"what Thaksin Had Done Wrong"

[rken]

I have read many of posters reactions and only ask this...

Do you relly mean or think, it will be westernized by kicking Mr. Thaksin out?

Asia will still be the most corrupted part of the world - after Africa, what ever we may think, do or live by.

Wait, China will open soon, and I fear that it will consume us all...

Um, were we talking about westernization? I thought we were talking about a different concept, Democracy?

About Taksin being the 'best thing'... to test any hypothesis you need a 'control'... In case of country leaders, this is impossible because you would need two Thailands. Thailand 1 has Taksin for a leader and Thailand 2 has a leader less motivated by personal gain and more motivated to the improvement of his country's situation. After a few years you take measurements and see which Thailand has performed best. Logic would indicate that Thailand 2 would do better. In reality, given that we cannot conduct this experiment, we can only guess what the situation would be with a different leader in power, and also only guess whether the improvements in Thailand over the last few years are *because* of Taksin or mostly would have happened anyway.

Sportrider

If you make decisions based on what you dont't want. You end up getting what you dont want. What is it that U want. Can you go beyond your fear.

[falux]

I'm impressed.

It seems that a third of the posters here seem to defend ######sin, and the most commonly used argument is: others do it, too.

You're real smart guys, I must admit. I'll now rape your little sister, but don't take it personally, others do it, too.

Thaksin severely abused his power, resulting in death and corruption, any attempt to play it down can only be made by brainwashed morons.

[cclub75]

I'm impressed.

It seems that a third of the posters here seem to defend ######sin, and the most commonly used argument is: others do it, too.

I'm impressed too.

Even amazed.

I don't especially appreciate the work of the junta, nor the government (which is very weak), but the case against Thaksin is indeed astonishing.

CNS should start prosecution right away. Present proofs in court, call witnesses etc.

I mean even with 10 % of their white paper, the picture is overwhelming.

However, I seriously doubt that they will achieve something on that ground, because they look really like a bunch of amateurs without any clue of what's going on around them.

But that's another story. I still hope that the bastard will be nailed. Properly. And definitly.

[nikster]

OK, that's a long list of wrondoing by anyone standard but a fair bit of it is business as usual as far as some of his predecessors are concerned and it was widely accepted by just everybody. I guess he went a step (or a few) too far. That probably mean that corruption has its limit in LOS. That's the good news.

On corruption charges: Thaksin was probably just a lot more ruthless and efficient in sqeezing the state for money. No wonder since he had a handful of huge companies even before he was elected, and he was very good / shameless at exploiting government power to advance his own business interests. In this, he was not different from other very corrupt governments before him - he just did it on a much grander scale. Where others took millions, he took billions.

The human rights violations on the other hand are completely inexcusable - they are more in line with 3rd world dictatorships. We all knew this was happening at the time, and there was no excuse or remorse for it - official line was "drug suspects had it coming". Same goes for a lot of things that happened in the south.

At this point though it's not clear whether this list is a revenge against the ousted leader or whether the CNR is serious about tackling corruption. Thaksin was not alone - there were hundreds or even thousands of small-time profiteers in this as well...

[Pakboong]

I'm quite sure no stone was left unturned in this investigation. What seems to have come out of this massive effort was what could be deemed, business as usual in Thailand.

There was much to be disliked about this guy. His main opponents were what I call urban professionals. Their main complaint was that they were less than 20% of the population but were paying as much as 90% of the taxes to sustain the countries infastructure. Of course these numbers are approximate but the inferences are quite real. Thaksin acted pretty much like a Robin Hood in this matter. He took tax money and gave it to the poor. Sure he did it to get votes, he's a polititian and he is responsible to his party for votes for all TRT candidates for public office.

