Israel approves new West Bank settlements amid surge in Palestinian violence

[thaibeachlovers]

Irrespective of any other discussion, the headline seems to have left out the word "illegal" in front of "settlements". That in itself speaks volumes.

Perhaps because the legality of those "settlements" is a grey area, as under Israeli law they are not illegal, and the "state of Palestine" does not exist now and has never existed in all of history.

No, stating those facts does NOT mean that I'm personally in support of expanded Jewish "settlements" in the west bank. I agree that they are not helpful towards any potential peace process, just as Palestinian terrorism is not helpful towards that either.

This is a long standing, very COMPLEX conflict, and assigning all the blame to one side or the other is a denial of reality.

There is no grey area. Modern Israel exists only inside the borders allocated by the UN in 1948 ( forget what was Israel in the Bible ), though it seems to be accepted that the 1967 borders are current. Any Israeli settlement outside those borders is illegal.

Palestine does not need to exist as a nation to prevent Israeli settlements- de facto occupation by a homogenous people is sufficient- expelling them would be ethnic cleansing, and isn't that the reason the UN approved the new state, because of what happened to the Jews of Europe? The British certainly thought Palestine existed when they occupied it.

[thaibeachlovers]

Of course, my personal hope is for a real two state solution, as unlikely as that seems now. Sometimes I get the strong feeling that many espousing the Israel demonization agenda are much more about punishing Israel (and often worse) than any sincere interest in a compromised peaceful solution. Recently Abbas pushed back at criticism that BOTH Israeli settlement expansion AND Palestinian terrorism needed to be addressed to move towards peace. He only wanted to blame Israel ONLY. No blame on his side. That is obviously garbage, yet seems to have so much support from the Israel demonization agenda.

I'm not for punishing Israel any more than is required to get them off this trajectory that makes the 2 state solution more and more difficult every time they annex a little more Palestinian land (Palestinian according to the UN). At some point, they'll have so many Israelis settled on annexed land that the 2 state solution (and peace) will be politically and economically impossible. And I don't believe that's accidental, or incidental.

Yeah, maybe.

But the other side is to consider why so many Israelis have given up on any hope that Palestinians will ever stop being violent towards them. Settlements or no settlements. So there is no trust on either side. I don't have the answers, but neither do you.

Most Palestinians were born after the 1967 war. They have known nothing but Israeli oppression their whole lives. Young people with no hope for a better life will inevitably turn to revolution. The early Americans did so for less than that which Palestinians suffer. Have no doubt, Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

[Johpa]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

[Jingthing]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

Jordan doesn't really want them though, right?

[Ulysses G.]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

Jordan doesn't really want them though, right?

NOBODY wants them. They are despised by other Arabs and not allowed to immigrate anywhere in the Middle East.

As King Fahd, of Saudi Arabia, said, "Next to the Jews, we hate the Palestinians the most."

[ilostmypassword]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

Jordan doesn't really want them though, right?

NOBODY wants them. They are despised by other Arabs and not allowed to immigrate anywhere in the Middle East.

As King Fahd, of Saudi Arabia, said, "Next to the Jews, we hate the Palestinians the most."

I guess this means you endorse King Fahd's anti-semitism too. I know that if I were a member of a group despised by the Saudis, I would consider it a badge of honor.

[Steely Dan]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

Jordan doesn't really want them though, right?

NOBODY wants them. They are despised by other Arabs and not allowed to immigrate anywhere in the Middle East.
As King Fahd, of Saudi Arabia, said, "Next to the Jews, we hate the Palestinians the most."

I guess this means you endorse King Fahd's anti-semitism too. I know that if I were a member of a group despised by the Saudis, I would consider it a badge of honor.

We keep it quiet for now but Israel made peace with the Saudis around 2006, now they are a major customer for Israeli arms. Of course the 'official' position will take a while to follow for obvious reasons.

[ilostmypassword]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

Jordan doesn't really want them though, right?

NOBODY wants them. They are despised by other Arabs and not allowed to immigrate anywhere in the Middle East.

As King Fahd, of Saudi Arabia, said, "Next to the Jews, we hate the Palestinians the most."

I guess this means you endorse King Fahd's anti-semitism too. I know that if I were a member of a group despised by the Saudis, I would consider it a badge of honor.

