So what did the Brexit supporters gain?

[cumgranosalum]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

I think the issue for governing politicians in some of the wealthiest EU countries is that a lot of them are probably going to be out of a job soon. And they will have been replaced by politicians on an EU reform (particularly on free movement) ticket, on which they will be expected to deliver. At that point, the EU is going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

"EU is going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place." -Stuck? -  better introduce free movement then?

Edited September 25, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

 

Coming out of the customs union is a no brainer, it has to happen to be able to conduct your own FTA

What is curious  is the timing, considering a new post of international trade secretary I would have thought it was a given.It is not re assuring if this is being confirmed now  that the government is  anywhere close to start  its negotation

 

On the same theme I wonder how the  Irish border will be kept soft and non eu goods prevented from  entering

 

It'a rumour at the moment.

[Khun Han]

What are you enjoying, Cumgranosalum? And is it legal?

[AlexRich]

He's enjoying hoisting a hypocrite by his own petard. 

[Khun Han]

3 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

Is Boris Johnson correct about elections next year

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-sets-another-article-50-date-despite-theresa-may-slapping-him-down-for-doing-this-last-time_uk_57e78573e4b0e81629a9ee08?ir=UK+Politics&utm_hp_ref=uk-politics

 

If may 2017 is the date ,it would be nearly one since  the referendum

 

 

Not sure what you're saying Robin. The European Parliament elections are in May 2019. Or are you referring to the date you think Article 50 will be triggered?

[AlexRich]

Brexit means ... ?

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/city-figures-hit-out-theresa-may-over-lack-of-clarity-on-brexit-strategy

[Khun Han]

I reckon the grauniad has a hack working full time phoning round well-known remain supporters, getting them to spout whatever comes into their heads about why brexit is bad, to aid it's comical little rearguard action.

 

Meanwhile, the "false dawn" economy just keeps on false dawning, and the remainers look ever more stupid and desperate as the EU's implosion gets ever closer.

[Linzz]

20 hours ago, cumgranosalum said:

Han & Rock - peas in a pogrom - your concerns seem mainly Xenophobic or it it simply Teutophobia?...i don't really see any other rational in your prolific if rather blinkered postings. Whoops! forgot islamophobia too?

 

Been reading Hillary's Basket of Deplorables playbook?

[rockingrobin]

13 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

 

Coming out of the customs union is a no brainer, it has to happen to be able to conduct your own FTA

What is curious  is the timing, considering a new post of international trade secretary I would have thought it was a given.It is not re assuring if this is being confirmed now  that the government is  anywhere close to start  its negotation

 

On the same theme I wonder how the  Irish border will be kept soft and non eu goods prevented from  entering

 

12 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

It'a rumour at the moment.

Liam Fox has mentioned the need to come out of the customs union before, and is opinion on this would seem rather logical.At present whilst UK is in the customs union it cannot agree any separate trade deals ,making the position of international trade secretary and himself redundant.

What is the point of countries starting informal talks on trade if they dont know that he has the power to make  any agreements.

[AlexRich]

Complain about Guardian articles ... but not the Daily Mail, Telegraph and Sunday Telegraph ... also reporting on the less than glowing consequences of Brexit? Hypocrite alert? 

[Orac]

Liam Fox has mentioned the need to come out of the customs union before, and is opinion on this would seem rather logical.At present whilst UK is in the customs union it cannot agree any separate trade deals ,making the position of international trade secretary and himself redundant.

What is the point of countries starting informal talks on trade if they dont know that he has the power to make  any agreements.

The WTO bit needs to be done in conjunction with brexit negotiations anyway since it will include the WTO agreeing to a new external tariff for the UK which needs extensive consultation with UK industry bodies - a huge task which alone could take a couple of years to do at least.

It is not as simple as just adopting the EU external tariff since this create major problems for many imported goods which could suddenly shoot up in price, particularly agricultural products/foodstuffs.

[rockingrobin]

34 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

The WTO bit needs to be done in conjunction with brexit negotiations anyway since it will include the WTO agreeing to a new external tariff for the UK which needs extensive consultation with UK industry bodies - a huge task which alone could take a couple of years to do at least.

It is not as simple as just adopting the EU external tariff since this create major problems for many imported goods which could suddenly shoot up in price, particularly agricultural products/foodstuffs.
 

 

The issue being whilst we remain a member of the customs union we cannot obtain any agreements independently , they have to be concluded by the customs union on behalf of their members.The government at present has not stated its intentions with regards the custom unions leaving the international trade minister unable to fully carry out is role  and potential countries looking to do a trade not fully sure what the UK position is.

