Wall over boundary

[rambose]

Eight years ago, my Thai wife got me to build a block wall at the boundary with our neighbors. Based on the current fence line that had long been in place, and the surveyors markers, the wall was built at the property line, on our side. The neighbors were present when the wall was built, removed the old fence themselves, and watched to make sure we didn't encroach on their property.

Recently, officials came through, surveyed, and re-placed the boundary markers. Our wall has ended up across the boundary line on our neighbor's property, to the extent of 7 cm at one end, and 22 cm at the other, over a 50 meter stretch, a total of about 7 square meters.

There's a chanote, and I would have thought the 10 year rule would have given us ownership of that 7 sq meters, but that seems not to be the case.

Based on local land prices, the land we encroached on is worth at most 5500 baht which we are willing to pay. They are demanding 50,000 baht, about half of what it would cost to rebuild the fence. If my wife doesn't agree to the ransom, they say they will sue, which according to my wife would cost us 10,000 baht to defend against, and we don't know the likely outcome.

My wife goes from being confident that we only have to pay the value of the land, to despondent that we'll end up having to pay the 50,000, depending on who she talks to.

Any advice, based on experience or knowledge in this kind of situation?

[shirtless]

Just move the wall and do a crappy rebuild 555 that will learn them.

Edited June 28, 2016 by shirtless

[rambose]

Just move the wall and do a crappy rebuild 555 that will learn them.

Well, it might come to that. But we would rather keep the current wall. The goal would be to keep the current wall, without paying them so much.

It seems that, locally, this situation happens on occasion, and one person pays the other a reasonable amount, and they all go on with their lives.

[bubba1]

Don't give into the 50K. Offer them 10K and then let them take it to court... call their bluff.

[chiang mai]

Move the wall and leave their side of it a crappy looking as possible, I suspect you don't have a very strong negotiating position on this other than to ask the Land Office to re-survey because you think it's wrong.

[rambose]

Don't give into the 50K. Offer them 10K and then let them take it to court... call their bluff.

That seems to be the best approach.

[rambose]

Move the wall and leave their side of it a crappy looking as possible, I suspect you don't have a very strong negotiating position on this other than to ask the Land Office to re-survey because you think it's wrong.

Well, the other side already looks crappy, and I don't want to spend the money to build a new fence.

However, some local officials at least agree that we can't be forced to move the fence, because they agreed to the position of the wall. Our negotiating position is that if they sue, they have to pay a lawyer somewhere between 10 and 20 thousand baht, and will likely only win 5000 baht for their trouble, a net loss of 5 to 15 thousand baht for them.

Edited June 28, 2016 by rambose

[chiang mai]

Move the wall and leave their side of it a crappy looking as possible, I suspect you don't have a very strong negotiating position on this other than to ask the Land Office to re-survey because you think it's wrong.

Well, the other side already looks crappy, and I don't want to spend the money to build a new fence.

However, some local officials at least agree that we can't be forced to move the fence, because they agreed to the position of the wall. Our negotiating position is that if they sue, they have to pay a lawyer somewhere between 10 and 20 thousand baht, and will likely only win 5000 baht for their trouble, a net loss of 5 to 15 thousand baht for them.

That's good news, plus it will take a long long time to get to court, it's not unheard of to wait 10 years before a civil suit is heard involving foreigners. Maybe a bluff is worthwhile, here take the 5k or sue us? I might even go to 7k just to get their interest.

[manfredtillmann]

do you still have the original survey report? if not, try to get hold of it.

if you do, present it and encourage your friendly neighbors to sue the surveying company.

[rambose]

Don't give into the 50K. Offer them 10K and then let them take it to court... call their bluff.

That seems to be the best approach.

Apparently, these people aren't interested in reason, will not consider less than 50,000.

They seem to be mainly interested in making us spend money. If we go to court, we would likely win, but we're still out 25K (20K for the lawyer, and 5K payoff to them).

But there's the chance we'd lose, then we'd be out something like 75K.

So we end up spending 25K even if we win; their losses are probably at most 5K, with a chance of a fairly big payoff.

[inzman]

What a glaring example of how opportunistic and greedy Thai people can be. Not to mention the pettiness of it all. I would have it resurveyed, and if was still in their favor, let them sue you.

[AlexRRR]

Get it re surveyed, if its correct pay up, for a few lousy Bhat, less than $AU2000 you risk starting something you wont be able to finnish, i mean you have to live next to these people, swallow your pride because its more that than getting riped off, you done the costing to move the wall and the pending legal costs you made an offer raise it if still no go pay up, you can be vindictive later if you wish but why bother?

