‘Scotland’s voice will be heard’ – Sturgeon vows to fight to maintain EU ties

[RuamRudy]

I gather Sturgeon will only call for another vote if she is sure that it would win.

Perhaps the UK leaving the EU will be the impetus that gives her the confidence for another vote to leave the UK?

I've no idea, but suspect that she'll wait until article 50 has been invoked and then check the 'mood' of the Scot electorate.

There have been 4 polls in the past week that have all given Scottish Independence a majority. Of course, this is influenced by Brexit and nobody can deny that there is strong support for the EU in Scotland.

Other than that, I can only fall back on annecdotal evidence. In the past week my Facebook feed has been filled with previously Yes voters who are flush with renewed passion, a few previously No voters who are now questioning whether they did the right thing in 2014, and a few No voters who continue to resolutely oppose any suggestion of independence. So Yes could be gaining ground; it will take a skillful Westminster government (and possibly a miracle) not to further feed the fire.

Do those Scots who would vote for separation,realise that Scotland exports to the rest of the U.K. More than 4times the amount that they export to the E.U. Are they also aware that the economic cornerstone of a seperate Scotland according to A Salmonds is oil. At that time oil was at 110us$ now it is where?

Economically there is no chance of Scotland being financially seperate for the nect 6yrs,and even that would be optimistic, only IF the price of oil goes up, very unlikely as this would lead to the shale oil producers rapping up production,therefore curtailing any increase in value.

In the meantime here is another poster I have received from Scotland.

From the Sunday Times, July 2013: "OIL revenues will be a “bonus”, but not the basis of the economy in an independent Scotland, Alex Salmond has claimed.

The first minister has said that while Scotland would reap the benefits of a boom in the industry, it would be less dependent on oil reserves than Norway."

I have tried to find a source for the quote on your poster but see nothing that even comes close to verifying it. I guess this is Project Fear Part 3?

[Franky Bear]

Similar to the statistic that confirms that 74.5% of Scots want to remain in the EU? I guess, therefore, they have the overriding say on the matter.

You need to accaept it wasn't a regional vote. it was one undertakes by the United Kingdowm which Jocks were more than happy to stay in.

Move on.

[RuamRudy]

Similar to the statistic that confirms that 74.5% of Scots want to remain in the EU? I guess, therefore, they have the overriding say on the matter.

You need to accaept it wasn't a regional vote. it was one undertakes by the United Kingdowm which Jocks were more than happy to stay in.

Move on.

Thankfully we don't need to accept anything of the sort.

[dick dasterdly]

I gather Sturgeon will only call for another vote if she is sure that it would win.

Perhaps the UK leaving the EU will be the impetus that gives her the confidence for another vote to leave the UK?

I've no idea, but suspect that she'll wait until article 50 has been invoked and then check the 'mood' of the Scot electorate.

There have been 4 polls in the past week that have all given Scottish Independence a majority. Of course, this is influenced by Brexit and nobody can deny that there is strong support for the EU in Scotland.

Other than that, I can only fall back on annecdotal evidence. In the past week my Facebook feed has been filled with previously Yes voters who are flush with renewed passion, a few previously No voters who are now questioning whether they did the right thing in 2014, and a few No voters who continue to resolutely oppose any suggestion of independence. So Yes could be gaining ground; it will take a skillful Westminster government (and possibly a miracle) not to further feed the fire.

I can only repeat that Sturgeon will only call for another independence vote if she's sure she'll win.

She hasn't called for another vote, so its reasonable to assume that she's not sure yet whether independence will carry the day with the Scot electorate.

Otherwise, she'd have insisted on another independence vote already,

[bkkcanuck8]

I gather Sturgeon will only call for another vote if she is sure that it would win.

Perhaps the UK leaving the EU will be the impetus that gives her the confidence for another vote to leave the UK?

I've no idea, but suspect that she'll wait until article 50 has been invoked and then check the 'mood' of the Scot electorate.

There have been 4 polls in the past week that have all given Scottish Independence a majority. Of course, this is influenced by Brexit and nobody can deny that there is strong support for the EU in Scotland.

Other than that, I can only fall back on annecdotal evidence. In the past week my Facebook feed has been filled with previously Yes voters who are flush with renewed passion, a few previously No voters who are now questioning whether they did the right thing in 2014, and a few No voters who continue to resolutely oppose any suggestion of independence. So Yes could be gaining ground; it will take a skillful Westminster government (and possibly a miracle) not to further feed the fire.

