Working remotely on Non Immigrant O (dependent)

[halfbrick]

Hi all,

My wife and I are UK citizens. She's has a job which will provide her with a Visa and I will be her dependent (Non Immigrant O visa).

I am a software engineer and will be freelancing for several international clients. I was wondering:

- Do I need to apply for a work permit to do this?

- Will it be possible to get a work permit to do this?

- Is is possible to avoid getting a work permit? I will be getting paid through my UK limited company, and I will likely not even be transferring any of my income to Thailand.

Thanks!

[Upnotover]

Yes

No

Yes

Don't tell any more people about it. And tell your wife not to as well.

[rwdrwdrwd]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Edited July 9, 2016 by rwdrwdrwd

[seancbk]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

[abrahamzvi]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

I would really advise you NOT, repeat NOT, to do this . This will be bordering on tax evasion (in the UK) based on fake documents/ addresses. Set up a proper HK limited company, which is not expensive and carry on.

[Bunnychow]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

And what happens when the HK BIB start investigating the "company" for fraudulent trading

setting up a legitimate shelf corporation in HK is so easy why even bother going the fictitious route unless one is completly stupid and lazy, or is fact undertaking and illegal business to start with

[seancbk]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

I would really advise you NOT, repeat NOT, to do this . This will be bordering on tax evasion (in the UK) based on fake documents/ addresses. Set up a proper HK limited company, which is not expensive and carry on.

As a Brit do you pay tax if you are not living in the UK?

I didn't think you do but I guess I could be wrong as I've never actually lived there (I am British by passport)

If you don't live in Hong Kong and your income that is banked there is not derived from HK customers then that income is not taxable.

[seancbk]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

And what happens when the HK BIB start investigating the "company" for fraudulent trading

setting up a legitimate shelf corporation in HK is so easy why even bother going the fictitious route unless one is completly stupid and lazy, or is fact undertaking and illegal business to start with

Why would the HK Police have anything to do with it?

The OP is doing work online (software engineering)

All he needs to do is set up a personal bank account in Hong Kong

Then invoice his customers as himslef and ask them to pay into his personal account in HK.

Why does he need a company?

Nothing fraudulent at all..... except if he wants to 'brand' himself, in which case just put a brand on the invoice "XYZ Software Development"

Why does that need to be 'a company'?

You only need a company when tax is involved but as tax would not be part of the equation I can't see the need for an actual company structure.

If you did something for me online like fixing my website and I needed to pay you, would you go to the trouble of setting up a company or simply let me transfer the payment to you?

[JackThompson]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

As an American, this would not work, because one's overseas income is taxable, even if one does not spend a day in the USA. Payments to a personal account are personal-income. Most/all foreign banks report your income to the USA-tax authorities.

OTOH, if an overseas business receives income, one is only taxed on income one takes out of the business (withdrawls of equity, dividends, etc), so a legitimate business entity is a must. If that business is in the USA, the business must pay taxes - but not so in HK (on non HK-income)

If anyone would please post 1st-hand info about setting up a legit HK company via a legit-firm or solo, so that I and others may avoid the possible-scam 'agents' offering such services, this would be appreciated.

[Bunnychow]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

I would really advise you NOT, repeat NOT, to do this . This will be bordering on tax evasion (in the UK) based on fake documents/ addresses. Set up a proper HK limited company, which is not expensive and carry on.

As a Brit do you pay tax if you are not living in the UK?

I didn't think you do but I guess I could be wrong as I've never actually lived there (I am British by passport)

If you don't live in Hong Kong and your income that is banked there is not derived from HK customers then that income is not taxable.

depends whether you are declared legally non-resident for tax purposes or not and whether you have UK sourced income or not.

you may have never lived in the UK ever, but if for some reason you have UK source income you in all likelihood liable for UK tax on that income source

[seancbk]

As a Brit do you pay tax if you are not living in the UK?

I didn't think you do but I guess I could be wrong as I've never actually lived there (I am British by passport)

If you don't live in Hong Kong and your income that is banked there is not derived from HK customers then that income is not taxable.

depends whether you are declared legally non-resident for tax purposes or not and whether you have UK sourced income or not.

you may have never lived in the UK ever, but if for some reason you have UK source income you in all likelihood liable for UK tax on that income source

In my case I've never been resident in the UK. Not born there, never lived there, rarely even visited.

I also have zero UK sourced income so I'm good on that account.