[rambose]

Get it re surveyed, if its correct pay up, for a few lousy Bhat, less than $AU2000 you risk starting something you wont be able to finnish, i mean you have to live next to these people, swallow your pride because its more that than getting riped off, you done the costing to move the wall and the pending legal costs you made an offer raise it if still no go pay up, you can be vindictive later if you wish but why bother?

Could you please front me just a few lousy baht, say, $AU2000?

[cornishcarlos]

So how much do they have to pay to sue you ? Seems like they will get a lot less if they take it to court and win !!

Offer 15k and then call their bluff...

Its only cause you is a whitey

[cornishcarlos]

Btw, what was the reason for the recent survey ? Does the new survey match your existing chanote ? If it does, then your fault for not checking the markers before building the wall... !

[rambose]

So how much do they have to pay to sue you ? Seems like they will get a lot less if they take it to court and win !!

Offer 15k and then call their bluff...

Its only cause you is a whitey

We would agree to 15k. They could put that in their pocket. But apparently they won't accept less than 50K.

To sue us, it will cost them 10 to 20k baht, but we will likely win, which means they will be awarded 5K, for net loss of 5 to 15K. I'm not sure what is going on; they may be bluffing, and ultimately accept 15K; but they may be too stupid to realize they will lose and really believe they will walk away with 50K minus legal expense, or they are willing to suffer a 5K loss so that we have a 25K loss.

Btw, what was the reason for the recent survey ? Does the new survey match your existing chanote ? If it does, then your fault for not checking the markers before building the wall... !

We live in a village. They have been systematically going around surveying and re-establishing property boundaries.

The survey is intended to find the positions on the surface of the earth that corresponds to the markers on the plat on the chanote. The new survey does not correspond to the old survey; the new survey takes precedence.

Yes, I realize that different actions in the past would have led to a better result today. If I had a time machine, I would go for a do-over. Since I don't, I'm asking people for how I might handle the situation as it is today.

Edited June 28, 2016 by rambose

[KMartinHandyman]

Personally I would tear it down and move it to the new property line just to prove they were right,,I am a rich foreigner willing to spend baht 100,000 before I would be extorted for 50,000.

I'd stand there and direct the work and smile at them everyday and ask them how they like the new wall,,doesn't it look great?

[rambose]

Personally I would tear it down and move it to the new property line just to prove they were right,,I am a rich foreigner willing to spend baht 100,000 before I would be extorted for 50,000.

I'd stand there and direct the work and smile at them everyday and ask them how they like the new wall,,doesn't it look great?

I'm with you. I do wish I could afford to do that. I expect we'll let them sue.

[KMartinHandyman]

You could just tear it down yourself or with local help and leave it in a heap just off the property line and call that the new fence. Let them stare at it for a few years. If they want a fence let them pay. I'm just the vindictive type when it comes to these things so I'm not sure it's right for you.

[rambose]

You could just tear it down yourself or with local help and leave it in a heap just off the property line and call that the new fence. Let them stare at it for a few years. If they want a fence let them pay. I'm just the vindictive type when it comes to these things so I'm not sure it's right for you.

There are a couple reasons why that doesn't work. In some places, the wall is more than 3 meters high, with more than a meter of fill dirt on our side to make our property level. If the wall is removed, we still need to replace the part of the wall that retains the fill dirt, or it spills on their property, then they are hauling us to the police station based on that. But what really gives them an advantage over us is they are lowlifes, and wouldn't care if there was a pile of rubbish just across their property line, but we would care about it. And the reason we want the wall in the first place is to separate us from them visually and physically.

[BEVUP]

its a hard case as they only seemed to be out by CMTS (couldnt have been moved for any gain )

Maybe the last lot of surveyors just put them near abouts as stated on Chanute & whose to say the new survey was correct as it only sounds like a recheck

May try the old im not convinced its right with land dept & get a re - survey (watch the neighbor go off )

So how did the other boundrys hold up - I would say a few of them must of been out as well ( the domino affect )

I was lucky neighbors ok when once in the village one thing i said - Dont move the markers (yeh right) so as the wall went up it was the marker

[BEVUP]

Just another thought

Call the bluff their playing the old Falang has money which obviously they dont (so let go out & pay for lawyer - im sure it might cost more than stated )

Offer double the value - Their going against wife since we are forced to sign Docs

Doubling the offer would hold great respect in court as it would be determined on land value & your wifes ability to pay

Also dont forget if you have a win you may need to think of a re survey at your expense ( Ive seen on this forum in the area of 25 000 )

[BEVUP]

Just another thought

Call the bluff their playing the old Falang has money which obviously they dont (so let go out & pay for lawyer - im sure it might cost more than stated )

Offer double the value - Their going against wife since we are forced to sign Docs

Doubling the offer would hold great respect in court as it would be determined on land value & your wifes ability to pay

