Motorcyclists want ban on flyovers in Bangkok to be lifted

[webfact]

Motorcyclists want ban on flyovers to be lifted

  

BANGKOK, 3 August 2016 (NNT) - Metropolitan police are set to meet with motorcyclists for the second time next week, following their request to lift the ban which prevents them from using 39 flyovers in Bangkok. 

Deputy Metropolitan Police Chief Pol Maj Gen Adul Narongsak said that the first meeting with motorcyclist representatives was unable to reach any conclusion or agreement. 

They claimed that motorcyclists have negatively affected by the ban since it was enforced on July 23rd. Academics and those from a transport sector will also attend the second meeting to observe the discussions. 

The Deputy Metropolitan Police Chief said he has yet to decide whether to terminate the ban, as more information is needed to ensure the final decision will benefit both sides.

 

-- nnt 2016-08-03

[smedly]

and while you're at it lets get the ban on motorbikes on tollways modified to allow 600cc + access, no other developed country in the world has such a ban, I can understand why it is in place but there are now large displacement bikes sold in Thailand and their numbers are progressively increasing ........... move with the times, tourists like to tour your country on motorbikes - why make it so difficult

[ikwiljou]

40 minutes ago, smedly said:

and while you're at it lets get the ban on motorbikes on tollways modified to allow 600cc + access, no other developed country in the world has such a ban, I can understand why it is in place but there are now large displacement bikes sold in Thailand and their numbers are progressively increasing ........... move with the times, tourists like to tour your country on motorbikes - why make it so difficult

250CC+ will do also. Their speed can easy follow the trafic on tollways here.

[Deli]

can someone explain where this stupid law is originating from ?

[Centrum]

4 hours ago, ikwiljou said:

250CC+ will do also. Their speed can easy follow the traffic on tollways here.

Guess who has a 250?

[harrry]

3 minutes ago, Centrum said:

Guess who has a 250?

He will be really sad when they do and the policeman points out that his bike is really 249cc.

 

 

eg

he Yamaha YZF-R3 is a sport motorcycle manufactured by Yamaha since 2015. It is sold in some markets as the YZF-R25 with a 249 cc engine. 

Edited August 3, 2016 by harrry

[Centrum]

2 hours ago, Deli said:

can someone explain where this stupid law is originating from ?

Only poor people have motorcycles. The rich HiSos don't want to be stuck in traffic, so they have their friends in Govt build expressways, bridges and underpasses to get them through the traffic faster.

Privilege. "I'm important, pleb. Get off of my road!"

[smedly]

34 minutes ago, Centrum said:

Guess who has a 250?

 

4 hours ago, ikwiljou said:

250CC+ will do also. Their speed can easy follow the trafic on tollways here.

OK so I don't want to drag this thread into another potential topic which has been discussed at length on other TVF threads although this is about toll bans and motorbikes as the flyovers are technically toll roads.

 

In order to use a motorbike on a motorway/expressway you must be able to outperform other vehicles by a considerable margin to be safe both in cruising speed and getting there, that means not riding on the limit just to try and keep up, now you can quote speed limits etc but in reality most traffic is moving a lot faster, unless you can comfortably cruise at 140kmph then you will be in danger, you need to also consider that you might be 2-up so performance decreases substantially, that is why 600cc IMO is the very minimum. 

[CarolJadzia]

125's are allowed on UK motorways, what is not allowed is unqualified drivers and riders! While by far the majority of Thai road users have never had any formal interactive on-road training what so ever. 

 

 While there is a complete lack of focus on how to share the roads together safely, these silly  "low hanging fruit" knee jerk reactions will continue to try and fix road safety with enforcement by legislating motorcycles off the road. The "Decade of action for road safety" is pressuring in Thai government to address safety by ever more enforcement, with education programmes not even allowed to apply for funding. 

 

Just this morning I got my hopes up when I read this headline:-

Quote

Bangkok biker safety programme unveiled

 

Only when I read the article did I discover that the "Safety Programme" mentioned is an advertising campaign aimed at increasing helmet use. That is not a safety programme, that is just blind enforcement, just like the bridge ban!

http://www.worldhighways.com/sections/general/news/bangkok-biker-safety-programme-unveiled/

 

I have already submitted a proposal on a way to move this stalemate forward. Unfortunately the enforcers are the established authority. We are challenging that internationally. 

 

See:-  Hypercompliance

 

Thailand Motorcycle Road Safety Ambassadors

Edited August 3, 2016 by CarolJadzia

[denkiblue555]

56 minutes ago, smedly said:

 

OK so I don't want to drag this thread into another potential topic which has been discussed at length on other TVF threads although this is about toll bans and motorbikes as the flyovers are technically toll roads.

