Getting a Thai tax ID without Work Permit?

[AmazingAndy]

I consider myself lucky, being able to earn a decent amount of money by programming code for several international clients, none of them in Thailand. I only need to work about 10 hours a week to make several thousand $ a month.

I have left my European home country several Years ago for good, have no residency there any more, but still maintain a Bank Account.

I have married my Thai GF a few Years ago, and own two houses together with her, in Pattaya as well as one in her province.

I spend about 200 to 250 days a Year in Thailand, mainly doing nothing in terms of my work.

The rest of the Year I spend in Vietnam, Malaysia or the Philippines, where I stay in Hotels. Most of my coding work is done there, as I can concentrate much better while being alone.

The companies I work for pay my fees into my European Account. Communication with them is done by Email and sometimes Skype. I transfer funds for my personal expenses from there into my Thai as well as Philippine account, or draw cash from ATMs wherever I stay.

I'm wondering g where to register for taxation of my income, suppose it should be Thailand, but I've been told by two lawyers that I can't register for a tax ID without a work permit. Applying for a work Permit without actually working here seems a bit strange.

I'm just worried that this whole situation without paying any taxes will one day come and haunt me.

[Satcommlee]

I understand why you want to legalise yourself and pay tax, but without work permit it is not possible.

I was in the same boat but found a local company in my industry sector to act as umbrella for tax and payroll and work permit.

Mind you in hindsight i kinda regret it as Thailand is no tax haven but I have on the positive side developed a status where my bank wants to give me everything from 1M THB credit limits on my credit card to mortgages and a 5M THB credit line in securities trading.

I'm married with a kid here and needed to legalise myself several years ago as I do believe you have to pay tax somewhere.. or future database integration could be painful when they finally catch up with you.

[dabhand]

I recall a thread from a few months back where a poster indicated that he obtained a tax number without having a work permit.

He apparently was receiving rental income on a property (I think it may have been a condo in Bangkok) and he was very keen to pay any tax that was due. He indicated that he did succeed in obtaining a Tax number but it was not a particularly easy process. it apparently took a few trips to the tax office but he claims that he did achieve a positive (for him, anyway) outcome.

Can't recall the posters name, or find the thread, I'm afraid. Maybe a trip to the nearest Tax Office might work for you, but be prepared for some interesting reactions from the staffers.

Of course, the poster may have been spinning a yarn, not unusual I'm sure.

[elviajero]

The lawyers are wrong. You can apply for a TIN from your area revenue office. It's needed by anyone wanting to submit a tax return.

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/21987.0.html

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/38156.0.html

[chiang mai]

Absolutely no problem whatsoever obtaining a tax ID without a work permit, many retired foreigners here have them and most file a tax return each year in order to get a refund on the tax they pay on bank accounts. Simply go to the tax office and register.

As for where you should register for tax:

You would need to spend more than 183 days each year in Thailand to become liable to income tax here but even then, only on income earned here - in the case of pension income it means pension income remitted here during the year it was earned. Sure, if you work in Thailand you need a work permit but the scenario you describe seems like a grey area, even if you did get a work permit and paid tax on your earnings here, it would be a nightmare trying to calculate out how many days were attributable to work done in Thailand and consequently taxable, versus days spent working outside the country and not taxable. The thought, let sleeping dogs lie, seems appropriate here!

[Cloggie]

Maybe this will help you: http://iglu.net/

[chiang mai]

Maybe this will help you: http://iglu.net/

With a 30% overhead the OP may just as well pay tax in Thailand and be done, taxes here are not that painful and it's pro-rata based on him working overseas.

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

I used to use an umbrella company out of HK years ago but invoicing and funds transfer was never more than 5% of the invoice total, similar deals can still be done today I imagine.

Edited July 21, 2016 by chiang mai

[SoFarAndNear]

Maybe this will help you: http://iglu.net/

I have sent 2x e-mails to Iglu in the last 3 months, The have never replied to me.

[Time Traveller]

I understand why you want to legalise yourself and pay tax, but without work permit it is not possible.

That is 100% false

[KittenKong]

I have a Thai tax ID which I use to claim back the withholding tax deducted on bank interest every year.

I do not work and I dont have a work permit, and I dont declare any income here (because I dont have any).

[williet98248]

Just go to your local Revenue Office. They will give you a Tax Number. No WP required.

