Little England and not-so-Great-Britain

[MJP]

^ I agree entirely.

Joe Cox was another example of a hard working, honest, politician from the grass roots of our society, some who won her place at our very best university purely on merit and went back to represent the people she grew up with - look at the price she paid for the hatred being peddled in our society.

The politics of the far right is the politics of misery and death.

Edited July 12, 2016 by MJP

[bkkcanuck8]

^ I agree entirely.

Joe Cox was another example of a hard working, honest, politician from the grass roots of our society, some who won her place at our very best university purely on merit and went back to represent the people she grew up with - look at the price she paid for the hatred being peddled in our society.

The politics of the far right is the politics of misery and death.

I don't know if I agree with that - more that often the politics of far right are also the politics of hatred and racism.... but that is because the right wing politics is more about demagoguery than it should be. But it may be because my preferred political scale has more than just measuring right or left because it does not allow for more complex differences.

I prefer a 4 quadrant view of political view.... where left and right are economic and up and down is social scale (authoritarian vs freedom).

I sort of like the viewpoint of how webpages https://www.politicalcompass.org/ try to quantify the political wings (I usually fall fairly solidly into the bottom right in those types of tests).

[MJP]

^ I agree entirely.

Joe Cox was another example of a hard working, honest, politician from the grass roots of our society, some who won her place at our very best university purely on merit and went back to represent the people she grew up with - look at the price she paid for the hatred being peddled in our society.

The politics of the far right is the politics of misery and death.

I don't know if I agree with that - more that often the politics of far right are also the politics of hatred and racism.... but that is because the right wing politics is more about demagoguery than it should be. But it may be because my preferred political scale has more than just measuring right or left because it does not allow for more complex differences.

I prefer a 4 quadrant view of political view.... where left and right are economic and up and down is social scale (authoritarian vs freedom).

I sort of like the viewpoint of how webpages https://www.politicalcompass.org/ try to quantify the political wings (I usually fall fairly solidly into the bottom right in those types of tests).

I mean skinhead, Nazi salute type extreme far right. Not right wing conservatism.

[GuestHouse]

^ I agree entirely.

Joe Cox was another example of a hard working, honest, politician from the grass roots of our society, some who won her place at our very best university purely on merit and went back to represent the people she grew up with - look at the price she paid for the hatred being peddled in our society.

The politics of the far right is the politics of misery and death.

I regard the extreme right and the extreme left as indistinguishable.

But right now the UK is swinging hard right, and that is never a good thing for the people at the bottom end of our society. That the voted for the consequences they are about to face is likely to be cold comfort.

Because rest assured, the people who win in society are always the same people, the people who lose are always the same people. The much called for 'deregulation' of the British economy is going to focus on removing what protections people have at the bottom of society from people at the top.

[bkkcanuck8]

I regard the extreme right and the extreme left as indistinguishable.

But right now the UK is swinging hard right, and that is never a good thing for the people at the bottom end of our society. That the voted for the consequences they are about to face is likely to be cold comfort.

Because rest assured, the people who win in society are always the same people, the people who lose are always the same people. The much called for 'deregulation' of the British economy is going to focus on removing what protections people have at the bottom of society from people at the top.

That is because both of those "political" movements tend toward authoritarian in the social scale as oppose to liberty. Both tend to see that they are right, and what they see is right is right for everyone.

[MJP]

^ I agree entirely.

Joe Cox was another example of a hard working, honest, politician from the grass roots of our society, some who won her place at our very best university purely on merit and went back to represent the people she grew up with - look at the price she paid for the hatred being peddled in our society.

The politics of the far right is the politics of misery and death.

I regard the extreme right and the extreme left as indistinguishable.

But right now the UK is swinging hard right, and that is never a good thing for the people at the bottom end of our society. That the voted for the consequences they are about to face is likely to be cold comfort.

Because rest assured, the people who win in society are always the same people, the people who lose are always the same people. The much called for 'deregulation' of the British economy is going to focus on removing what protections people have at the bottom of society from people at the top.

