Chiangmai is getting expensive and slowly changing ....these days

[NoshowJones]

No, he's right. There's been a change just in the past five years. Everything has become much more busy. Little touches of service have disappeared. Small stuff, but it adds up. For the most part, they no longer put your bags into your cart at Tops. The cashiers at Rim Ping often don't give that pretty little wai when they hand you your change. (The cashiers at Tops always were a little lazy about this).

Outrageous.

The little people not bowing and worshiping us.

They should be accused of stealing and locked up for their disrespect.

I don't mean the service has gone down in a disrespectful way and I believe Nancy was putting the same points , perhaps words misinterpreted

I have spent years in the Indochina area - Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia before I discovered Chiangmai.

My initial stay here was filled with lovely memories. It was not meant that the people were bowing etc but the atmosphere was unlike Bangkok or Phuket.

There was a gentleness of the people you meet daily ....from the guys at first Rimping riverfront to the Khao Soy Lamduan ...people had a smile to the face, the city traffic was not crazy and the people were willing to help you with the trolleys not because we are kings but because this was Chiangmaj and people were friendly and thought this was a great service

I remembered my first security guard at the first condo I stayed at , I always had a smile for him , spoke to him With a hullo and a cold soda drink during the hot season ....he always had a smile for me , when he saw me coming back with groceries, he would volunteer to help and always shared pictures of his family with me.

I teach my Son to salute the Guards at the moobaan , say thank you to the street vendors etc as I want him to have manners and not a style of entitlement.

Even in Fujian when he is fussed upon as he is a regular like dad, I have never allowed him to believe the lovely team there was to serve him but the warm smiles there makes the lunch always a great experience

The price has been creeping up , the roads more crowded ...so I'm ranting a little and turning nostalgic I miss the small things and the friendly smiles and the Chiangmai pace of life

You can still find it but you have to drive further and hope the Chinese have not found it

as I want him to have manners and not a style of entitlement.

The Thais don't know what manners are, and you can't expect them to. This is their country and because some Westerners say a certain thing is manners, it may not be manners to the Thais.

[Puwa]

There's no point in clinging to old beliefs and perceptions of how a place was, or in longing for what it used to be. Adapt, or abandon.

[LawrenceChee]

No, he's right. There's been a change just in the past five years. Everything has become much more busy. Little touches of service have disappeared. Small stuff, but it adds up. For the most part, they no longer put your bags into your cart at Tops. The cashiers at Rim Ping often don't give that pretty little wai when they hand you your change. (The cashiers at Tops always were a little lazy about this).

Outrageous.

The little people not bowing and worshiping us.

They should be accused of stealing and locked up for their disrespect.

I don't mean the service has gone down in a disrespectful way and I believe Nancy was putting the same points , perhaps words misinterpreted

I have spent years in the Indochina area - Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia before I discovered Chiangmai.

My initial stay here was filled with lovely memories. It was not meant that the people were bowing etc but the atmosphere was unlike Bangkok or Phuket.

There was a gentleness of the people you meet daily ....from the guys at first Rimping riverfront to the Khao Soy Lamduan ...people had a smile to the face, the city traffic was not crazy and the people were willing to help you with the trolleys not because we are kings but because this was Chiangmaj and people were friendly and thought this was a great service

I remembered my first security guard at the first condo I stayed at , I always had a smile for him , spoke to him With a hullo and a cold soda drink during the hot season ....he always had a smile for me , when he saw me coming back with groceries, he would volunteer to help and always shared pictures of his family with me.

I teach my Son to salute the Guards at the moobaan , say thank you to the street vendors etc as I want him to have manners and not a style of entitlement.

Even in Fujian when he is fussed upon as he is a regular like dad, I have never allowed him to believe the lovely team there was to serve him but the warm smiles there makes the lunch always a great experience

The price has been creeping up , the roads more crowded ...so I'm ranting a little and turning nostalgic I miss the small things and the friendly smiles and the Chiangmai pace of life

You can still find it but you have to drive further and hope the Chinese have not found it

as I want him to have manners and not a style of entitlement.

The Thais don't know what manners are, and you can't expect them to. This is their country and because some Westerners say a certain thing is manners, it may not be manners to the Thais.