But we are not talking about me and I'd wager the OP *is* probably still legally resident and therefore liable for tax in the UK on UK derived income.

If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax.

[Bunnychow]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

And what happens when the HK BIB start investigating the "company" for fraudulent trading

setting up a legitimate shelf corporation in HK is so easy why even bother going the fictitious route unless one is completly stupid and lazy, or is fact undertaking and illegal business to start with

Why would the HK Police have anything to do with it?

The OP is doing work online (software engineering)

All he needs to do is set up a personal bank account in Hong Kong

Then invoice his customers as himslef and ask them to pay into his personal account in HK.

Why does he need a company?

Nothing fraudulent at all..... except if he wants to 'brand' himself, in which case just put a brand on the invoice "XYZ Software Development"

Why does that need to be 'a company'?

You only need a company when tax is involved but as tax would not be part of the equation I can't see the need for an actual company structure.

If you did something for me online like fixing my website and I needed to pay you, would you go to the trouble of setting up a company or simply let me transfer the payment to you?

Lets say our OP is a UK national who works on line for UK based companies, as the income is UK sourced, if he works as an individual, ie no legal entity, the company he works for is legally obligated to take income tax off him for services rendered.

The way around this is to set up a legal entity such as a limited company to invoice the UK company to "A company" and the individuals tax liability doesn't come into play and is shifted onto "company A" which is owned by the OP and typically these shelf companies are based in jurisdictions with low company tax and low personal income tax, such as HK.

If the OP creates a false company with false invoices reputably from a HK company (which is not legally registered) he is committing tax fraud in the UK, and he is committing companies fraud in HK. further under companies law, putting company invoice amounts into a private bank account is also "illegal" as the money is intended for the legal entity which is recognized as a "person"

[Bunnychow]

As a Brit do you pay tax if you are not living in the UK?

I didn't think you do but I guess I could be wrong as I've never actually lived there (I am British by passport)

If you don't live in Hong Kong and your income that is banked there is not derived from HK customers then that income is not taxable.

depends whether you are declared legally non-resident for tax purposes or not and whether you have UK sourced income or not.

you may have never lived in the UK ever, but if for some reason you have UK source income you in all likelihood liable for UK tax on that income source

In my case I've never been resident in the UK. Not born there, never lived there, rarely even visited.

I also have zero UK sourced income so I'm good on that account.

But we are not talking about me and I'd wager the OP *is* probably still legally resident and therefore liable for tax in the UK on UK derived income.

If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax.

"If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax"

As its the source of the monies that's the issue...A UK pensioner living in Thailand having never set foot in the UK for 20 years will still be paying tax in his pension in the UK as the source of the income is the UK

Further if the OP has never worked outside the UK, to be declared non-resent for tax he needs to have been out of the UK for a prescribed amount of time and needs to qualify under the rules for non-residency for tax purposes

[seancbk]

And what happens when the HK BIB start investigating the "company" for fraudulent trading

setting up a legitimate shelf corporation in HK is so easy why even bother going the fictitious route unless one is completly stupid and lazy, or is fact undertaking and illegal business to start with

Why would the HK Police have anything to do with it?

The OP is doing work online (software engineering)

All he needs to do is set up a personal bank account in Hong Kong

Then invoice his customers as himslef and ask them to pay into his personal account in HK.

Why does he need a company?

Nothing fraudulent at all..... except if he wants to 'brand' himself, in which case just put a brand on the invoice "XYZ Software Development"

Why does that need to be 'a company'?

You only need a company when tax is involved but as tax would not be part of the equation I can't see the need for an actual company structure.

If you did something for me online like fixing my website and I needed to pay you, would you go to the trouble of setting up a company or simply let me transfer the payment to you?

Lets say our OP is a UK national who works on line for UK based companies, as the income is UK sourced, if he works as an individual, ie no legal entity, the company he works for is legally obligated to take income tax off him for services rendered.

The way around this is to set up a legal entity such as a limited company to invoice the UK company to "A company" and the individuals tax liability doesn't come into play and is shifted onto "company A" which is owned by the OP and typically these shelf companies are based in jurisdictions with low company tax and low personal income tax, such as HK.