I agree. But we must beg the question, why? What has caused these divisions in our society?

I'll have a go at answering, but please don't think I agree with what I write below on an individual level, I'm just trying to stand in others shoes to make sense of it . . .

Enforced multiculturalism, especially in poorer de-industrialised areas; Mass immigration, pretty much uncontrolled; Political correctness enforced to the criminal penalty level; A war against traditional family values and the active promotion of homosexuality in the media and by government (my brother's gay and it doesn't bother me); Middle class cultural Marxism, rule for thee but not for me type of hypocrisy; A move from an industrialised nation to a service economy, excluding many from both the unskilled to the skilled trades; Domestic victims of globalisation and welfare trap; The rent seeker economy, buy-to-let etc. and the housing bubble.

Until we get to the bottom of why, our criticism of those who hold the beliefs we find offensive has no validity.

[ddavidovsky]

I regard the extreme right and the extreme left as indistinguishable.

But right now the UK is swinging hard right, and that is never a good thing for the people at the bottom end of our society. That the voted for the consequences they are about to face is likely to be cold comfort.

Because rest assured, the people who win in society are always the same people, the people who lose are always the same people. The much called for 'deregulation' of the British economy is going to focus on removing what protections people have at the bottom of society from people at the top.

That is because both of those "political" movements tend toward authoritarian in the social scale as oppose to liberty. Both tend to see that they are right, and what they see is right is right for everyone.

People slosh over to the right of the bell-shaped curve from time to time, but they slide back again. I think that's what's happening now: a radical movement for the purpose of readjusting society. Without that sudden shift there'll be no adjustment at all. Once society is recalibrated (things really had got out of hand) then some degree of normality will return.

There's no need to label every kind of nationalism as Nazism. Paranoia of Nazism has plunged Europe into over-compensatory liberalism ever since WWII that is quite damaging in ways that ordinary people care about, and it's about time the politicians got over it.

[jpinx]

You guys could do with reading a bit of history - especially Social History. All societies are stratified, all have disenchanted and disenfranchised levels, and 10% of most populations hold or control 90% of the wealth. This nothing new, and no amount of "fixing" will fix it - - it's human nature. Civilised(?) man is insatiable, and his hungers are expressed in whingeing or throwing themselves into work, or art, or many of the activities available. I have never met a truly happy millionaire (and I have met a lot) but I *have* met some truly happy beggars. This has been debated since Aristotle and TVF ain't going to fix it anytime soon

[MJP]

You guys could do with reading a bit of history - especially Social History. All societies are stratified, all have disenchanted and disenfranchised levels, and 10% of most populations hold or control 90% of the wealth. This nothing new, and no amount of "fixing" will fix it - - it's human nature. Civilised(?) man is insatiable, and his hungers are expressed in whingeing or throwing themselves into work, or art, or many of the activities available. I have never met a truly happy millionaire (and I have met a lot) but I *have* met some truly happy beggars. This has been debated since Aristotle and TVF ain't going to fix it anytime soon

Funny you should mention wealth and happiness. I know well some extremely rich people and I can't, hand on heart, say they're happy people, far from it.

[GuestHouse]

You guys could do with reading a bit of history - especially Social History. All societies are stratified, all have disenchanted and disenfranchised levels, and 10% of most populations hold or control 90% of the wealth. This nothing new, and no amount of "fixing" will fix it - - it's human nature. Civilised(?) man is insatiable, and his hungers are expressed in whingeing or throwing themselves into work, or art, or many of the activities available. I have never met a truly happy millionaire (and I have met a lot) but I *have* met some truly happy beggars. This has been debated since Aristotle and TVF ain't going to fix it anytime soon

Yes I agree.

But having read some social history I'm also very aware of the dangers of racism and xenophobia, how these can promoted to gain power, how they get out of control and the extremes of abuse they give rise to.

The use of racist and xenophobic arguments was a decision by factions within the Brexit campaign, they call on the very worst of human nature.