 

[Orac]

The issue being whilst we remain a member of the customs union we cannot obtain any agreements independently , they have to be concluded by the customs union on behalf of their members.The government at present has not stated its intentions with regards the custom unions leaving the international trade minister unable to fully carry out is role  and potential countries looking to do a trade not fully sure what the UK position is.

 

Any trade agreement will be difficult without an external tariff in place accepted by the WTO - how can you negotiate tariffs with another country if they don't know what yours are set at for non FTA access.

Also, should the WTO application be delayed, it will weaken our negotiating position with the EU on brexit since without it we have less options.

[Khun Han]

I note that there has not been one single attempt by any of the remainer posters on this thread to discuss Juncker's plan for a single state Europe. After a couple of days silence from them following Juncker's bombshell speech, we've gone back to the usual 'empty baked bean can' rattling and ranting from Alex, the 'out there' stuff from cumgranosalum (whatever he's smoking or drinking, I'm staying away from it), and some quite interesting discussion of the minutae of brexit from Robin and Orac. But what about the bigger picture? Who's cool with the UK becoming a serving region to an all-powerful European superstate, as explained by Juncker? Not me, for sure. Do the remainers even want to discuss it?

[cumgranosalum]

16 hours ago, Khun Han said:

What are you enjoying, Cumgranosalum? And is it legal?

Yes there has - and you've been roundly mocked for your naivety. - it is one of the Brexit cliche to wheel out when no arguments are to hand.

It assumes that it is inevitable and dreadful....like people who use the term "PC" in a derogatory sense.........

[cumgranosalum]

31 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

I note that there has not been one single attempt by any of the remainer posters on this thread to discuss Juncker's plan for a single state Europe. After a couple of days silence from them following Juncker's bombshell speech, we've gone back to the usual 'empty baked bean can' rattling and ranting from Alex, the 'out there' stuff from cumgranosalum (whatever he's smoking or drinking, I'm staying away from it), and some quite interesting discussion of the minutae of brexit from Robin and Orac. But what about the bigger picture? Who's cool with the UK becoming a serving region to an all-powerful European superstate, as explained by Juncker? Not me, for sure. Do the remainers even want to discuss it?

You shouldn't have voted leave then should you?

[Khun Han]

Cumgranosalum, stop smoking that .

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

I note that there has not been one single attempt by any of the remainer posters on this thread to discuss Juncker's plan for a single state Europe. After a couple of days silence from them following Juncker's bombshell speech, we've gone back to the usual 'empty baked bean can' rattling and ranting from Alex, the 'out there' stuff from cumgranosalum (whatever he's smoking or drinking, I'm staying away from it), and some quite interesting discussion of the minutae of brexit from Robin and Orac. But what about the bigger picture? Who's cool with the UK becoming a serving region to an all-powerful European superstate, as explained by Juncker? Not me, for sure. Do the remainers even want to discuss it?

 

Anyone who believes that Juncker calls the shots in Europe is a fool ... no one responded because he's a powerless figure in Europe ... more significant is what governments say. Juncker is the biggest 'red herring' in this debate ... he's an irrelevance. 

 

 

[Khun Han]

^ And on and on he rattles.

 

Apparently, it's not even about the EU any more! It's about individual states now! He'll say anything!

 

By the way, as though most people didn't know, Jean Claude Juncker is the president of the European Commission. His annual State speech (when he dropped his bombshell about the EU superstate) is often likened to the US President's annual State of the Union speech.

 

 

 

 

 

[SgtRock]

1 hour ago, Khun Han said:

But what about the bigger picture?

 

Interesting statement.

 

I posted this on Friday

 

On 9/23/2016 at 9:44 AM, SgtRock said:

 

She has no choice ?

 

I beg to differ.

 

She could invoke A 50 and start the 2 year process and let the legal challenge roll on during the 2 year exit period.

 

It is rather bizarre that all the pre vote claims of impending doom, that are now being backtracked on were made on the assumption that Cameron would invoke A 50 the day after the referendum. Cannot have it both ways.

 

The UK PM has said that there will be no U-Turn on Brexit. The EU ( Who want the UK out so that they can speed up the process of integration into a single EU Superstate, as per Junckers address to the Union speech last week. ) want the UK out soonest. Which way do you think the Court is going to judge ?

 

What do you think is going to happen in the EZ when the current totally ineffective euro 1.9 Trillion QE by the ECB comes to an end in March 2017 ? A bit of research will highlight that many economists had stated before the QE began in April 2015 that it was last chance saloon for the euro / EZ. I do not think I need to labour the point on the financial predicament that all EZ Countries are in with only real exception being Germany.

