Charter voting registration ends today; only one percent signs up

[MZurf]

"My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive."

Actually, your observation is wrong. What I and many other TVF posters (correct me if I'm wrong) are for is a return to democracy, where there are checks and balances in place that can oust a government without resorting to weapons.

Yes, the democracy the military (yet again) overthrew was a seriously flawed one, but a whole lot better than having a bunch of unelected dinosaurs who's main concern is making sure they never again are denied access to the trough. Remember how they promised to root out corruption, nepotism and to treat everyone equally? How is that going??

"No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy."

So are you saying that the present junta are structurally improving the situation and building a real democracy?? And just how are they doing this?

Please list their achievements so far. Come on now, it shouldn't take you long!

"......where there are checks and balances in place that can oust a government without resorting to weapons."

And in the interest of true democracy, those checks and balances had their funding reduced by 60%. Oh and let's have an amnesty that covers the government in case a 60% reduction isn't enough. Of course, the ""without weapons" doesn't include "government supporters" who feel they have the right to kill protesters, and a few kiddies as collateral damage.

Tell us again about your lack of bias, I need a another good laugh.

" Oh and let's have an amnesty that covers the government in case a 60% reduction isn't enough. "

Are you still bleating on about the attempted amnesty of the YL government, or are you finally owning up to the shameful amnesty the junta gave itself?

" Tell us again about your lack of bias, I need a another good laugh."

You misunderstand (yet again). I'm totally biased for elected governments and against juntas.

So you don't want to discuss the 60% reduction in the "checks and balances in place that can oust a government without resorting to weapons."?

Or why a government that has obeyed the law requires an amnesty? Do you know of any other democratic governments that have tried to pass themselves an amnesty?

Do you genuinely want to discuss the budget cut in the ineffective anti-corruption office, or are you just grasping at straws?

Do you want to discuss an amnesty considered and rejected, in accordance with the constitution written for the military after their 2006 coup, and compare it with the amnesty the military could only grant itself after overthrowing the government and suspending the constitution?

Will you finally explain to us why you think this corrupt military which is guilty of far worse crimes than the Shinawatra's, and can not be removed without bloodshed, is better than the government that could be removed with an election? Can you explain why, after all the coups, all the military governments, and all the constitutions since 1932, you think this time military rule will lead to wonderful democracy that meets your standards from day one?

" Can you explain why, after all the coups, all the military governments, and all the constitutions since 1932, you think this time military rule will lead to wonderful democracy that meets your standards from day one?"

Now, that's the question all the junta supporters run away from like Dracula from sunlight. NONE of them are able to answer it.

[rubl]

The truth is that you state your opinion, as non-involved foreigner.

Now we know that in 2007 and 1997 the number of people reading the draft constitution was in the very low numbers. Most just voted as told, for or against. Why would that be different now?

The Thai version of the draft charter has been available since end of March. That's more than three months ago. We had posters suggesting to be against, no need to read, and now complaints of 'where is it', 'we have no time to read'. Last will be the 'it doesn't matter'.

Consistency? Yes, in the negative waves, Moriarty.

Where do you get this "non-involved" description?

At the least, many of us posting here are involved, not as citizens, but as people with strong ties and commitments to Thailand. As for myself, I have a definite personal interest in the outcome of the Charter vote and the course of the country.

I think I am very much entitled to an opinion, as is everybody else here.

I agree people here are negative about the Junta, the referendum, and the Charter. There are good reasons for that, and there are some posters who combine that with negative opinions in general. This isn't new.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 Eye using Tapatalk

So you stated your opinion as involved foreigner. Fine, no problem. The only problem was in your "The truth is ...".

My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive. No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy. Only the usual 'let's have a vote' as if that works when people don't even seem aware of a referendum while all foreigners know such.

"My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive."

Actually, your observation is wrong. What I and many other TVF posters (correct me if I'm wrong) are for is a return to democracy, where there are checks and balances in place that can oust a government without resorting to weapons.

Yes, the democracy the military (yet again) overthrew was a seriously flawed one, but a whole lot better than having a bunch of unelected dinosaurs who's main concern is making sure they never again are denied access to the trough. Remember how they promised to root out corruption, nepotism and to treat everyone equally? How is that going??

"No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy."