Racism and xenophobia must have no part in our political life.

[Khun Han]

It's used all the time against us by assorted EU nationalists: 'You Brits.....<fill in desired insult and follow with accusation of nationalism/zenophobia>'

I see that something akin to what I posted above earlier has continued apace in recent posts. Apparently, it's perfectly ok for non-Brit Europeans to make sweeping and derogatory generalisations about a huge swathe of the British population. It's not racist or zenophobic to do so at all, oh no, not at all, expecially if you dress it up with a bit of pseudo-intellectual 'analysis'. But if we Brits so much as defend ourselves, well..... And if we even broach such issues as any kind of quality control at our borders, that's just so ugly.

The thing that gets me is these hypocrites are quite incapable of a little self-analysis in order to address their own prejudices. But i suppose that's why they are such hypocrites .

Edited July 12, 2016 by Khun Han

[jpinx]

I hold my hand up and admit that I am prejudiced --- against extremists, bigots, missionaries, politicans and journalists -- not necessarily in that order

[jaidam]

It's used all the time against us by assorted EU nationalists: 'You Brits.....<fill in desired insult and follow with accusation of nationalism/zenophobia>'

I see that something akin to what I posted above earlier has continued apace in recent posts. Apparently, it's perfectly ok for non-Brit Europeans to make sweeping and derogatory generalisations about a huge swathe of the British population. It's not racist or zenophobic to do so at all, oh no, not at all, expecially if you dress it up with a bit of pseudo-intellectual 'analysis'. But if we Brits so much as defend ourselves, well..... And if we even broach such issues as any kind of quality control at our borders, that's just so ugly.

The thing that gets me is these hypocrites are quite incapable of a little self-analysis in order to address their own prejudices. But i suppose that's why they are such hypocrites .

Blatent double standards. Against white people anything goes. Was only a few years ago Sarkozy -(in a major speech thankfully all over youtube for all time) said he would use force to end the traditional Caucasian culture( genocide if he wasnt talking about white people. Edited July 12, 2016 by jaidam

[MJP]

It's used all the time against us by assorted EU nationalists: 'You Brits.....<fill in desired insult and follow with accusation of nationalism/zenophobia>'

I see that something akin to what I posted above earlier has continued apace in recent posts. Apparently, it's perfectly ok for non-Brit Europeans to make sweeping and derogatory generalisations about a huge swathe of the British population. It's not racist or zenophobic to do so at all, oh no, not at all, expecially if you dress it up with a bit of pseudo-intellectual 'analysis'. But if we Brits so much as defend ourselves, well..... And if we even broach such issues as any kind of quality control at our borders, that's just so ugly.

The thing that gets me is these hypocrites are quite incapable of a little self-analysis in order to address their own prejudices. But i suppose that's why they are such hypocrites .

Blatent double standards. Against white people anything goes. Was only a few years ago Sarkozy -(in a major speech thankfully all over youtube for all time) said he would use force to end the traditional Caucasian culture( genocide if he wasnt talking about white people.

. . . but they don't wonder why there's a rise in the far right and the Generation Identitaire movement in France, just that it must be crushed.

Action > Reaction.

[MissAndry]

The controls against overfishing and subsequent rebound of fishing stocks that were previously over fished and in danger of collapsing is an EU policy success.

So why isn't cod available in English fish and chip shops?

A EU success story ...... but no fish to eat ...... sounds about right.

When were you last in an English fish and chip shop?

Hoki and chips anyone? "Tastes just like cod madame" I think not.

[ilostmypassword]

I agree. The racist nonsense needs to stop. This isn't about race, colour, etc.

It is about the UK's future self-determination outside an increasingly centralised federalist EU, an EU which ain't all roses.

By the way. Do you know anything about the ITER Tokamak project?

I agree entirely - accept the bit about he UK's future self-determination outside an increasingly centralised federalist EU

My view is the UK's best interests are in a reformed EU and I shall continue to make that argument.

