Opening offshore bank - what currency should I go for?

[thelongshoot]

I hope this isnt a stupid question. The truth is I am just a regular bloke who knows very little about finance/banking so I am hoping you kind people can help. Thanks.

I am looking to open a Citibank offshore account in Singapore soon. Over the last few years it did prove to be a chore to open an account with any SIngapore bank, Citibank though have recently made the process easier again, with a reasonable chance of opening an account just with a passport, and proof of address, providing you do so in person. I am just qualifying this as I know some people might reply stating how hard it is to open an account there.

My money is split into 2 countries. Around one quarter of my money is in my U.S foriegn person account and the rest is in Thailand. Im british but I have no account back there and its very hard to open one as I dont have a UK address and have lived here for 14 years - again, just qualifying that I dont knwo why but i have become edgy revently about keeping too much here in Thailand, especialy with the current chiefs in charge, and the recent immigration forms asking for bank account details etc have put the nail in the coffin for me, i want out.

If anyone is still reading this (I am rambling a bit, sorry) I want to take out a good few million baht from Thailand and stick it in Singapore. What would be the safest bet currency wise? Should I deposit Thai Baht into a Singapore account? Dollars looks like a bad move? Euros? WHat about local Singapore currency?

Also how hard will it be to move the money over? I know Thais and there silly rules and ferang capital controls (I once got the third degree transfering 200,000 baht to a German bank) so I figured I would need to do this bit by bit over a few months. That said, withdrawing cash should be easy enough but what use is cash, in terms of moving it to SIngapore? None, I guess. So that leaves wire transfers and the dramas that go with that - 20 questions every time i send money to SIngapore.

If anyone has any ideas I would appreciate it. Im nervous about this country these days. The freedom we once had here seems to be eroding and I dont feel quite so welcome anymore. I would sleep a little better at night knowing my money was in a more foriegner friendly country, if that makes sense.

Many thanks

TLS

[Oxx]

Exchange rates can be very volatile. Swings of 30% in a year are far from uncommon. For "the safest bet" you should match your currency exposure with the currency of your current and future expenses. That's the simplest way to eliminate foreign exchange risk. So, if you're planning on spending the next few years in Thailand and don't have expenses elsewhere, THB is the currency to go for. However, you'll get better interest rates in Thailand on THB than you will in Singapore, even after tax is taken into account.

That said, the way your write suggests you have quite a lot of money in cash. The value of cash will inevitably be eroded by inflation over the years. I hope that you have other investments that, over the medium term, will outperform cash.

[maewang99]

agree with the Thai baht comments by Oxx 110%. and also when you stay here, pensions are not taxed but yields on sustainable low payout Thai small caps are greatly boosted by a refund of the corporate level tax paid ahead of the dividend. a very nice Thai tax refund for 180 day plus residents of Thailand, including "foreigners" but only when you use a Thai broker as any offshore holdings are always kept in nominee name only... and Thai Revenue doesn't like nominees at all. I've been getting Thai tax refunds along with excellent dividends for more than 10 years. do you know about this really big kick?

but I would also like to keep something offshore... in the PI. the demographics, Duterte everything keeps the Peso and the Philippines on top of everyone else. everything else is scary to me. especially the US dollar this time around... and my biggest pension is fixed in US dollars... so diversifying has always been a big thing for me too.

Edited June 29, 2016 by maewang99

[baansgr]

As said if THB is what you need to spend then that's the appropriate currency to avoid any fluctuations. Greenback is always a safe haven however is reasonably strong at present. Euro...that seems to be doomed so not ideal. Sterling is low and once the current situation settles an increase of 15% or more is very likely. Any advisor would say to diverse, so why not split between Greenback, Sterling and THB

[Oxx]

Greenback is always a safe haven

Only if your expenditure is in US Dollars.

Looking at USD/THB exchange rate:

- In the year following July 2006 the USD fell from 38.2 to 29.7 - a 22% fall in value.

