Refusal !

[markr]

"mark we have to move on with this application, the ecm has reviewed your case and is satisfied the correct decision has been made and that the documents you have mentioned are not present" writes david matthews, case officer in reply to an email i sent yesterday,"you will have to re-submit"............."documents do not need translating as we have a team of translators here at the embassy".

looks like that all im going to get out of them.

Edited November 21, 2006 by markreed

[atlastaname]

This is a fascinating case. Seems like they have lost the docs between the VAC and the Embassy but won't admit it. However it does seem like they are saying apply again and she'll get it , which is extraordinary , but then we are talking the British Embassy so nothing is impossible. Even more interesting is them saying they don't need anything translated !! I mean this is news to us all!! GU22 , you ever heard of this ??

[markr]

Honestly mate!! thats exactly what it says, I got a reply back from uk visas too and they state they cannot intervien. basically she handed them in at the vac when she applied, she was then told she was required to have an interview,she returned to the vac and got her interview letter,que number etc and at this point was told she would need to provide these new up to date original bank statements and the original deeds to propertys, she then went to sattahip to obtain them from her bank/solicitor and then returned to the embassy on the 16th for her interview, they were then handed in along with some other emails and things we thought may help just before her interview as they requested.

She actually saw them on the desk while she was being interview, he did not refer to them at any point during the interview, only the the papers contained in her original file that was handed in at the vac.

The other thing that is really bugging me now i think about it is the middle aged thai woman she spoke to before her interview said, "i dont think i'll get my visa because i have lots of paperwork missing".....she did however leave with the visa she needed!!!!!!!

?????confused????yes i am ????

Edited November 21, 2006 by markreed

[Phil_ne_uk]

Mark, I would phone them again using GU22’s strategy as he wrote below!

They accepted that she had provided the necessary financial documents or else they would have got her to sign the standard declaration to say she knew some documents were missing. I would point this out to the ECM and that this means the documents must have been mislaid somewhere between the VAC and the visa section at the embassy.

Ask one more time if you can now produce these documents and if doing so means the decision will be overturned.

You have nothing to lose by trying this idea. Insist that they must have lost the documents! So it's only fair that they give you the chance to produce them again!

[markr]

Ok let me just confirm, if documents were missing at the time of application, the applicant will be asked to sign a declaration stating that they understand they are required to be but not present??

I will get on to this straight away. basically then if they did not get her to sign this,which they did not, then they HAVE GOT to allow us to submit them again

I have been contacted by ukvisas and they dont want to acknowledge the fact that the embassy are wrong and will not intervien, I have also contacted my local mp mr david cameron and his office replied immediately and are very willing to help!! there on the case

thanks folks, mark

[Phil_ne_uk]

Mark, As you said, david matthews stated

documents you have mentioned are not present

Phone mr matthews and ask if the documents not present was the only/main reason they refused the visa. If they confirm that was the reason for refusal, Tell them you can get your g/f to bring copies into the embassy. I don’t see how they can refuse this simple request even if they are Tw**s lol

If they wont allow this then bring up the fact that THEY must have lost them in the first place, otherwise as GU22 said she would have to have signed the declaration. As she didn’t sign any declaration, this must prove that the paperwork was in order at the time of submitting the application. If they wont admit that then ask why your g/f wasn’t asked to sign the declaration.

Don’t accept their decision if you are in the right!

[GU22]

Mark,

To clarify this declaration thing.

Item 6 on the social visit checklist says that, among other items, the applicant should provide

evidence of your assests in Thailand (savings/properties etc.)

Item 7 says that if the visit is being sponsored then the sponsor should provide evidence that s/he can afford to do so. Item 8 says that if the applicant is paying for the trip (note their typo!) then the applicant should provide evidence of their ability to do so.

At the bottom of all the VAC checklists it says

Full documents submitted Yes/No

If you choose not to provide some of the above mentioned documents you must sign the following declaration:

I have been advised to submit the above mentioned documents but I intend to submit my application without the documents crossed in this checklist. I understand that failure to provide these documents may result in the refusal of my application.

So, if she hadn't provided any documents to show her finances (or yours) then she would have been asked to sign this declaration.

Ask to see the checklist and any notes thereon.

Atlastaname, you asked

Even more interesting is them saying they don't need anything translated !! I mean this is news to us all!! GU22 , you ever heard of this ??