EU was never going to reform. Its instinct was expansion of both power and geographical influence. Not good in my opinion.

“The most puzzling development in politics during the last decade is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe.” ― Mikhail Gorbachev

I've tried tracking down this so-called quote of Gorbachev's and so far no luck. My usual rule about quotes is that if they're too good to be true, they probably are invented. I always verify the source before I use them.

Edited July 13, 2016 by ilostmypassword

[ilostmypassword]

The controls against overfishing and subsequent rebound of fishing stocks that were previously over fished and in danger of collapsing is an EU policy success.

So why isn't cod available in English fish and chip shops?

A EU success story ...... but no fish to eat ...... sounds about right.

When were you last in an English fish and chip shop?

Hoki and chips anyone? "Tastes just like cod madame" I think not.

Because the price of cod has gone way up over the past decades.. And you know the big reason why that is? Because American which used to have the biggest cod fishery in the world failed to protect it from overfishing. So the cod population collapsed and it's never come back. In addition to which the Alaskan cod fishery is currently on a moratorium to conserve stocks. It took years for Europe to agree to a program to protect their various fisheries. And now Brexiteers suffer from the illusion that they can just tell everyone off, or renegotiate the fisheries on terms favorable to them by fiat. Or by gunboat. If in fact they go ahead with such a program the most likely result will be that fish stocks will collapse as everyone scrambles to get what they can. Or will British gunboats be cruising into other nations' fisheries to stop them from netting fish in order to conserve UK stocks?

[GuestHouse]

It's used all the time against us by assorted EU nationalists: 'You Brits.....<fill in desired insult and follow with accusation of nationalism/zenophobia>'

I see that something akin to what I posted above earlier has continued apace in recent posts. Apparently, it's perfectly ok for non-Brit Europeans to make sweeping and derogatory generalisations about a huge swathe of the British population. It's not racist or zenophobic to do so at all, oh no, not at all, expecially if you dress it up with a bit of pseudo-intellectual 'analysis'. But if we Brits so much as defend ourselves, well..... And if we even broach such issues as any kind of quality control at our borders, that's just so ugly.

The thing that gets me is these hypocrites are quite incapable of a little self-analysis in order to address their own prejudices. But i suppose that's why they are such hypocrites .

You need to be a little bit passive and tells us which particular assorted posts you are are referring to, otherwise nobody can make any meaningful judgement on what you have said.

Who, for example, are these non-Brit Europeans making sweeping derogatory generalisations about a huge swathe of the British population?

[GuestHouse]

The controls against overfishing and subsequent rebound of fishing stocks that were previously over fished and in danger of collapsing is an EU policy success.

So why isn't cod available in English fish and chip shops? (1)

A EU success story ...... but no fish to eat ...... sounds about right.

When were you last in an English fish and chip shop? (2)

Hoki and chips anyone? "Tastes just like cod madame" I think not.

(1) You're statement that there is no Cod available in English fish and chip shops is blatantly incorrect, we need only one example to demonstrate it to be so, but here's a couple just for good measure http://www.harryramsdens.co.uk/Uploads/users/branding/cb4cf60515975e3b3d81de5636332a8c/2015/05/25/otKPuqwB_main-menu.pdf ... http://www.danielsfishandchips.co.uk/menu.html

(2) I was last in an English fish and chip shop (and I ordered, received and ate Cod) on Friday 20 May 2016, I was last in a Scottish chip shop on Thursday 23rd of June 2016 ( I had Place, not because there was no Cod but because I fancied Place) and I shall next be in an English fish and chip shop on Friday 22nd of July 2016, I shall make a point of ordering Cod, not because you've got me worried its running out, but because I almost always order Cod.

Maybe, you are wrong on this point?!

[GuestHouse]

The controls against overfishing and subsequent rebound of fishing stocks that were previously over fished and in danger of collapsing is an EU policy success.

So why isn't cod available in English fish and chip shops?

A EU success story ...... but no fish to eat ...... sounds about right.

When were you last in an English fish and chip shop?