 

In order to use a motorbike on a motorway/expressway you must be able to outperform other vehicles by a considerable margin to be safe both in cruising speed and getting there, that means not riding on the limit just to try and keep up, now you can quote speed limits etc but in reality most traffic is moving a lot faster, unless you can comfortably cruise at 140kmph then you will be in danger, you need to also consider that you might be 2-up so performance decreases substantially, that is why 600cc IMO is the very minimum. 

 

Definitely agree with the 600cc limit.

 

The whole thing is a tough call though and I'm not trying to rehash all the other threads on this stuff, but driving on the expressways around BKK in peak hour is pretty scary and I would hate to think of the ways some people may ride in certain situations. In principle it should be a 'no brainer' yes.... but in reality I just don't know.

 

I know Malaysia has it - do they have similar traffic conditions to BKK? And Japan did it, but that was after I lived there, and drivers there are certainly more orderly...lol

 

Either way, the undeniable and quite inconvenient point is that the traffic laws should not treat a 1.8Lt. Honda Goldwing the same way they do a 110cc Honda Wave - it makes no sense.

 

[gdgbb]

7 hours ago, smedly said:

and while you're at it lets get the ban on motorbikes on tollways modified to allow 600cc + access, no other developed country in the world has such a ban, I can understand why it is in place but there are now large displacement bikes sold in Thailand and their numbers are progressively increasing ........... move with the times, tourists like to tour your country on motorbikes - why make it so difficult

 

No, let's keep all of them off the tollways, why distinguish between them based on engine capacity?  How come owners of bigger bikes think they are something special and deserve special exemptions?

[gdgbb]

7 hours ago, ikwiljou said:

250CC+ will do also. Their speed can easy follow the trafic on tollways here.

 

Not many bikes could not keep up with traffic travelling at legal speeds, speed ability isn't the issue.  Most tollways seem to have an 80kph sign illuminated most of the time anyway.

[gdgbb]

2 hours ago, smedly said:

 

OK so I don't want to drag this thread into another potential topic which has been discussed at length on other TVF threads although this is about toll bans and motorbikes as the flyovers are technically toll roads.

 

In order to use a motorbike on a motorway/expressway you must be able to outperform other vehicles by a considerable margin to be safe both in cruising speed and getting there, that means not riding on the limit just to try and keep up, now you can quote speed limits etc but in reality most traffic is moving a lot faster, unless you can comfortably cruise at 140kmph then you will be in danger, you need to also consider that you might be 2-up so performance decreases substantially, that is why 600cc IMO is the very minimum. 

 

This is not about "toll bans" (whatever they are) and flyovers are not toll roads, technically or otherwise.

 

 

"In order to use a motorbike on a motorway/expressway you must be able to outperform other vehicles by a considerable margin to be safe..."

 

Nonsense, why would that be the case?  Does every other vehicle on the tollway have to be able to outperform everything else "in order to be safe"?

 

 

"...unless you can comfortably cruise at 140kmph then you will be in danger,"

 

The nonsense keeps on coming.  Are you out of danger on normal roads just because your bike can cruise faster than the speed limit?   Ever considered that many vehicles drive slower than the rest, they just get overtaken.  You can do that on a bike, you know.

 

It's all academic anyway, thankfully you 600cc+ heroes will never be allowed on the tollways.

[gdgbb]

1 hour ago, denkiblue555 said:

 

Definitely agree with the 600cc limit.

Either way, the undeniable and quite inconvenient point is that the traffic laws should not treat a 1.8Lt. Honda Goldwing the same way they do a 110cc Honda Wave - it makes no sense.

 

 

There isn't a 600cc limit to agree with.

A motorbike is a motorbike regardless of it's engine size and they should all continue to be treated the same.

[SS1]

53 minutes ago, gdgbb said:

 

There isn't a 600cc limit to agree with.

A motorbike is a motorbike regardless of it's engine size and they should all continue to be treated the same.

 

Yes, there isn't a limit, but there definitely should be. This is what many of the bike groups are trying to push, including a "big bike licence" that would be needed for bikes over a certain displacement to learn their handling. Riding a little scooter vs. a 1000cc is not the same thing at all. 

 

The ancient law has been made when most (if not all) bikes that the locals used were around 100cc bikes, not capable of going faster than around 80km/h. This still applies to smaller under 125cc bikes today.. While some may reach a top speed of 100km/h it's not exactly safe to ride them so fast with small wheels, poor quality suspension and brakes.  It makes sense to ban slower moving vehicles from highways with 120km/speed limit, including tuk tuks, food carts etc.. it's common sense. 