I have felt that the recent upheaval with both ousted Thaksin and made the life of the Ex Pat quite difficult had nothing to do with TRT but every thing to do with the new regime. All came at the end or immediately after the Coup. None of it has been reversed suggesting that I am correct on this matter. TRT officials trying to save their jobs when the end was near pushed to have some laws enforced. Under TRT, the the enforcment had been relaxed. Largly because the money foreigners brought into the country made it's way to the pockets of the poor. Urban professionals all were totally aware of the opposition's desires to return control of Thailand to what it was 30 years ago. why would the poor be upset about selling the Shin Corp with no taxes paid. The poor pay next to no taxes they don't care what taxes are not paid.

He seemed to have an understand of macro economics. The poor 80% has to control at least 20% of the resources. The urban professional would make that 10% of less if given a chance. Cival Revoloution is often a result of this balance when it dips too low for the poor.

He was keen on keeping the baht low against foreign currencies. The new regime seems to have no such interest. The exports under Thaksin fared much better when the baht was lower.

I know this view will never be popular but it needs to be said.

[anon467367354]

Does everything on this list give a reason to have a coup? Who knows and who cares? The coup was to stop a coup which was in the 11th hour planned by Toxin. Sondhi did what he had to do when he had to do it. It had nothing to do with Toxin's stealing from the people, it was about the people losing The Kingdom!

[falux]

Uh, yes. Of course. Whatever pills you take, please stop taking them.

[OzMan_Bkk]

History [eventually] will show that the coup was actually a Godsend for ex-PM Thaksin. Hise much heralded B30 health scheme was sending hospitals into bankrupcy because it was grossly underfunded. This is one area the new government needs to address, as they are now offering free medical. It will take a lot of thought to turn things around.

Ex-PM Thaksin had systematically infiltrated almost every branch of the civil service with family and cronies. There was a real danger that within a year he could have dismissed the government and set himself up as CEO of Thailand for life. His one fatal mistake ? He tried to meddle with the armed forces promotions list to put his mates in place. The minute he tried it the writing was on the wall. Make no mistake about it. If that promotions list had been pushed through there would be no Thai government today and farang would be matched onto aircraft and out of the country with every thing they own here confiscated.

I, for one, am not sorry to see him ousted. The new government has a huge task to rebuilt the institutions so that they serve WE THE PEOPLE as it should be in a true democracy. You will never stop cronyism and "jobs for the boys". It isn't something invented by the Thais remember. They learned from the best, the west. What is hoped is that enough checks and balances are restored to make all institutions accountable to WE THE PEOPLE. I sincerely hope that is achieved.

[Blue Lover]

Anymore white paper reports on the past administrations for us to ponder on and compare who comes out the best in their performance....?????

[ilyushin]

Good news. They need to investigate the tobacco monopoly, Shin Corp, bombings, offenses against HRH and military spending. Also the 11 MOUs signed with PROC. Central Budget allocations, etc... Some mentioned, but need to be clearer. The killings in the south, Lawyer Somchai, drug war and other missing folks. The MOF non repayment of Barter Trade goods is a big deal, I estimate around Baht 200 billion missing.

They need to get these charges to stick. He is waiting for the opportunity to return to Thailand. When he returns, he needs to be met by a security detail and taken into custody immediately for charges all at once.

If they don't move soon the people will loose hope and reject the current government and Thaksin will buy his way back into power.

What a mess?

[Johpa]

There was much to be disliked about this guy. His main opponents were what I call urban professionals. Their main complaint was that they were less than 20% of the population but were paying as much as 90% of the taxes to sustain the countries infastructure. Of course these numbers are approximate but the inferences are quite real. Thaksin acted pretty much like a Robin Hood in this matter. He took tax money and gave it to the poor. Sure he did it to get votes, he's a polititian and he is responsible to his party for votes for all TRT candidates for public office.

Your perceptions of the tax base are the arguments that unite Sondhi Limthongkul's polititcal movement, blame the poor along with Taksin. But often forgotten is that over the past many decades, the poor paid taxes indirectly, they are too freakin poor to pay taxes monetarily, by being paid slightly lower than market prices for agricultural products. And trust me, they got very little in return out of it.