 

Further in 2017, Hollande will get the boot. Merkel, who many say is actually the glue that is holding the EU together will get the boot, if she is not forced out before Christmas. Throw in a spectacular in either France or Germany in the next year and the big time. Sadly, it is going to happen.

 

The V4 are making making serious noises about the EU, they are only interested in the money that they are receiving from the EU, when that dry's up OR the EU force migrant quota's on them, the V4 will become a totally different animal.

 

Greece . Nothing more to be said.

 

The ongoing migrant crisis that has switched to Italy but is largely being totally ignored by the MSM.

 

The EU is a basket case waiting to explode. The EU's answer is more EU. Recipe for disaster as most Countries do not want more EU, they want less.

 

A quick question for you, one that everyone else avoids like a dose of syphilis.

 

The only mantra that I am hearing is Free Trade, Single Market etc. If this is the most important aspect of the EU.

 

Why are all the Councils and committees not scrapped and superceded by a single trade commission which would cost peanuts ?

 

Edit to add:

 

If you want an uncanny parallel from recent history to where the EU is heading. Research the Role and reasons for Slovenia's part in the breakup of the former Yugoslavia.

 

Lots of bigger picture points that surprisingly, no-one wants to go near with a barge pole.

[AlexRich]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

^ And on and on he rattles.

 

Apparently, it's not even about the EU any more! It's about individual states now! He'll say anything!

 

By the way, as though most people didn't know, Jean Claude Juncker is the president of the European Commission. His annual State speech (when he dropped his bombshell about the EU superstate) is often likened to the US President's annual State of the Union speech.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll repeat for the hard of hearing ... Juncker is an irrelevance ... he acts only with the authority of the member states ... an empty vessel. 

 

But back to my favourite subject ... your hypocrisy. Are you not the one who is always going on about how Germany will make sure that trading relations between the UK and Europe are beneficial to their car manufacturers? So, it's not about the EU anymore, it's about member states? Now you're suggesting that the "all powerful" Juncker calls the shots ... does that mean that German car manufacturers will now have no say whatsoever? Or the German Chancellor?

 

"what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive".

 

 ... you are all over the place.

 

Quote: Sir Walter Scott ... just in case the citation nazi is reading!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Khun Han]

Anyone new to these debates can see here, in a nutshell, why nobody on the brexit side of the debate takes Alex seriously. One minute he's claiming that the EU is an incredibly powerful entity that easily overcomes problems and will have it all it's own way in brexit negotiations. The next minute, he's claiming actually, no, the EU is a toothless tiger with no real power or influence. He'll say anything to fit his argument, he's all over the place!

 

Expect him to ask for citation where he used the phrases 'incredibly powerful' and 'toothless tiger' in a pathetic attempt at diversion .

[Khun Han]

24 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Interesting statement.

 

I posted this on Friday

 

 

Lots of bigger picture points that surprisingly, no-one wants to go near with a barge pole.

 

They won't, Sgt, because they want everybody to believe that the EU is just one nice, big club of friendly nations working together, for each other toward blissful unity.

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

Anyone new to these debates can see here, in a nutshell, why nobody on the brexit side of the debate takes Alex seriously. One minute he's claiming that the EU is an incredibly powerful entity that easily overcomes problems and will have it all it's own way in brexit negotiations. The next minute, he's claiming actually, no, the EU is a toothless tiger with no real power or influence. He'll say anything to fit his argument, he's all over the place!

 

Expect him to ask for citation where he used the phrases 'incredibly powerful' and 'toothless tiger' in a pathetic attempt at diversion .

 

Attempts at diversion is your tactic to a tee!

 

Can you show me where I suggest that "the EU is an incredibly powerful entity that easily overcomes problems and will have all it's own way in brexit negotiations"?

 

No. you can't ... because you're only trying to put words in my mouth ... these are your words, not mine.

 

My point was simply that Juncker can believe whatever he likes (he's allowed, I have no problem with him having a view) but he can do nothing without the support of member states. His position is no more than a glorified sinecure. 

 

The other point is that you seem to be under the impression that the EU and member states make decisions independently? Do you really think that Juncker will be the guy who decides on the exit agreement? Of course not, the negotiation strategy will be determined by the member states in conjunction with the EU negotiators. 

 

 

 

 

[AlexRich]

6 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

They won't, Sgt, because they want everybody to believe that the EU is just one nice, big club of friendly nations working together, for each other toward blissful unity.