But this law does not make any sense for bigger bikes, that are capable of riding safely just as fast as cars. A 600cc limit is perhaps a bit steep, but a bike that is capable of doing the allowed speed limit safely should be allowed on those roads. Perhaps 250 or 400cc minimum for highways.. Of course it isn't just the cc that matters, but perhaps the easiest way to enforce such rule. 
 

[aussiebrian]

2 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

No, let's keep all of them off the tollways, why distinguish between them based on engine capacity?  How come owners of bigger bikes think they are something special and deserve special exemptions?

 

 

2 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

2 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

This is not about "toll bans" (whatever they are) and flyovers are not toll roads, technically or otherwise.

 

 

"In order to use a motorbike on a motorway/expressway you must be able to outperform other vehicles by a considerable margin to be safe..."

 

Nonsense, why would that be the case?  Does every other vehicle on the tollway have to be able to outperform everything else "in order to be safe"?

 

 

"...unless you can comfortably cruise at 140kmph then you will be in danger,"

 

The nonsense keeps on coming.  Are you out of danger on normal roads just because your bike can cruise faster than the speed limit?   Ever considered that many vehicles drive slower than the rest, they just get overtaken.  You can do that on a bike, you know.

 

It's all academic anyway, thankfully you 600cc+ heroes will never be allowed on the tollways.

 

2 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

There isn't a 600cc limit to agree with.

A motorbike is a motorbike regardless of it's engine size and they should all continue to be treated the same.

 

Guess which TV member has never ridden a motorcycle? Why do some car drivers think they own the roads?

[aussiebrian]

5 hours ago, Centrum said:

Only poor people have motorcycles. The rich HiSos don't want to be stuck in traffic, so they have their friends in Govt build expressways, bridges and underpasses to get them through the traffic faster.

Privilege. "I'm important, pleb. Get off of my road!"

 

I am not sure why, if it is a problem since the upgrade, but when I wanted to click on "like this" I got a message  "You are not allowed to give reputation to this user." Or is there some other reason?

You are on the right track.

I had a friend who was a Director General in the Thai Government and he asked me why I ride a motorcycle when I own and can afford a car. 

[smedly]

5 hours ago, CarolJadzia said:

125's are allowed on UK motorways, what is not allowed is unqualified drivers and riders! While by far the majority of Thai road users have never had any formal interactive on-road training what so ever. 

 

 While there is a complete lack of focus on how to share the roads together safely, these silly  "low hanging fruit" knee jerk reactions will continue to try and fix road safety with enforcement by legislating motorcycles off the road. The "Decade of action for road safety" is pressuring in Thai government to address safety by ever more enforcement, with education programmes not even allowed to apply for funding. 

 

Just this morning I got my hopes up when I read this headline:-

 

Only when I read the article did I discover that the "Safety Programme" mentioned is an advertising campaign aimed at increasing helmet use. That is not a safety programme, that is just blind enforcement, just like the bridge ban!

http://www.worldhighways.com/sections/general/news/bangkok-biker-safety-programme-unveiled/

 

I have already submitted a proposal on a way to move this stalemate forward. Unfortunately the enforcers are the established authority. We are challenging that internationally. 

 

See:-  Hypercompliance

 

Thailand Motorcycle Road Safety Ambassadors

yes UK motorways do allow 125cc MB on motorways but the UK is much more disciplined than Thailands donkey derby which is why I am saying 600cc plus, I agree with everything you have said otherwise, good post 

[smedly]

2 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

This is not about "toll bans" (whatever they are) and flyovers are not toll roads, technically or otherwise.

 

 

"In order to use a motorbike on a motorway/expressway you must be able to outperform other vehicles by a considerable margin to be safe..."

 

Nonsense, why would that be the case?  Does every other vehicle on the tollway have to be able to outperform everything else "in order to be safe"?

 

 

"...unless you can comfortably cruise at 140kmph then you will be in danger,"

 

The nonsense keeps on coming.  Are you out of danger on normal roads just because your bike can cruise faster than the speed limit?   Ever considered that many vehicles drive slower than the rest, they just get overtaken.  You can do that on a bike, you know.

 

It's all academic anyway, thankfully you 600cc+ heroes will never be allowed on the tollways.

you very obviously have no clue what you are talking about and are now verging on trolling this thread with nonsense

[DefaultName]

7 hours ago, smedly said:

 

OK so I don't want to drag this thread into another potential topic which has been discussed at length on other TVF threads although this is about toll bans and motorbikes as the flyovers are technically toll roads.

