Surinder Singh Route

[JD Butler]

Hi

 

Can anyone offer any possible countries to use for the Surinder Singh Route into UK for Thai wife.

 

It seems Spain are proving to be difficult over excepting Thai Marriage Certificate

 

I keep hitting brick walls over this and my head is hurting can anyone help PLEASE...

[sas_cars]

lol. surinder singh route gonna be obsolete isn't it? thanks to Brexit

[Richard W]

On 08/08/2016 at 11:08 AM, sas_cars said:

lol. surinder singh route gonna be obsolete isn't it? thanks to Brexit

There's a lot of suspicion that we won't actually exit the EEA or will end up like Switzerland currently is.  (No-one knows how Switzerland will end up.)  The EFTA court has decided that not just Surinder Singh, but even Eind, applies to Norway.  Besides, if the default exit time applies, we won't be out of the EU until 2019.

 

Family permits for Ireland are taking an inordinate time to issue, at least, if Surinder Singh is suspected.

[Trevor1809]

Since the Government wants to get rid of SS then bet you life they will negotiate this out of any future freedom of movement regulations. If your rights as an EU citizen are being abused why not contact your MP or MEP.

Strange how freedom of movement appears to only favour other EU nationals coming to the UK.

[bobrussell]

Surinder Singh is being misused to by pass UK law. I can see absolutely no reason why it should continue within the EU at all.

If another European country has more relaxed rules then the option is to move there and live. It should not be possible for one group to avoid restrictions that others have to live with. It is called fairness!

There are plenty of other European nations that are unhappy having their laws bypassed  by EU law.

If people living in the UK do not like the laws then they have a vote that can influence policy. It has been made very clear by Brexit that a lot of people are unhappy with the present state of affairs. Relaxing immigration law is politically unpopular!

 

 

[Donutz]

@OP: Spain shouldn't be too hard if you get the legalisation stamp fro the UK embassy on your marriage certificate (which as you know the Spanish should not be asking for but they seem rather stubborn and and refuse to  legalize the document themselves which they are perfectly capable of and allows them to verify that your marriage is both legal and genuine -which is all they should check for in regards of your marriage).

 

Countries like the Netherlands, Germany and such are known to apply EU legislation properly even though NL wishes to discourage the SS/EU route but we know that this is no excuse not to abide the EU legislation. But if those countries are too far north... then I can't say much more as I don't know if the French or Italians would do a proper job aswell.

 

@Bob: The SS/EU route can be misused if you do it to bypass national legislation (move from your country to an other, move back after 3 months). But it's not bypassing per definition. The irony is that back in the day (90's?) it was generally very easy for a national of say the UK, Germany, NL etc. to get the spouse to immigrate. You'd almost get citizenship on arrival or atleast residency status without much fuss or requirements. The member states then agreed that there had to be rules to Ensure that if a EU citizen moved to an other nation they would not be given too much trouble. So they agreed upon some freedom of movement rules, which were less favourable then national legislation than found each memberstate, but atleast it gave some protection/rights. At the time it must have been a nice acceptable compromise (all members need to give and take a bit when it comes to Mutual agreements). But when we entered the new century many nations made immigration stricter and stricter, and in countries like the UK and NL laws for citizens with a non EU spouse became more strict then what Freedom of Movement dictated. This in turn created the oppertunity for miss-use abd the SS/EU route became more and more popular. If anything blame the general public who to this very day wish to be though and thougher on immigration. That your avarage voter does not know the difference between say asylum seekers or regular (native and unnative) British citizens with foreign spouses doesn't exactly help. The voter seems to think "immigration = asylum seekers who aren't all real refugees and a bunch of muslims with import brides from backwards areas, crack down on it!" .  IMHO I don't find the current UK or NL immigration and integration laws fair at all. I see no harm in re-uniting families aslong as those families are not a burden to the state/public and live normal lives. That is basically also what the EU regulations dictate but for most voters that is not enough, they want the borders closed.  But we're kinda moving away from the actual topic at hand here...

