Now that Britain has voted to leave the EU, what comes next?

[MissAndry]

As you rightly say - the poor are always poor - nothing to inherit, no way to improve easily. Trapped by the socio-economics of the day, the problem being that their end of that economy never really changes much. There are some exceptional cases of breakthroughs which the politicians hold up as examples of how egalitarian our society is, but they are flashes in the pan - the main body of the poor just don't have the will to self-improve much. Ask any social worker,,,,,,,,,

I don't believe current 'middle-class' life has that much attraction. Years of school and study followed by marriage, then you both work until you drop for nothing.

Easier to sit back in social housing, and enjoy the ciggies, dope and booze.

Edited July 17, 2016 by MissAndry

[dick dasterdly]

.............................................

I largely agree, but at the same time I worked for a long time with men who had a good standard of living for them and their families. They had houses well beyond the expectations of most people now.

Perhaps they had family money behind them. It never crossed my mind to question them as to how they had such lovely houses because I was young and didn't care.

But they were working in the same job as myself - except I was paid less money as a new lower 'grade' had been introduced .

Things only got worse as time went on and 're-structuring' became the norm....

And I'm talking about 'middle class' jobs - the poor suffered even more as they had few skills.

There was a lot of inherited money around in the 70's and 80's or so - when parents who had learned to save were dying off and the 60's babies suddenly got "rich". This contributed greatly to the rise of consumerism and it's associated wastage. Those deceased parents must have been spinning in their graves to see their hard-earned savings being put to such extravagances as they would never have bothered with.

As you rightly say - the poor are always poor - nothing to inherit, no way to improve easily. Trapped by the socio-economics of the day, the problem being that their end of that economy never really changes much. There are some exceptional cases of breakthroughs which the politicians hold up as examples of how egalitarian our society is, but they are flashes in the pan - the main body of the poor just don't have the will to self-improve much. Ask any social worker,,,,,,,,,

No, the men I worked with (albeit with a lower 'grade' even though I was doing the same job), were FAR from interested in wasting money on 'consumer' items!

They are the reason why I have a lot of time for the old school moderately wealthy.

Edit - Having said this, I'm sure they're all dead now .

Edited July 17, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

As you rightly say - the poor are always poor - nothing to inherit, no way to improve easily. Trapped by the socio-economics of the day, the problem being that their end of that economy never really changes much. There are some exceptional cases of breakthroughs which the politicians hold up as examples of how egalitarian our society is, but they are flashes in the pan - the main body of the poor just don't have the will to self-improve much. Ask any social worker,,,,,,,,,

I don't believe current 'middle-class' life has that much attraction. Years of school and study followed by marriage, then you both work until you drop for nothing.

Easier to sit back in social housing, and enjoy the ciggies, dope and booze.

Reminds me of a documentary I watched back in the '80s (?) - when a young woman the same age as me, sitting in an enormous living room (larger than my house) said that she hadn't taken "the easy option" of a council house and had instead worked to gain her advantages .

Edit - one of the funniest things i'v ever seen!

Edited July 17, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[jpinx]

There are exceptions that prove every rule, and the publicity machine loves to highlight them, but the reality is the same old boring stuff. The people I worked with in the 1970's were a mix of youth and almost retiring, and the differences were huge.

The topic is basically -- what next after Brexit, and that is also going to depend largely on expectations, not reality

Edited July 17, 2016 by jpinx

[Mangostin]

The topic is basically -- what next after Brexit

It will make the UK a much belter place ....if there will still be a "UK" left after it

[jpinx]

The topic is basically -- what next after Brexit

It will make the UK a much belter place ....if there will still be a "UK" left after it

The "UK" will continue to exist, but maybe with fewer "kingdoms". Scotland voted remain by a much greater factor than the margin by which brexit won overall, and now here are mutterings about another Scotland referendum, even though Mrs May is resisting. The outcome will probably be a fudged up mess of a UK including Scotland as an independent member - much like the Isle of Man, Greenland under the Danish Crown, etc. The EU is very obviously heading towards a major re-structuring, and Scotland might well be able to negotiate membership of some kind, but bear in mind that they'll need to balance their books first, and that's not showing any signs of happening. Also - Scotland will be a benefactor, not a contributor to the EU, so there's limited leverage for Scotland to negotiate membership.

[mommysboy]

Truth be told the putative average Brit won't work for the going market rate. Sadly, we've assumed a certain standard of living way beyond our means: one based on what our parents and grandparents had. It is this wish for that life, which only fleetingly existed, that people express as 'being British again'. You have to ask yourself why it is EU economic migrants can come over, work, live and still send money back home.