So are you saying that the present junta are structurally improving the situation and building a real democracy?? And just how are they doing this?

Please list their achievements so far. Come on now, it shouldn't take you long!

My observation is my observation, but nice you say "it's wrong".

Anyway, a return to the situation before as frequently stated by some would be a return to a pseudo democracy with amongst others a criminal fugitive controlling the country via his clone. Hardly democratic.

So, charter voting. I vaguely remember having been told many times the Thai population demands a referendum on the charter. For more than a year actually. Now 'the Thai voters' complain about 'we didn't know', 'we didn't get', 'even our farang didn't tell us', etc., etc. Interesting.

[rubl]

The truth is that you state your opinion, as non-involved foreigner.

Now we know that in 2007 and 1997 the number of people reading the draft constitution was in the very low numbers. Most just voted as told, for or against. Why would that be different now?

The Thai version of the draft charter has been available since end of March. That's more than three months ago. We had posters suggesting to be against, no need to read, and now complaints of 'where is it', 'we have no time to read'. Last will be the 'it doesn't matter'.

Consistency? Yes, in the negative waves, Moriarty.

Where do you get this "non-involved" description?

At the least, many of us posting here are involved, not as citizens, but as people with strong ties and commitments to Thailand. As for myself, I have a definite personal interest in the outcome of the Charter vote and the course of the country.

I think I am very much entitled to an opinion, as is everybody else here.

I agree people here are negative about the Junta, the referendum, and the Charter. There are good reasons for that, and there are some posters who combine that with negative opinions in general. This isn't new.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 Eye using Tapatalk

So you stated your opinion as involved foreigner. Fine, no problem. The only problem was in your "The truth is ...".

My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive. No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy. Only the usual 'let's have a vote' as if that works when people don't even seem aware of a referendum while all foreigners know such.

"My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive."

I knew you'd bring it up. But, but, but....Thaksin!

rubl's view--"remote control by a criminal fugitive" is unacceptable, even though it was promised in the 2011 election campaign and is what the voters wanted, even though it was legal under the constitution written for the military after their last coup, even though the government was attempting to hold an election to let the voters change their minds.

Heavy handed, human rights trampling control by a military guilty of crimes far worse than Thaksin is fine. The fact that the junta can't be removed without bloodshed, no problem. The fact that it's been tried many times since the 1932 coup without leading to democracy and a military that stays out of politics, not a concern. Who knows, maybe it will be twentieth time lucky. http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21693251-some-generals-come-up-new-plan-saving-thailand-democracy-twentieth-time-lucky

Too bad so few people agree with you.

If that's what some voters wanted than those voters didn't want a democracy. You defend them. Therefore you defend a pseudo democracy or actually you defend Thaksin interfering remotely.

Too bad, but then no real surprise.

I'm more for defending the dregs of Thai society, the downtrodden masses, the poor. They should ignore all those local elite bosses (and a few remote ones). The grassroot organisations were happy as some of their 'betters' seemed to embrace their cause and were utterly deceived. Self-reliance? Education?

Even now after more than a year most Thai still don't know there will be a referendum and lots who know complain they didn't get the draft charter or have had no time to read it. Like I wrote in 2014 a massive engagement would have overwhelmed the junta / current government to the point of making it simply impossible to ignore the people without grave consequences. Instead we had political and Thaksin games as usual. IMHO of course, altruisticly.

[MW72]

Does anyone on this thread think that Halloween or Rubl actually have any experience of working with the military whether in there own country or another country? I can tell you that I have had plenty. From privates right up to Major Generals and I can tell you that I have met very few who would be competent enough to run a privete company let alone a country. I guess they are the types who fall for the type of propoganda you get in the UK and probably most other countries that tells them that the military is the best. Believe me... they are far from the best and should never be allowed to make decisions that affect nations.

Edited July 11, 2016 by MW72

[baboon]

Does anyone on this thread think that Halloween or Rubl actually have any experience of working with the military whether in there own country or another country? I can tell you that I have had plenty. From privates right up to Major Generals and I can tell you that I have met very few who would be competent enough to run a privete company let alone a country. I guess they are the types who fall for the type of propoganda you get in the UK and probably most other countries that tells them that the military is the best. Believe me... they are far from the best and should never be allowed to make decisions that affect nations.