[bobrussell]

The rules are only fair if they apply equally to all. EU law is overriding national law in these cases.

I am not particularly claiming that the UK laws are right. I don't think they are particularly well balanced as they take no account of income over expenditure.

I am also not bothered what ethnic groups are involved in by passing the UK law by taking advantage of SS. I don't believe anyone should be able to do this.

SS families count in the immigration statistics therefore where a target is given, they are likely to make it even more difficult for those going by the rules.

Brexit has indicated that a large number of British residents are pretty uninformed regarding the realities of immigration.

As to the original post, there are companies offering packages that take advantage of SS in the most cynical manner possible. Good that the Irish authorities are aware of the abuse!

If you are going to move to the UK via SS then it should be done as the rule intended ie. someone has established family life etc in another EU country.

If people don't like the law then change it by democratic means. Be prepared to be in a minority!

[Atkinsos]

Bit late on this I know but it may be of help.

We started this route & chose France in 2015. After almost 6yrs in Thailand, a child of 4, no job & no prospect of one I stressed no end about making the move. Thanks to people on TV who helped tremendously it was very easy. The only issue for us was proving a 3yr relationship in Thailand as we arent married. If you are married proving this isnt necessary. 

For France the main thing is your wife must enter on a 90day Family visit visa not a tourist visa & you must start a business,'Auto Entrepreneur'. This gives you a tax number & a health card for you & your family. This cost 100Euro for an accountant to setup. (Its important to know you dont have to actually work at this, I personally set it up as an 'English teacher'. Each quarter I just declare 0 income & 0 tax), there seems to be so far no issue but im sure there must be a limit? Having the tax number & Health Card 'Carte Vitale' are all they are interested in when applying to stay under Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of entry and stay.

We did this last November & within 4 weeks or so my better half received a 5 year residence work visa, (carte d'sejour). She was over the moon .... we'd made it! 2 weeks later she had a job in the supermarket where a few other Thai girls work. We dont speak a word of French. Our little one has started at the local school & will soon be speaking French (I hope as we need a translator!). Because things are going so well here we have decided to stay rather than continue on the SS route but the option is still open for 2 more years we think.

For more details if you choose France as the door feel free to PM me.

[7by7]

51 minutes ago, Atkinsos said:

& you must start a business,'Auto Entrepreneur'

Or be employed.

 

52 minutes ago, Atkinsos said:

Because things are going so well here we have decided to stay rather than continue on the SS route but the option is still open for 2 more years we think.

There is no maximum time limit on exercising SS in order to accompany an EEA national family member when they return to their home country. Qualifying non EEA national family members can do so no matter how long they and their EEA national family member have been living in their host country; as long as they have been living there long enough to have 'established the centre of their life' there.

 

Except, of course, if you're British for Brexit! What effect that will have we will have to wait and see. But as one of the major reasons for the Brexit victory was immigration, I can't see the UK remaining in the Freedom of Movement Directive; to do so would be political suicide!

 

[howerde]

It is going to be interesting, as should Britain remove the right of 'freedom of movement' then that would affect britains simply moving to Europe as they currently benefit from freedom of movement themselves, wonder what will happen to all those expats in Spain, will the be allowed to carry on living there and /or recieve free medical treatment, Britain can't have it both ways,  but agree it was immigration that was the main reason for the exit vote

[howerde]

As to the origanl question,  Ireland they speak English  or any eu country, no point trying to second guess the future

[Atkinsos]

Apparently there are 1.5 mill Brits living in Europe. It is more than likely a solution will be found to avoid all returning to the UK. The triggering of article 50 next March does nothing to change the freedom of movement directive that I & others Brits with Thai partners are using to circumnavigate current UK immigration requirements. This will only happen after Brexit actually occurs, apparently within 2yrs of the official trigger date. Regardless of whether Brits in Europe will continue to enjoy visa free living & possibly health benefits etc I am sure the SS loophole that allows us with Thai partners & children to 1st move to Europe & then the UK will most surely be closed & that is what I presume concerns most British on this forum.