Hoki and chips anyone? "Tastes just like cod madame" I think not.

Because the price of cod has gone way up over the past decades.. And you know the big reason why that is? Because American which used to have the biggest cod fishery in the world failed to protect it from overfishing. So the cod population collapsed and it's never come back. In addition to which the Alaskan cod fishery is currently on a moratorium to conserve stocks. It took years for Europe to agree to a program to protect their various fisheries. And now Brexiteers suffer from the illusion that they can just tell everyone off, or renegotiate the fisheries on terms favorable to them by fiat. Or by gunboat. If in fact they go ahead with such a program the most likely result will be that fish stocks will collapse as everyone scrambles to get what they can. Or will British gunboats be cruising into other nations' fisheries to stop them from netting fish in order to conserve UK stocks?

Probably the late eighties, I had a sea angling boat on the south coast based at a club, just a rod and line hobby. We were told not to bring Cod ashore , catching one was hard enough, let alone taking one home...

I've highlighted the cause of the misery you suffered while line fishing and the improvement that nasty EU policy has had in Cod availability for the future is linked below:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/environment/12150836/North-Sea-cod-could-be-sustainable-by-2017.html

[i claudius]

I was in a couple of fish and chip shops in the UK a couple of months ago ,plenty of cod , but i like rock salmon ,myself ,not keen on cod .

[soalbundy]

This has gone down hill fast, now its about fish and chips

[GuestHouse]

This has gone down hill fast, now its about fish and chips

I think its a desperate search for the English culture we are told is under threat.

That fish & chips are an import from Belgium is just a bit of dry humour for us to enjoy.

Edited July 13, 2016 by GuestHouse

[soalbundy]

This has gone down hill fast, now its about fish and chips

I think its a desperate search for the English culture we are told is under threat.

That fish & chips are an import from Belgium is just a bit of dry humour for us to enjoy.

English culture, well there obviously used to be some judging by all the ancient Norman (oops Nordic foreigners) buildings still standing. I found it amusing when some time ago a genetic survey of the British isles was done and it was found that the English genetic make up resembled the Germans more than anything else and that the Welsh were far more removed from us than the Germans.

[MissAndry]

This has gone down hill fast, now its about fish and chips

I think its a desperate search for the English culture we are told is under threat.

That fish & chips are an import from Belgium is just a bit of dry humour for us to enjoy.

It's only an import if you put mayonnaise on your chips.

Stick to salt and vinegar and it's British.

[GuestHouse]

This has gone down hill fast, now its about fish and chips

I think its a desperate search for the English culture we are told is under threat.

That fish & chips are an import from Belgium is just a bit of dry humour for us to enjoy.

It's only an import if you put mayonnaise on your chips.

Stick to salt and vinegar and it's British.

So like many of the very best things in British culture, happy British twist on something that was imported or was introduced to Brits by foreigners.

Long may the cultural exchange and constant evolution of British culture continue.

[MissAndry]

So like many of the very best things in British culture, happy British twist on something that was imported or was introduced to Brits by foreigners.

Next someone will try to claim 'Chicken Tikka Masala' isn't British!

[GuestHouse]

So like many of the very best things in British culture, happy British twist on something that was imported or was introduced to Brits by foreigners.

Next someone will try to claim 'Chicken Tikka Masala' isn't British!

I certainly won't

It's another example of happy British twist on an imported culture and how food is so often a point at which cultures mix and learn from each other.

I might forego the Cod for a CTM, now you've reminded me of one of my favourite dishes.

[Khun Han]

So like many of the very best things in British culture, happy British twist on something that was imported or was introduced to Brits by foreigners.

Next someone will try to claim 'Chicken Tikka Masala' isn't British!

It certainly aint found too often in the Indian archipelago!

Another thing that hacks me off about these people who try to put the brexiters down is their claiming of the only rights to being multicultural. Just another example of their narrow-minded bigotry I suppose.

[Jai Dee]

Flame posts (personal attacks) and replies have been removed from this thread.