The impossible job the Government has is to convince 10-15 million people they must live a relatively impoverished life, though in truth it is still better than most people experienced in the 50's for instance. Being a home owner never was a given fo most working class people. As for going to university, that really should be about being very intelligent; most people aren't (myself included). Holidays! not really no, not unless you had a relative in Margate for instance.

Are you saying that the bottom level Brits should work for the wages paid by India, poor EU countries etc.?

Britain is pretty prosperous - but it probably comes back to the divide between rich and poor .

I don't know what the level should be. But I saw Panorama the other day and a skilled worker who had been working for 14 pounds an hour was unemployed. Apparently Poles will do it for 7 pounds. So that is the going rate for the job. The guy had six kids as I recall. Altogether a very serious situation for him. But this typifies the situation we are in. I imagine an unskilled worker needs to adjust to 5 pounds an hour possibly, which would be awful.

He has to get through somehow, and my guess is there won't be much of a welfare system in the future. So the family will have to live in a poor housing, survive as best they can without the car, and a pet horse of all things. I suppose as soon as the kids are old enough they will need to work. This is the way life has to be now unfortunately. It's a combination of world over population, and failing economic conditions. That's the way it is. I know dd thinks it's about income inequality but I'm not sure this is so true. You'd hope so mind.

[Mangostin]

I agree with the rest of your post, except having 'open borders' for unskilled workers

Another point i would like to make, is the fact that the few social's rights people can today benefit from, are the result of the battles of that largely "uneducated" working class, while on the other hand, we can surely be so thankful to all our multi-talented and highly qualified ruling class for all the hell we are going trough.

If the people don't start to think with their own head, rather than simply believe everything they are being told, they will ends up to believe their friends are their enemies, while struggling to defends their real foes...

[MissAndry]

It's a combination of world over population, and failing economic conditions. That's the way it is. I know dd thinks it's about income inequality but I'm not sure this is so true. You'd hope so mind.

There is no such thing as world overpopulation. Some 3rd world countries are out of control and attempting to colonize the west.

The western world has a shrinking native population.

[jpinx]

I agree with the rest of your post, except having 'open borders' for unskilled workers

Another point i would like to make, is the fact that the few social's rights people can today benefit from, are the result of the battles of that largely "uneducated" working class, while on the other hand, we can surely be so thankful to all our multi-talented and highly qualified ruling class for all the hell we are going trough.

If the people don't start to think with their own head, rather than simply believe everything they are being told, they will ends up to believe their friends are their enemies, while struggling to defends their real foes...

Given that there are people on this forum who admit to only reading The Sun, or Mail, or whatever and will base their voting on that -- no wonder the benefits system is in such a mess.

[Mangostin]

Given that there are people on this forum who admit to only reading The Sun, or Mail, or whatever and will base their voting on that -- no wonder the benefits system is in such a mess.

I thought that whoever bought The Sun, didn't really need to know on how to read it, most would just skip to page 3 and throw away the rest as an unwanted package....

[jpinx]

It's a combination of world over population, and failing economic conditions. That's the way it is. I know dd thinks it's about income inequality but I'm not sure this is so true. You'd hope so mind.

There is no such thing as world overpopulation. Some 3rd world countries are out of control and attempting to colonize the west.

The western world has a shrinking native population.

"Overpopulation" is an inexact word. There are vast areas of the habitable world still virtually uninhabited, and we waste more food than would eliminate all the famines. Human migrations have been part of man's history for thousands of years -- modern USA is based on it...

[i claudius]

I agree with the rest of your post, except having 'open borders' for unskilled workers

Another point i would like to make, is the fact that the few social's rights people can today benefit from, are the result of the battles of that largely "uneducated" working class, while on the other hand, we can surely be so thankful to all our multi-talented and highly qualified ruling class for all the hell we are going trough.

If the people don't start to think with their own head, rather than simply believe everything they are being told, they will ends up to believe their friends are their enemies, while struggling to defends their real foes...

Given that there are people on this forum who admit to only reading The Sun, or Mail, or whatever and will base their voting on that -- no wonder the benefits system is in such a mess.

Could be worse,they could be reading the guardian and watching the BBC news

[Thaiwine]

For those who think a degree makes you intelligent it doesn't,

And the lack of a degree doesn't make you unintelligent.

[Mangostin]

Scotland voted remain by a much greater factor than the margin by which brexit won overal

Let's all remember that this was before "Brexit", now that the situation radically changed, should be no surprise that if another referendum will take place, the result might be very different from the previous one, many people felt the need to continue to be part of a bigger union(for good reasons), but now that England has decided to isolate itself from the rest, i wouldn't be so sure about the outcome.