[howerde]

27 minutes ago, Atkinsos said:

Apparently there are 1.5 mill Brits living in Europe. It is more than likely a solution will be found to avoid all returning to the UK. The triggering of article 50 next March does nothing to change the freedom of movement directive that I & others Brits with Thai partners are using to circumnavigate current UK immigration requirements. This will only happen after Brexit actually occurs, apparently within 2yrs of the official trigger date. Regardless of whether Brits in Europe will continue to enjoy visa free living & possibly health benefits etc I am sure the SS loophole that allows us with Thai partners & children to 1st move to Europe & then the UK will most surely be closed & that is

[howerde]

Indeed i would imagine the SS route would be top of the list and is just not wives and children who can benifit it also extends to other family members, as british immigration have made it extremly hard for Brits to bring say elderly parents from abroad.

Edited October 6, 2016 by howerde

[7by7]

20 hours ago, howerde said:

It is going to be interesting, as should Britain remove the right of 'freedom of movement' then that would affect britains simply moving to Europe as they currently benefit from freedom of movement themselves, wonder what will happen to all those expats in Spain, will the be allowed to carry on living there and /or recieve free medical treatment, Britain can't have it both ways,  but agree it was immigration that was the main reason for the exit vote

 

It's not a matter of Britain removing the right of freedom of movement. It's a question of whether or not the UK continues to remain under the directive after Brexit; either through remaining a member of the EEA or with an agreement similar to Switzerland.

 

Of course, were that to happen then as well as British citizens continuing to enjoy the benefits of the directive in the EEA and Switzerland,  EEA and Swiss nationals would continue to enjoy those rights in the UK.

 

If the UK leaves the directive completely, I doubt very much that EEA and Swiss nationals currently living in the UK and British nationals currently living in another EEA state or Switzerland will suddenly find that they have to go home. But rights such as Surinder Singh may no longer be available to non EEA national family members of British nationals living together in an EEA state or Switzerland.

 

That means, for example, a Thai living with their British citizen spouse in Spain will need to obtain, and pay for, the appropriate UK visa to enter the UK; whether returning to live or just for a visit.

 

Not pointing the finger at anyone here, of course, but conversations with and reading posts on TV and elsewhere from Brexiteers lead me to believe that they want to continue to enjoy the benefits of EU membership without the responsibilities; I can't see the other 27 agreeing to that!

Edited October 7, 2016 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

There may be 1.5million British living in the EU but there a 3.3 million EU nationals living in the UK. I cannot see how that can be sustainable and it is a great shame that other EU nations did not understand the impact that would have on voters.

It has been made pretty clear that the British government does not expect EU nationals to upsticks and go. Obviously they are not committing to anything until agreement has been reached between governments.

SS has to be one of the governments targets because it has been misused/abused in the opinion of the Home Office.

I suspect for the majority of EU nationals it will be a case of applying for a residence permit. This is in line with many EU countries where registering is a requirement.

Looks like it is going to be a hard Brexit so SS is likely to be one of the targets.

 

[Mister Fixit]

On 10/6/2016 at 9:16 PM, howerde said:

As to the origanl question,  Ireland they speak English  or any eu country, no point trying to second guess the future

 

 

I looked into this a year or so back and decided that Ireland was the best bet for me, and I suspect most British people on here. I found an excellent thread (I am sure it was on TV but I can't find it now) of a chap who did the Ireland route successfully.  He started a business as a web designer, did hardly any work IIRC, and it worked for him.  Other posters here may recall it, or can search for it.

 

I decided to not to return in the end, but we did go to Ireland for 10 days for a holiday and to suss out if it would be worthwhile if we decided on the SS route.  

 

I thought Ireland the best place to go to, despite being half-Dutch, (but don't speak it much). 

I do speak decent-ish French, but that would mean  that my wife would have to learn another language, either Dutch or French depending on the way we went about it.  In Ireland, she could get by quite well. 