We keep it quiet for now but Israel made peace with the Saudis around 2006, now they are a major customer for Israeli arms. Of course the 'official' position will take a while to follow for obvious reasons.

Well, I guess that makes it okay, then. Exactly how is that relevant.

As people who know anything about the mideast can tell you, the Palestinians were among the most highly educated Arabs in the middle east. They were the leaders in medicine, science, and literature. So is it any surprise that the Saudis would hate them?

And as for your information about the Israelis selling arms to the Saudis. I gotta say, your previous so-called information hasn't panned out so well. Where are those UAE crack forces that were supposed to shred the Syrian army? And what about the Houthis who, according to you, were on the verge of collapse several months ago?

[dick dasterdly]

Irrespective of any other discussion, the headline seems to have left out the word "illegal" in front of "settlements". That in itself speaks volumes.

Perhaps because the legality of those "settlements" is a grey area, as under Israeli law they are not illegal, and the "state of Palestine" does not exist now and has never existed in all of history.

No, stating those facts does NOT mean that I'm personally in support of expanded Jewish "settlements" in the west bank. I agree that they are not helpful towards any potential peace process, just as Palestinian terrorism is not helpful towards that either.

This is a long standing, very COMPLEX conflict, and assigning all the blame to one side or the other is a denial of reality.

Thanks for that, as up until then I wasn't sure whether or not to 'like' impulse's post.

Your comment about it being 'a grey area as its not illegal under Israeli law' gave me the required impetus to 'like' impulse's post.

[Jingthing]

Irrespective of any other discussion, the headline seems to have left out the word "illegal" in front of "settlements". That in itself speaks volumes.

Perhaps because the legality of those "settlements" is a grey area, as under Israeli law they are not illegal, and the "state of Palestine" does not exist now and has never existed in all of history.

No, stating those facts does NOT mean that I'm personally in support of expanded Jewish "settlements" in the west bank. I agree that they are not helpful towards any potential peace process, just as Palestinian terrorism is not helpful towards that either.

This is a long standing, very COMPLEX conflict, and assigning all the blame to one side or the other is a denial of reality.

Thanks for that, as up until then I wasn't sure whether or not to 'like' impulse's post.

Your comment about it being 'a grey area as its not illegal under Israeli law' gave me the required impetus to 'like' impulse's post.

Like what you like. I wasn't commenting on whether the Israeli law that doesn't define west bank settlements as illegal is GOOD or not, just that is the current REALITY. To resolve conflicts, you need to face REALITY, and start from there.

When you're SERIOUSLY looking at issues in that region, Israel, West Bank, etc. what ISRAELI law says about things is extremely relevant. Like it or not.

Also keep in mind that a significant portion of Israels are not in favor of expanded West Bank settlements, and it's understood that any hope for a negotiated two state solution needs to address such settlements. The more right wing factions in Israeli politics, of course, are not interested in such deals just as significant forces on the Palestinian side aren't interested in peace agreements either.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

Jordan doesn't really want them though, right?

NOBODY wants them. They are despised by other Arabs and not allowed to immigrate anywhere in the Middle East.

As King Fahd, of Saudi Arabia, said, "Next to the Jews, we hate the Palestinians the most."

Between Iraq and a hard place, innit? Not literally Iraq of course.

[dick dasterdly]

Irrespective of any other discussion, the headline seems to have left out the word "illegal" in front of "settlements". That in itself speaks volumes.

Perhaps because the legality of those "settlements" is a grey area, as under Israeli law they are not illegal, and the "state of Palestine" does not exist now and has never existed in all of history.

No, stating those facts does NOT mean that I'm personally in support of expanded Jewish "settlements" in the west bank. I agree that they are not helpful towards any potential peace process, just as Palestinian terrorism is not helpful towards that either.

This is a long standing, very COMPLEX conflict, and assigning all the blame to one side or the other is a denial of reality.

Thanks for that, as up until then I wasn't sure whether or not to 'like' impulse's post.

Your comment about it being 'a grey area as its not illegal under Israeli law' gave me the required impetus to 'like' impulse's post.