Doesn't stop me for trying as I would expect both my sons to grow up and int'l jet setters like myself...so manners, languages matter to me. The Thai neighbours and the guards like my children tremendously for respecting their jobs and Thai manners of behaving themselves...of course speaking with a Brit clip accent is funny too to most of them....

[ggt]

You have not seen anything yet! You will look back on today's prices and call them the good-ole-days...enjoy it while you can...

[Mark123456]

"service which used to be very personable has dropped a notch here with the younger generations seemingly unwilling to go the extra mile or perhaps just tired from the crowds we are seeing these days,"

the younger generation is totally useless and brain dead for the most part, faces glued to mobiles, reading shallow worthless garbage. you go in somewhere to do business and 80% of the time they don't want to put down the mobile and do the job they are getting paid to do.

i went to a friend's pharmacy last week. he wasn't in but had a girl there who i assume was a recent CMU graduate based upon her uniform. she was the only one in and had her earplugs in, watching something on her iPhone, laughing. there were 2 customers; me and a woman. she failed to notice either of us standing at the counter and we could not get her attention because the earplugs. the woman walked out. i rang my friend on his mobile as i stood there and told him the situation. he thanked me and said he saw the same thing when he came in the day before. she was fired a day or two later.

sincerely hope karma comes to bite you back one day,pathetic farang should be ashamed of your self.

Please explain the "pathetic farang" remark.

One, he was not served as a customer should be. Two the shop was owned by a friend. If you owned a business and staff were causing customers to leave, would you not want to know about it?

Or would you let your staff do as they pleased and still pay them? If so give me a job! Ashamed, you should be with your ignorance of life.

Was that a Yoda impression at the end there?

[The manic]

I wasn't just talking about lack of respect toward white people, but customers in general. The clerks at Tops and Rim Ping used to wai and place bags in the carts for everyone, not just us foreign customers.

And yes, I speak Thai, but my accent is bad. I read the language much better and basically Hubby and I were "helping ourselves" in the appliance shop by reading the Thai signs to compare products. It was interesting that the young clerks weren't making eye contact and certainly weren't following us around like they used to. When I tried to talk with one in Thai to ask a question, he just ran off and got the manager. No attempt to try to figure out what I was saying. Again, this is an indication of a decline in service level. Used to be that you got "extra credit" for initiating a conversation in the Thai language and sales clerks would take the time to figure out your question. They didn't flee from you!

' You speak Thai but your accent is bad - I presume you mean cannot use Tones correctly. Either way- if you speak a language but people cannot understand you then by definition- You do not speak that language! Do not pretend otherwise.

[cmsally]

I think most foreigners (me included) don't like to be followed around the store. Try Siam TV ! They intently follow ! My first 10 mins in there is to whizz around the displays and wear all the sales staff out. When they are all taking a breath I can get to browse in peace !

A lot of store staff are wising up to the fact most foreigners don't like to be tracked around the shop.

[NancyL]

I wasn't just talking about lack of respect toward white people, but customers in general. The clerks at Tops and Rim Ping used to wai and place bags in the carts for everyone, not just us foreign customers.

And yes, I speak Thai, but my accent is bad. I read the language much better and basically Hubby and I were "helping ourselves" in the appliance shop by reading the Thai signs to compare products. It was interesting that the young clerks weren't making eye contact and certainly weren't following us around like they used to. When I tried to talk with one in Thai to ask a question, he just ran off and got the manager. No attempt to try to figure out what I was saying. Again, this is an indication of a decline in service level. Used to be that you got "extra credit" for initiating a conversation in the Thai language and sales clerks would take the time to figure out your question. They didn't flee from you!

' You speak Thai but your accent is bad - I presume you mean cannot use Tones correctly. Either way- if you speak a language but people cannot understand you then by definition- You do not speak that language! Do not pretend otherwise.