- From March 2009 to November 2010 the USD fell from 36.3 to 29.8 - a loss of 18%.

- And more recently, from April 2012 to April 2013 it fell from 31.8 to 28.7 - 10% down.

The only "safe haven" currency is the one which matches your outgoings.

(All FX rates from xe.com.)

[THAIJAMES]

I am not aware of any banks with multi-currency accounts in Singapore that cover the Thai Baht. Personally I would keep some Thai Baht in Thailand but have a mix of foreign currencies in Singapore depending on their value at the time of your deposits.

I agree with baansgr,

Being at 30 years lows, now and probably the next few months will be a good time to purchase the british pound.

[fletchsmile]

Consider some money in SGD

Asian currency. Reasonable correlation with THB. More stable than THB. Well managed country and economy with decent regulation. If you're sticking money in Singapore only deposits in SGD are covered by their equivalent of deposit protection up to SGD 50k.

[BudRight]

Consider some money in SGD

Asian currency. Reasonable correlation with THB. More stable than THB. Well managed country and economy with decent regulation. If you're sticking money in Singapore only deposits in SGD are covered by their equivalent of deposit protection up to SGD 50k.

SGD 50k is like THB 350k or so. The OP is talking about a few million baht.

The problem is that every major currency is governed by bad monetary policy - and that means huge volitility. I'd go for gold or platinum myself.

Edited June 30, 2016 by BudRight

[12DrinkMore]

Unless things have changed, Thai banks will not allow you to send THB out of Thailand added to the difficulty of finding a bank to open an account in THB.

You have to convert it to another currency before sending.

SGD works for me. I use OCBC, have internet banking which unlike Bangkok Bank allows me to transfer to anywhere, an ATM card.

[gamini]

Since you live in Thailand it would be best to keep most of your funds in Thai Baht. You will not suffer from currency fluctuations. The GPB went down to 36 bt some years back. Over the years The Thai baht has held up pretty well and the Thai economy is doing better than most. If you want to get some return on your money here you could carefully choose some blue chip Thai stocks to hold for long term. We have done very well on modest property purchases and renting out property. Don't believe the pathetic "Thai bashers" They are mostly ignorant and poorly educated.

[b17]

Consider some money in SGD

Asian currency. Reasonable correlation with THB. More stable than THB. Well managed country and economy with decent regulation. If you're sticking money in Singapore only deposits in SGD are covered by their equivalent of deposit protection up to SGD 50k.

SGD 50k is like THB 350k or so. The OP is talking about a few million baht.

The problem is that every major currency is governed by bad monetary policy - and that means huge volitility. I'd go for gold or platinum myself.

Actually, SGD 50k is ....a lot more than 350k

50,000.00 SGD = 1,303,284.27 THB (on June 30 at 3:29 pm)

Edited June 30, 2016 by b17

[recycler]

In December 2015 Citibank wanted 70,000 US$ at once to open an account while not living in Singapore.

[gandalf12]

I bank in Singapore and have, because I need both GBP and USD, two accounts one in each currency. I would suggest if the account is for sending money to Thailand then get a USD account. If you need another currency then also get an account for that currency.

[fletchsmile]

Consider some money in SGD

Asian currency. Reasonable correlation with THB. More stable than THB. Well managed country and economy with decent regulation. If you're sticking money in Singapore only deposits in SGD are covered by their equivalent of deposit protection up to SGD 50k.

SGD 50k is like THB 350k or so. The OP is talking about a few million baht.

The problem is that every major currency is governed by bad monetary policy - and that means huge volitility. I'd go for gold or platinum myself.

I'd be more than happy to give you THB 350k in return for SGD 50k. In fact I'd go as far as to give you THB 500k if you want

SGD 50k = approx THB 1.3 million.

In a joint account that would be SGD 100k = THB 2.6 million.

And/ or spread it across a couple of banks and you get the picture of how we actually puts "some" money (note the word "some" not "all") in SGD.