...Or part of the propaganda machine. You decide. You know when you listen to a commercial promising that 'Maybe you too could win up to £1000 if you get lucky'?

In other words, there is a chance there is a chance you might win anything from 2P up to £1000, or more likely nothing.

Take time to read closely what is written and what might actually be meant, despite appearances to the contrary. Please do the same with my posts too, then form your own opinion.

[heybruce]

Where do you get this "non-involved" description?

At the least, many of us posting here are involved, not as citizens, but as people with strong ties and commitments to Thailand. As for myself, I have a definite personal interest in the outcome of the Charter vote and the course of the country.

I think I am very much entitled to an opinion, as is everybody else here.

I agree people here are negative about the Junta, the referendum, and the Charter. There are good reasons for that, and there are some posters who combine that with negative opinions in general. This isn't new.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 Eye using Tapatalk

So you stated your opinion as involved foreigner. Fine, no problem. The only problem was in your "The truth is ...".

My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive. No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy. Only the usual 'let's have a vote' as if that works when people don't even seem aware of a referendum while all foreigners know such.

"My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive."

I knew you'd bring it up. But, but, but....Thaksin!

rubl's view--"remote control by a criminal fugitive" is unacceptable, even though it was promised in the 2011 election campaign and is what the voters wanted, even though it was legal under the constitution written for the military after their last coup, even though the government was attempting to hold an election to let the voters change their minds.

Heavy handed, human rights trampling control by a military guilty of crimes far worse than Thaksin is fine. The fact that the junta can't be removed without bloodshed, no problem. The fact that it's been tried many times since the 1932 coup without leading to democracy and a military that stays out of politics, not a concern. Who knows, maybe it will be twentieth time lucky. http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21693251-some-generals-come-up-new-plan-saving-thailand-democracy-twentieth-time-lucky

Too bad so few people agree with you.

If that's what some voters wanted than those voters didn't want a democracy. You defend them. Therefore you defend a pseudo democracy or actually you defend Thaksin interfering remotely.

Too bad, but then no real surprise.

I'm more for defending the dregs of Thai society, the downtrodden masses, the poor. They should ignore all those local elite bosses (and a few remote ones). The grassroot organisations were happy as some of their 'betters' seemed to embrace their cause and were utterly deceived. Self-reliance? Education?

Even now after more than a year most Thai still don't know there will be a referendum and lots who know complain they didn't get the draft charter or have had no time to read it. Like I wrote in 2014 a massive engagement would have overwhelmed the junta / current government to the point of making it simply impossible to ignore the people without grave consequences. Instead we had political and Thaksin games as usual. IMHO of course, altruisticly.

"If that's what some voters wanted than those voters didn't want a democracy."

Your detachment for reality is amusing. Now you are redefining democracy into...what? The Thai people were given a choice and they made their choice. If you don't like it, tough.

"You defend them."

As best I can, while you cheer on those who disenfranchise them.

"Therefore you defend a pseudo democracy or actually you defend Thaksin interfering remotely."

I defend the Thai people's choice, you maintain they aren't entitled to a choice.

"I'm more for defending the dregs of Thai society, the downtrodden masses, the poor."

Hilarious! Name a few of these people you defend, the one's who are close personal friends.

You are defending the traditional system in which the Thai government served Bangkok and the elites and ignored the rest of the country. All Thaksin had to do to become unstoppable in elections was shift government investment from 90% for Bangkok, 10% for the rest of the country, to 72% for Bangkok and 28% for the rest of the country. That was enough to build schools, clinics, roads, bridges, etc., to enable the poor to see their children get immunizations, finish school, and sometimes go to university. That's what Thaksin did for the "dregs of Thai society". What have you done?

Here's something that is too often ignored, Thaksin didn't do anything that the government's before him couldn't have done. The military governments and weak democracies before Thaksin could have provided the north and northeast, where the majority of the Thai people live, with basic infrastructure and services. They could have prevented the rise of Thaksin by serving all of Thailand, not just themselves and their cronies. The were too greedy and stupid to do this. These are the people you defend. They created the circumstances for Thaksin, and they forever forfeited their right to govern.

"Even now after more than a year most Thai still don't know there will be a referendum and lots who know complain they didn't get the draft charter or have had no time to read it."

