Juncker – “No renegotiation”

[Guest]

I thought a couple of us had pointed out why it is not in the UK's interest to start negotiations immediately? How this is in the EU elites' best interest, but far from a good idea for the UK?

Please answer those points before just posting that the UK should immediately invoke article 50, bearing in mind that it would only help the EU to frighten other member countries that are considering leaving.

I understand the reasons why UK would like to delay the divorce process. I was just making joke about how the realisation of ones power drunken wishes have also caused a slight doubts on the brexiters.

Now, if the UK wish to redo the referendum, I'm all for it. In fact the whole EU most likely supports the idea. Get it done and we'll all learn from the first referendum and improve the EU to accommodate people's wishes in a better way. At least I hope it would be the result of this.

If UK wishes to keep on getting out, then its EU's responsibility to drive what us EU members want. It's also EU's responsibility to protect our common interest. If UK wishes to play difficult while exiting, it will see that it's not as powerful it used to be.

EU don't want to destroy the UK, but it's most important task is to protect EU coalition. If Britain gets hurt during this process, it's bad for both sides, but worse for UK. EU has no reason to obey what UK wants. Far less reason than UK is to obey what EU wants. This is in the case of bad divorce.

[dick dasterdly]

I thought a couple of us had pointed out why it is not in the UK's interest to start negotiations immediately? How this is in the EU elites' best interest, but far from a good idea for the UK?

Please answer those points before just posting that the UK should immediately invoke article 50, bearing in mind that it would only help the EU to frighten other member countries that are considering leaving.

I understand the reasons why UK would like to delay the divorce process. I was just making joke about how the realisation of ones power drunken wishes have also caused a slight doubts on the brexiters.

Now, if the UK wish to redo the referendum, I'm all for it. In fact the whole EU most likely supports the idea. Get it done and we'll all learn from the first referendum and improve the EU to accommodate people's wishes in a better way. At least I hope it would be the result of this.

If UK wishes to keep on getting out, then its EU's responsibility to drive what us EU members want. It's also EU's responsibility to protect our common interest. If UK wishes to play difficult while exiting, it will see that it's not as powerful it used to be.

EU don't want to destroy the UK, but it's most important task is to protect EU coalition. If Britain gets hurt during this process, it's bad for both sides, but worse for UK. EU has no reason to obey what UK wants. Far less reason than UK is to obey what EU wants. This is in the case of bad divorce.

Fair enough - but you're 'arguing' from the EU's point of view, whereas I'm arguing from the UK's point of view.

From such different 'starting places', we're not going to agree!

Edited June 25, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[pitrevie]

Mr Juncker really doesn't get it. Maybe this will help :

Juncker knows that brexit encourages the populations of other member countries to start thinking about leaving the EU.

It makes sense therefore (from the EU's point of view) to start negotiations immediately, and make it clear that the EU is v harsh on those countries that dare to leave.

I doubt the EU can force the UK into invoking article 50 before the UK is good and ready. But perhaps I'm wrong?

I think you are correct and for once the ball is firmly in the UK court and they don't like it hence the child-like response.

Its common sense from their point of view.

How are they going to stop the population of other countries demanding their own referendum? By immediately making it clear that those that leave will be dealt with v harshly. 3 months down the line (as is likely to happen unless the EU can force the UK into invoking article 50 immediately) is already too late. Other countries are already saying that they should also have a referendum.

What you mean is that other politicians like Marie Le Penn have called for a referendum in those countries. Can you name one country where the governing party is demanding a referendum?

However all the rest is pure speculation on your part.

However like Boris you sound so convincing now you have won it fills me with great confidence. I see now that the plan is, lets wait and see if any others follow before we do anything on our own. There was me thinking we couldn't wait to get out of that accursed organization and save all that money.

[Mr Moo]

Screw Juncker and the horse he rode into Brussels on.

Short memories these people have: Had it not been for the determiation and courage of the British all the bullies in Brussels would be speaking German now and because of Brexit we have probably saved them all from having to speak Arabic as well.

[Caps]

Juncker knows that brexit encourages the populations of other member countries to start thinking about leaving the EU.