 

Again, trying to frame the views of others ... please show where anyone on this thread suggests this? Again, you can't ... putting your words onto others ... it's simply dishonest, as are you.

 

[AlexRich]

37 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Interesting statement.

 

I posted this on Friday

 

 

Lots of bigger picture points that surprisingly, no-one wants to go near with a barge pole.

 

Why bother countering the ramblings of a loon?  You'd be better off wearing a sandwich board with "the end is nigh" on it and touring Europe. At the very least it would give them a laugh. 

 

[AlexRich]

 

Boris putting his foot in it again?

 

"Alexandra Russell-Oliver, an analyst at Caxton FX agreed: "Comments from foreign secretary Boris Johnson that the UK might trigger Article 50 early next year and be out of the EU within two years may have weighed on the pound, which reversed some of its earlier gains in overnight trading."

 

http://www.cityam.com/249987/boris-johnsons-article-50-comments-send-sterling-sliding

[JB300]

Britain reportedly faces multi-million pound fines if the government engages in trade talks before quitting the EU.

According to the Sunday Times, Whitehall officials have been told there is a “high risk” the European Commission would take the UK to court if ministers open talks with any countries with which the EU is already negotiating.

And even talks with countries not already negotiating with the EU contain danger, with experts warning of a “medium/low risk” of legal action from Brussels.

http://www.cityam.com/249585/britain-reportedly-faces-multi-million-pound-fines-if-trade

Guess that means we are at the back of the queue (or at least 2nd place) for talks with the US

[SgtRock]

Hollande has been one of the vocal mouthpieces advocating that the EU are harsh in dealing with the UK in Brexit negotations. 

 

Even though he will be gone next year and his input will have the same impact as a fart in space.

 

This is comedy gold.

 

Quote

Hollande 'determined' that UK help with Calais crisis

 

Even though

 

Quote

Britain has already committed around £85m in total to reinforce security in the Calais region and last year it was announced an extra £7m would be provided towards increasing security at the Channel Tunnel railhead at Coquelles. 

 

http://news.sky.com/story/calais-camp-must-be-completely-dismantled-hollande-10593829

 

French soil, French problem stretching way back to the early 90's.

 

Deal with it prat.

[sandyf]

On 9/23/2016 at 9:44 AM, SgtRock said:

 

She has no choice ?

 

I beg to differ.

 

She could invoke A 50 and start the 2 year process and let the legal challenge roll on during the 2 year exit period.

 

It is rather bizarre that all the pre vote claims of impending doom, that are now being backtracked on were made on the assumption that Cameron would invoke A 50 the day after the referendum. Cannot have it both ways.

 

The UK PM has said that there will be no U-Turn on Brexit. The EU ( Who want the UK out so that they can speed up the process of integration into a single EU Superstate, as per Junckers address to the Union speech last week. ) want the UK out soonest. Which way do you think the Court is going to judge ?

 

What do you think is going to happen in the EZ when the current totally ineffective euro 1.9 Trillion QE by the ECB comes to an end in March 2017 ? A bit of research will highlight that many economists had stated before the QE began in April 2015 that it was last chance saloon for the euro / EZ. I do not think I need to labour the point on the financial predicament that all EZ Countries are in with only real exception being Germany.

 

Further in 2017, Hollande will get the boot. Merkel, who many say is actually the glue that is holding the EU together will get the boot, if she is not forced out before Christmas. Throw in a spectacular in either France or Germany in the next year and the big time. Sadly, it is going to happen.

 

The V4 are making making serious noises about the EU, they are only interested in the money that they are receiving from the EU, when that dry's up OR the EU force migrant quota's on them, the V4 will become a totally different animal.

 

Greece . Nothing more to be said.

 

The ongoing migrant crisis that has switched to Italy but is largely being totally ignored by the MSM.

 

The EU is a basket case waiting to explode. The EU's answer is more EU. Recipe for disaster as most Countries do not want more EU, they want less.

 

A quick question for you, one that everyone else avoids like a dose of syphilis.

 

The only mantra that I am hearing is Free Trade, Single Market etc. If this is the most important aspect of the EU.

 

Why are all the Councils and committees not scrapped and superceded by a single trade commission which would cost peanuts ?

 

Edit to add:

 

If you want an uncanny parallel from recent history to where the EU is heading. Research the Role and reasons for Slovenia's part in the breakup of the former Yugoslavia.

You can beg all you want, the courts requested she wait until after the hearings had been concluded and she agreed.

She had no choice because she relinquished it, but you are quite entitled to interpret it as a tactical move.