Sondhi is correct that the new middle class pays a disproportionate amount of the total tax base. The real elite pays too little, if any, tax. Taksin is by no means alone in avoiding taxes, only the amounts were far greater than other members of the elite were able to get away without paying taxes upon. And nobody talks about the large amount of capital that the elite moves offshore. But Sondhi and his middle class movement (and note Sondhi Limthongkul, a member of the Bangkok elite, is playing the middle class just as Taksin played the poor) are (surprise, surpise!) attacking the poor instead of attacking the elite. Listening to Sondhi talk recently I thought he was playing rather close to an ethnic argument only thinly veiled by class as he kept making disparaging remarks about poor "Isaan farmers".

Bottom line, same-same.

Go back and listen to the interview I recently posted a link to. Handley makes a good point that it is all posturing by various factions of the elite in anticipation of the doggie doo doo hitting the fan in the near future. The coup had nothing to do with the killings or human rights violations, or really even the financial events, as these are things that have absolutely no importance to the main players and their factions. But they sure do, to my amusement, fire up many of you neo-sahib type ex-pats.

[Jeff1]

Im glad that we all got a chance to get this off of our chests. Good to vent eh?

Im also happy to see that everything is better now.

[falux]

There was much to be disliked about this guy. His main opponents were what I call urban professionals. Their main complaint was that they were less than 20% of the population but were paying as much as 90% of the taxes to sustain the countries infastructure. Of course these numbers are approximate but the inferences are quite real. Thaksin acted pretty much like a Robin Hood in this matter. He took tax money and gave it to the poor. Sure he did it to get votes, he's a polititian and he is responsible to his party for votes for all TRT candidates for public office.

Your perceptions of the tax base are the arguments that unite Sondhi Limthongkul's polititcal movement, blame the poor along with Taksin. But often forgotten is that over the past many decades, the poor paid taxes indirectly, they are too freakin poor to pay taxes monetarily, by being paid slightly lower than market prices for agricultural products. And trust me, they got very little in return out of it.

Sondhi is correct that the new middle class pays a disproportionate amount of the total tax base. The real elite pays too little, if any, tax. Taksin is by no means alone in avoiding taxes, only the amounts were far greater than other members of the elite were able to get away without paying taxes upon. And nobody talks about the large amount of capital that the elite moves offshore. But Sondhi and his middle class movement (and note Sondhi Limthongkul, a member of the Bangkok elite, is playing the middle class just as Taksin played the poor) are (surprise, surpise!) attacking the poor instead of attacking the elite. Listening to Sondhi talk recently I thought he was playing rather close to an ethnic argument only thinly veiled by class as he kept making disparaging remarks about poor "Isaan farmers".

Bottom line, same-same.

Go back and listen to the interview I recently posted a link to. Handley makes a good point that it is all posturing by various factions of the elite in anticipation of the doggie doo doo hitting the fan in the near future. The coup had nothing to do with the killings or human rights violations, or really even the financial events, as these are things that have absolutely no importance to the main players and their factions. But they sure do, to my amusement, fire up many of you neo-sahib type ex-pats.

Why don't you enlighten us with the real reasons, post-effendi?

[JacknDanny]

Thaksin acted pretty much like a Robin Hood in this matter. He took tax money and gave it to the poor.

Lets just forget about the BILLIONS of baht that he and the rest of his family syphoned away!!!

F*****G crook. I hope he gets his just reward

[brahmburgers]

In sum, he instilled the concept that, "it's ok to lie and cheat to achieve wealth and power." This is particularly sad regarding impressionable young Thais. In a country already consumed by adulation for wealth - he became the staunchest booster of insatiable craving for it - and unabashedly cheated in every way possible to achieve it.

[gazzz]

Do we really have to read anymore thaksin news its so bloody boring almost every thread on the news clippings is about this box headed <deleted> say what he has and hasnt done we all know hes currupt and dodgy lets hear about other news like current events !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kangeroo]

He had a very good education in the west, im sure he looked at how much people there had so he thought go home and get some for myself .

[Virgil]

Just another day in politics, examples can be seen in almost every country.