It makes sense therefore (from the EU's point of view) to start negotiations immediately, and make it clear that the EU is v harsh on those countries that dare to leave.

I doubt the EU can force the UK into invoking article 50 before the UK is good and ready. But perhaps I'm wrong?

I think you are correct and for once the ball is firmly in the UK court and they don't like it hence the child-like response.

Its common sense from their point of view.

How are they going to stop the population of other countries demanding their own referendum? By immediately making it clear that those that leave will be dealt with v harshly. 3 months down the line (as is likely to happen unless the EU can force the UK into invoking article 50 immediately) is already too late. Other countries are already saying that they should also have a referendum.

What you mean is that other politicians like Marie Le Penn have called for a referendum in those countries. Can you name one country where the governing party is demanding a referendum?

However all the rest is pure speculation on your part.

However like Boris you sound so convincing now you have won it fills me with great confidence. I see now that the plan is, lets wait and see if any others follow before we do anything on our own. There was me thinking we couldn't wait to get out of that accursed organization and save all that money.

There wasn't a governing party demanding a referendum in the UK

[dick dasterdly]

It makes sense therefore (from the EU's point of view) to start negotiations immediately, and make it clear that the EU is v harsh on those countries that dare to leave.

I doubt the EU can force the UK into invoking article 50 before the UK is good and ready. But perhaps I'm wrong?

I think you are correct and for once the ball is firmly in the UK court and they don't like it hence the child-like response.

Its common sense from their point of view.

How are they going to stop the population of other countries demanding their own referendum? By immediately making it clear that those that leave will be dealt with v harshly. 3 months down the line (as is likely to happen unless the EU can force the UK into invoking article 50 immediately) is already too late. Other countries are already saying that they should also have a referendum.

What you mean is that other politicians like Marie Le Penn have called for a referendum in those countries. Can you name one country where the governing party is demanding a referendum?

However all the rest is pure speculation on your part.

However like Boris you sound so convincing now you have won it fills me with great confidence. I see now that the plan is, lets wait and see if any others follow before we do anything on our own. There was me thinking we couldn't wait to get out of that accursed organization and save all that money.

Of course its speculation!

The UK vote has proved that governments and politicians often have a different opinion to that of those they are supposed to represent.

[pitrevie]

Let's get the hell out as soon as possible.

I agree and that is what the EU wants us to do but some are now getting very cold feet and drumming up all sorts of excuses as to why we should take our time, wait and see. Its sounds just like "Yes Minister"

Juncker and his junta have accepted the decision by the British people, no further negotiations to improve terms no new referendum on those new terms which was always the complaint in the past.

Do you remember the quote we had on this forum by Cromwell some time before the referendum:

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!

Oliver Cromwell - April 20, 1653

I think its hysterically hilarious that its now the EU saying this to the UK.

[Guest]

Fair enough - but you're 'arguing' from the EU's point of view, whereas I'm arguing from the UK's point of view.

From such different 'starting places', we're not going to agree!

We will eventually. We have now two years to negotiate the compromises and deals together to minimise the losses on both sides

[Rancid]

Its an interesting situation, the EU put sanctions on Russia, after the US told them to, and so have lost exports and suffered financially for their lapdog stupidity. The question is whether they now want to also lose the UK market?

Then of course is the fact that the UK has the only half decent army in Europe, does the EU want to lose access to that as well? There again all the scaremongering about Russia is BS anyway, so perhaps that wont matter, and there is Turkey...

Then of course is that the EU has to demonstrate to others with the same exit idea that it would be bad for them financially, as such they need to try and punish UK as much and quickly as possible as there are elections coming up in several EU countries next year. Yes, the EU Nannycrats are facing job security revolt on several fronts, will they be able to hold the whole thing together through threats and blackmail? It should all be quite interesting.

[dick dasterdly]

Let's get the hell out as soon as possible.

I agree and that is what the EU wants us to do but some are now getting very cold feet and drumming up all sorts of excuses as to why we should take our time, wait and see. Its sounds just like "Yes Minister"

Juncker and his junta have accepted the decision by the British people, no further negotiations to improve terms no new referendum on those new terms which was always the complaint in the past.