It is the first I have heard from an official source, but have heard many people say that they did not submit translations and did not have a problem. I still maintain, though, that it is better to submit translations if possible.

Phil, you asked

Have you ever considered, perhaps the reason one sees a lot of comments/opinions like mine as you say, is because they are true and justified, as in this instance.

Had you read the whole paragraph you would not have needed to ask this. What I actually wrote was

One sees a lot of comments on forums such as this like Phil's above, but usually on looking at the details of the application one can see that the refusal was justified

Obviously, as I went on to say, sometimes, like Mark's case, refusals are totally perplexing and/or perverse, but usually the 'fault' lies with the applicant or sponsor.

[markr]

I understand what you mean, we used this in preparing our application, but she was never asked to sign this or anything else!!

My mp's office has just called me, they say uk visas will do nothing, and thats about it! Even if the embassy lost these papers and are completely b***sh*****g me,whatever they say goes wether right or wrong, they win................ its pretty much hard cheese!!

They are not regulated, and its disgusting!!!!

mark

Come on chaps, must protect the queen at all cost's from the attact of the evil teeraks!!!!

Edited November 21, 2006 by markreed

[dog412]

I understand what you mean, we used this in preparing our application, but she was never asked to sign this or anything else!!

My mp's office has just called me, they say uk visas will do nothing, and thats about it! Even if the embassy lost these papers and are completely b***sh*****g me,whatever they say goes wether right or wrong, they win................ its pretty much hard cheese!!

They are not regulated, and its disgusting!!!!

mark

Come on chaps, must protect the queen at all cost's from the attact of the evil teeraks!!!!

no offence, maybe they figured you were not on the up and up. check your own "intentions" and ask why. no reason to blame a queen.

[markr]

No offence taken dog, however i find it hard to understand how you/they can figure wether or not i'm on the "up and up"? not quite sure what you mean by that? I dont need to check my intentions..... and as far as "a queen" goes, she is my queen and her name was used as a way of comically hinting at the mentality of the ECO's, not as a blame!

cheers , mark

[Phil_ne_uk]

she is my queen and her name was used as a way of comically hinting at the mentality of the ECO's, not as a blame!

well said Mark

Come on chaps, must protect the queen at all cost's from the attact of the evil teeraks!!!!

lol :D

[markr]

The embassy say they have given me enough of there time now, the case does not have the right of appeal and we have to apply again. Looks like thats what were going to have to do!

it was worth a try but it seems it was never going to get us anywhere, i really do feel sorry for people that have had things overlooked or incorrect decisions made against them like i believe we have.

I suppose i can complain all I like but, the ECOs are only human and shit happens!!

never mind! we are now more determined and looking forward to the next exciting episode!!!

[atlastaname]

And I for one can't wait to hear the next episode

Quote Mark "..whatever they say goes right or wrong , they win...." yes in your case and no doubt others thats true. That is the system we have . If you want to be a part in changing it the only way is to find the time to lobby your MP , complain to UK Visas , and continue to complain (AFTER she has got her visa!!) to the BE in Bangkok. Almost certainly nothing will change but you will cause them loads of work , which personally i find is some small comfort.

I'll stay tuned .........

[GU22]

I, too, wouldn't let this drop. Not because I want to create lots of work for the Bangkok visa section (how will that help anyone?), but because it is wrong. Someone has f*cked up somewhere, and this needs to be put right.

Mark, even though you now seem resigned to making a new application, I would urge you to make a formal compliant about this. Your girlfriend was refused not because she didn't meet the requirements of the rules, but because someone somewhere lost her documents.

Your first step should be to write a formal letter of complaint to UK Visas (see here) with a copy to your MP, detailing as you have here exactly what happened from the moment she submitted the application to the VAC.

[atlastaname]

GU22 , MP's and UK Visas and especially the nice peole at the BE don't like themselves to be inconvenienced by sponcers making a fuss and causing them to have to do more paperwork. It may eventually , if enough people pushed it to the limit, make them re-consider not because they feel for the injustices , but because they don't like having to do ever more paperwork . So thats how it would help. Its just common sense really. And in any case , i never said it helped, just that it causes more work and that is small comfort to me personally. So i hope that has cleared up that for you.