 

All in all, for UK citizens bringing a Thai wife over to ultimately settle in the UK, I thought Ireland was the best bet for the SS route. The language is the same, the culture near enough, the people are extremely friendly and it's very easy to take the ferry to Liverpool if you've bought a car in Ireland.  

 

 

Edited October 10, 2016 by Mister Fixit

[Pcs23]

I am from Northern Ireland and married here with a 3 month old son. I really want to bring all back home next year. My sons british PP is applied for already.

 Does anyone know can my wife apply for an Irish visa off the back of being married to me who has a British Passport -so she would apply as spouse of EEA citizen?? Is this possible ?

Also to meet the requirements of SS what visa would my wife need to be on in, lets say, Ireland. Is a tourist visa acceptable? or does she have to be on another type of visa??

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated guys

[phuket Mike]

Reply to the original post Malta is currently being used for SS Route, relatively low cost of living, most people speak English. There are a lot of Facebook groups dedicated to SS.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Pcs23 said:

I am from Northern Ireland and married here with a 3 month old son. I really want to bring all back home next year. My sons british PP is applied for already.

 Does anyone know can my wife apply for an Irish visa off the back of being married to me who has a British Passport -so she would apply as spouse of EEA citizen?? Is this possible ?

Also to meet the requirements of SS what visa would my wife need to be on in, lets say, Ireland. Is a tourist visa acceptable? or does she have to be on another type of visa??

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated guys

If you are living and exercising a treaty in the Republic, or move to the Republic in order to exercise a treaty right then she could join you in the Republic using the EEA regulations.

 

Family members of EU/EEA/Swiss citizens seeking to reply on Directive 2004/38/EC (Free Movement Directive) – type of visa for which you should apply

Quote

You can apply for a single journey short-stay C visa which will permit you to enter and reside in the State for up to 3 months.

In the event that you wish to remain in the State for more than 3 months as a family member of an EU citizen exercising their free movement rights, you must apply (when in the State) for a Residence Card of a family member of a Union citizen. Information about how to apply is available here.

 

In order to then use Surinder Singh to move together to the UK you must have been working, employed or self employed, in the Republic and have transferred the centre of your life there. Your wife being in the Republic with a tourist visa would not satisfy the 'centre of life' test as, obviously, a tourist is not a resident.

Apply for an EEA family permit; 6. Surinder Singh

Caseworker guidance for applications under the Surinder Singh route from January 2014

 

Two points. though.

 

1) Non EEA national family members cannot use the Directive to enter nor live in a member state if their EEA national family member is a citizen of that state; unless Surinder Singh applies. So if you have dual Irish/British citizenship your wife cannot use the directive to enter nor live in the Republic and so cannot then use Surinder Singh to enter and live in the UK.

 

2) What effect Brexit will have on this, we do not know. Worst case scenario is that the UK withdraws from the Directive and so it, and of course Surinder Singh, will no longer be useable by British citizens and their non EEA national family.

[Pcs23]

Thanks for the info 7by7.

So as I do have dual citizenship the SS route is not an option for me.

Can I then apply for a visa for my wife to live in ireland with me on the basis that she is married to an EU citizen ( me being British and not having an address in the republic of Ireland as of yet)???? any ideas?

[honda99]

3 hours ago, Pcs23 said:

I am from Northern Ireland and married here with a 3 month old son. I really want to bring all back home next year. My sons british PP is applied for already.

 Does anyone know can my wife apply for an Irish visa off the back of being married to me who has a British Passport -so she would apply as spouse of EEA citizen?? Is this possible ?

Also to meet the requirements of SS what visa would my wife need to be on in, lets say, Ireland. Is a tourist visa acceptable? or does she have to be on another type of visa??

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated guys

 

if you give up your british citizenship and apply for a irish passport as you being from northern ireland you are entitled to do. you should be able to apply for ss by staying in northern ireland on an irish passport. not 100% but i think this would work!