Do you remember the quote we had on this forum by Cromwell some time before the referendum:

It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.

In the name of God, go!

Oliver Cromwell - April 20, 1653

I think its hysterically hilarious that its now the EU saying this to the UK.

PLEASE read the posts saying why they think it is in the UK's best interests to leave negotiating (and invoking article 50) for a few months!

Edit - even though I find the whole thing funny, I still get fed-up saying the same thing over and over again....

Edited June 25, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[dunroaming]

Lets take a moment to reflect. It would be in the UK's interest to leave quickly as for possibly the next two years whilst we are in the EU, EU citizens can keep "flooding" into Britain. Of course that means that we can keep flooding into Europe as well. The negotiated measures agreed by Cameron about holding back benefits for four years have been scrapped (as he predicted) so all those people coming in will still be eligible for now. The EU will make it as difficult as they can for the Brits and give no concessions or deals. This is for two main reasons. One is that Britain has jeopardised the stability of the EU and the second, more relevant is that by taking a hard stance they will discourage others form leaving (again predicted by Cameron).

If you look at the demographics of the voting there is a very definite pattern. The vast majority of the younger voters voted to remain and the older the voters got the more they voted to leave. I think this speaks volumes.

[JAG]

Not one of those three "Presidents" has been elected. The British (indeed the European) electorate have never even had the opportunity to elect them to their various "Presidencies".

The sight of that choleric looking unelected Luxembourger wagging his finger and telling us to go has convinced me that, despite the possible short or even mid term effect on my finances we reached the right decision of Thursday.

[dick dasterdly]

Lets take a moment to reflect. It would be in the UK's interest to leave quickly as for possibly the next two years whilst we are in the EU, EU citizens can keep "flooding" into Britain. Of course that means that we can keep flooding into Europe as well. The negotiated measures agreed by Cameron about holding back benefits for four years have been scrapped (as he predicted) so all those people coming in will still be eligible for now. The EU will make it as difficult as they can for the Brits and give no concessions or deals. This is for two main reasons. One is that Britain has jeopardised the stability of the EU and the second, more relevant is that by taking a hard stance they will discourage others form leaving (again predicted by Cameron).

If you look at the demographics of the voting there is a very definite pattern. The vast majority of the younger voters voted to remain and the older the voters got the more they voted to leave. I think this speaks volumes.

Of course its not in the UK's interest when the EU elite are desperate to make an example of the UK to discourage those other countries who are considering doing the same thing!

Plus of course, the markets are still getting used to the idea - another reason for the UK to wait until things have stabilised.

[dick dasterdly]

Not one of those three "Presidents" has been elected. The British (indeed the European) electorate have never even had the opportunity to elect them to their various "Presidencies".

The sight of that choleric looking unelected Luxembourger wagging his finger and telling us to go has convinced me that, despite the possible short or even mid term effect on my finances we reached the right decision of Thursday.

Who cares? The UK will leave in their own time, not as laughably dictated by the EU following the brexit vote.

[sujoop]

"A petition for the government to hold a second referendum on Brexit has proved so popular it temporarily crashed the parliament website."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/eu-referendum-petition_uk_576ce6d8e4b0232d331dafb4

This question should be attached to the upcoming ballot:

'Do you wish to re-join the EU'? YES/NO

Following a period of sober reflection, the ayes would likely have it and likely by a fair margin. Thus it would be pertinent if quiet diplomatic efforts are made now to prepare for the possibility.

Critical separation votes such as this should require a 10% majority margin to pass lest many in the 'win' camp wake up the next day similar to the morning after being rather reckless at a heady party and realise 'oh sh|t, what have I done'....

This was a referendum 'primarily' based on fear of immigrants if we're being honest.

The 'Farage/Trumpification' pied-piper tactics appealing to the base fears and inner racists of a slight majority of reactionary simpletons and ageaing xenophobes won the day (but at a tremendous cost which is yet to be fully revealed and could well be a catalyst for a domino effect weakening western societies further).

Sadly and ironically the real 'winners' here in weakened, divided and fearful western civilizations is ISIS and their ilk (and tragically Joe Cox's murderer).. Congrats Farage/Trump et al.