Like what you like. I wasn't commenting on whether the Israeli law that doesn't define west bank settlements as illegal is GOOD or not, just that is the current REALITY. To resolve conflicts, you need to face REALITY, and start from there.

When you're SERIOUSLY looking at issues in that region, Israel, West Bank, etc. what ISRAELI law says about things is extremely relevant. Like it or not.

I've no doubt that ISRAELI law is extremely relevant in the region and the current REALITY - but that doesn't make ISRAELI law more acceptable to the rest of the world.

[Jingthing]

I've no doubt that ISRAELI law is extremely relevant in the region and the current REALITY - but that doesn't make ISRAELI law more acceptable to the rest of the world.

I don't doubt that at all but I would hope Palestinian terrorism, murdering teenage girls in their beds, is not acceptable to the rest of the world either. This is what I find so annoying and disingenuous about the Israel demonization agenda -- an irrational insistence on painting this decades long conflict as ONE sided. It is nothing of the kind.

[dick dasterdly]

I've no doubt that ISRAELI law is extremely relevant in the region and the current REALITY - but that doesn't make ISRAELI law more acceptable to the rest of the world.

I don't doubt that at all but I would hope Palestinian terrorism, murdering teenage girls in their beds, is not acceptable to the rest of the world either. This is what I find so annoying and disingenuous about the Israel demonization agenda -- an irrational insistence on painting this decades long conflict as ONE sided. It is nothing of the kind.

Of course its not one-sided!

But sometimes posts are so ridiculous (e.g. 'its not illegal according to Israeli law) that even those of us who think the Palestinians were worse at the start, realise that nowadays the Israeli supporters are relying on ridiculous arguments to support the Israelis being far worse now.

[Jingthing]

Pointing out facts is ridiculous. Sure thing, dude.

I'll take this even further, showing something that is REALLY ridiculous.

A Palestinian political agenda that seriously thinks they are going to reach an acceptable solution that doesn't involve DIRECT negotiation with ISRAEL.

Now, that is ridiculous on steroids.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[dick dasterdly]

Pointing out facts is ridiculous. Sure thing, dude.

I'll take this even further, showing something that is REALLY ridiculous.

A Palestinian political agenda that seriously thinks they are going to reach an acceptable solution that doesn't involve DIRECT negotiation with ISRAEL.

Now, that is ridiculous on steroids.

Stating that the occupation 'is not illegal according to Israeli law', is precisely why you will never understand why so many others are unhappy about what is happening .

[Jingthing]

Pointing out facts is ridiculous. Sure thing, dude.

I'll take this even further, showing something that is REALLY ridiculous.

A Palestinian political agenda that seriously thinks they are going to reach an acceptable solution that doesn't involve DIRECT negotiation with ISRAEL.

Now, that is ridiculous on steroids.

Stating that the occupation 'is not illegal according to Israeli law', is precisely why you will never understand why so many others are unhappy about what is happening .

Dude, you are tripping. I was pointing out facts that the players on the ground there must deal with. I was not implying that I support expanded Israeli settlements in the west bank. I also do not support Palestinian terrorism or a policy of not being willing to directly negotiate with Israel.

[dick dasterdly]

Pointing out facts is ridiculous. Sure thing, dude.

I'll take this even further, showing something that is REALLY ridiculous.

A Palestinian political agenda that seriously thinks they are going to reach an acceptable solution that doesn't involve DIRECT negotiation with ISRAEL.

Now, that is ridiculous on steroids.

Stating that the occupation 'is not illegal according to Israeli law', is precisely why you will never understand why so many others are unhappy about what is happening .

Dude, you are tripping. I was pointing out facts that the players on the ground there must deal with. I was not implying that I support expanded Israeli settlements in the west bank. I also do not support Palestinian terrorism or a policy of not being willing to directly negotiate with Israel.

We're going round in circles, so I'll repeat a previous post:-

"I've no doubt that ISRAELI law is extremely relevant in the region and the current REALITY - but that doesn't make ISRAELI law more acceptable to the rest of the world"

The capital letters were mimicking your post to which I was replying .

My point was that your argument that 'the occupation is not illegal according to Israeli law' is a v poor argument indeed - and how I know that you will never understand why others can disagree with your view.