If the OP creates a false company with false invoices reputably from a HK company (which is not legally registered) he is committing tax fraud in the UK, and he is committing companies fraud in HK. further under companies law, putting company invoice amounts into a private bank account is also "illegal" as the money is intended for the legal entity which is recognized as a "person"

The OP stated "I am a software engineer and will be freelancing for several international clients." Which I took to mean his clients (or at least a portion of them are non-UK based)

He presumably has a mechanism in place in the UK (where he is coming from) to invoice clients.

What he wanted to know was about Thai work permits and quite rightly he was advised to just work online as he always has but just avoid talking about it to much (if at all).

It was rwdrwdrwd who suggested a HK company to limit tax exposure on income from non UK entities. I merely questioned why the OP would even need a company.

Putting a logo and a company name (that doesn't exist) is just a design feature. The invoice is from a person to a client and payment is to that person submitting the invoice.

Of course if the OP were interested in banking in HK and doesn't want to brand himself then he can just invoice as an individual and forgo the nicety of having a 'business name' and logo on his invoices

Or could he invoice as "John Smith dba (doing business as) - Freelance Software Company"

The only issue I can really see is making sure the 'virtual' business name isn't in fact taken by an actual legal entity in HK.

[seancbk]

In my case I've never been resident in the UK. Not born there, never lived there, rarely even visited.

I also have zero UK sourced income so I'm good on that account.

But we are not talking about me and I'd wager the OP *is* probably still legally resident and therefore liable for tax in the UK on UK derived income.

If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax.

"If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax"

As its the source of the monies that's the issue...A UK pensioner living in Thailand having never set foot in the UK for 20 years will still be paying tax in his pension in the UK as the source of the income is the UK

Further if the OP has never worked outside the UK, to be declared non-resent for tax he needs to have been out of the UK for a prescribed amount of time and needs to qualify under the rules for non-residency for tax purposes

But we are talking about monies derived outside of the UK from as the OP said "International Clients"

[Bunnychow]

In my case I've never been resident in the UK. Not born there, never lived there, rarely even visited.

I also have zero UK sourced income so I'm good on that account.

But we are not talking about me and I'd wager the OP *is* probably still legally resident and therefore liable for tax in the UK on UK derived income.

If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax.

"If the OP also earns monies from outside the UK and banks them in HK, I don't see how that would be liable for UK tax"

As its the source of the monies that's the issue...A UK pensioner living in Thailand having never set foot in the UK for 20 years will still be paying tax in his pension in the UK as the source of the income is the UK

Further if the OP has never worked outside the UK, to be declared non-resent for tax he needs to have been out of the UK for a prescribed amount of time and needs to qualify under the rules for non-residency for tax purposes

But we are talking about monies derived outside of the UK from as the OP said "International Clients"

"international clients" can mean anything, but he also says invoicing through his UK company, so the UK tax liability what ever that may be is already established, and one assumes its his own company in the UK which invoices his "international clients" company to company...which is exactly what we are talking about in relation to HK...

So if he keeps the structure he has, he will be paying UK income tax in some shape or form anyway....he can get away from this, if as suggested he forms another company in the likes of HK and moves his UK company "offshore" but you do it legally and not mess about with false companies and dummy invoices from entities that don't exist..that's just plain stupid

[Bunnychow]

Putting a logo and a company name (that doesn't exist) is just a design feature. The invoice is from a person to a client and payment is to that person submitting the invoice.

That is possibly fraud and definitely misrepresentation, you cant represent yourself as a company ie a legal entity and then invoice from a person to client...

[DUS]

Where would OP have to pay tax if he put his private address in Thailand on his invoices and invoices his UK and other international clients as a private individual? Assuming he lives in LOS all year around, wouldn´t it actually be the Thais who´d be entitled to receiving the tax? Now, since he cannot legally work as a freelancer he cannot pay the tax over here, since, officially, he isn´t working. So what will happen if he doesn´t declare his income to neither the UK nor the Thai tax authorities?

[Baerboxer]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

I would really advise you NOT, repeat NOT, to do this . This will be bordering on tax evasion (in the UK) based on fake documents/ addresses. Set up a proper HK limited company, which is not expensive and carry on.

As a Brit do you pay tax if you are not living in the UK?

I didn't think you do but I guess I could be wrong as I've never actually lived there (I am British by passport)

If you don't live in Hong Kong and your income that is banked there is not derived from HK customers then that income is not taxable.

As a British citizen, non resident for tax purposes, I believe you are still liable for tax on any income (business, investment, rental etc) that arises in the UK and is more than the personal tax allowance. If any of his international customers are UK based and he's being paid by the UK part of the business then he will have to complete a tax form. Or risk being caught and prosecuted.