Also dont forget if you have a win you may need to think of a re survey at your expense ( Ive seen on this forum in the area of 25 000 )

Also where did they get their measurements from since they dont match your Chanute which has been active for maybe many many yrs

[rambose]

its a hard case as they only seemed to be out by CMTS (couldnt have been moved for any gain )

Maybe the last lot of surveyors just put them near abouts as stated on Chanute & whose to say the new survey was correct as it only sounds like a recheck

May try the old im not convinced its right with land dept & get a re - survey (watch the neighbor go off )

So how did the other boundrys hold up - I would say a few of them must of been out as well ( the domino affect )

I was lucky neighbors ok when once in the village one thing i said - Dont move the markers (yeh right) so as the wall went up it was the marker

Just another thought

Call the bluff their playing the old Falang has money which obviously they dont (so let go out & pay for lawyer - im sure it might cost more than stated )

Offer double the value - Their going against wife since we are forced to sign Docs

Doubling the offer would hold great respect in court as it would be determined on land value & your wifes ability to pay

Also dont forget if you have a win you may need to think of a re survey at your expense ( Ive seen on this forum in the area of 25 000 )

Well, as I have just found, (I bet I'm not the only falang who has trouble finding the bottom of things) is that the wall was built on a property line established by a survey conducted in 1998. That survey was ordered and paid for by our neighbors, who built their fence based on their own survey; they removed the fence when we built the wall.

So we built the wall according to the boundary line established by our neighbors 18 years ago, and now they are trying to get 50,000 for encroaching on their property!.

Yes, we need to get it re-surveyed. It apparently would only cost 500 baht.

The same problem, in reverse, is playing out on the other side of our property. We built the wall well inside what turned out to be the boundary. Then, the neighbors there built a house close to the wall, such that the roof overhand is right up to the wall, which now is established as our (my wife's) property.

[AlexRRR]

Ahhh sounds like they have encroached over on to your side is how it sounds...well good luck trying to turn the tables, i cant see how your going to get lowlifes to pay up let alone move there house or anything if its where it shouldn't be but hey you can try and spook them just for the fun if it.

Good luck because you will needed it since you couldn't afford the 2 gees to pay em off you wont be able to take them to court either.

[catman20]

Don't give into the 50K. Offer them 10K and then let them take it to court... call their bluff.

i agree i think they would then come back to you with a counter offer of say 25,000 you could the continue with your offers and in the end agree some where around 15,000 plus. and put it down to experiences and move on enjoying your life.

[Doc46]

You built the wall according to the survey pegs ,,,Did you check the Chanote first before building the wall to make sure the pegs were in the right place Don't forget that you are in Thailand,,,Pegs get moved more often then you think,,,,You maybe Wrong You Maybe Right,,,It Depends on How much was Paid for the moved Pegs to Show up on a Chanote.

[taichiplanet]

Well, as I have just found, (I bet I'm not the only falang who has trouble finding the bottom of things) is that the wall was built on a property line established by a survey conducted in 1998. That survey was ordered and paid for by our neighbors, who built their fence based on their own survey; they removed the fence when we built the wall.

So we built the wall according to the boundary line established by our neighbors 18 years ago, and now they are trying to get 50,000 for encroaching on their property!.

Yes, we need to get it re-surveyed. It apparently would only cost 500 baht.

The same problem, in reverse, is playing out on the other side of our property. We built the wall well inside what turned out to be the boundary. Then, the neighbors there built a house close to the wall, such that the roof overhand is right up to the wall, which now is established as our (my wife's) property.

if you are willing to let the piece of land go on the other side, maybe let the 2 neighbours sort it out. Tell the neighbour that is encroaching on your land that if he gets the neighbour that your fence is encroaching on to sign the land over to you, then you will sign the other land over to them. Everyone wins and your wife doesn't have to do a thing except make a signature a few times.

Edited June 29, 2016 by taichiplanet

[Generalchaos]

Get it re surveyed, if its correct pay up, for a few lousy Bhat, less than $AU2000 you risk starting something you wont be able to finnish, i mean you have to live next to these people, swallow your pride because its more that than getting riped off, you done the costing to move the wall and the pending legal costs you made an offer raise it if still no go pay up, you can be vindictive later if you wish but why bother?

Why throw good money after bad? It will cost another 5K or so to get the land office out to do another survey.

There is no point in spending more money to have it re confirmed, it will not resolve anything.

Move the wall or make an offer to compensate or let them sue, another survey is a waste of time and money.

[Pdavies99]

Don't forget, if they take you to court then it is very likely that they will be awarded legal costs against you as well.

Best to resurvey and if required move the wall. (Checking legality of maximum height)