And in spite of the military's heavy-handed censorship of discussion about the referendum, you blame the people, not the junta, for this failure of communication.

"Like I wrote in 2014 a massive engagement would have overwhelmed the junta / current government to the point of making it simply impossible to ignore the people without grave consequences."

Yes, you made it very clear you thought the people should trust and cooperate with the junta that overthrew their elected government. It was a ridiculous idea then and it's still a ridiculous idea. The military has had no trouble ignoring inputs they don't like, just as they had no trouble ignoring a democratically elected government.

As always, you ignore the corruption of the military, its history of coups, juntas, constitutions written and constitutions suspended, with no progress towards democracy. You are blind to the evil you support because you are too busy ranting "But, but, but....Thaksin!"

[MZurf]

Where do you get this "non-involved" description?

At the least, many of us posting here are involved, not as citizens, but as people with strong ties and commitments to Thailand. As for myself, I have a definite personal interest in the outcome of the Charter vote and the course of the country.

I think I am very much entitled to an opinion, as is everybody else here.

I agree people here are negative about the Junta, the referendum, and the Charter. There are good reasons for that, and there are some posters who combine that with negative opinions in general. This isn't new.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 Eye using Tapatalk

So you stated your opinion as involved foreigner. Fine, no problem. The only problem was in your "The truth is ...".

My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive. No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy. Only the usual 'let's have a vote' as if that works when people don't even seem aware of a referendum while all foreigners know such.

"My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive."

Actually, your observation is wrong. What I and many other TVF posters (correct me if I'm wrong) are for is a return to democracy, where there are checks and balances in place that can oust a government without resorting to weapons.

Yes, the democracy the military (yet again) overthrew was a seriously flawed one, but a whole lot better than having a bunch of unelected dinosaurs who's main concern is making sure they never again are denied access to the trough. Remember how they promised to root out corruption, nepotism and to treat everyone equally? How is that going??

"No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy."

So are you saying that the present junta are structurally improving the situation and building a real democracy?? And just how are they doing this?

Please list their achievements so far. Come on now, it shouldn't take you long!

My observation is my observation, but nice you say "it's wrong".

Anyway, a return to the situation before as frequently stated by some would be a return to a pseudo democracy with amongst others a criminal fugitive controlling the country via his clone. Hardly democratic.

So, charter voting. I vaguely remember having been told many times the Thai population demands a referendum on the charter. For more than a year actually. Now 'the Thai voters' complain about 'we didn't know', 'we didn't get', 'even our farang didn't tell us', etc., etc. Interesting.

"Anyway, a return to the situation before as frequently stated by some would be a return to a pseudo democracy with amongst others a criminal fugitive controlling the country via his clone. Hardly democratic."

It's what a majority of the electorate voted for - deal with it!

"So, charter voting. I vaguely remember having been told many times the Thai population demands a referendum on the charter. For more than a year actually. Now 'the Thai voters' complain about 'we didn't know', 'we didn't get', 'even our farang didn't tell us', etc., etc. Interesting."

Not interesting, it's sad. Sad how the junta has stifled all public debate and how the population very well understands that the junta plans to retain power whether they vote yes or no. What's also sad is that there are foreigners who actually believe the junta's claims that they are doing this for the good of the country, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[rubl]

Does anyone on this thread think that Halloween or Rubl actually have any experience of working with the military whether in there own country or another country? I can tell you that I have had plenty. From privates right up to Major Generals and I can tell you that I have met very few who would be competent enough to run a privete company let alone a country. I guess they are the types who fall for the type of propoganda you get in the UK and probably most other countries that tells them that the military is the best. Believe me... they are far from the best and should never be allowed to make decisions that affect nations.

...Or part of the propaganda machine. You decide. You know when you listen to a commercial promising that 'Maybe you too could win up to £1000 if you get lucky'?

In other words, there is a chance there is a chance you might win anything from 2P up to £1000, or more likely nothing.

Take time to read closely what is written and what might actually be meant, despite appearances to the contrary. Please do the same with my posts too, then form your own opinion.

Looking closely and reading I fail to see any link with the topic. Only the usual distractions.

[rubl]

So you stated your opinion as involved foreigner. Fine, no problem. The only problem was in your "The truth is ...".