I have a company in HK along with my HK business partner. It's is easy to open a registered business. However, much harder to get the business bank account open. And Banks make it very clear you are not allowed to use a personal banking account for business. They will act if they suspect you are.

Do not use your personal account. If caught you will jump through hoops to keep the account open.

[Bunnychow]

Where would OP have to pay tax if he put his private address in Thailand on his invoices and invoices his UK and other international clients as a private individual? Assuming he lives in LOS all year around, wouldn´t it actually be the Thais who´d be entitled to receiving the tax? Now, since he cannot legally work as a freelancer he cannot pay the tax over here, since, officially, he isn´t working. So what will happen if he doesn´t declare his income to neither the UK nor the Thai tax authorities?

Invoices originating from Thailand, so confirmation he is working in Thailand, needs a WP and needs to pay Thai income tax,

Resident in Thailand for more than 180 p.a. he is classed as a resident of Thailand for tax purposes and therefore liable for tax on all worldwide income if he brings the money into Thailand the year its earned...*see above using invoices with a Thai address to confirm how they would know when the money was earned

UK sourced income - HMRC would get first dibs at his tax money and most likely nothing payable in Thailand under the reciprocal tax agreement

International clients - Thai tax man gets first dibs, as he is resident in Thailand for more than 180 days p.a.

Edited July 11, 2016 by Bunnychow

[DUS]

Invoices originating from Thailand, so confirmation he is working in Thailand, needs a WP and needs to pay Thai income tax,

Resident in Thailand for more than 180 p.a. he is classed as a resident of Thailand for tax purposes and therefore liable for tax on all worldwide income if he brings the money into Thailand the year its earned...*see above using invoices with a Thai address to confirm how they would know when the money was earned

UK sourced income - HMRC would get first dibs at his tax money and most likely nothing payable in Thailand under the reciprocal tax agreement

International clients - Thai tax man gets first dibs, as he is resident in Thailand for more than 180 days p.a.

Ok ...

Over time, I´ve spoken to quite a few freelancers over here and how they handle their tax affairs. The vast majority of them said that they just invoice their clients in (predominantly) the UK but don´t declare the income to neither HMRC nor the Thai authorities (the latter understandably so since none of them had a WP). When I said "But this is tax evasion/fraud" they only replied: "Yeah, but they are never going to find out."

Well, I thought and still think that this is wishful thinking, isn´t it?

[Bunnychow]

Invoices originating from Thailand, so confirmation he is working in Thailand, needs a WP and needs to pay Thai income tax,

Resident in Thailand for more than 180 p.a. he is classed as a resident of Thailand for tax purposes and therefore liable for tax on all worldwide income if he brings the money into Thailand the year its earned...*see above using invoices with a Thai address to confirm how they would know when the money was earned

UK sourced income - HMRC would get first dibs at his tax money and most likely nothing payable in Thailand under the reciprocal tax agreement

International clients - Thai tax man gets first dibs, as he is resident in Thailand for more than 180 days p.a.

Ok ...

Over time, I´ve spoken to quite a few freelancers over here and how they handle their tax affairs. The vast majority of them said that they just invoice their clients in (predominantly) the UK but don´t declare the income to neither HMRC nor the Thai authorities (the latter understandably so since none of them had a WP). When I said "But this is tax evasion/fraud" they only replied: "Yeah, but they are never going to find out."

Well, I thought and still think that this is wishful thinking, isn´t it?

80 countries have signed an agreement with the UK government to hand over mass account data of British passport holders starting from next year I think it is...so if the freelancers are hiding their UK sourced money in these countries then the UK tax man will have the info, which could lead to many questions from the tax man.

I am not a freelancer and i bank in Singapore and a UK passport holder, so if the taxman from the UK ever came knocking.

1. I work in Thailand and pay my taxes here

2. Haven't set foot in the UK in over 15 years

3. have no bank accounts in the UK

4 Have no house or properties

Per the new definitions, I have absolutely "no closes ties" with the UK, and I am automatically non resident...

so as far as I am concerned they can kiss my a*se

But under the new "non-residency" one needs to be quite careful if one has "ties" with the UK somehow or spends too much time in the UK in a given tax year

[halfbrick]

Cheers for the info. Very helpful.