[Tony M]

You might like to see the latest "guidance" to ECO's on Surinder Singh, published a couple of weeks ago.

 

 

 

 

Family-members-of-British-citizens-_v1_0.pdf

[Richard W]

On 06/10/2016 at 7:02 PM, Atkinsos said:

I am sure the SS loophole that allows us with Thai partners & children to 1st move to Europe & then the UK will most surely be closed & that is what I presume concerns most British on this forum.

Indeed.  Official guidance now explicitly prevents 'extended family members', like your partner, from benefiting under the SS regulations.  See Tony M's link for details.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Richard W
Lost cursor while editing.

[macahoom]

13 hours ago, honda99 said:

 

if you give up your british citizenship and apply for a irish passport as you being from northern ireland you are entitled to do. you should be able to apply for ss by staying in northern ireland on an irish passport. not 100% but i think this would work!

 

"if you give up your british citizenship and apply for a irish passport as you being from northern ireland you are entitled to do."

 

I'm not too sure if you've got your facts right here.

 

To be entitled to apply for an Irish passport requires considerably more than just “being from Northern Ireland”.

[Pcs23]

Thanks for all the input so far every one- I am already an Irish passport holder macahoom.... never lived in the republic and was entitled to it simply because I am from Northern Ireland. 

If I have dual citizenship does that mean I cannot use the SS route? I am getting different info about this point.

 

 

[Pcs23]

Thanks for all the input so far every one- I am already an Irish passport holder macahoom.... never lived in the republic and was entitled to it simply because I am from Northern Ireland. 

If I have dual citizenship does that mean I cannot use the SS route? I am getting different info about this point.

 

 

[jpinx]

It appears that the main requirement is that the "centre of your life" is in the country to which you wish to "import" your wife.  7by7 knows lots more about this. 

Edited December 12, 2016 by jpinx

[7by7]

9 hours ago, Pcs23 said:

Thanks for all the input so far every one- I am already an Irish passport holder macahoom.... never lived in the republic and was entitled to it simply because I am from Northern Ireland. 

If I have dual citizenship does that mean I cannot use the SS route? I am getting different info about this point.

 

Basically, to move to the RoI and have your wife join you using the freedom of movement directive and then move to the UK using Surinder Singh you must have been exercising your freedom of movement rights in the RoI.

 

But you cannot use your British nationality to live in the RoI under the directive because you are also an Irish citizen and so have the right to live there anyway. You also cannot use your Irish nationality and the directive to live in the UK as you are also a British citizen and so have the right to live there anyway.

 

As your wife's freedom of movement rights under the directive are totally dependent upon yours, the same applies to her.

 

Surinder Singh for Dual British and Irish nationals was a freedom of information request on this subject. From the Home Office's reply:-

Quote

The UK interprets this (McCarthy) judgment to mean that a dual British/Irish citizen cannot rely on their Irish citizenship to exercise free movement rights in the UK (and so bring in family members under EU law). Similarly, the same person cannot rely on their British citizenship to exercise free movement rights in Ireland. In both situations, the person would be residing in a Member State of which they are a national and in which they enjoy an unconditional right to reside. Consequently, a dual British/Irish citizen moving from Ireland to the UK would not be able to be able to invoke the judgment in Surinder Singh in order to engage family reunification rights, because their residence in Ireland would not have been covered by the Free Movement Directive.

 

There is, of course, nothing to prevent a British/Irish citizen from exercising their free movement rights in a Member State of which they are not a national and relying on Surinder Singh on their return to the UK (or Ireland, as the case may be).

Click here for the judgement in full.

 

What effect renouncing one or other of your nationalities would have on this, I don't know. I suspect that doing so means you could find yourself tied up in appeals via the courts all the way to the European Court of Justice for the next few years.

[mgb]

A few people with dual citizenship in NI did it already and renounced the british citizenship.
The problem is it can take 9 to 12 month to get rid of the british citizenship.