I can only repeat that Sturgeon will only call for another independence vote if she's sure she'll win.

She hasn't called for another vote, so its reasonable to assume that she's not sure yet whether independence will carry the day for the Scot electorate.

Otherwise, she'd have insisted on another independence vote already,

The referendum in 2014 was a once in a generation event EXCEPT in the event that circumstances change -- the example that was always stated was UK withdrawal from the EU. The UK has not withdrawn from the EU, so Scottish politicians aren't going to risk things. That all changes once article 50 is enacted.

[RuamRudy]

There have been 4 polls in the past week that have all given Scottish Independence a majority. Of course, this is influenced by Brexit and nobody can deny that there is strong support for the EU in Scotland.

Other than that, I can only fall back on annecdotal evidence. In the past week my Facebook feed has been filled with previously Yes voters who are flush with renewed passion, a few previously No voters who are now questioning whether they did the right thing in 2014, and a few No voters who continue to resolutely oppose any suggestion of independence. So Yes could be gaining ground; it will take a skillful Westminster government (and possibly a miracle) not to further feed the fire.

I can only repeat that Sturgeon will only call for another independence vote if she's sure she'll win.

She hasn't called for another vote, so its reasonable to assume that she's not sure yet whether independence will carry the day with the Scot electorate.

Otherwise, she'd have insisted on another independence vote already,

Without a doubt - their bluff was called with the last referendum; the last thing they would want is to go for another without a clear, prolonged and substantive lead in the polls.

Bear in mind that at the outset of the last referendum the Yes numbers were in the low 30s; the starting point for this unofficial campaign in almost parity if not already over halfway. The burden is now predominantly with the UK government to convince us that we are better off leaving the EU and following the rest of the UK.

[Franky Bear]

Ego meets Evil.

[RuamRudy]

Ego meets Evil.

You forgot to mention that Martina Anderson is an MEP and a supporter of the EU.

[Franky Bear]

Ego meets Evil.

You forgot to mention that Martina Anderson is an MEP and a supporter of the EU.

and a terrorist.

[RuamRudy]

You forgot to mention that Martina Anderson is an MEP and a supporter of the EU.

and a terrorist.

Sadly that is the odious nature of the British media and populist politics today - ignore the reason that they were meeting and in which capacity both were there, and just smear, smear, smear.

[Franky Bear]

Sadly that is the odious nature of the British media and populist politics today - ignore the reason that they were meeting and in which capacity both were there, and just smear, smear, smear.

Yeah murdering woman, children and innocent every day people is something that should be brushed under the carpet eh.

[happy Joe]

You forgot to mention that Martina Anderson is an MEP and a supporter of the EU.

and a terrorist.

A beautiful young woman who fought the invading English before and who now denounces Israeli lobbying on the EU is necessarily sympathetic.

[RuamRudy]

Sadly that is the odious nature of the British media and populist politics today - ignore the reason that they were meeting and in which capacity both were there, and just smear, smear, smear.

Yeah murdering woman, children and innocent every day people is something that should be brushed under the carpet eh.

I never suggested that, but you and the tweet you posted hid the fact that they were meeting in an official capacity as Leader of the Scottish Parliament and a Sinn Fein elected MEP - if anything, trying to make capital out of the Troubles.

[Franky Bear]

I never suggested that, but you and the tweet you posted hid the fact that they were meeting in an official capacity as Leader of the Scottish Parliament and a Sinn Fein elected MEP - if anything, trying to make capital out of the Troubles.

She should ignre that evil organisation.

[RuamRudy]

I never suggested that, but you and the tweet you posted hid the fact that they were meeting in an official capacity as Leader of the Scottish Parliament and a Sinn Fein elected MEP - if anything, trying to make capital out of the Troubles.

She should ignre that evil organisation.

If policiticians had previously ignored Sinn Fein, we would not have had the Good Friday agreement and a cessation of IRA activities.

[Franky Bear]

If policiticians had previously ignored Sinn Fein, we would not have had the Good Friday agreement and a cessation of IRA activities.

Most would have rather seen the IRA memebers etc in jail for life. But we let them all out. yeah, that was a ggggreat move.

[bkkcanuck8]

If policiticians had previously ignored Sinn Fein, we would not have had the Good Friday agreement and a cessation of IRA activities.

