater in 2017 than 2016, or less? 

 

Your argument is unravelling in front of you ... and time is not your friend as we will see more of these warnings.

 

 

 

 

 

[SgtRock]

18 minutes ago, sandyf said:

G20: Is Theresa May changing the language of Brexit?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37270060

 

From your link

 

Quote

So, for example, the government could opt formally out of free movement entirely, but agree a deal that in practice makes it relatively straightforward for EU workers to come to the UK on a scale controlled by ministers.

 

I will have a guess here. I think that is called '' Controlled Migration ''

 

If you are required for a specialised job, your employer can apply for a work visa and sponsor you throughout your stay in the UK. It is common sense.

 

It is what the vast majority of those in favour of Brexit ( less the small % of village idiots ) have been calling for all along. 

[AlexRich]

14 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

For all those that are espousing the it will take the UK decades to set up trade deals after Brexit.

 

Think again.

 

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/sep/05/australia-to-seal-early-trade-deal-with-britain-after-brexit-predicts-turnbull

 

I have no doubt whatsover, that this is being replicated throughout the rest of the World, where the UK has deemed it a priority to have trade deals in place. Ready to roll on the day the official divorce takes place.

 

It might do some people a world of good to kick their pessimism to the kerb and replace it with a large dollop of optimism.

 

Great ... Kangaroo meat ... that'll go down a storm. 

 

Seriously, a trade deal with Australia vs a 500 m plus European market ... there is no comparison.

 

As for trade deals, the 'experts' (sorry, I know they are unpopular) say otherwise ... it takes many years to have these in place ... a decade for many. 

 

 

 

[MissAndry]

Just now, AlexRich said:

Seriously, a trade deal with Australia vs a 500 m plus European market ... there is no comparison.

 

 

I remember the days when all our Lamb came from New Zealand and all the beef came from Argentina.

Great meat, great prices.