[topt]

I have a Thai tax ID which I use to claim back the withholding tax deducted on bank interest every year.

I do not work and I dont have a work permit, and I dont declare any income here (because I dont have any).

Snap - and from previous topics in the Banking etc forum I reckon there must be dozens of others - and that's just the ones that post

[GOLDBUGGY]

If I was you I wouldn't even go down this road at all. Your greatest worry isn't that the Tax Man may come looking for you one day. There is probably a greater worry that the Immigration Man will come looking for you one day for working without a permit. But even that is a Grey Area and difficult to prove in your case. Although if you give them a reason to investigate, and they check your computer, who knows what they might find.

The Golden Rule of living and working Overseas is to earn your money in one country, bank in yet another country, and live in the third country. It appears you are doing that right now. I suppose (technically) you may feel that since you live in Thailand you are required to pay Income Taxes in Thailand. But also none of your income is derived from Thailand and is only your World Wide Income you are concerned about. Many countries are not concerned with that, and don't even have Tax Laws to cover that. That is if you did not earn an income in that country to begin with.

Personally if I earned income in Thailand I would pay my Income Taxes. If I did not I wouldn't worry about it. Many people working overseas come here until they find there next job and don't worry about paying taxes here just because they have been here longer than 6 months. So you would not be the first one to ignore this, or the last one.

[FforestFach]

I asked the forum a similar question some months ago (I'm in Thailand on a Non-Imm OA "retirement visa") and was advised to visit my local Phuket tax office, which I did, and was told to return and apply for a Thai tax number after I had been in the country >180 days during the calendar year as evidenced by visa stamps in my passport. I shall indeed return to that tax office in October. No work permit required as experts on this forum have explained.

[AmazingAndy]

If I was you I wouldn't even go down this road at all. Your greatest worry isn't that the Tax Man may come looking for you one day. There is probably a greater worry that the Immigration Man will come looking for you one day for working without a permit. But even that is a Grey Area and difficult to prove in your case. Although if you give them a reason to investigate, and they check your computer, who knows what they might find.

I cant See myself doing anything illegal here. I'm really not working while in Thailand. Ok, not more than any employed or self-employed tourist in an entrepreneurial or managerial position, like occasionally phoning his company, reading and answering an email, and making mental notes of work-related ideas when they randomly pop up during a beach walk.

The Golden Rule of living and working Overseas is to earn your money in one country, bank in yet another country, and live in the third country. It appears you are doing that right now. I suppose (technically) you may feel that since you live in Thailand you are required to pay Income Taxes in Thailand. But also none of your income is derived from Thailand and is only your World Wide Income you are concerned about. Many countries are not concerned with that, and don't even have Tax Laws to cover that. That is if you did not earn an income in that country to begin with.

Personally if I earned income in Thailand I would pay my Income Taxes. If I did not I wouldn't worry about it. Many people working overseas come here until they find there next job and don't worry about paying taxes here just because they have been here longer than 6 months. So you would not be the first one to ignore this, or the last one.

In general this means I could get a Thai Tax ID, but would not pay tax as all my income is derived from outside ThAiland, for work done outside Thailand.

I might be in conflict with labor laws in the other Countries I spend the time to do my coding, but that is another issue, and from what I researched so far, it is only Thailand that rigidly limits the activities of tourists in such a way.

[rwdrwdrwd]

Thailand does tax foreign income of tax residents (and if you spend > 180 days a year here then you are one), but only the portion of it that is remitted to Thailand in the year it is earned.

I certainly wouldn't get paid to an account in my home country in your position, it leaves open loads of questions, bureaucracy, and quite possibly tax implications. Receive funds to a personal account in a third country as per GOLDBUGGY's advice imo.

If any of your 'international clients' happen to be based in your home country, that adds further complication that is probably best solved by incorporating offshore in a fourth country and invoicing from that.

Edited July 22, 2016 by rwdrwdrwd

[GOLDBUGGY]

If I was you I wouldn't even go down this road at all. Your greatest worry isn't that the Tax Man may come looking for you one day. There is probably a greater worry that the Immigration Man will come looking for you one day for working without a permit. But even that is a Grey Area and difficult to prove in your case. Although if you give them a reason to investigate, and they check your computer, who knows what they might find.