What a hostile comment. Obviously, you don't understand how most foreigners learn to speak Thai. Eventually, they learn to use the tones, but it's correct pronunciation of the vowels that can be the most difficult, specifically the minor differences between the many vowels and especially the subtle difference between a long and short vowel. The Thai ear is used to hearing the vowels pronounced correctly while the consonants slide all over the place, while in English we pronounce consonants correctly, no matter our accent, yet vowels can be very fluid, depending upon accent. Thus, an Aussie can understand an American who can understand a Scotsman (usually) even though all use vowels very differently. The Thai ear can't handle this fluidity in vowels.

The fact is that most Thai people can understand me when I speak. When someone acts like they don't, it's because they're not making the effort -- it simply isn't important to them. That's what's relevant to this thread.

[hml367]

NancyL,

Maybe, "The fact is that most Thai people can understand me when I speak. ", only Thais that often are around farangs can understand you when you speak. I think if you speak to Thais that are not around farangs often, you will find that most cannot understand a farang speaking Thai unless they have tones, vowel length, etc. correct.

In my opinion, you are correct about relevant to this thread only if people are thinking and talking about inside Chiang Mai city.

[Puwa]

The fact is that most Thai people can understand me when I speak. When someone acts like they don't, it's because they're not making the effort -- it simply isn't important to them.

Irrespective of how well or poorly you may speak Thai, yours is an astoundingly arrogant statement. If someone can't understand you, it couldn't possibly owe to a mistake on your part, but on the listener's laziness and lack of interest. In my 26 years speaking Thai, I have learned that the less one knows, the greater the tendency to overestimate her ability. Blame it on the "Thai ear," because you are infallible. Ugh.

[NancyL]

I found the comment that if people cannot understand you, then you cannot speak the language to be very hostile.

I can't image the person posting that would make that comment to a Thai person who was trying very hard to speak English and had studied the language. To flat out say that person "couldn't speak the language" because the listener couldn't (or wouldn't make the effort) to understand is more a reflection on the listener and not the speaker.

[hml367]

I found the comment that if people cannot understand you, then you cannot speak the language to be very hostile.

I can't image the person posting that would make that comment to a Thai person who was trying very hard to speak English and had studied the language. To flat out say that person "couldn't speak the language" because the listener couldn't (or wouldn't make the effort) to understand is more a reflection on the listener and not the speaker.

You found someone's comment hostile: many times you take offense when someone disagrees with your thoughts.

And therein lies the difference in thinking and attitude (in the second paragraph). People's attitude can show through their actions and Thai people, and many other Asia peoples, can read this very well. This ability has been lost in the West for many years. I was taught this in the early 70's in a college psychology course.

To the original post and title of the thread, I don't think Chiang Mai has changed in a different way than many and most other places in the world. When I came to Chiang Mai the first time, the exchange rate was fixed at 25 baht per one US dollar. For many years after coming here, any computer and most computer equipment was far more expensive than in the US. I purchased computers from the US and I had to sign a release that I would not "export" the computer and/or software out of the US.

As has been posted already, things change everywhere. I am amazed when I go to other Western and Western influenced countries at the prices. Fortunately, I do not have to travel that often.

[Oscar2]

I found the comment that if people cannot understand you, then you cannot speak the language to be very hostile.

I can't image the person posting that would make that comment to a Thai person who was trying very hard to speak English and had studied the language. To flat out say that person "couldn't speak the language" because the listener couldn't (or wouldn't make the effort) to understand is more a reflection on the listener and not the speaker.

You found someone's comment hostile: many times you take offense when someone disagrees with your thoughts.

And therein lies the difference in thinking and attitude (in the second paragraph). People's attitude can show through their actions and Thai people, and many other Asia peoples, can read this very well. This ability has been lost in the West for many years. I was taught this in the early 70's in a college psychology course.

To the original post and title of the thread, I don't think Chiang Mai has changed in a different way than many and most other places in the world. When I came to Chiang Mai the first time, the exchange rate was fixed at 25 baht per one US dollar. For many years after coming here, any computer and most computer equipment was far more expensive than in the US. I purchased computers from the US and I had to sign a release that I would not "export" the computer and/or software out of the US.

As has been posted already, things change everywhere. I am amazed when I go to other Western and Western influenced countries at the prices. Fortunately, I do not have to travel that often.

right. spend a few days in Korea and/or Japan. you'll be crying for Thailand's prices.