My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive. No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy. Only the usual 'let's have a vote' as if that works when people don't even seem aware of a referendum while all foreigners know such.

"My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive."

I knew you'd bring it up. But, but, but....Thaksin!

rubl's view--"remote control by a criminal fugitive" is unacceptable, even though it was promised in the 2011 election campaign and is what the voters wanted, even though it was legal under the constitution written for the military after their last coup, even though the government was attempting to hold an election to let the voters change their minds.

Heavy handed, human rights trampling control by a military guilty of crimes far worse than Thaksin is fine. The fact that the junta can't be removed without bloodshed, no problem. The fact that it's been tried many times since the 1932 coup without leading to democracy and a military that stays out of politics, not a concern. Who knows, maybe it will be twentieth time lucky. http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21693251-some-generals-come-up-new-plan-saving-thailand-democracy-twentieth-time-lucky

Too bad so few people agree with you.

If that's what some voters wanted than those voters didn't want a democracy. You defend them. Therefore you defend a pseudo democracy or actually you defend Thaksin interfering remotely.

Too bad, but then no real surprise.

I'm more for defending the dregs of Thai society, the downtrodden masses, the poor. They should ignore all those local elite bosses (and a few remote ones). The grassroot organisations were happy as some of their 'betters' seemed to embrace their cause and were utterly deceived. Self-reliance? Education?

Even now after more than a year most Thai still don't know there will be a referendum and lots who know complain they didn't get the draft charter or have had no time to read it. Like I wrote in 2014 a massive engagement would have overwhelmed the junta / current government to the point of making it simply impossible to ignore the people without grave consequences. Instead we had political and Thaksin games as usual. IMHO of course, altruisticly.

"If that's what some voters wanted than those voters didn't want a democracy."

Your detachment for reality is amusing. Now you are redefining democracy into...what? The Thai people were given a choice and they made their choice. If you don't like it, tough.

"You defend them."

As best I can, while you cheer on those who disenfranchise them.

"Therefore you defend a pseudo democracy or actually you defend Thaksin interfering remotely."

I defend the Thai people's choice, you maintain they aren't entitled to a choice.

"I'm more for defending the dregs of Thai society, the downtrodden masses, the poor."

Hilarious! Name a few of these people you defend, the one's who are close personal friends.

You are defending the traditional system in which the Thai government served Bangkok and the elites and ignored the rest of the country. All Thaksin had to do to become unstoppable in elections was shift government investment from 90% for Bangkok, 10% for the rest of the country, to 72% for Bangkok and 28% for the rest of the country. That was enough to build schools, clinics, roads, bridges, etc., to enable the poor to see their children get immunizations, finish school, and sometimes go to university. That's what Thaksin did for the "dregs of Thai society". What have you done?

Here's something that is too often ignored, Thaksin didn't do anything that the government's before him couldn't have done. The military governments and weak democracies before Thaksin could have provided the north and northeast, where the majority of the Thai people live, with basic infrastructure and services. They could have prevented the rise of Thaksin by serving all of Thailand, not just themselves and their cronies. The were too greedy and stupid to do this. These are the people you defend. They created the circumstances for Thaksin, and they forever forfeited their right to govern.

"Even now after more than a year most Thai still don't know there will be a referendum and lots who know complain they didn't get the draft charter or have had no time to read it."

And in spite of the military's heavy-handed censorship of discussion about the referendum, you blame the people, not the junta, for this failure of communication.

"Like I wrote in 2014 a massive engagement would have overwhelmed the junta / current government to the point of making it simply impossible to ignore the people without grave consequences."

Yes, you made it very clear you thought the people should trust and cooperate with the junta that overthrew their elected government. It was a ridiculous idea then and it's still a ridiculous idea. The military has had no trouble ignoring inputs they don't like, just as they had no trouble ignoring a democratically elected government.

As always, you ignore the corruption of the military, its history of coups, juntas, constitutions written and constitutions suspended, with no progress towards democracy. You are blind to the evil you support because you are too busy ranting "But, but, but....Thaksin!"

and you're just into the usual junta bashing trying to distract from being a Thaksin the criminal fugitive supporter. Remote control, no problem for Heybruce the defender of democracy as he likes other to accept it.

Blame the lack of education, the traditional dependency of the local elite. Here I mean the Thai of course, not you Heybruce. I don't blame you for anything.