I cant See myself doing anything illegal here. I'm really not working while in Thailand. Ok, not more than any employed or self-employed tourist in an entrepreneurial or managerial position, like occasionally phoning his company, reading and answering an email, and making mental notes of work-related ideas when they randomly pop up during a beach walk.

The Golden Rule of living and working Overseas is to earn your money in one country, bank in yet another country, and live in the third country. It appears you are doing that right now. I suppose (technically) you may feel that since you live in Thailand you are required to pay Income Taxes in Thailand. But also none of your income is derived from Thailand and is only your World Wide Income you are concerned about. Many countries are not concerned with that, and don't even have Tax Laws to cover that. That is if you did not earn an income in that country to begin with.

Personally if I earned income in Thailand I would pay my Income Taxes. If I did not I wouldn't worry about it. Many people working overseas come here until they find there next job and don't worry about paying taxes here just because they have been here longer than 6 months. So you would not be the first one to ignore this, or the last one.

In general this means I could get a Thai Tax ID, but would not pay tax as all my income is derived from outside ThAiland, for work done outside Thailand.

I might be in conflict with labor laws in the other Countries I spend the time to do my coding, but that is another issue, and from what I researched so far, it is only Thailand that rigidly limits the activities of tourists in such a way.

I hope you understand from my post that I am not suggesting that you are doing anything illegal here. Although to be totally honest and between us, I find it difficult to believe that someone with a job such as your, where you can and do work at home, but can still put his computer away locked up someplace, and not doing any work here. Even though you stay here longer than 180 days a year. But if you say so I won't argue the point. I believe you. Just saying other may not.

I think we can all agree that Tax Laws are complicated in many countries, and why they have Accountants and Tax Lawyers to begin with. It is seldom so cut and dry to simple say that since you spend over 183 days in a country you are obligated to pay your Income Taxes there. If this were the case in Thailand then everyone staying here on a 1 year extension would be required to provide a Tax I.D. Number and show proof of tax paid, prior to getting this extension. It is possible and likely to come to Thailand as a Tourist and stay here 6 months. Many people do.

So the first basic rule in establishing Income Taxes is establishing your "Residency". Establishing "Residency" is not based on how long you stay in a country, although this can be secondary. The Golden Rule on establishing "Residency" is "Your Home is where Your Heart is". Since Family Ties are generally close to ones heart, then they take this into consideration. So if your wife (and/or Children) lives in Thailand, you have a Rental Agreement longer than a hotel bill or own your accommodations you are living in, perhaps have a car or motor bike, a bank account, and now live here at least 183 Days, then it is clear your

"Residency" is Thailand.

To complicate matters further, and even after establishing "Residency" for some countries is does not mean you have a Income Tax obligation to them. Thailand is one of those countries. If your total income for tax purposes comes from outside the country, and you are not in that country for at least 183 days, then you may not have a tax liability in that country.

I believe the Netherlands is still like this were as the UK has changes things some and you need to be out of the country more now. In the USA you pay taxes no matter how long you are out of the country (at a reduced rate) and in Canada it makes no difference how long you are out, as they base tax obligation to residency. In Canada for instance you can be out of the country for the whole tax year, but if your home and wife is still in Canada, and you have supporting documents showing this is still your place of residence, like a car, updated club memberships, valid drivers license, bank accounts, your Income Tax obligation is still in Canada even when you earned your money in a different country.

One sure fired rule for almost all countries who have Income Taxes, is that any money you earned from that country is a tax liability to you. Although the company you work for can pay this on your behalf. So for you to be totally legal you would need to check into all the companies who paid you and find out there tax laws regarding this income. Then pay them what you owe them and then check in Thailand Tax Laws and see if they have any Tax Agreements with these countries.A Real Nightmare! Also why multi-national companies have a boat load of Accountants on Staff and Tax Lawyers.

So as I have said in the past, and if I was you, I would let sleeping dogs lie. You are just one of many small fish in a very Big Fry Pan. Who knows what can of worms your will open when you get an Income Tax I.D. Number and start filling out your Income Taxes in Thailand showing your world wide income? I understand you wanting to be legal, but yours is very complicated and thus perhaps you are legal now by doing nothing.

[BigFun]

You can always set up a Thai Ltd company and then invoice via this if you wish to pay tax. Not so expensive and you can write off all sorts of expenses against the revenue.