[mania]

I found the comment that if people cannot understand you, then you cannot speak the language to be very hostile.

I can't image the person posting that would make that comment to a Thai person who was trying very hard to speak English and had studied the language. To flat out say that person "couldn't speak the language" because the listener couldn't (or wouldn't make the effort) to understand is more a reflection on the listener and not the speaker.

I don't post often anymore & read every few days or so....

But I tend to agree with what your saying here Nancy

But another thing I have noticed is the CM forums as well as TV overall have become much more hostile in recent years.

(no I am not thin skinned either )

I also notice your posts in particular tend to often take a bashing & I cannot understand having read many of your attempts to help folks here

exactly what these folks have against you...Obviously they have a chip going pretty much about anything you post

You know it is kind of sad to see....As folks like yourself that actually do help many

rather than just type quips online are these days far & few between

[Mark123456]

I wasn't just talking about lack of respect toward white people, but customers in general. The clerks at Tops and Rim Ping used to wai and place bags in the carts for everyone, not just us foreign customers.

And yes, I speak Thai, but my accent is bad. I read the language much better and basically Hubby and I were "helping ourselves" in the appliance shop by reading the Thai signs to compare products. It was interesting that the young clerks weren't making eye contact and certainly weren't following us around like they used to. When I tried to talk with one in Thai to ask a question, he just ran off and got the manager. No attempt to try to figure out what I was saying. Again, this is an indication of a decline in service level. Used to be that you got "extra credit" for initiating a conversation in the Thai language and sales clerks would take the time to figure out your question. They didn't flee from you!

' You speak Thai but your accent is bad - I presume you mean cannot use Tones correctly. Either way- if you speak a language but people cannot understand you then by definition- You do not speak that language! Do not pretend otherwise.

What a hostile comment. Obviously, you don't understand how most foreigners learn to speak Thai. Eventually, they learn to use the tones, but it's correct pronunciation of the vowels that can be the most difficult, specifically the minor differences between the many vowels and especially the subtle difference between a long and short vowel. The Thai ear is used to hearing the vowels pronounced correctly while the consonants slide all over the place, while in English we pronounce consonants correctly, no matter our accent, yet vowels can be very fluid, depending upon accent. Thus, an Aussie can understand an American who can understand a Scotsman (usually) even though all use vowels very differently. The Thai ear can't handle this fluidity in vowels.

The fact is that most Thai people can understand me when I speak. When someone acts like they don't, it's because they're not making the effort -- it simply isn't important to them. That's what's relevant to this thread.

The consonants certainly don't 'slide all over the place'. I can only think of one with an acceptable alternative sound, all the others need to be spot on - especially given the closeness in sound of some of the aspirated/non-aspirated pairs. Not trying to start an argument or drag the thread even further off topic but I think any Thai shop assistant is going to find it difficult to understand somebody whose pronunciation is badly off. And, if we were to give them the benefit of the doubt, perhaps they think running away is better than having to explain they have no idea what you are saying. I admit I'm looking on the rosy side of things here but they might just be trying to avoid making you lose face (in their eyes) or being confrontational by telling you they cannot understand your Thai. I think shyness and a desire to avoid problems is more likely than laziness, in many cases.

[NancyL]

I found the comment that if people cannot understand you, then you cannot speak the language to be very hostile.

I can't image the person posting that would make that comment to a Thai person who was trying very hard to speak English and had studied the language. To flat out say that person "couldn't speak the language" because the listener couldn't (or wouldn't make the effort) to understand is more a reflection on the listener and not the speaker.

I don't post often anymore & read every few days or so....

But I tend to agree with what your saying here Nancy

But another thing I have noticed is the CM forums as well as TV overall have become much more hostile in recent years.

(no I am not thin skinned either )

I also notice your posts in particular tend to often take a bashing & I cannot understand having read many of your attempts to help folks here

exactly what these folks have against you...Obviously they have a chip going pretty much about anything you post

You know it is kind of sad to see....As folks like yourself that actually do help many

rather than just type quips online are these days far & few between

Yes, thank you mania.