He can of course put more than SGD 50k or SGD 100k per person bank, just it's not insured. Bear in mind also, USD, Euros, GBP which he mentions are also not insured as FCY deposits in Singapore. So as OP asked about SGD it seems highly relevant to me

In terms of volatility you mention:

SGD/THB in the 21st century since 31 Dec 1999 has ranged between about 22 and 26; that's a much narrower band than gold:

Gold in THB in the last 5 years alone has ranged from about 18,000 to 27,000. That's of course assuming someone considers it a currency at all and can open an offshore bank account in gold

Cheers

Fletch

Edited June 30, 2016 by fletchsmile

[Oxx]

SGD/THB in the 21st century since 31 Dec 1999 has ranged between about 22 and 26; that's a much narrower band than gold:

I can't comment about gold, but the SGD/THB range has been quite a bit wider than that. In bottomed around 19.6 in July 2007.

[fletchsmile]

SGD/THB in the 21st century since 31 Dec 1999 has ranged between about 22 and 26; that's a much narrower band than gold:

I can't comment about gold, but the SGD/THB range has been quite a bit wider than that. In bottomed around 19.6 in July 2007.

I think you have pulled or been given the offshore THB rate there

Unfortunately when people look these things up on Yahoo FX etc the rates they are shown are often the offshore baht rates.

Usually onshore and offshore are not that different. What gets forgotten or not mentioned when people use tools like Yahoo, is that around that time BOT implemented currency restrictions and the onshore and offshore rates diverged by around 10%. That's the difference between my 22 (onshore) and your 19.6 (offshore).

Sonicdragon has a pinned thread on here near the top of the page from around that time where people discussed it.

Here's the BOT's rate page if you put in 29 June 2007 and 31 July 2007 you'll see around 22.XX

https://www.bot.or.th/English/FinancialMarkets/_layouts/Application/ExchangeRate/ExchangeRate.aspx

What counts for us here in Thailand is the onshore rate. So it's SGD vs THB onshore rate that counts, and what you'd get for your SGD here in Thailand

Brings out a good point though. Also the dangers of thinking that holding THB offshore is the same as onshore and some of the risks of holding offshore THB, in addition to the absence of deposit protection compared to an onshore Thai bank

Edited June 30, 2016 by fletchsmile

[yimlitnoy]

I am also banking at CITI in Bangkok but my understanding is that you will have to fly to Singapore to open in person an account at CITI Singapore. Am I wrong? I tried some weeks ago to open from here an account at CITI Canada and I was told it was not possible without going there myself to open an account in Person... Once you have an account in both countries then you simply make a transfer.

[kbelyeu]

I am also banking at CITI in Bangkok but my understanding is that you will have to fly to Singapore to open in person an account at CITI Singapore. Am I wrong? I tried some weeks ago to open from here an account at CITI Canada and I was told it was not possible without going there myself to open an account in Person... Once you have an account in both countries then you simply make a transfer.

I opened my account by filling out forms and sending the package via DHL. If you need a contact send me a PM and I can send over the guys email that opened my account with.

Citibank account allows you to hold up to 4 difference currencies.

Kurt

[sead]

Just take out cash and plan some trips to Singapore

[English Engineer]

I keep sufficient funds in Thailand to cover upto 3 years living cost. This allows me to choose the timing of any transfer. I bank in Singapore and keep money in SGD, USD and GBP. I do not bother with investment but make good returns on FX.

I personally would be wary of transferring large amounts of money to Thailamd. Easy to transfer in difficult to transfer out.

[Naam]

I keep sufficient funds in Thailand to cover upto 3 years living cost. This allows me to choose the timing of any transfer. I bank in Singapore and keep money in SGD, USD and GBP. I do not bother with investment but make good returns on FX.

I personally would be wary of transferring large amounts of money to Thailamd. Easy to transfer in difficult to transfer out.

funds for 3 years living expenses is a huge pile of cash for some people!

