Germany rape law: Will 'no mean no'?

[manarak]

What the proposed law in Germany means is to make sure that women's wishes are respected. The "nos" that you describe are something completely different.

As far as the "danger" you are referring to, even under the present law, there is nothing to prevent a woman reporting to the police a "rape" in the form prescribed by the present law. Here we are referring to decent women who are facing men who are not prepare to take no for an answer, Such "machos" should be punishable by law.

As far as I understand, the new law intends to remove all nuance of interpretation. No would mean no and that's it. The mere use of the word then implies rape, regardless of the context. The law certainly does need to take account of the context, and that's why a rigid 'no means no' rule is stupid. I don't think they could formulate a law that says 'no means no when it is said in a certain way'.

There has to be another way for the law to make the distinction. I don't see any problem with the 'free to walk away' principle.

The law will not use the words "no means no ". The law will probably say "against the victim's noticeable will" (my personal translation, probably not an accurate British English law translation, but I guess, you get the idea).

Still room for interpretation but better than the old version, which required the victim's physical resistance (otherwise the crime would not have qualified as rape).

Not sure if this is really a good thing, it opens the door to abuse of the law and fake testimonies.

I hope the "noticable will" will still have to be proven by evidence.

[thaibeachlovers]

What the proposed law in Germany means is to make sure that women's wishes are respected. The "nos" that you describe are something completely different.

As far as the "danger" you are referring to, even under the present law, there is nothing to prevent a woman reporting to the police a "rape" in the form prescribed by the present law. Here we are referring to decent women who are facing men who are not prepare to take no for an answer, Such "machos" should be punishable by law.

As far as I understand, the new law intends to remove all nuance of interpretation. No would mean no and that's it. The mere use of the word then implies rape, regardless of the context. The law certainly does need to take account of the context, and that's why a rigid 'no means no' rule is stupid. I don't think they could formulate a law that says 'no means no when it is said in a certain way'.

There has to be another way for the law to make the distinction. I don't see any problem with the 'free to walk away' principle.

Why would a woman have to walk away if it was HER bedroom?

Anyway, I have always considered no to mean no, whatever stupid games they play. It's just not worth the risk. The deck has long been stacked against the man in the west.

Ever since I discovered LOS I have never even considered succumbing to a western woman's stupid games, and while having many female friends that is all they ever were.

[thaibeachlovers]

@ddavidovsky what's so hard about stopping when someone says no during sex? Did it kill you both when you went back to your bed the first time? Did the sky fall? No. She clarified her wishes and you got it on and by your account it seemed to go pretty well. What's the problem? If someone says no and they actually mean yes then stopping during the act will actually teach them that they should be using other tactics, language, and communication. For the life of me I don't see how this is such a big complicated thing. If someone says no and you feel like you can interpret that however you wish - despite the fact that you've had previous experience with other women - it's a dangerous thing. Everyone is different. It's not a big deal to stop and get clarity - a simple "hey do you actually want me to stop?". You're being a drama queen.

Just to add another real life case study: there was another occasion when a girl stopped over at my place (it was in Singapore, but she was from mainland China) saying at the beginning of the evening "no sex, okay?" Well, I'm sure most guys would take that with a pinch of salt, but I'm an easy-going chap so I took her literally, assuming that mainly she just wanted some company. The next day it was clear that she was deeply offended - she froze me out and wouldn't go out with me again. And there you have it. What women say and what they mean are quite different things. I hope that answers your question.

One has to use subtle judgement in navigating human nature, of course. I just fear that the law - not being there in the room at the time - is incapable of understanding the subtleties.

I long ago reached the conclusion that men are incapable of understanding women ( and visa versa ). The only guaranteed way to be sure is after agreeing the price before the act, whatever that price may be ( a diamond ring is often the price ).

[SoiBiker]

Understanding women is easy. They're just people, not some exotic alien species.

Pretending otherwise is just a refuge sought by the emotionally underdeveloped.

[thaibeachlovers]

Understanding women is easy. They're just people, not some exotic alien species.

Pretending otherwise is just a refuge sought by the emotionally underdeveloped.

John Grey and the millions that bought the book disagree with you.

[SoiBiker]

Understanding women is easy. They're just people, not some exotic alien species.