[rubl]

"My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive."

Actually, your observation is wrong. What I and many other TVF posters (correct me if I'm wrong) are for is a return to democracy, where there are checks and balances in place that can oust a government without resorting to weapons.

Yes, the democracy the military (yet again) overthrew was a seriously flawed one, but a whole lot better than having a bunch of unelected dinosaurs who's main concern is making sure they never again are denied access to the trough. Remember how they promised to root out corruption, nepotism and to treat everyone equally? How is that going??

"No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy."

So are you saying that the present junta are structurally improving the situation and building a real democracy?? And just how are they doing this?

Please list their achievements so far. Come on now, it shouldn't take you long!

My observation is my observation, but nice you say "it's wrong".

Anyway, a return to the situation before as frequently stated by some would be a return to a pseudo democracy with amongst others a criminal fugitive controlling the country via his clone. Hardly democratic.

So, charter voting. I vaguely remember having been told many times the Thai population demands a referendum on the charter. For more than a year actually. Now 'the Thai voters' complain about 'we didn't know', 'we didn't get', 'even our farang didn't tell us', etc., etc. Interesting.

"Anyway, a return to the situation before as frequently stated by some would be a return to a pseudo democracy with amongst others a criminal fugitive controlling the country via his clone. Hardly democratic."

It's what a majority of the electorate voted for - deal with it!

"So, charter voting. I vaguely remember having been told many times the Thai population demands a referendum on the charter. For more than a year actually. Now 'the Thai voters' complain about 'we didn't know', 'we didn't get', 'even our farang didn't tell us', etc., etc. Interesting."

Not interesting, it's sad. Sad how the junta has stifled all public debate and how the population very well understands that the junta plans to retain power whether they vote yes or no. What's also sad is that there are foreigners who actually believe the junta's claims that they are doing this for the good of the country, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Deal with it?

Maybe as soon as you and some other here keep talking about democracy.

[Artisi]

A vote of no confidence?

Only if there was a financial incentive.

[baboon]

Does anyone on this thread think that Halloween or Rubl actually have any experience of working with the military whether in there own country or another country? I can tell you that I have had plenty. From privates right up to Major Generals and I can tell you that I have met very few who would be competent enough to run a privete company let alone a country. I guess they are the types who fall for the type of propoganda you get in the UK and probably most other countries that tells them that the military is the best. Believe me... they are far from the best and should never be allowed to make decisions that affect nations.

...Or part of the propaganda machine. You decide. You know when you listen to a commercial promising that 'Maybe you too could win up to £1000 if you get lucky'?

In other words, there is a chance there is a chance you might win anything from 2P up to £1000, or more likely nothing.

Take time to read closely what is written and what might actually be meant, despite appearances to the contrary. Please do the same with my posts too, then form your own opinion.

Looking closely and reading I fail to see any link with the topic. Only the usual distractions.

Which are all you have left, but you are not the topic of this thread. That aside, encouraging objective reading obviously would make any writer with a dishonest agenda anxious.

Especially those who love to lambast others for immaturity and preach education education education.

[Nbarch]

But of course if only 1% of the population do vote; lets call this group 'the army' and apart from the odd awkward one, you can reasonable assume a 99% vote in favour. Government can then tell people they have an overwhelming vote for the new constitution.

Everybody is very (officially) Happy.

(Except then; the Thai people might just decide to end the present farce with a people style revolution)

[Wilsonandson]

But of course if only 1% of the population do vote; lets call this group 'the army' and apart from the odd awkward one, you can reasonable assume a 99% vote in favour. Government can then tell people they have an overwhelming vote for the new constitution.

Everybody is very (officially) Happy.

(Except then; the Thai people might just decide to end the present farce with a people style revolution)

Let's hope! Fingers crossed!

[heybruce]

"My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive."

I knew you'd bring it up. But, but, but....Thaksin!

rubl's view--"remote control by a criminal fugitive" is unacceptable, even though it was promised in the 2011 election campaign and is what the voters wanted, even though it was legal under the constitution written for the military after their last coup, even though the government was attempting to hold an election to let the voters change their minds.