[Naam]

Since you live in Thailand it would be best to keep most of your funds in Thai Baht. You will not suffer from currency fluctuations. The GPB went down to 36 bt some years back. Over the years The Thai baht has held up pretty well and the Thai economy is doing better than most. If you want to get some return on your money here you could carefully choose some blue chip Thai stocks to hold for long term. We have done very well on modest property purchases and renting out property. Don't believe the pathetic "Thai bashers" They are mostly ignorant and poorly educated.

The GPB went down to 36 bt some years back.

these "some" years was 19 years ago during the Asian crisis

[Scotwight]

I keep sufficient funds in Thailand to cover upto 3 years living cost. This allows me to choose the timing of any transfer. I bank in Singapore and keep money in SGD, USD and GBP. I do not bother with investment but make good returns on FX.

I personally would be wary of transferring large amounts of money to Thailamd. Easy to transfer in difficult to transfer out.

Have you personally experienced trouble transferring money out? I do it every year and have for the past decade with no problems.

[Shiver]

I've never tried to open an SG account, but did open a HK (HSBC) account some years ago. No problem except having to do it in person.

Having visited there to open another one for a new company (previous one is a business account also) we had to jump through hurdles and show what business we're in and what qualifications we had to say that we could run a business, and 3 months of statements (hello? no bank account so can't start the business and have bank statements). Despite that we've successfully been banking with them for 7 years with audited accounts, this time it was a wasted journey and a complete waste of time and money.

While looking for a personal account for reasons unrelated to the above two, I came across this for German account: https://www.deutscheskonto.org/en/open-bank-account-germany/ which may be of interest. I'm not that confident about the Euro in the longer term (or many others tbh), but at least from there you can transfer wherever you like should you find a preferable place to park assets. Due diligence required though, as a lot of (most of) the banks are technically insolvent, and I'm not even convinced the insurance companies that bank them are a trustworthy solution either.

I've been called crazy for the next one on the grounds of stability of the country, but I'm actually considering opening an account in Mongolia. On the surface at least it looks stress free, and foreign currency friendly. In their own currency they offer good rates for savings (around 4-5% for USD up to 15%+ for local currency). They're tiny in GDP but probably one of the most healthy debt/asset ratio out there. I just want somewhere away from US/Europe personally, and when looking at Citi Bank in SG I couldn't determine whether the west had any reach in terms of things like suspending accounts without accusation or suspicion. Mongolia is currently under the wings of China to a large degree (Mongolia has minerals, and they work cheaper than in Australia, as well as being closer to China than the alternatives). Even so, it's still worth doing some digging into the stability as they have a kind of 'mono asset' in minerals.

As for getting money out of Thailand, I've never tried (I just don't bring a lot more in than needed, for several reasons). I do think it can be done, but they might make you jump through a few hoops for their permission for you to retrieve your assets (which are their debt anyhow). Just makes me not want to deal with them at all beyond ATM usage. If you did have issues, then perhaps having more than one Thai bank and sending 50K at a time from several, or if you have trusted friends then perhaps they could help. Exchange rates aren't *that* bad, but transfer fees become a significant percentage if not moving a lot at a time. [sarcasm] I think their computers have to work harder for inputting a larger number than a smaller number, so that's why they charge you a percentage of your asset rather than just a fee and exchange rate rake [/sarcasm].

Edited June 30, 2016 by Shiver

[English Engineer]

It is not impossible to move money from Thailand but relatively difficult. According to the Bangkok bank one can transfer 1MTB by filling in a form at the bank. The source of funds does have to be declared. Transfer takes a number of working days. Transferring sums greater than 1MTB requires evidence as to the source of funds. Keeping money in my HSBC account in Singapore allows transfers on line without restriction the next day.

I use 3 years as a backup fund but tthe length of time should be sufficient to avoid having to make transfers at poor rates of exchange. Using a basket of currency also allow greater flexibility in getting the best rate of exchange.

[Scotwight]

I've never tried to open an SG account, but did open a HK (HSBC) account some years ago. No problem except having to do it in person.