Pretending otherwise is just a refuge sought by the emotionally underdeveloped.

John Grey and the millions that bought the book disagree with you.

I'm aware that there are a lot of people who share your problems, yes.

[oxo1947]

There were actually 12 that molested her......she shouted out Nien ! Nien !

..........but only 3 left.....................

Edited July 9, 2016 by oxo1947

[thaibeachlovers]

Understanding women is easy. They're just people, not some exotic alien species.

Pretending otherwise is just a refuge sought by the emotionally underdeveloped.

John Grey and the millions that bought the book disagree with you.

I'm aware that there are a lot of people who share your problems, yes.

You know nothing at all about me and are verging on flaming.

[SoiBiker]

Understanding women is easy. They're just people, not some exotic alien species.

Pretending otherwise is just a refuge sought by the emotionally underdeveloped.

John Grey and the millions that bought the book disagree with you.

I'm aware that there are a lot of people who share your problems, yes.

You know nothing at all about me and are verging on flaming.

You're incapable of understanding women - I know this because you stated as much yourself just up the page there.

[manarak]

There were actually 12 that molested her......she shouted out Nien ! Nien !

..........but only 3 left.....................

lol

"nien nien" is actually very funny taken in a Thai context....

P.S.

"Nein" means no in German

[abrahamzvi]

They would still be behind the Swedes...where if you complement a woman on her physical appearance it's considered rape.

Hear this on Fox or something? Or maybe Mr. Facts (aka your avatar Trump said it, so must be true?). Here is a link to Swedish Penal Code. Take a look at section 6. http://www.government.se/contentassets/5315d27076c942019828d6c36521696e/swedish-penal-code.pdf

Typical "Macho". Some men think they can state whatever they think fit and people who want to, believe them and....

[Saradoc1972]

Some questions, why now? Has rape always been a problematic gray area in Germany, or has a problem arisen recently? If so why?

Just some problematic fringe cases in the past, been in the pipe for some time. For rape or sexual molestation an element of violence or lack of consent overcome is constituent obviously enough.

So the question is: "what constitutes violence, when is consent lacking?". Does the victim need to put up physical resistance, possibly when fearing for her life in some circumstances? How will it be proven she did?

Will it be sufficient if the victim fears imminent violence and did not speak up because of that, there having been a climate of violence in a family setting, or there being an enormous potential for that when surrounded by 3 or more shady looking Arabs, even when there are no actual voiced threats? How much of a "no" do you need? Will squirming and whimpering suffice? Looking unwilling, lacking even that?

It's a really difficult legal topic because obviously sex happens every day and at that is only a criminal offense if there is no consent, which will be the first thing a potential defendant will claim there had been.

On the other hand that sort of legislation has been used as a weapon of sorts by some not-so-much-a-victim females, and.... sordid topic, bit of a mine-field really.

There is an editorial in Zeit newspaper where German federal judge Thomas Fischer takes the incumbent new sections more or less apart. He is president of the 2nd senate of criminal court, so he is actually going to rule on some of those cases in the near future, he's not fond of it and being deeply sarcastic. The proposed new section is printed down there, still, DO NOT click on that link and try reading that, DON'T GO THERE, IT'S NO USE!!! Even if your German is close to native, you're going to eat your own keyboard trying. I used to be a fully-fledged German atty-at-law, and reading that I can't help thinking to myself something along the lines of "now they've gone bonkers". Unintelligible, no other word for it.

They've got it all wrong, if you ask me. Little Heiko from the Social-Democrats and his sycophants that is, our small-grown Secretary of Justice. While the proposed changes might, at times, in some instances, make things easier for police, the main problem will still be identifying perpetrators and proving things, and then there is still adequate sentencing and putting perpetrators on probation when there is no reasonable hope that is going to deter them from committing crimes in the future. The laws in Germany would be sufficient as things are if there were adequate sentencing guidelines (i.e. Strafzumessungsrecht) or leave to apply the law as a given case commands.

[thaibeachlovers]

You know nothing at all about me and are verging on flaming.

You're incapable of understanding women - I know this because you stated as much yourself just up the page there.

Nor understanding women is no more a problem than the tide going in and out.

Just a fact of life.

However, if you think you understand them it's worth 3 . Unless of course you are a woman.