 

In order to use a motorbike on a motorway/expressway you must be able to outperform other vehicles by a considerable margin to be safe both in cruising speed and getting there, that means not riding on the limit just to try and keep up, now you can quote speed limits etc but in reality most traffic is moving a lot faster, unless you can comfortably cruise at 140kmph then you will be in danger, you need to also consider that you might be 2-up so performance decreases substantially, that is why 600cc IMO is the very minimum. 

There are a lot of trucks out there that can't do 140, should they be banned from motorways too? 

[Gweiloman]

5 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

No, let's keep all of them off the tollways, why distinguish between them based on engine capacity?  How come owners of bigger bikes think they are something special and deserve special exemptions?

 

Owners of bigger bikes do not think that they are special and deserve special exemptions. 

 

Why do you think that bikers should be kept off the tollways? Speed is obviously not the issue here as most of my bikes will be faster, both in acceleration and top speed than your 4 wheeled vehicle.

 

As a biker, I physically do not take up any space on the roads and therefore do not cause any traffic jams. I pollute the environment a lot less than you do and overall, raise the productivity of the country by spending less time on the roads than you do.

 

Admit that you're trolling as otherwise, you will just end up looking like the fool you represented with your post.

[Gweiloman]

11 hours ago, Deli said:

can someone explain where this stupid law is originating from ?

 

Other posters have possibly given the real answer, but in my case, my answer would be TiT

[Gweiloman]

5 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

Not many bikes could not keep up with traffic travelling at legal speeds, speed ability isn't the issue.  Most tollways seem to have an 80kph sign illuminated most of the time anyway.

 

And your point is.....?

[Gweiloman]

5 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

This is not about "toll bans" (whatever they are) and flyovers are not toll roads, technically or otherwise.

 

 

"In order to use a motorbike on a motorway/expressway you must be able to outperform other vehicles by a considerable margin to be safe..."

 

Nonsense, why would that be the case?  Does every other vehicle on the tollway have to be able to outperform everything else "in order to be safe"?

 

 

"...unless you can comfortably cruise at 140kmph then you will be in danger,"

 

The nonsense keeps on coming.  Are you out of danger on normal roads just because your bike can cruise faster than the speed limit?   Ever considered that many vehicles drive slower than the rest, they just get overtaken.  You can do that on a bike, you know.

 

It's all academic anyway, thankfully you 600cc+ heroes will never be allowed on the tollways.

 

What's your problem about bikes on tollways? I drive a car as well and I see lots of idiotic incompetent drivers on the tollways.

[Gweiloman]

5 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

There isn't a 600cc limit to agree with.

A motorbike is a motorbike regardless of it's engine size and they should all continue to be treated the same.

 

Are you really that ignorant or just trolling?

[Gweiloman]

2 hours ago, aussiebrian said:

 

I am not sure why, if it is a problem since the upgrade, but when I wanted to click on "like this" I got a message  "You are not allowed to give reputation to this user." Or is there some other reason?

You are on the right track.

I had a friend who was a Director General in the Thai Government and he asked me why I ride a motorcycle when I own and can afford a car. 

 

Presumably, your friend is Thai so his comment is par for the course. It takes me on average an hour to get from where I live to Asoke / Sukhumvit in a car and about 20 mins on a bike. However, we both know why we ride a bike even though we own cars

[CarolJadzia]

3 hours ago, smedly said:

yes UK motorways do allow 125cc MB on motorways but the UK is much more disciplined than Thailands donkey derby which is why I am saying 600cc plus, I agree with everything you have said otherwise, good post 

 

Thank you.

 

Not sure the British are better disciplined though? better trained definitely. There is also more enforcement, but not necessarily as much as many expect. But motorcycle riders, along with other vulnerable road users,  are still over represented in the UK accident statistics as well. For many years the focus has been trying to enforce safety, but even the enforcers in the UK do a lot of rider training. Police officers run the majority of "Bike Safe" courses, one of the many post test training options. 

 

I hesitate to suggest a CC limit as the only difference with size of bike is what the rider can afford, not a higher standard of rider skill level. There are smaller bike riders who demonstrate far higher skills and experience than bigger bike riders. Yes there is a point for expressways, where speeds are higher, to impose a 120 or 250cc limit. But so much more to address with road safety than how fast vehicles go. If the only restriction was CC, you would get more, less experienced riders, buying bigger CC motorcycles just to be able to use expressways. 