Edited July 10, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[Steely Dan]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

Jordan doesn't really want them though, right?

NOBODY wants them. They are despised by other Arabs and not allowed to immigrate anywhere in the Middle East.
As King Fahd, of Saudi Arabia, said, "Next to the Jews, we hate the Palestinians the most."

I guess this means you endorse King Fahd's anti-semitism too. I know that if I were a member of a group despised by the Saudis, I would consider it a badge of honor.

We keep it quiet for now but Israel made peace with the Saudis around 2006, now they are a major customer for Israeli arms. Of course the 'official' position will take a while to follow for obvious reasons.

Well, I guess that makes it okay, then. Exactly how is that relevant.
As people who know anything about the mideast can tell you, the Palestinians were among the most highly educated Arabs in the middle east. They were the leaders in medicine, science, and literature. So is it any surprise that the Saudis would hate them?
And as for your information about the Israelis selling arms to the Saudis. I gotta say, your previous so-called information hasn't panned out so well. Where are those UAE crack forces that were supposed to shred the Syrian army? And what about the Houthis who, according to you, were on the verge of collapse several months ago?

You can believe none of it, if that makes you happier. To give reams of evidence of Israeli-Arab ties are improving would be off topic, suffice to say the Obama era is fast ending and Israel has both sides covered come the next president.

http://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/Clinton-supporters-axe-Israel-occupation-add-in-Democratic-platform-459935

Incidentally Trump is on the record as stating Israel should keep expanding settlements. Whichever way you look at it time is not on the side of those wanting to weaken Israel.

[Jingthing]

Pointing out facts is ridiculous. Sure thing, dude.

I'll take this even further, showing something that is REALLY ridiculous.

A Palestinian political agenda that seriously thinks they are going to reach an acceptable solution that doesn't involve DIRECT negotiation with ISRAEL.

Now, that is ridiculous on steroids.

Stating that the occupation 'is not illegal according to Israeli law', is precisely why you will never understand why so many others are unhappy about what is happening .

Dude, you are tripping. I was pointing out facts that the players on the ground there must deal with. I was not implying that I support expanded Israeli settlements in the west bank. I also do not support Palestinian terrorism or a policy of not being willing to directly negotiate with Israel.

We're going round in circles, so I'll repeat a previous post:-

"I've no doubt that ISRAELI law is extremely relevant in the region and the current REALITY - but that doesn't make ISRAELI law more acceptable to the rest of the world"

The capital letters were mimicking your post to which I was replying .

My point was that your argument that 'the occupation is not illegal according to Israeli law' is a v poor argument indeed - and how I know that you will never understand why others can disagree with your view.

I agree, this is in circles. So you think under Israeli law the settlements are illegal? Is that the falsehood I'm not going to understand? Dude, I deal with reality, not fantasies. That doesn't mean I agree with west bank settlement expansion, which I don't.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

...

You can believe none of it, if that makes you happier. To give reams of evidence of Israeli-Arab ties are improving would be off topic, suffice to say the Obama era is fast ending and Israel has both sides covered come the next president.

http://www.jpost.com/US-Elections/Clinton-supporters-axe-Israel-occupation-add-in-Democratic-platform-459935

Incidentally Trump is on the record as stating Israel should keep expanding settlements. Whichever way you look at it time is not on the side of those wanting to weaken Israel.

Well, the odds of trump being president are slim and trump isn't exactly a reliable person on foreign policy for anywhere, as he has zero experience and almost zero knowledge in that area.

As far as the democratic platform, yes, you're right, Hillary Clinton is the likely next U.S. president, and she is definitely somewhat to the right of Obama on Israel policy.

But just because there isn't the word occupation, or illegal occupation in the platform, does not mean Clinton or the democratic party is in favor of expanded Israeli settlements in the west bank. They definitely are NOT.

The language is a matter of not rocking the boat for INTERNAL election year politics. For the democrats to put language like that in the platform would be an invitation to the republicans to make political gains based on that. That is not worth it. Obama (who most Israelis despise) did not have language like that in his TWO platforms, so Hillary Clinton is definitely not going to either. IF Bernie Sanders had won the nomination, he would have gotten that language, and it likely would have contributed to his likely loss against ANY republican.