As for your advice to Mark to furthur kick up, i don't really think that would help. The guy has already done more than most would , he has contacted UK Visas who won't help, the BE in Bangkok who won't re-consider , and even his MP who has tried to get UK Visas to move and the reply is in the negative. That is a lot of kicking up and he still is nowhere furthur forward. He is at the end of the road with this one and rather waste more time getting them to admit they were wrong, why not just re-apply with the documents again and it seems they will issue it this time .

[GU22]

A slight misunderstanding.

I am saying that I think Mark should make a formal complaint as well as reapplying, not instead of.

[atlastaname]

A slight misunderstanding.

I am saying that I think Mark should make a formal complaint as well as reapplying, not instead of.

No i did understand you the first time . I think he should be careful in doing this . It seems that they are telling him (unusual i think) if she applies again with docs she WILL be issued her visa. Thats a good situation and i think he should do it pronto. To make a formal complaint just could be a bit risky. No-one likes complaints being made about them , and if he kicked up a big stink just as she was re-applying its not beyond belief that it may make the staff at the BE a little prejudiced towards her. It may not , but as it is possible , why take that chance? I am convinced and so was my lawyer , that it was because of the big fuss i made over my partners refusal , that the appleal papers were put at the bottom of the pile on a daily basis. As they behaved that way to me its quite possible that they could do the same to Mark , especially as some of the faces involved with me are still there.

Mark , you have already correctly come to the conclusion that they can behave how they like , why take the chance? They are offering you the visa it would seem from your posts, so grab it quickly. Once she is safely in the UK you could consider making as much fuss as you like , but even then be aware that it will go on the record and just could be used against her (unofficially of course!!)in the future. I'm the first one to complain believe me , but in my case it harmed our application. So think hard first.

[Phil_ne_uk]

bad luck Mark. It just goes to show what a bunch of unfair and unreasonable TW**s they are!

[GU22]

Atalstaname, I can see your point, and maybe Mark should simply re-apply, and maybe complain later.

Unlike some, I believe that the ECOs are fair, and do their, not easy, job to the best of their abilities. I do not believe them to be petty and vindictive. As I said before, when one is in possession of all the facts one can see that in the vast majority of cases the fault for a refusal lies with the applicant or sponsor; either they simply didn't meet the requirements of the rules or did, but failed to show that they did. Sometimes applicants don't meet the necessary requirements, know they don't and so lie and are then caught in that lie.

However, like all of us, ECOs can make mistakes and when they do they will try to cover their @rses. From what Mark has been told by them, it seems that this is the case here.

[markr]

I do love a good whinge, however i dont think it will help before we get to the holy grail. I think I have just got to keep my mouth shut and hope the next application goes as they say it should and kick off when she's safe in blighty!!

mark

[Mahout Angrit]

I do love a good whinge, however i dont think it will help before we get to the holy grail. I think I have just got to keep my mouth shut and hope the next application goes as they say it should and kick off when she's safe in blighty!!

mark

Good thinking, no amount of moaning or stirring will help you get your Visa any sooner, neither will it prevent it happening to someone else, nor will it improve the sytem. At best it could well leave you a marked man and cause you to be flagged to cause you problems in the future. Best to leave it. Wish you good luck with the next application.

[Phil_ne_uk]

Unlike some, I believe that the ECOs are fair, and do their, not easy, job to the best of their abilities. I do not believe them to be petty and vindictive.

I disagree. I believe as well as many others on this forum that they enjoy their power and forget that their job is to consider issuing visas, not looking for excuses to refuse them which they often do. Marks case is an example, as you wrote below.

However, like all of us, ECOs can make mistakes and when they do they will try to cover their @rses. From what Mark has been told by them, it seems that this is the case here.

They should remember that if it wasn’t for the likes of us guys, they wouldn’t even have their job here in Thailand!

Sometimes applicants don't meet the necessary requirements, know they don't and so lie and are then caught in that lie.