Edited June 25, 2016 by sujoop

[JAG]

The EU (or it's un elected governors) may wish to deal harshly with the UK. However during the two years or whatever until we actually leave we still have a seat at the table, and can veto and obstruct any moves they may make to hurt us. Some might say business as usual then, until that day when we finally break.

Of course we must hope that the next Prime Minister has the balls to stand up to them.

Personally I think the Boris/Gove show has, but we will see. After all they may not get the jobs.

Edited June 25, 2016 by JAG

[mopar71]

Brits frantically Googled what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

It's strictly anecdotal now but I've read that lots of Brits voted for Brexit just to give Europe the middle finger and never expected Brexit to win. Now they're suffering from breakup remorse. I hope another poll gets done soon to see how the UK citizens feel about it now.

Apparently many didn't even know what they were voting for...

The British are frantically Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

"...confusion over what Brexit might mean for the country's economy appears to have been reflected across the United Kingdom on Thursday. Google reported sharp upticks in searches not only related to the ballot measure but also about basic questions concerning the implications of the vote. At about 1 a.m. Eastern time, about eight hours after the polls closed, Google reported that searches for "what happens if we leave the EU" had more than tripled."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/

[ukrules]

Juncker may not have realised it but this referendum was a direct negotiation with the people of the UK and they told him and his cronies to go f*** themselves.

[mopar71]

"EU leaders based their reaction to the news from London around “the three ‘R’s”

• Regret – at losing nearly a fifth of the EU economy and more of its military and global clout"

EU Military clout? The only military clout the EU has is NATO.

[Guest]

The EU (or it's un elected governors) may wish to deal harshly with the UK. However during the two years or whatever until we actually leave we still have a seat at the table, and can veto and obstruct any moves they may make to hurt us. Some might say business as usual then, until that day when we finally break.

Of course we must hope that the next Prime Minister has the balls to stand up to them.

Personally I think the Boris/Gove show has, but we will see. After all they may not get the jobs.

No. EU just want to deal with the situation and get over with it.

UK populists had their time on the spotlight, which is soon over. EU citizens soon forget the idea of UK been part of the EU and continue building co-operation with the 27 countries are part of the coalition.

I'm really sorry for UK, but will not cry for it's decision for too long. It's time to look forward and put the efforts to things which matters to EU.

[SgtRock]

There are 2 things in play here.

1. The various representatives of EU bodies who are currently running around like headless chickens threatening all sorts of recriminations.

Contrast the above with regards to the Germans.

2. Merkel spoke yesterday in very measured, conciliatory tones. Today the German Foreign Minister had this to say.

The foreign ministers of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and Luxembourg were convened by their German counterpart Frank-Walter Steinmeier, who warned it was vital that the bloc see the shock Brexit vote, by 52%-48%, as a wakeup call.

EU politicians must listen “to the expectations of the European governments, but also to the expectations of the people”, Steinmeier said, but cautioned against rash decisions. “It’s totally clear that in times like these one should neither be hysterical, nor fall into paralysis,” he said as the talks began.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/eu-emergency-talks-brexit-berlin

The fools from the EU can make as much noise as they like. Germany will not want any impediments to its massive exports to the UK.

Edited June 25, 2016 by SgtRock

[ilostmypassword]

The EU (or it's un elected governors) may wish to deal harshly with the UK. However during the two years or whatever until we actually leave we still have a seat at the table, and can veto and obstruct any moves they may make to hurt us. Some might say business as usual then, until that day when we finally break.

Of course we must hope that the next Prime Minister has the balls to stand up to them.

Personally I think the Boris/Gove show has, but we will see. After all they may not get the jobs.

You don't seem to get it. The longer it drags on, the longer the uncertainty continues. And uncertainty is going to keep businesses from investing in the UK.

[SgtRock]

The EU (or it's un elected governors) may wish to deal harshly with the UK. However during the two years or whatever until we actually leave we still have a seat at the table, and can veto and obstruct any moves they may make to hurt us. Some might say business as usual then, until that day when we finally break.

Of course we must hope that the next Prime Minister has the balls to stand up to them.

Personally I think the Boris/Gove show has, but we will see. After all they may not get the jobs.