Heavy handed, human rights trampling control by a military guilty of crimes far worse than Thaksin is fine. The fact that the junta can't be removed without bloodshed, no problem. The fact that it's been tried many times since the 1932 coup without leading to democracy and a military that stays out of politics, not a concern. Who knows, maybe it will be twentieth time lucky. http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21693251-some-generals-come-up-new-plan-saving-thailand-democracy-twentieth-time-lucky

Too bad so few people agree with you.

If that's what some voters wanted than those voters didn't want a democracy. You defend them. Therefore you defend a pseudo democracy or actually you defend Thaksin interfering remotely.

Too bad, but then no real surprise.

I'm more for defending the dregs of Thai society, the downtrodden masses, the poor. They should ignore all those local elite bosses (and a few remote ones). The grassroot organisations were happy as some of their 'betters' seemed to embrace their cause and were utterly deceived. Self-reliance? Education?

Even now after more than a year most Thai still don't know there will be a referendum and lots who know complain they didn't get the draft charter or have had no time to read it. Like I wrote in 2014 a massive engagement would have overwhelmed the junta / current government to the point of making it simply impossible to ignore the people without grave consequences. Instead we had political and Thaksin games as usual. IMHO of course, altruisticly.

"If that's what some voters wanted than those voters didn't want a democracy."

Your detachment for reality is amusing. Now you are redefining democracy into...what? The Thai people were given a choice and they made their choice. If you don't like it, tough.

"You defend them."

As best I can, while you cheer on those who disenfranchise them.

"Therefore you defend a pseudo democracy or actually you defend Thaksin interfering remotely."

I defend the Thai people's choice, you maintain they aren't entitled to a choice.

"I'm more for defending the dregs of Thai society, the downtrodden masses, the poor."

Hilarious! Name a few of these people you defend, the one's who are close personal friends.

You are defending the traditional system in which the Thai government served Bangkok and the elites and ignored the rest of the country. All Thaksin had to do to become unstoppable in elections was shift government investment from 90% for Bangkok, 10% for the rest of the country, to 72% for Bangkok and 28% for the rest of the country. That was enough to build schools, clinics, roads, bridges, etc., to enable the poor to see their children get immunizations, finish school, and sometimes go to university. That's what Thaksin did for the "dregs of Thai society". What have you done?

Here's something that is too often ignored, Thaksin didn't do anything that the government's before him couldn't have done. The military governments and weak democracies before Thaksin could have provided the north and northeast, where the majority of the Thai people live, with basic infrastructure and services. They could have prevented the rise of Thaksin by serving all of Thailand, not just themselves and their cronies. The were too greedy and stupid to do this. These are the people you defend. They created the circumstances for Thaksin, and they forever forfeited their right to govern.

"Even now after more than a year most Thai still don't know there will be a referendum and lots who know complain they didn't get the draft charter or have had no time to read it."

And in spite of the military's heavy-handed censorship of discussion about the referendum, you blame the people, not the junta, for this failure of communication.

"Like I wrote in 2014 a massive engagement would have overwhelmed the junta / current government to the point of making it simply impossible to ignore the people without grave consequences."

Yes, you made it very clear you thought the people should trust and cooperate with the junta that overthrew their elected government. It was a ridiculous idea then and it's still a ridiculous idea. The military has had no trouble ignoring inputs they don't like, just as they had no trouble ignoring a democratically elected government.

As always, you ignore the corruption of the military, its history of coups, juntas, constitutions written and constitutions suspended, with no progress towards democracy. You are blind to the evil you support because you are too busy ranting "But, but, but....Thaksin!"

and you're just into the usual junta bashing trying to distract from being a Thaksin the criminal fugitive supporter. Remote control, no problem for Heybruce the defender of democracy as he likes other to accept it.

Blame the lack of education, the traditional dependency of the local elite. Here I mean the Thai of course, not you Heybruce. I don't blame you for anything.

You just accused baboon of posting distractions then you bring up "Thaksin the criminal fugitive", your favorite off-topic distraction. You make no attempt to hide your hypocrisy.

You also make no attempt to refute anything I posted, you simply call me a Thaksin supporter. Even though I have repeatedly posted that the planned July 2014 election would have taken place when the PTP was at a low point in popularity and could have begun the process of eliminating Thaksin's influence democratically. However I do accept the charge of junta bashing. The military has no business governing Thailand or any other country.