Sometimes it’s necessary to make small lies. (as long as you can definitely cover your @rse) As in my g/f’s case 2 years ago. Had we told them that we had only been together in Thailand for only 6 days they would certainly have decided that 6 days wasn’t long enough to be considered a “genuine” relationship and refused the vv on that basis. We said we had been together 2 weeks (which they never found to be untrue) but still refused her first application as they didn’t think 2 weeks was long enough. They didn’t state that they refused for that reason, just other petty reasons, or rather excuses which was obvious as when she re-applied 3 months later, she got the vv and the only difference in her circumstances was the time we had known each other. Which proves that their reasons for the first refusal were unjust. Or in simple terms one could say they were just nasty, petty and vindictive awkward C***s

Good thinking, no amount of moaning or stirring will help you get your Visa any sooner, neither will it prevent it happening to someone else, nor will it improve the sytem. At best it could well leave you a marked man and cause you to be flagged to cause you problems in the future. Best to leave it.

Not always. Sometimes one has to complain or these eco’s think they can do what they like. My g/f’s second application was accompanied by a letter from my MP. I’ll never know if the letter helped her get the vv. But it certainly didn’t do any harm as she got it!

[atlastaname]

I think we have all pretty much agreed on Marks strategy now , and he has too!! So thats that settled and i'm sure he will keep us informed as the next application is made. Mark take heart from a recent post from Zink who showed how it is possible to re-apply almost immediately and be granted the visa in astonishingly quick time. So it can be done.

Like Phil and i suspect Mark also, i disagree with Mahout when he says along the lines of ...well its happened , forget it and move on you can't change anything.... I guess women would never have got the vote if that attitude was adopted . On a frivolous note i personally enjoy making work for them because they made work for me . Childish maybe ..but it IS satisfying to rock the boat. On a serious note, only by protest and by enough people doing it will change happen. It certainly can happen . How long do you think the system can last before breakdown if every MP had his every surgery packed with about 5 immigration protesters (and 5 is enough to pack a surgery) complaining about the attitudes of the Embassy staff and the inadequacies of the system in terms of redress? Swamp the MP's and UK Visas and you would soon see change. Unfortunately most people are either too lazy or lack the motivation to complain because it does of course require some considerable effort.

Its such a complex issue this and is getting off topic although i doubt Mark would mind that as he seems keen to learn. But i think if its to be discussed in length then a separate thread should be opened .

[markr]

I completely agree with you! things will never change unless the likes of us do some shouting. unfortunatley, and without sounding like i have my head stuck up my arse, We generally as sponsors/partners have to speak up because the people that apply for these visas i.e my gf, although well educated,she does'nt posses the skills to have a debate with the likes of the embassy on why they did not get there visa or what to do if they think they have been wronged.

Im not trying to say ther'e thick so please dont think i'm trying to put them down, I mean there are all sorts of things, language barriers etc that simply mean its going to be very difficult for the likes of a thai girl/boy to complain to OUR embassy!

I for one will not let something lie, I work in consumer based profession and my if customers want to shout about something they do, and eventually they get there way, this is the same with everything, if enough people make noise, then things WILL change!!!

Mark

Edited November 24, 2006 by markreed

[Phil_ne_uk]

Atlastaname, regarding your post as below. I have just one thing to say,,,,

BL**DY WELL SAID!! I couldn’t agree more! Particularly the points I’ve highlighted in bold

Like Phil and i suspect Mark also, i disagree with Mahout when he says along the lines of ...well its happened , forget it and move on you can't change anything.... I guess women would never have got the vote if that attitude was adopted . On a frivolous note i personally enjoy making work for them because they made work for me . Childish maybe ..but it IS satisfying to rock the boat. On a serious note, only by protest and by enough people doing it will change happen. It certainly can happen . How long do you think the system can last before breakdown if every MP had his every surgery packed with about 5 immigration protesters (and 5 is enough to pack a surgery) complaining about the attitudes of the Embassy staff and the inadequacies of the system in terms of redress? Swamp the MP's and UK Visas and you would soon see change. Unfortunately most people are either too lazy or lack the motivation to complain because it does of course require some considerable effort.

Off topic a bit but Solvit (part of The European Commission) are presently working on my case regarding the refusal my g/f’s family permit for Spain.

This link could be useful for any EU citizens who have problems with any EU countries who are not fulfilling their EU laws obligations.

[coldcrush]

Sorry to hear your refusal mate. I would do as people would surely advise and fight against the decision.

Goodluck

Edited November 24, 2006 by lopburiguy

[GU22]

If the service is bad, or the staff are rude, or they are not doing their job correctly then one should complain. Atlastaname is quite correct, if people don't complain then nothing will change.