I am sure if the ex-Premier of Queensland "Sir" Joh had a list like this compiled, it would be longer and uglier.

Not that I am a Taxin or anything supporter, rather an observer.

Here, here!! Taksin list of wrongdoings is lame. If he's a bad guy, he's pretty bad at it. Try comparing him to the works of other world leaders such as Thatcher, Reagan, Saddam, ... I could go on. In true Thai tradition Taksin is a "half-baked-bad-ass"!

Virgil, Out!

[maccaroni man]

It is high time that Thailand and it's people stop being the victim and act, and they have started to do just that.

too many perks for victims.........money, money, money for poor developing country?! Dont know if they will ever be motivated to be independent.

[BikeThailand]

How about the positive impacts?

I have one....

We no longer have to put up with bright lights coming from gas stations after 10pm

Wow, I never imagined I would find someone that agrees with the closing of gas stations at 10 PM. I thought that was one of the most absurd energy saving ideas I have ever heard of. I come from a rather "developed country" and I would never imagine leaving people who need to travel at night stranded in the middle of nowhere and having to curl up in their compact car (to save gas) on the side of the highway waiting for the gas station to open. I also think that it probably doesn't help daytime traffic any if people can only drive during the day. Sure, we can plan ahead but what about long drives? Closing local innercity gas stations may be ok, but the ones on desolate highways should have some options. The other night I came home from Sydney just after midnight and realized that my gas was low and it was after 10PM. Fortunately I was able to communicate enough with a motorcycle taxi to cyphen some gas from his bike into my car so that I could get home. Of course he charged me 100 baht a liter.

I know they had good intentions, but the 7-elevens that sold the gas are still open and extremely lit up. The only difference is that they say no to you if you ask for gas. Flourescent lights don't use much energy anyway. Of course this wasn't even an issue before I had to buy a car for my work.

On the other hand, I would suggest that they stop making doors that lock open for all the office buildings and shopping malls throughout the country. It is amazing to me that you can walk past an office building or shopping mall and feel the air-condition from 30 feet away because someone pushed the door open far enough to have it stay open.

Happy to meet someone who thinks differently on the subject. Contrast is always interesting.

Cheers,

Bikethailand

[hammered]

While it will undeniably be a very positive move if an ex-minister or PM is tried for corruption, and it is obviously no defence that others have done, will do it, we should not forget that there other issues being played out right now. This is not all about Mr.Thaksin although for now it suits both sides that this meme continues. That way Mr. Thaksin's rather large ego is massaged and his band of mid-ranking supporters can remain confident. For the current government it keeps other issues out of the limelight. Im sure many of us have encountered the "do you really know what it is all about?" question from Thai acquaintances when the subject of the coup is raised.

By the way, what is interesting about the list is not what is on it, which even according to my TRT contact is true, but what is not on it.

[Buckwheat]

How about the positive impacts?

I have one....

We no longer have to put up with bright lights coming from gas stations after 10pm

Wow, I never imagined I would find someone that agrees with the closing of gas stations at 10 PM. I thought that was one of the most absurd energy saving ideas I have ever heard of. I come from a rather "developed country" and I would never imagine leaving people who need to travel at night stranded in the middle of nowhere and having to curl up in their compact car (to save gas) on the side of the highway waiting for the gas station to open. I also think that it probably doesn't help daytime traffic any if people can only drive during the day. Sure, we can plan ahead but what about long drives? Closing local innercity gas stations may be ok, but the ones on desolate highways should have some options. The other night I came home from Sydney just after midnight and realized that my gas was low and it was after 10PM. Fortunately I was able to communicate enough with a motorcycle taxi to cyphen some gas from his bike into my car so that I could get home. Of course he charged me 100 baht a liter.

I know they had good intentions, but the 7-elevens that sold the gas are still open and extremely lit up. The only difference is that they say no to you if you ask for gas. Flourescent lights don't use much energy anyway. Of course this wasn't even an issue before I had to buy a car for my work.