 

The only reason that motorcycles are focused on is because in accidents riders will come off worse, so obviously are disproportionately represented in statistics. All driving standards in Thailand are poor because the training and testing standards are very poor. There is also serious faults in road design i.e. U-turns on major roads and motorcycle only lanes. The lack of proper real world training means all road users revert to the only rule system they know, the one they learned as pedestrians. Until these fundamental problems are addressed nothing will improve. Expect more silly rules and enforcement while the Hypercompliance option is played out by enforcers, blinded by correspondence bias, continue to fail to address the Thai Road Safety problem. 

 

We are gaining momentum with a new approach to Road Safety that moved beyond the established enforcement approach. In the UK this new thinking is gaining support under the banner "No Surprise / No Accident", we need to "recover from a command and control system"

[smedly]

and another excellent post nice to have someone well informed posting on TVF you are most welcome

 

My experience is extensive in both Thailand and the UK I've covered huge distances in both 4 wheel and two wheel, I won't elaborate further than that.

 

One big challenge when riding in Thailand is being able to dominate your position, my bike (which I have had here for over 11 years) is capable of almost 190mph so I have extreme margins to play with when it comes to being safe, I have ridden small engined bikes here and felt extremely exposed to the point were I try to avoid it and on larger roads outside towns and cities I would say extremely dangerous were you are going to have traffic moving faster than you.

 

I'm not sure what the argument is about not allowing bikes on bridges in Bangkok, I do know it is a nightmare trying to go east to west on a bike without them, most of the issues in my experience here come down to money so it wouldn't surprise me if some influential person is involved in the ferry business in Bangkok or there is some other link that isn't so obvious.

 

Motorbike riders will always be exposed to more danger than those in cars - that is just how it is, you hit something while driving a car you generally damage car - you hit something driving a motorbike....all bets are off and there really isn't much you can do about it if you are unfortunate - all you can really do is even the odds through training and good sense

[CarolJadzia]

Unfortunately the bridge ban is simple. The International pressure keeps focusing on Thailand to address it's road safety situation. We are halfway through the "Decade of action for road safety" and the current Internationally recommended approach to focus on enforcement of speed limits, Helmet and Seatbelt use is failing. While not funding any education programmes. Road users are not taught to share the roads by anybody to test standard, all post test training does is teach people vehicle handling skills and how to follow the rules. Most road users drive and ride by different rules. 

 

The main focus points for accidents are junctions, by default the junctions adjacent to bridge crosses are very busy focus points for all sorts of road users, they are therefore motorcycle accident black spots by default. 

 

Easy to just ban all motorcycles as an easy fix. It's not as it's only superficial and exacerbates the problem as all those riders still have to cross the river on a daily basis. But to people desperately trying to address a situation it is an easy target.

 

I can compare it to the UK fiasco of leg protectors, in the early 1990's the UK Gov's Transport and Road Research Laboratories  started testing leg protectors on motorcycles. They claimed it would save lower leg injuries and they did. Only when the motorcycle industry joined up with Riders Rights groups and did more tests, they proved leg protectors actually trapped riders onto bikes and caused more head injuries instead. 

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/esv/esv16/98s10o13.pdf

 

Governments around the world still focus on speed limits, lower the limit and enforce speed limits to make the roads safer right? Actually it's wrong. Accidents happen in congested areas where there are lots of close call interactions, not the right conditions for speeding vehicles. Speeders are found on open stretches of road. Clear open roads where there are few pedestrians and all the vehicles are travelling in the same direction with limited junctions, are the safest of world roads. It is the interactions that cause the problems, speed is only one factor in a far bigger picture. But it's easy, lazy and good to make money on through speed enforcement. 

 

Motorcycle only lanes, motorcycle "keep left" rules, motorcycles banned from bridges, tunnels and expressways,  clamp downs on modified motorcycles and street racing groups. All standard enforcement approaches that have only had limited use elsewhere and all focus on low hanging fruit. But TiT, expect more of the same. 

[denkiblue555]

10 hours ago, gdgbb said:

 

There isn't a 600cc limit to agree with.

A motorbike is a motorbike regardless of it's engine size and they should all continue to be treated the same.

 

I agreed with the idea of a 600cc limit - you may need to reread the previous posts??

 

The limit is not about being 'able' to achieve an acceptable speed on an expressway as much as it is about being 'safe' at that speed. A Honda CBR600RR is a very safe vehicle at 140kph - a Honda Wave, or 150cc whatever.... even a 250 - 400cc is not really 'safe' at that speed. ie. brakes, suspension - ability to be designed to manage emergency movements at those speeds etc.

 

Do you really think traffic laws should treat a Nissan March should be treated under traffic laws the same way as a 25t + truck??

(I'll give you a hint - they don't  )

 

I look forward to more of your logic.