[MissAndry]

For those who think a degree makes you intelligent it doesn't,

And the lack of a degree doesn't make you unintelligent.

But it's a fair indication.

[Khun Han]

For those who think a degree makes you intelligent it doesn't,

And the lack of a degree doesn't make you unintelligent.

My eldest is at uni in the UK. She and all her uni mates are 'remainers', the most important reason being that "We'll all have to apply for visas to travel round Europe on our college trips and holidays if we leave the EU."

[Khun Han]

For those who think a degree makes you intelligent it doesn't,

And the lack of a degree doesn't make you unintelligent.

But it's a fair indication.

I would describe it as an extremely loose indication.

[jpinx]

Scotland voted remain by a much greater factor than the margin by which brexit won overal

Let's all remember that this was before "Brexit", now that the situation radically changed, should be no surprise that if another referendum will take place, the result might be very different from the previous one, many people felt the need to continue to be part of a bigger union(for good reasons), but now that England has decided to isolate itself from the rest, i wouldn't be so sure about the outcome.

I agree -- it's a new situation, but the Scottish vote to remain seemed to be significant, and could now easily add to the numbers voting for independence -- assuming hard assurances can be given about Scotland's EU membership.

[MissAndry]

For those who think a degree makes you intelligent it doesn't,

And the lack of a degree doesn't make you unintelligent.

But it's a fair indication.

I would describe it as an extremely loose indication.

That usually means you don't have one.

[Mangostin]

My eldest is at uni in the UK. She and all her uni mates are 'remainers', the most important reason being that "We'll all have to apply for visas to travel round Europe on our college trips and holidays if we leave the EU."

Compared to all those elders which would just blame all the evil of this world to foreigners, i would say that's already a huge step forward into the right direction

[Thaiwine]

My eldest is at uni in the UK. She and all her uni mates are 'remainers', the most important reason being that "We'll all have to apply for visas to travel round Europe on our college trips and holidays if we leave the EU."

Compared to all those elders which would just blame all the evil of this world to foreigners, i would say that's already a huge step forward into the right direction

Local.png

Nothing wrong in going out and experiencing other cultures around the world, no need to limit yourself to EU countries,

[Thaiwine]

Scotland voted remain by a much greater factor than the margin by which brexit won overal

Let's all remember that this was before "Brexit", now that the situation radically changed, should be no surprise that if another referendum will take place, the result might be very different from the previous one, many people felt the need to continue to be part of a bigger union(for good reasons), but now that England has decided to isolate itself from the rest, i wouldn't be so sure about the outcome.

I agree -- it's a new situation, but the Scottish vote to remain seemed to be significant, and could now easily add to the numbers voting for independence -- assuming hard assurances can be given about Scotland's EU membership.

Many jump on the bandwagon of 'Scotland voted to stay part of the EU'

Where as the reality is the majority of the Scots who voted, voted for the UK to remain in the EU,

[Mangostin]

Nothing wrong in going out and experiencing other cultures around the world, no need to limit yourself to EU countries,

Agree, let's take down all borders now

[jpinx]

Scotland voted remain by a much greater factor than the margin by which brexit won overal

Let's all remember that this was before "Brexit", now that the situation radically changed, should be no surprise that if another referendum will take place, the result might be very different from the previous one, many people felt the need to continue to be part of a bigger union(for good reasons), but now that England has decided to isolate itself from the rest, i wouldn't be so sure about the outcome.

I agree -- it's a new situation, but the Scottish vote to remain seemed to be significant, and could now easily add to the numbers voting for independence -- assuming hard assurances can be given about Scotland's EU membership.

Many jump on the bandwagon of 'Scotland voted to stay part of the EU'

Where as the reality is the majority of the Scots who voted, voted for the UK to remain in the EU,

The question was "Do you think the UK should remain in the EU?", so Scotland voted for the UK to remain and it is not inappropriate to assume that they were voting to keep themselves in the EU. Since England (except London) voted for Brexit, and Scotland narrowly voted to remain in UK last time round, it is not unreasonable to think that when Brexit becomes a reality, a referendum on Scotland's independence might have a different result

[Mangostin]

Many jump on the bandwagon of 'Scotland voted to stay part of the EU'

Where as the reality is the majority of the Scots who voted, voted for the UK to remain in the EU,

And that's exactly what it's going to trigger a new referendum, someone seems to think that the Tories are the ruling party up there, however, there are still chances to avoid this prawn's walk

[bkkcanuck8]

Scotland voted remain by a much greater factor than the margin by which brexit won overal

Let's all remember that this was before "Brexit", now that the situation radically changed, should be no surprise that if another referendum will take place, the result might be very different from the previous one, many people felt the need to continue to be part of a bigger union(for good reasons), but now that England has decided to isolate itself from the rest, i wouldn't be so sure about the outcome.