Having visited there to open another one for a new company (previous one is a business account also) we had to jump through hurdles and show what business we're in and what qualifications we had to say that we could run a business, and 3 months of statements (hello? no bank account so can't start the business and have bank statements). Despite that we've successfully been banking with them for 7 years with audited accounts, this time it was a wasted journey and a complete waste of time and money.

While looking for a personal account for reasons unrelated to the above two, I came across this for German account: https://www.deutscheskonto.org/en/open-bank-account-germany/ which may be of interest. I'm not that confident about the Euro in the longer term (or many others tbh), but at least from there you can transfer wherever you like should you find a preferable place to park assets. Due diligence required though, as a lot of (most of) the banks are technically insolvent, and I'm not even convinced the insurance companies that bank them are a trustworthy solution either.

I've been called crazy for the next one on the grounds of stability of the country, but I'm actually considering opening an account in Mongolia. On the surface at least it looks stress free, and foreign currency friendly. In their own currency they offer good rates for savings (around 4-5% for USD up to 15%+ for local currency). They're tiny in GDP but probably one of the most healthy debt/asset ratio out there. I just want somewhere away from US/Europe personally, and when looking at Citi Bank in SG I couldn't determine whether the west had any reach in terms of things like suspending accounts without accusation or suspicion. Mongolia is currently under the wings of China to a large degree (Mongolia has minerals, and they work cheaper than in Australia, as well as being closer to China than the alternatives). Even so, it's still worth doing some digging into the stability as they have a kind of 'mono asset' in minerals.

As for getting money out of Thailand, I've never tried (I just don't bring a lot more in than needed, for several reasons). I do think it can be done, but they might make you jump through a few hoops for their permission for you to retrieve your assets (which are their debt anyhow). Just makes me not want to deal with them at all beyond ATM usage. If you did have issues, then perhaps having more than one Thai bank and sending 50K at a time from several, or if you have trusted friends then perhaps they could help. Exchange rates aren't *that* bad, but transfer fees become a significant percentage if not moving a lot at a time. [sarcasm] I think their computers have to work harder for inputting a larger number than a smaller number, so that's why they charge you a percentage of your asset rather than just a fee and exchange rate rake [/sarcasm].

You really should not post about things you have no idea about. http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/CurrencyExchange/Pages/Fees.aspx#2

[Naam]

I've never tried to open an SG account, but did open a HK (HSBC) account some years ago. No problem except having to do it in person.

Having visited there to open another one for a new company (previous one is a business account also) we had to jump through hurdles and show what business we're in and what qualifications we had to say that we could run a business, and 3 months of statements (hello? no bank account so can't start the business and have bank statements). Despite that we've successfully been banking with them for 7 years with audited accounts, this time it was a wasted journey and a complete waste of time and money.

While looking for a personal account for reasons unrelated to the above two, I came across this for German account: https://www.deutscheskonto.org/en/open-bank-account-germany/ which may be of interest. I'm not that confident about the Euro in the longer term (or many others tbh), but at least from there you can transfer wherever you like should you find a preferable place to park assets. Due diligence required though, as a lot of (most of) the banks are technically insolvent, and I'm not even convinced the insurance companies that bank them are a trustworthy solution either.

I've been called crazy for the next one on the grounds of stability of the country, but I'm actually considering opening an account in Mongolia. On the surface at least it looks stress free, and foreign currency friendly. In their own currency they offer good rates for savings (around 4-5% for USD up to 15%+ for local currency). They're tiny in GDP but probably one of the most healthy debt/asset ratio out there. I just want somewhere away from US/Europe personally, and when looking at Citi Bank in SG I couldn't determine whether the west had any reach in terms of things like suspending accounts without accusation or suspicion. Mongolia is currently under the wings of China to a large degree (Mongolia has minerals, and they work cheaper than in Australia, as well as being closer to China than the alternatives). Even so, it's still worth doing some digging into the stability as they have a kind of 'mono asset' in minerals.