I noticed the same thing with Northern John, frankly. Some people were very unkind with him. Sure he had a "way" with spelling and sometimes he could be a little confused with his facts, but he did seem to bring out the "attack mode" in some people. At least now that he's gone everyone, including those that used to attack him, are saying nice things about him.

[mpyre]

No, he's right. There's been a change just in the past five years. Everything has become much more busy. Little touches of service have disappeared. Small stuff, but it adds up. For the most part, they no longer put your bags into your cart at Tops. The cashiers at Rim Ping often don't give that pretty little wai when they hand you your change. (The cashiers at Tops always were a little lazy about this).

When you go into the TV or household goods area of Central Dept store you can wander for hours and no one hovers, pointing to the item you're looking at making "helpful" observations like "blue" or "on-off". This used to annoy me, but now I miss it. The other day we went to Power Buy (part of the Central group) to purchase a clothes washing machine, same thing where Hubby and wandered around the store looking at every clothes washer (it should have been evident we were serious shoppers) and when we finally found someone who would make eye contact they had to go find the store manager to locate someone able to understand our poor attempts at Thai. Apparently he was the only one in the store who spoke English. Used to be more staff in places like this spoke English or at least made an attempt.

It's as if everyone is busier, more adsorbed in their phones, maybe studying Chinese now instead of English. I don't know. But there's definitely a different vibe.

typical American attitude to the natives why are they not treating my like royalty after all im a bigoted white American,with more money than you,i deserve respect and first class service, TIT.its there country and its you who should be giving them respect,

I wouldn't say it is typical of Americans in general, just some...generally upper-middle class types, the faux hi-so of the USA...and certainly imperious attitudes can be found among expats and tourists of every ethnic persuasion, from every corner of the globe...wouldn't you agree?

[Mark123456]

No, he's right. There's been a change just in the past five years. Everything has become much more busy. Little touches of service have disappeared. Small stuff, but it adds up. For the most part, they no longer put your bags into your cart at Tops. The cashiers at Rim Ping often don't give that pretty little wai when they hand you your change. (The cashiers at Tops always were a little lazy about this).

When you go into the TV or household goods area of Central Dept store you can wander for hours and no one hovers, pointing to the item you're looking at making "helpful" observations like "blue" or "on-off". This used to annoy me, but now I miss it. The other day we went to Power Buy (part of the Central group) to purchase a clothes washing machine, same thing where Hubby and wandered around the store looking at every clothes washer (it should have been evident we were serious shoppers) and when we finally found someone who would make eye contact they had to go find the store manager to locate someone able to understand our poor attempts at Thai. Apparently he was the only one in the store who spoke English. Used to be more staff in places like this spoke English or at least made an attempt.

It's as if everyone is busier, more adsorbed in their phones, maybe studying Chinese now instead of English. I don't know. But there's definitely a different vibe.

typical American attitude to the natives why are they not treating my like royalty after all im a bigoted white American,with more money than you,i deserve respect and first class service, TIT.its there country and its you who should be giving them respect,

I wouldn't say it is typical of Americans in general, just some...generally upper-middle class types, the faux hi-so of the USA...and certainly imperious attitudes can be found among expats and tourists of every ethnic persuasion, from every corner of the globe...wouldn't you agree?

I find a good 75% of people I meet in Thailand have a strange attitude toward life in general and the way they interact with locals, regardless of their nationality.

[orpheus454]

the younger generation is totally useless and brain dead for the most part, faces glued to mobiles, reading shallow worthless garbage.

Brilliant irony! I've never read better.

You, sir, are a master satirist.

Thank you for your post.

[dingdongrb]

canned fruit

I really can't understand how someone who lives in a country where fresh fruit is readily available and inexpensive eats fruit out of a can....

thank you for your positive contribution to this forum.

I'm glad I could help.... Oh BTW, getting diabetes from eating too much overly sweetened canned fruit sugar and syrup isn't really a positive thing.... at least I don't consider it to be.

[dingdongrb]

But another thing I have noticed is the CM forums as well as TV overall have become much more hostile in recent years.

(no I am not thin skinned either )

I've come to the conclusion that those that have been posting in this forum and website for many years are just bored with life as well as getting old and senile.... Perhaps they can't find anything else to do all day or are not physically capable of getting up, going out, and doing something.