On the other hand, I would suggest that they stop making doors that lock open for all the office buildings and shopping malls throughout the country. It is amazing to me that you can walk past an office building or shopping mall and feel the air-condition from 30 feet away because someone pushed the door open far enough to have it stay open.

Happy to meet someone who thinks differently on the subject. Contrast is always interesting.

Cheers,

Bikethailand

Err...

My initial posting was a "vain attempt" at humor.

I think the closings were ridiculous, as were the removals of the gov't subsidies.

In closing, when my father-in-law died we had to bolt out of here at midnight...I too had to pay through the nose for gas...after 10pm

[Beachedwhale]

Just another day in politics, examples can be seen in almost every country.

I am sure if the ex-Premier of Queensland "Sir" Joh had a list like this compiled, it would be longer and uglier.

Sorry, slightly off topic .. but

Sir Joh was New Zealands greatest export according to an ex prime minister and his move from NZ to Australia increased the average IQ of both countries ... do you think this could also be said about Mr T?

[blam]

The '"White Paper" looks like something we call a 'shortlist'.

If anyone living in Chiang Mai during the first four years of Thaksin's tenure will tell you:

1. Wifie ran the show.

2. The wifie's relations and his own cousins were the major problem.

3. The huge local CM construction contracts were bought and paid for for Thaksin family profit..

4. Most of the extrajudicial murder victims in CM were close friends with local policemen.

5. The ThaiSAT IV deals with China were politically based for Thaksin profit.

6. The natural gas deals with Myanmar were politically based for Thaksin profit.

7. The Internet CAT manipulation was for Thaksin profit.

8. The Phuket 'Free Enterprise Zone' was for Thaksin profit.

9. The lowering of teaching standards (English) was to keep the "po' folks po' with nowhere to go" and politcally based to create Thaksin profit.

Oh, better stop here, as the intention was to just make just another short list. The endless corruption and the level of stuff this guy was into makes, Nixon/Reagan/Bush, the oil manipulation guys, look like saints.

Edited November 22, 2006 by blam

[gmac]

How about the positive impacts?

I have one....

We no longer have to put up with bright lights coming from gas stations after 10pm

Yeah great! We can also sit from 10pm to 5am in the middle of nowhere with an empty tank waiting for them to re-open!

[pete_r]

Do we really have to read anymore thaksin news its so bloody boring almost every thread on the news clippings is about this box headed <deleted> say what he has and hasnt done we all know hes currupt and dodgy lets hear about other news like current events !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The past can be discussed until hel_l freezes over, but the present is an issue to handle carefully. I suspect Thaksin is a handy subject to keep the attention of the public away from other things.

[Buckwheat]

How about the positive impacts?

I have one....

We no longer have to put up with bright lights coming from gas stations after 10pm

Yeah great! We can also sit from 10pm to 5am in the middle of nowhere with an empty tank waiting for them to re-open!

Sigh...

Try reading the thread

[gmac]

I have read many of posters reactions and only ask this...

Do you relly mean or think, it will be westernized by kicking Mr. Thaksin out?

Asia will still be the most corrupted part of the world - after Africa, what ever we may think, do or live by.

Wait, China will open soon, and I fear that it will consume us all...

What's so great about "westernization", Bush, Blair et al are just as corrupt!

[redewenur]

Seems to me that the list demonstrates that so-called democracy was indeed broken.

Democracy is more than just villagers voting for the man they want, it must imply a system to ensure that power cannot be usurped by an individual for personal benefit. If the list is correct then this has sadly happened; the fact that the man was elected does not prove democracy.

By highlighting these items the new regime is showing it recognises a much broader scope of factors for healthy democracy and I hope they are flagging that all these factors will be open for examination in the new democracy yet to be constructed.

Sportrider

Yes, point taken - there's more to the democratic process than a 'free and fair election'; but 'just villagers' you say? Let's remember we're talking about 80% of the Thai people...although I do realise that the Bangkok elitists would probably consider that 80% barely worth counting.

[Darkling]

Where is he now? Does anyone know?