Most would have rather seen the IRA memebers etc in jail for life. But we let them all out. yeah, that was a ggggreat move.

Although I am not big on amnesties etc. something has changed on the ground. Beforehand there no-one ever believed peace (to the extent that it exists now) was achievable.... how long had the violence been going on? 200 maybe 300 years? Yes, everyone could have taken a hard line and you could have all them (and more in prison) but not have achieved anything.

[nontabury]

I never suggested that, but you and the tweet you posted hid the fact that they were meeting in an official capacity as Leader of the Scottish Parliament and a Sinn Fein elected MEP - if anything, trying to make capital out of the Troubles.

She should ignre that evil organisation.

If policiticians had previously ignored Sinn Fein, we would not have had the Good Friday agreement and a cessation of IRA activities.

Cessation of IRA activities. Are you sure?

[RuamRudy]

If policiticians had previously ignored Sinn Fein, we would not have had the Good Friday agreement and a cessation of IRA activities.

Cessation of IRA activities. Are you sure?

We are getting WAY off topic now, but the Provisional IRA, responsible for most of the republican attrocities, have ceased terrorist operations as far as I am aware. Sadly fringe groups still seem to be in operation, but nobody could argue that the current situation is not infinitely better than just 20 years ago.

[SgtRock]

One of these think-tank views

Scotland risks becoming Greece without the sun, says thinktank

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/02/scotland-risks-becoming-greece-without-sun-thinktank-gove

Not a fan of think tanks but on this occasion I think they might have a point.

[RuamRudy]

One of these think-tank views

Scotland risks becoming Greece without the sun, says thinktank

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/02/scotland-risks-becoming-greece-without-sun-thinktank-gove

Not a fan of think tanks but on this occasion I think they might have a point.

Here is what I don't understand - all you Brexiters who were vociferously challenging the doom-laden predictions of Project Fear 2 are so quickly willing to put all that scepticism aside and jump straight back on the bandwagon because it suits your narrative.

The CPS - founded by Keith Joseph and the Grantham Witch herself - with stated aims to " to roll back the state, reform public services, support communities, and challenge threats to Britain’s independence" claims to play a leading role in the "global role in the dissemination of free market economics along monetarist and, what today would be called, neoliberal lines".

But let's hear it from you - why might they have a point?

Project Fear 3 has started.

[SgtRock]

One of these think-tank views

Scotland risks becoming Greece without the sun, says thinktank

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/02/scotland-risks-becoming-greece-without-sun-thinktank-gove

Not a fan of think tanks but on this occasion I think they might have a point.

Here is what I don't understand - all you Brexiters who were vociferously challenging the doom-laden predictions of Project Fear 2 are so quickly willing to put all that scepticism aside and jump straight back on the bandwagon because it suits your narrative.

The CPS - founded by Keith Joseph and the Grantham Witch herself - with stated aims to " to roll back the state, reform public services, support communities, and challenge threats to Britain’s independence" claims to play a leading role in the "global role in the dissemination of free market economics along monetarist and, what today would be called, neoliberal lines".

But let's hear it from you - why might they have a point?

Project Fear 3 has started.

Get off your high horse. Did you miss my disclaimer ?

Not a fan of think tanks but on this occasion I think they might have a point.

I will tell you why they have a point. GO IT ALONE. No EU backup to hold your hand. That is independence, being part of the EU is in no way independent.

Something that you fail to understand.

[RuamRudy]

Here is what I don't understand - all you Brexiters who were vociferously challenging the doom-laden predictions of Project Fear 2 are so quickly willing to put all that scepticism aside and jump straight back on the bandwagon because it suits your narrative.

The CPS - founded by Keith Joseph and the Grantham Witch herself - with stated aims to " to roll back the state, reform public services, support communities, and challenge threats to Britain’s independence" claims to play a leading role in the "global role in the dissemination of free market economics along monetarist and, what today would be called, neoliberal lines".

But let's hear it from you - why might they have a point?

Project Fear 3 has started.

Get off your high horse. Did you miss my disclaimer ?

Not a fan of think tanks but on this occasion I think they might have a point.

I will tell you why they have a point. GO IT ALONE. No EU backup to hold your hand. That is independence, being part of the EU is in no way independent.

Something that you fail to see.