[CMKiwi]

I sincerely hope you're not referring to NancyL. You would probably be surprised to learn that she is quite an active person who actually gets off her arse and mingles a lot with the local community.

[true blue]

I sincerely hope you're not referring to NancyL. You would probably be surprised to learn that she is quite an active person who actually gets off her arse and mingles a lot with the local community.

propaly talking about you,if the cap fits.

[NancyL]

Oh dear, now they're talking about my arse. Time to get to the fitness center!

[LawrenceChee]

Strange in CM forum....how a thread of rising prices could turn into personal attacks on members....maybe it's really the friendliness factor that has declined...

[MissAndry]

Strange in CM forum....how a thread of rising prices could turn into personal attacks on members....maybe it's really the friendliness factor that has declined...

It surprised me!

[CMKiwi]

I sincerely hope you're not referring to NancyL. You would probably be surprised to learn that she is quite an active person who actually gets off her arse and mingles a lot with the local community.

propaly talking about you,if the cap fits.

Very poor attempt at trying to wind me up.....

And at 53 I'm still very active and outgoing, as one should be.

[nemrut]

During your 6yrs here, havent you noticed a lot more farang staying long term and making this their home just like you?

Most come primarily due to the low cost of living without recognizing the fact they contribute to increased prices in their attempt to maintain a western lifestyle which also increases demand for western style services.

Let's not forget the increased burden this higher standard of living and consumption places on an already strained 3rd world infrastructure.

CM and much of Thailand can be a good place to live socially, but too many come here thinking theyre getting a bargain lifestyle without taking into account the lower quality of life in a developing country (eg, poor air, water, food, municipal svcs, etc).

[daveAustin]

Everywhere is more expensive and less personable (you should visit the south!), but, afaic, CM started going down soon after the dude uploaded the 'how to live comfortably in CM for a grand a month' article, exacerbated by the Chinese invasion. It's a shame, everything changes and nostalgia is nostalgia, but CM really was a great place.

[mamborobert]

Is some of this a function of Thai Economics 101 whereby if you have a reduction in customers you simply increase your prices. I ask this as even with Farang businesses I have noted some sizeable increases with no apparent increase in supply or labor costs. As a small example (that hopefully will not drag out the "it's only ten baht brigade") a local farang bar for me increased the price of your standard "bar" coke from 30 baht to 40 baht. This was not done to move on those who "sit" on drinks be it coke, water, or beer, or increase rent etc, it was freely admitted that it was to maintain income with reduced customers.

Attributing rises to increasing expat numbers with no regards to the actual finances of those expats makes no sense, especially given the recent CEC doggy bag episode, and now the bar episode with the other group (rubbing stamps of business cards to get another free drink). I have lost count of the amount of threads that mention the word "cheap" for food, transport, border runs.....perhaps the increase in digital nomads is a factor here. Quantity may be up, but quality in an economic sense may not.

I think generally rich or poor people are not spending their money, a bit of a world wide issue now. Then you have the specifics of Thailand, going into ASEAN as less than competitive, issues with fishing industry for EU and others, factories reducing production and laying off staff, exports reducing, political uncertainty of referendum, ageing monarch, junta government, increasing household debt and defaults, property glut and length of time to sell, questionable education standards, Bangkok verses North, the list goes on and on.

Appreciating that generalizations are a bad thing but to me many Thai are not good financial planners, and when it comes to work attend rather than perform. They are simply not competitive with neighbouring nations on productivity or labour costs and multi nationals are taking note when setting up businesses. On top of that Thailand is not the bastion of democracy any more and other countries have much more stable regime/governments with which to do business.

To me for Thai or Farang the uncertainty or risk volatility (economics wise) is way up the scale here now. Causing people to spend less, curb lifestyle, and try and have a bigger (or any) safety net. Those that have dollars are perhaps not spending or spending as much adopting a "wait and see" approach. Perhaps this has a flow on effect to Thai attitudes and general happiness. Even the junta noticed this when they started off with the "bringing happiness back to the people" campaign.

At least it's not hot any more