I agree -- it's a new situation, but the Scottish vote to remain seemed to be significant, and could now easily add to the numbers voting for independence -- assuming hard assurances can be given about Scotland's EU membership.

Many jump on the bandwagon of 'Scotland voted to stay part of the EU'

Where as the reality is the majority of the Scots who voted, voted for the UK to remain in the EU,

There were many questions / threats that came up between both referendum -- and an understanding that this would be the only referendum IF status-quo were to continue but.... if something like Scotland were pulled out against the popular vote of Scotland... then there would have to be another referendum.

Exit polling indicated in Scotland that many people who voted stay voted stay on condition of all the promises of devolution that were made (I am not up to date on these but shortly after there seemed to be backtracking).

Also one of the big "threats" where that if Scotland voted to leave the UK they would be voting to leave the EU (while the UK with veto power could hold them out). The inference to this threat is that a vote to stay in the UK would mean staying in the EU (which polling indicated the remain side would win at that time).

It seems very clear that the vote on which to remain in the UK should article 50 be executed starting Scotland leaving the EU.... is invalid since a lot of the reasons to remain in the UK would have been invalidated. It therefore makes logical sense to take it directly to the people of Scotland that given all the changes.... do you wish to remain in the UK or the EU -- assuming that some way could not allow for both.

Are you really against letting the people of Scotland democratically clear up this quandary?

[Mangostin]

Since England (except London) voted for Brexit,

There are already many petitions from lots of places around England, to proclaim their own independence and join the EU by themselves, can't really blame them, given the sort of government which it's now in power....

[mommysboy]

There were many questions / threats that came up between both referendum -- and an understanding that this would be the only referendum IF status-quo were to continue but.... if something like Scotland were pulled out against the popular vote of Scotland... then there would have to be another referendum.

Exit polling indicated in Scotland that many people who voted stay voted stay on condition of all the promises of devolution that were made (I am not up to date on these but shortly after there seemed to be backtracking).

Also one of the big "threats" where that if Scotland voted to leave the UK they would be voting to leave the EU (while the UK with veto power could hold them out). The inference to this threat is that a vote to stay in the UK would mean staying in the EU (which polling indicated the remain side would win at that time).

It seems very clear that the vote on which to remain in the UK should article 50 be executed starting Scotland leaving the EU.... is invalid since a lot of the reasons to remain in the UK would have been invalidated. It therefore makes logical sense to take it directly to the people of Scotland that given all the changes.... do you wish to remain in the UK or the EU -- assuming that some way could not allow for both.

Are you really against letting the people of Scotland democratically clear up this quandary?

You've got lost.

The Scottish referendum was a simple vote on whether Scotland should remain in the United Kingdom.

The EU referendum was a simple vote on whether UK should remain in the EU.

There are no other inferences.

Both were a one time, once and for all vote.

[Thaiwine]

Many jump on the bandwagon of 'Scotland voted to stay part of the EU'

Where as the reality is the majority of the Scots who voted, voted for the UK to remain in the EU,

There were many questions / threats that came up between both referendum -- and an understanding that this would be the only referendum IF status-quo were to continue but.... if something like Scotland were pulled out against the popular vote of Scotland... then there would have to be another referendum.

Exit polling indicated in Scotland that many people who voted stay voted stay on condition of all the promises of devolution that were made (I am not up to date on these but shortly after there seemed to be backtracking).

Also one of the big "threats" where that if Scotland voted to leave the UK they would be voting to leave the EU (while the UK with veto power could hold them out). The inference to this threat is that a vote to stay in the UK would mean staying in the EU (which polling indicated the remain side would win at that time).

It seems very clear that the vote on which to remain in the UK should article 50 be executed starting Scotland leaving the EU.... is invalid since a lot of the reasons to remain in the UK would have been invalidated. It therefore makes logical sense to take it directly to the people of Scotland that given all the changes.... do you wish to remain in the UK or the EU -- assuming that some way could not allow for both.

Are you really against letting the people of Scotland democratically clear up this quandary?

To follow this train of thought, it would not be possible to have the EU referendum, as the Scots ind referendum was to stay in the UK, so by keeping a status quo of being in the EU, only a remain vote would keep things as they were. So giving the Scots determination over the UK