The first Scottish referendum was a litany of lies and smears and the dirtiest tactics by the No crowd, calling in every parasite and her corgi to instill fear in the Scottish population. I have every right to stand tall on my high horse and object to the renewal of those attacks, and I am more than happy to point out hypocrisy where it exists.

By the way, thank you for your insightful analysis - that will definitely make people sit up and think.

[Jip99]

I fail to see the logic of anyone who bangs on about devolved power from London, and spouts independence from the UK, wanting to be controlled by the EU !!

[SgtRock]

Here is what I don't understand - all you Brexiters who were vociferously challenging the doom-laden predictions of Project Fear 2 are so quickly willing to put all that scepticism aside and jump straight back on the bandwagon because it suits your narrative.

The CPS - founded by Keith Joseph and the Grantham Witch herself - with stated aims to " to roll back the state, reform public services, support communities, and challenge threats to Britain’s independence" claims to play a leading role in the "global role in the dissemination of free market economics along monetarist and, what today would be called, neoliberal lines".

But let's hear it from you - why might they have a point?

Project Fear 3 has started.

Get off your high horse. Did you miss my disclaimer ?

Not a fan of think tanks but on this occasion I think they might have a point.

I will tell you why they have a point. GO IT ALONE. No EU backup to hold your hand. That is independence, being part of the EU is in no way independent.

Something that you fail to see.

The first Scottish referendum was a litany of lies and smears and the dirtiest tactics by the No crowd, calling in every parasite and her corgi to instill fear in the Scottish population. I have every right to stand tall on my high horse and object to the renewal of those attacks, and I am more than happy to point out hypocrisy where it exists.

By the way, thank you for your insightful analysis - that will definitely make people sit up and think.

Care to point out where your post reflects anything I said in my post.

Let me make it a bit easier for you.

In your own words, please explain why YOU think being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

[RuamRudy]

But let's hear it from you - why might they have a point?

Project Fear 3 has started.

Get off your high horse. Did you miss my disclaimer ?

Not a fan of think tanks but on this occasion I think they might have a point.

I will tell you why they have a point. GO IT ALONE. No EU backup to hold your hand. That is independence, being part of the EU is in no way independent.

Something that you fail to see.

The first Scottish referendum was a litany of lies and smears and the dirtiest tactics by the No crowd, calling in every parasite and her corgi to instill fear in the Scottish population. I have every right to stand tall on my high horse and object to the renewal of those attacks, and I am more than happy to point out hypocrisy where it exists.

By the way, thank you for your insightful analysis - that will definitely make people sit up and think.

Care to point out where your post reflects anything I said in my post.

Let me make it a bit easier for you.

In your own words, please explain why YOU think being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

You are the one who presented a scare story and wrote "on this occasion I think they might have a point."

I pointed out that they are far from objective, despite the Guardian's claim that they are independent. They I asked you to explain why you think that they may have a point, bit you deflect it back at me. Either you didn't read the article beyond the headline or you failed to understand their point. Which is it?

Here's a clue: the article makes no mention of sovereignty or the centralisation of power. It is an article about economics.

[SgtRock]

The first Scottish referendum was a litany of lies and smears and the dirtiest tactics by the No crowd, calling in every parasite and her corgi to instill fear in the Scottish population. I have every right to stand tall on my high horse and object to the renewal of those attacks, and I am more than happy to point out hypocrisy where it exists.

By the way, thank you for your insightful analysis - that will definitely make people sit up and think.

Care to point out where your post reflects anything I said in my post.

Let me make it a bit easier for you.

In your own words, please explain why YOU think being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

You are the one who presented a scare story and wrote "on this occasion I think they might have a point."

I pointed out that they are far from objective, despite the Guardian's claim that they are independent. They I asked you to explain why you think that they may have a point, bit you deflect it back at me. Either you didn't read the article beyond the headline or you failed to understand their point. Which is it?

Here's a clue: the article makes no mention of sovereignty or the centralisation of power. It is an article about economics.

Stunning effort in deflection.

So I will ask again.

In your own words, please explain why YOU think being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

[RuamRudy]

Care to point out where your post reflects anything I said in my post.

Let me make it a bit easier for you.

In your own words, please explain why YOU think being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

You are the one who presented a scare story and wrote "on this occasion I think they might have a point."

I pointed out that they are far from objective, despite the Guardian's claim that they are independent. They I asked you to explain why you think that they may have a point, bit you deflect it back at me. Either you didn't read the article beyond the headline or you failed to understand their point. Which is it?