Amazingly, you managed to go downhill from there. You began with nonsense then went off into senseless narrative.

[MZurf]

"My observation is that the negatives here seem all for a return to the previous state, remote control by a criminal fugitive."

Actually, your observation is wrong. What I and many other TVF posters (correct me if I'm wrong) are for is a return to democracy, where there are checks and balances in place that can oust a government without resorting to weapons.

Yes, the democracy the military (yet again) overthrew was a seriously flawed one, but a whole lot better than having a bunch of unelected dinosaurs who's main concern is making sure they never again are denied access to the trough. Remember how they promised to root out corruption, nepotism and to treat everyone equally? How is that going??

"No real structural sound comments to improve the situation and build up a real democracy."

So are you saying that the present junta are structurally improving the situation and building a real democracy?? And just how are they doing this?

Please list their achievements so far. Come on now, it shouldn't take you long!

My observation is my observation, but nice you say "it's wrong".

Anyway, a return to the situation before as frequently stated by some would be a return to a pseudo democracy with amongst others a criminal fugitive controlling the country via his clone. Hardly democratic.

So, charter voting. I vaguely remember having been told many times the Thai population demands a referendum on the charter. For more than a year actually. Now 'the Thai voters' complain about 'we didn't know', 'we didn't get', 'even our farang didn't tell us', etc., etc. Interesting.

"Anyway, a return to the situation before as frequently stated by some would be a return to a pseudo democracy with amongst others a criminal fugitive controlling the country via his clone. Hardly democratic."

It's what a majority of the electorate voted for - deal with it!

"So, charter voting. I vaguely remember having been told many times the Thai population demands a referendum on the charter. For more than a year actually. Now 'the Thai voters' complain about 'we didn't know', 'we didn't get', 'even our farang didn't tell us', etc., etc. Interesting."

Not interesting, it's sad. Sad how the junta has stifled all public debate and how the population very well understands that the junta plans to retain power whether they vote yes or no. What's also sad is that there are foreigners who actually believe the junta's claims that they are doing this for the good of the country, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Deal with it?

Maybe as soon as you and some other here keep talking about democracy.

Yes, that shameless talk about democracy. Shame on us!!!

[rubl]

Deal with it?

Maybe as soon as you and some other here keep talking about democracy.

Yes, that shameless talk about democracy. Shame on us!!!

Excuses and all that, I should have been a bit more clear and explicit.

What I meant was 'stop associating Thaksin and democracy".

As I just replied to your fellow democrat and Thaksin supporter Heybruce, Thaksin, Erdogan and HunSen have a lot in common. All like elections

Edited July 18, 2016 by rubl

[MZurf]

Deal with it?

Maybe as soon as you and some other here keep talking about democracy.

Yes, that shameless talk about democracy. Shame on us!!!

Excuses and all that, I should have been a bit more clear and explicit.

What I meant was 'stop associating Thaksin and democracy".

As I just replied to your fellow democrat and Thaksin supporter Heybruce, Thaksin, Erdogan and HunSen have a lot in common. All like elections

"Excuses and all that, I should have been a bit more clear and explicit."

Yes, being clear and explicit is something you should work on.

"What I meant was 'stop associating Thaksin and democracy".

Please refrain from telling me what to do, thanks. No matter how you twist it he was democratically elected.

"As I just replied to your fellow democrat and Thaksin supporter Heybruce......."

Mommyyyyy, he called me a democrat!!! Just out of curiosity; what do you call yourself?

Never supported Thaksin (and I dare you to quote me doing so), only his (and the rest of the PTP leaders) right to be elected - and most of all, not to be thrown out in a coup.

[Holy Cinema]

The junta wants people to vote, even Ms. Yingluck wants people to vote. Strange isn't it.

Except the Junta want people to vote their way, it's moot, vote no, and they stay in power, vote yes, they still stay in power.

The losers are the people of Thailand who want the circle of coups and interfering Military to be broken.

[heybruce]

Edit: I removed my reply to a post, as the post was removed by the moderator.

Edited July 25, 2016 by heybruce

[metisdead]

Posts containing off topic trolling remarks have been removed as well as the replies.

[baboon]

Posts containing off topic trolling remarks have been removed as well as the replies.

I don't suppose you are taking bets on who posted them, are you?