However, there is one very good reason why MP's surgeries are not already overflowing with people complaining about the way they or their loved ones have been treated by ECOs at the many UK embassies around the world. It is not because people are too lazy to complain; it's because they have nothing to complain about. For the vast majority of visa applicants the whole process is swift, successful and, apart from the cost, painless.

Phil, I still would like to know why you are continuing to bang your head against a wall in a fruitless attempt to get the Spanish government to change their immigration rules regarding unmarried couples. As discussed at great length elsewhere, they are not breaking any EU rules provided they are treating you the same as they would a Spanish citizen in this regard.

You've lived with her (you say) for over 2 years. You want to live in Spain with her. Marrying her means (provided you can support and accommodate yourselves in Spain) that she would get her family permit within a matter of days.

You made reference earlier to her first unsuccessful UK application and her subsequent successful one. The first was refused because you hadn't known each other long enough for the ECO to believe the relationship was genuine ( she may also have been caught lying). Solution, get to know her for longer and voilà; visa issued.

Moral; look at the reasons for the refusal and do something about them.

The Spanish wont issue her a family permit because she is not married to you. Solution; marry her. Why wont you take this simple and easy route?

[markr]

GU22, I believe part of the reason people dont complain is because alot of the time they do not understand or even know that they have been fobbed off by the enbassies!

You and others in this forum are well educated in these matters and by looking, even for a few seconds at a refusal letter, you would understand what was meant and you would also know if what they were saying was correct or not. Fortunately for myself I've had a lot of help, but im sure a lot of other folks that have applied for visas have not had the aid of such and informative forum such as TV and have taken the embassies decision a correct, even if it had not been!

What im trying to say is, if you dont know how to spot the fact that you have been wronged, then you would never know about, and therefore not able to complain about anything.

For example, I sell cars for a living and if I wanted to "lift your leg" so to speak, then I could and you would never know(not that i would do such a thing!!!)unless you were clued up on the matter.I know this is not the same but I think the same sort of thing happens with visas.

I highlight the word could because the embassy can, if they want, confuse an unsuspecting visa applicant with any old blarne they want and there none the wiser.

Mark

Edited November 24, 2006 by markreed

[Phil_ne_uk]

Phil, I still would like to know why you are continuing to bang your head against a wall in a fruitless attempt to get the Spanish government to change their immigration rules regarding unmarried couples. As discussed at great length elsewhere, they are not breaking any EU rules provided they are treating you the same as they would a Spanish citizen in this regard.

GU22

Sorry but you are wrong. Even if they recognize cohabiting couples as akin to marriage, as the directive clearly states,

“In those cases where there is no direct obligation to recognise, member states must facilitate entry and residence of partners in a durable relationship”

Solvit agree and certainly wouldn’t waste their time if there was no case!

The problem is that they won’t acknowledge or state what they class as a durable relationship. That’s what Solvit are looking into.

You made reference earlier to her first unsuccessful UK application and her subsequent successful one. The first was refused because you hadn't known each other long enough for the ECO to believe the relationship was genuine ( she may also have been caught lying).

So the Wa**er was wrong wasn’t he! Why should they decide what length of time is long enough to be considered a genuine relationship? Also she was NOT found out about the small lie about how long we had known each other.

Solution, get to know her for longer and voilà; visa issued.

Moral; look at the reasons for the refusal and do something about them.

It’s up to the two people as to how they feel! It shouldn’t be what some young jumped up power freak decides what HE thinks is genuine!

The Spanish wont issue her a family permit because she is not married to you. Solution; marry her. Why wont you take this simple and easy route?

Okay you keep asking so without going into lengthy detail. Basically it’s because neither of us are divorced as yet. Apart from that I don’t really want to marry for the reason of obtaining a visa. Been there done that, years ago. People shouldn’t have to marry for the sake of a visa even though sometimes it’s the easiest or only way.

[Phil_ne_uk]

What im trying to say is, if you dont know how to spot the fact that you have been wronged, then you would never know about, and therefore not able to complain about anything.

For example, I sell cars for a living and if I wanted to "lift your leg" so to speak, then I could and you would never know(not that i would do such a thing!!!)unless you were clued up on the matter.I know this is not the same but I think the same sort of thing happens with visas.

I highlight the word could because the embassy can, if they want, confuse an unsuspecting visa applicant with any old blarne they want and there none the wiser.

Well thought out and well said Mark!