Edited July 10, 2016 by Jingthing

[Johpa]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

Jordan doesn't really want them though, right?

Perhaps not at the moment as the West Bank population has little connection to the ruling Hashem clan. But the possibility of a Mediterranean port (Gaza) is an attractive carrot.

[thaibeachlovers]

Irrespective of any other discussion, the headline seems to have left out the word "illegal" in front of "settlements". That in itself speaks volumes.

Perhaps because the legality of those "settlements" is a grey area, as under Israeli law they are not illegal, and the "state of Palestine" does not exist now and has never existed in all of history.

No, stating those facts does NOT mean that I'm personally in support of expanded Jewish "settlements" in the west bank. I agree that they are not helpful towards any potential peace process, just as Palestinian terrorism is not helpful towards that either.

This is a long standing, very COMPLEX conflict, and assigning all the blame to one side or the other is a denial of reality.

Thanks for that, as up until then I wasn't sure whether or not to 'like' impulse's post.

Your comment about it being 'a grey area as its not illegal under Israeli law' gave me the required impetus to 'like' impulse's post.

Like what you like. I wasn't commenting on whether the Israeli law that doesn't define west bank settlements as illegal is GOOD or not, just that is the current REALITY. To resolve conflicts, you need to face REALITY, and start from there.

When you're SERIOUSLY looking at issues in that region, Israel, West Bank, etc. what ISRAELI law says about things is extremely relevant. Like it or not.

Also keep in mind that a significant portion of Israels are not in favor of expanded West Bank settlements, and it's understood that any hope for a negotiated two state solution needs to address such settlements. The more right wing factions in Israeli politics, of course, are not interested in such deals just as significant forces on the Palestinian side aren't interested in peace agreements either.

You seem to be saying that present reality is more important than right or wrong.

I hope you aren't actually saying that.

The whole debate is whether Israel has a right or not to occupy Palestine and oppress the legal inhabitants. If only reality matters then it does not bode well for the future of mankind as the strong take whatever they want.

Israel continues to do what it does only because the US supports them. If a US president that does not support Israel takes over, Israel is toast.

[thaibeachlovers]

Israel has sown the wind and the whirlwind is coming.

Alas the Israelis have made it clear that they can live with the occasional costs of a troublesome whirlwind and respond with a full fledged tornado. The Palestinians, and even the Gazans would, in my mind, be better off by being reabsorbed by Jordan rather than continuing on this old tiresome path that leads both sides nowhere.

Jordan doesn't really want them though, right?

Perhaps not at the moment as the West Bank population has little connection to the ruling Hashem clan. But the possibility of a Mediterranean port (Gaza) is an attractive carrot.

While Israel would be happy to banish all Palestinians to Jordan, there is no way they would allow Jordan to become owners of Gaza/ west bank. Also, would the Egyptians give land to Jordan to make an access corridor?

[thaibeachlovers]

Pointing out facts is ridiculous. Sure thing, dude.

I'll take this even further, showing something that is REALLY ridiculous.

A Palestinian political agenda that seriously thinks they are going to reach an acceptable solution that doesn't involve DIRECT negotiation with ISRAEL.

Now, that is ridiculous on steroids.

Stating that the occupation 'is not illegal according to Israeli law', is precisely why you will never understand why so many others are unhappy about what is happening .

Dude, you are tripping. I was pointing out facts that the players on the ground there must deal with. I was not implying that I support expanded Israeli settlements in the west bank. I also do not support Palestinian terrorism or a policy of not being willing to directly negotiate with Israel.

Dude, why would an oppressed people be "willing" to negotiate directly with the bully that has it's boot on the victim's neck?

Till Israel negotiates with the Palestinians as EQUALS it's not going to happen.

[Ulysses G.]

Dude, why would an oppressed people be "willing" to negotiate directly with the bully that has it's boot on the victim's neck?

Maybe because the Palestinians started the violence/conflict in the first place. The only reason they are "oppressed" is because they lost numerous wars, which THEY started and they keep refusing to make peace. They are their own worst enemies.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

I guess this means you endorse King Fahd's anti-semitism too.

What a stupid comment. Quoting King Faud's comments about Palestinians and Jews does not mean that I agree with him.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Ulysses G.