My main client isn't based in the UK, so I don't really have any tax obligation in the UK.

Like @JackThompson said, I too would be interested in hearing 1st hand accounts of setting up a limited company in HK or Singapore. From what I've heard, the process of getting a HK bank account has become a lot more difficult recently.

[gios50hk]

You must like paying tax a lot.. Why not set up a HK co, invoice with that and legally enjoy 100% tax free income - no personal or corp tax except for income derived from HK clients. Just a thought.

Why even bother setting up a HK company.

Just get a personal bank account in HK and issue invoices on a fictitious company, with a fake or partial HK address.

As an American, this would not work, because one's overseas income is taxable, even if one does not spend a day in the USA. Payments to a personal account are personal-income. Most/all foreign banks report your income to the USA-tax authorities.

OTOH, if an overseas business receives income, one is only taxed on income one takes out of the business (withdrawls of equity, dividends, etc), so a legitimate business entity is a must. If that business is in the USA, the business must pay taxes - but not so in HK (on non HK-income)

If anyone would please post 1st-hand info about setting up a legit HK company via a legit-firm or solo, so that I and others may avoid the possible-scam 'agents' offering such services, this would be appreciated.

[gios50hk]

To Jack Thompson - I was interested in your comments regarding this topic and wonder if you can offer me any advice?

I lived (and worked) in HK for 20 years and am therefore a 'HK resident' - although I am British. I also had my own business there and business and personal bank accounts. Regrettably, when I retired to Thailand just over two years ago, I closed my business and bank accounts thinking I would not need them any longer. However, I now wish to consider my consultancy business here - but have been told I need to establish a Thai company (and all the paraphernalia that involves!) as well as acquire a work permit.

I am considering re-registering my business in HK again and re-opening my bank accounts there also. From what I have read and if I have understood it correctly, can I then simply invoice my clients to pay me through my HK company? Also, would I still need a work permit as I am effectively working for a HK-based company?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

[Bunnychow]

To Jack Thompson - I was interested in your comments regarding this topic and wonder if you can offer me any advice?

I lived (and worked) in HK for 20 years and am therefore a 'HK resident' - although I am British. I also had my own business there and business and personal bank accounts. Regrettably, when I retired to Thailand just over two years ago, I closed my business and bank accounts thinking I would not need them any longer. However, I now wish to consider my consultancy business here - but have been told I need to establish a Thai company (and all the paraphernalia that involves!) as well as acquire a work permit.

I am considering re-registering my business in HK again and re-opening my bank accounts there also. From what I have read and if I have understood it correctly, can I then simply invoice my clients to pay me through my HK company? Also, would I still need a work permit as I am effectively working for a HK-based company?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

If your physically present in Thailand and working you would need a WP, where your getting paid is irrelevant in terms of the WP definitions

[gios50hk]

To Jack Thompson - I was interested in your comments regarding this topic and wonder if you can offer me any advice?

I lived (and worked) in HK for 20 years and am therefore a 'HK resident' - although I am British. I also had my own business there and business and personal bank accounts. Regrettably, when I retired to Thailand just over two years ago, I closed my business and bank accounts thinking I would not need them any longer. However, I now wish to consider my consultancy business here - but have been told I need to establish a Thai company (and all the paraphernalia that involves!) as well as acquire a work permit.

I am considering re-registering my business in HK again and re-opening my bank accounts there also. From what I have read and if I have understood it correctly, can I then simply invoice my clients to pay me through my HK company? Also, would I still need a work permit as I am effectively working for a HK-based company?

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

If your physically present in Thailand and working you would need a WP, where your getting paid is irrelevant in terms of the WP definitions

[gios50hk]

To Jack Thompson - Thanks for your reply.

So I will still need to get a Work Permit? But can I set up and register my company in HK as opposed to going through this here in Thailand?

Any advice would be much appreciated!

[DUS]

From what I learnt it is not possible to get a WP without working for a Thai company (whether this is as a "normal employee" or a company director).

Isn´t that true?

[Bunnychow]

From what I learnt it is not possible to get a WP without working for a Thai company (whether this is as a "normal employee" or a company director).

Isn´t that true?

You can be company director without a WP provided you play no active role in operating the business in Thailand.

A WP can be had for a representative office which technically is not a Thai company, but you can only operate the office for 6 years, need to front THB 6.million (if memory serves) you don't need the 4 Thai employee thing etc, and you not allowed to invoice via the rep office