You don't seem to get it. The longer it drags on, the longer the uncertainty continues. And uncertainty is going to keep businesses from investing in the UK.

I am afraid that it is you that does not get.

The UK populace is sick to death of Governments pandering to big business.

When Government finally get it through their thick skulls that the people come before Big Business the sooner the UK will become a better place.

[JetsetBkk]

Just listen to these "Remainers"!

Talk about "spit the dummy"...

[Guest]

Just listen to these "Remainers"!

Talk about "spit the dummy"...

I must say, the exiters do have the better ability to brighten up the day.

[SgtRock]

There are 2 things in play here.

1. The various representatives of EU bodies who are currently running around like headless chickens threatening all sorts of recriminations.

Contrast the above with regards to the Germans.

2. Merkel spoke yesterday in very measured, conciliatory tones. Today the German Foreign Minister had this to say.

The foreign ministers of France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy and Luxembourg were convened by their German counterpart Frank-Walter Steinmeier, who warned it was vital that the bloc see the shock Brexit vote, by 52%-48%, as a wakeup call.

EU politicians must listen “to the expectations of the European governments, but also to the expectations of the people”, Steinmeier said, but cautioned against rash decisions. “It’s totally clear that in times like these one should neither be hysterical, nor fall into paralysis,” he said as the talks began.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/25/eu-emergency-talks-brexit-berlin

The fools from the EU can make as much noise as they like. Germany will not want any impediments to its massive exports to the UK.

I also just came across this.

Germany fears France, Austria, Finland, the Netherlands and Hungary may follow the UK and leave the EU, a government paper says.

The finance ministry strategy paper expresses concern that the UK's historic vote may trigger a Brexit domino effect across Europe, according to the German newspaper Die Welt.

It recommends that the EU enters into negotiations aimed at making the UK an "associated partner country" for the remaining 27 nations.

As it stands, the UK's exit may cause Germany's contribution to the EU's budget to rise by 3bn euros (£2.44bn) a year, the paper adds.

http://news.sky.com/story/1717150/germany-warns-of-brexit-domino-effect

[dick dasterdly]

The EU (or it's un elected governors) may wish to deal harshly with the UK. However during the two years or whatever until we actually leave we still have a seat at the table, and can veto and obstruct any moves they may make to hurt us. Some might say business as usual then, until that day when we finally break.

Of course we must hope that the next Prime Minister has the balls to stand up to them.

Personally I think the Boris/Gove show has, but we will see. After all they may not get the jobs.

You don't seem to get it. The longer it drags on, the longer the uncertainty continues. And uncertainty is going to keep businesses from investing in the UK.

I am afraid that it is you that does not get.

The UK populace is sick to death of Governments pandering to big business.

When Government finally get it through their thick skulls that the people come before Big Business the sooner the UK will become a better place.

Not going to happen, politicians have no intention of giving up there ridiculous pensions and the guarantee of consultancies/board membership positions with those companies they've advantaged .

[Thaddeus]

The older they get, the more they voted for brexit. Younger generations wanted to stat in europe.

Now be sure that UE will sanction the British, not particularly to show their anger but to serve as an exemple and scare other countries to do the same...

The reason for that could be, the older you are, the more experience you have of being in the EU, younger, more starry eyed.

[simple1]

The EU (or it's un elected governors) may wish to deal harshly with the UK. However during the two years or whatever until we actually leave we still have a seat at the table, and can veto and obstruct any moves they may make to hurt us. Some might say business as usual then, until that day when we finally break.

Of course we must hope that the next Prime Minister has the balls to stand up to them.

Personally I think the Boris/Gove show has, but we will see. After all they may not get the jobs.

As soon as Article 50 is invoked Britain would no longer be able to take part in any EU decision-making, and any exit agreements must be approved by all 27 remaining EU nations and the European Parliament. Being obstructionist will damage UK stability.

Edited June 25, 2016 by simple1

[JetsetBkk]

Just listen to these "Remainers"!

Talk about "spit the dummy"...

I must say, the exiters do have the better ability to brighten up the day.

Ah! Democracy in action!

To think her vote is worth exactly the same as anybody else's!