Here's a clue: the article makes no mention of sovereignty or the centralisation of power. It is an article about economics.

Stunning effort in deflection.

So I will ask again.

In your own words, please explain why YOU think being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

You are outdoing yourself this morning, Private.

- You post an article about the economics of an independent Scotland and claim that the writer has a point.

- I ask you to clarify which points raised meet with your assessment

- You then duck that but turn it around to ask a question that has been asked and answered so many times over the past 3 years that it has become boring

- I then asked you not to deflect the thread, but to answer my earlier question of the economics proposed in the article you posted

- You then accuse me of deflection!

Are you simply trolling this thread?

[SgtRock]

You are the one who presented a scare story and wrote "on this occasion I think they might have a point."

I pointed out that they are far from objective, despite the Guardian's claim that they are independent. They I asked you to explain why you think that they may have a point, bit you deflect it back at me. Either you didn't read the article beyond the headline or you failed to understand their point. Which is it?

Here's a clue: the article makes no mention of sovereignty or the centralisation of power. It is an article about economics.

Stunning effort in deflection.

So I will ask again.

In your own words, please explain why YOU think being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

You are outdoing yourself this morning, Private.

- You post an article about the economics of an independent Scotland and claim that the writer has a point.

- I ask you to clarify which points raised meet with your assessment

- You then duck that but turn it around to ask a question that has been asked and answered so many times over the past 3 years that it has become boring

- I then asked you not to deflect the thread, but to answer my earlier question of the economics proposed in the article you posted

- You then accuse me of deflection!

Are you simply trolling this thread?

It does not matter which points raised I agree with or disagree with.

I am not ducking anything, I have nothing to duck. I said the article has made a point that I happen to agree with.

If anyone is trolling it is you.

Yet again I will ask you.

In YOUR own words explain how being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

It should be really simple and it will put the issue to bed once and for all. You are the one that constantly shouts about Scotland being Independent,

I am in favour of Scotland being Independent, not being tied to the EU.

No need to come back with yet more deflections. A simple put up or shut up will suffice.

[RuamRudy]

Stunning effort in deflection.

So I will ask again.

In your own words, please explain why YOU think being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

You are outdoing yourself this morning, Private.

- You post an article about the economics of an independent Scotland and claim that the writer has a point.

- I ask you to clarify which points raised meet with your assessment

- You then duck that but turn it around to ask a question that has been asked and answered so many times over the past 3 years that it has become boring

- I then asked you not to deflect the thread, but to answer my earlier question of the economics proposed in the article you posted

- You then accuse me of deflection!

Are you simply trolling this thread?

It does not matter which points raised I agree with or disagree with.

I am not ducking anything, I have nothing to duck. I said the article has made a point that I happen to agree with.

If anyone is trolling it is you.

Yet again I will ask you.

In YOUR own words explain how being part of the EU equates to being Independent.

It should be really simple and it will put the issue to bed once and for all. You are the one that constantly shouts about Scotland being Independent,

I am in favour of Scotland being Independent, not being tied to the EU.

No need to come back with yet more deflections. A simple put up or shut up will suffice.

OK, I apologise for putting you on the spot - clearly you either did not read the article you posted, or you do not have a sufficient understanding of its topic to be able to do anything other than copying and paste the link. Therefore I retract my initial question - please feel under no obligation to explain why you agree with the article.

As for your deflective question: the powers held by the Scottish Parliament are afforded to it at the discretion of Westminster, meaning that they can be withdrawn at any time through a Westminster majority. Essentially, Holyrood exists because London allows it to, but only the likelihood of public outrage is preventing those devolved powers being interfered with. The EU was built with State power in mind; Scottish devolution was not. We will see with Brexit, when Scotland refuses to amend the Scotland Act 1998, whether London has the balls to change Scots law against the will of the Scottish Parliament - and without that amendment, Brexit cannot proceed.

The EU legislates on union wide issues because its member states allow it to do so. Scotland has, currently, no right whatosever to get involved in matters of defence, international diplomacy etc. In the EU we can leave should we choose to do so; in the UK we are bound by an act of parliament. The EU provides judicial oversight on human rights issues, an area that the UK government has proven time and time again that they are willing to stomp all over. I do not trust Westminster in general, and Theresa May in particular.