As for getting money out of Thailand, I've never tried (I just don't bring a lot more in than needed, for several reasons). I do think it can be done, but they might make you jump through a few hoops for their permission for you to retrieve your assets (which are their debt anyhow). Just makes me not want to deal with them at all beyond ATM usage. If you did have issues, then perhaps having more than one Thai bank and sending 50K at a time from several, or if you have trusted friends then perhaps they could help. Exchange rates aren't *that* bad, but transfer fees become a significant percentage if not moving a lot at a time. [sarcasm] I think their computers have to work harder for inputting a larger number than a smaller number, so that's why they charge you a percentage of your asset rather than just a fee and exchange rate rake [/sarcasm].

You really should not post about things you have no idea about. http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/CurrencyExchange/Pages/Fees.aspx#2

[ExpatOilWorker]

Just open an account with Julius Baer, they have an office in HK, but their broker often travel to Thailand. (https://www.juliusbaer.com/global/en/home)

But, you might need a bit more than $50,000.

[Naam]

Just open an account with Julius Baer, they have an office in HK, but their broker often travel to Thailand. (https://www.juliusbaer.com/global/en/home)

But, you might need a bit more than $50,000.

JB entry level was a few years ago ~$3mm.

[Shiver]

I've never tried to open an SG account, but did open a HK (HSBC) account some years ago. No problem except having to do it in person.

Having visited there to open another one for a new company (previous one is a business account also) we had to jump through hurdles and show what business we're in and what qualifications we had to say that we could run a business, and 3 months of statements (hello? no bank account so can't start the business and have bank statements). Despite that we've successfully been banking with them for 7 years with audited accounts, this time it was a wasted journey and a complete waste of time and money.

While looking for a personal account for reasons unrelated to the above two, I came across this for German account: https://www.deutscheskonto.org/en/open-bank-account-germany/ which may be of interest. I'm not that confident about the Euro in the longer term (or many others tbh), but at least from there you can transfer wherever you like should you find a preferable place to park assets. Due diligence required though, as a lot of (most of) the banks are technically insolvent, and I'm not even convinced the insurance companies that bank them are a trustworthy solution either.

I've been called crazy for the next one on the grounds of stability of the country, but I'm actually considering opening an account in Mongolia. On the surface at least it looks stress free, and foreign currency friendly. In their own currency they offer good rates for savings (around 4-5% for USD up to 15%+ for local currency). They're tiny in GDP but probably one of the most healthy debt/asset ratio out there. I just want somewhere away from US/Europe personally, and when looking at Citi Bank in SG I couldn't determine whether the west had any reach in terms of things like suspending accounts without accusation or suspicion. Mongolia is currently under the wings of China to a large degree (Mongolia has minerals, and they work cheaper than in Australia, as well as being closer to China than the alternatives). Even so, it's still worth doing some digging into the stability as they have a kind of 'mono asset' in minerals.

As for getting money out of Thailand, I've never tried (I just don't bring a lot more in than needed, for several reasons). I do think it can be done, but they might make you jump through a few hoops for their permission for you to retrieve your assets (which are their debt anyhow). Just makes me not want to deal with them at all beyond ATM usage. If you did have issues, then perhaps having more than one Thai bank and sending 50K at a time from several, or if you have trusted friends then perhaps they could help. Exchange rates aren't *that* bad, but transfer fees become a significant percentage if not moving a lot at a time. [sarcasm] I think their computers have to work harder for inputting a larger number than a smaller number, so that's why they charge you a percentage of your asset rather than just a fee and exchange rate rake [/sarcasm].

You really should not post about things you have no idea about. http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/CurrencyExchange/Pages/Fees.aspx#2

Errm, your link right there says it all. They want a percentage for JPY for example. Incoming fees are 0.25% (albeit with a cap), and THB going out of the country takes 0.25% without a cap. When it comes to banking I am always reminded of the line "These people are not your friends". Edited July 1, 2016 by Shiver