TIL-The Origin of Thai Names

[hdkane]

I have often wondered why Thais have such unique names, often different in structure and complexity from their SE Asian neighbors...google is amazing in offering almost immediate feedback...I learned that last names were not required in Thailand prior to 1913.  Each family headed by a mother and father was required to choose a name that was unique to them.  Consequently, any two Thais with the same last name are certainly and directly related.  New names cannot duplicate previously used names, and must be limited to 10 letters. 

 

Does anyone else have an interesting fact about Thais or Thai culture?

[IMA_FARANG]

My former Thai girlfriend was named for her great grndfather  who called himself Pung.

He took the last name Pungcharoen for his family as he said a man's "prosperity" was his decendents

So the family name became Pungcharoen.

 

[isanbirder]

A few surnames go back a lot further.... Bunnag is an example.

 

Many hilltribe people still have no surnames.  This especially applies to Karen.

[DGS1244]

Many of the old 'Thai' names were created, I think by Rama 5, to allow those with Chinese names to be better assimilated into Thai society.

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, DGS1244 said:

Many of the old 'Thai' names were created, I think by Rama 5, to allow those with Chinese names to be better assimilated into Thai society.

 

Or those with Indian names to become more Thai sounding.

Don'r forget also that the really important families would (and still do) work for the crown and were given special names to distinguish them from lesser families.

 

[Fabricus]

10 minutes ago, seancbk said:

 

Or those with Indian names to become more Thai sounding.

Don'r forget also that the really important families would (and still do) work for the crown and were given special names to distinguish them from lesser families.

 

Na Ayuthaya is an example.

[pennine]

I also often wondered why Thai names are so long, compared with Chinese, Vietnamese and Korean etc

[khunPer]

I read in a book about Thai culture – think it was "A History of Thailand" by Chris Baker & Pasuk Phongpaichit, Cambridge University Press – that when family names had to be registered, each family should choose a name of two unique sounding syllables; not two families could have the same combination. When all potentials were used up, then it became three syllables, and finally four. Families with only two syllables are the oldest – or first registered – according to the book, whilst later migrants has three or four syllables; from the number of syllables one can determine the "family age" in the Nation. The book also said, that Chinese migrants often has three or four syllables in their Thai family name – quite a number of Chinese merchants were living in Bangkok's Chinatown about half of the year, and later became Thais.

[Laza 45]

I don't know how true it is but I read somewhere that Many Thai names are derived from Sanskrit.. or Pali.. which is the language used in Theravada Buddhism chants ..   it would be interesting if anyone has more information on this..

[recom273]

Is it really true that anyone with the same surname is related ?

 

With regard to my wife, I can understand in her small Issan hamlet, everyone has the same name, or are close family, the family used to own all the land around the village ( now sold it off / drank or gambled it away ) and also a good percentage of them are left handed. Which also relates to their family name.

 

She has also a FB contact who shares the same name from Bangkok.

 

I also had a student in my class with the same surname .. 1300km away and the girl knew nothing of any family ties to Issan where in my opinion, the name came from.

 

Was the registration system foolproof ?

Edited August 13, 2016 by recom273

[Johpa]

6 hours ago, isanbirder said:

Many hilltribe people still have no surnames.  This especially applies to Karen.

 

Over the past several decades most of the Karen indigenous to Lanna Land have been bestowed family names, not to mention Thai citizenship as part of that same process.  Initially many of these names were simple two syllable patronyms Pa-(name of father).  But these were clearly not Thai family names and the Karen who worked among the Thais in town, to lessen discrimination, would often change the entire family's name to more traditional three syllable Thai sounding names.  Sometimes the Thai officials would bestow some pretty silly sounding last names to rural Karen who may not have spoken Thai at the time, but who would also change those names at a later date as their educated kids got older.  Actually it was the educated kids who would arrange for the entire family, at least everyone listed on the house registration, to have the name changed.

[henry15]

6 hours ago, Fabricus said:

 

Na Ayuthaya is an example.

Na Ayutthaya can only be uses by descendants of kings with a  direct bloodline.

 

The name used in front Na Ayuttaya indicates from  wich king

My wifes family name is Chumsai Na Ayudhaya, so this indicates that her bloodlines go's back to  Rama III.

Her grandfather  did  choose  this family name for his chikdren, because he still  had the tittle Mom luang.This is the last honory  royal tittle, because his children became commoners.

 

Its also forbidden to use the kings birthname for  4 or 5 generations generationd after him.

So you can't name your sun or grandson  Bhumiboll..

Under the dictatorship of Phibull Songkram, all  etnic Chinese were forced to change theire Chinese name to a Thai name

[Mudcrab]

10 hours ago, pennine said:

I also often wondered why Thai names are so long, compared with Chinese, Vietnamese and Korean etc

Most Thais I,ve met are are Kai, Noi, Su and Bee.

 

Thats around Soi 4 Sukunvit thogh

[Shot]

Very interesting thread.

[Sphere]

2 hours ago, Mudcrab said:

Most Thais I,ve met are are Kai, Noi, Su and Bee.

 

Thats around Soi 4 Sukunvit thogh

 

That would be the "Na Nana" line of descendants.

[dotpoom]

Just now, IMA_FARANG said:

My former Thai girlfriend was named for her great grndfather  who called himself Pung.

He took the last name Pungcharoen for his family as he said a man's "prosperity" was his decendents

So the family name became Pungcharoen.

 

That puts a hole in the theory that the name cannot have more than 10 characters?

[dotpoom]

I remember meeting a Thai man in Pattaya who lived next door to me. He had come home after working 33 years in America and was looking for something to occupy himself with. I suggested he buy a 7 Eleven shop. Cannot he said, my brother is a Director...."So"...I said..."what's the problem"....."we have the same name and he cannot give a family member a Franchise"  he said....."you could be from a different family" I said......"No"  he pointed out....""no two different families have the same family name in Thailand".

   That was the first time I learned this....fascinating.....considering most people back home go by the name....."Murphy" (spud for short, 555).

[csabo]

My GF says she found a girl in FB with the exact same first and last name (Thai spelling not phonetic) and contacted her to see if there was any relation. There was not.  Her sister had the same thing happen and was so irritated by it she changed her first name (as many Thais do).  

 

Update.  I just mentioned this thread to her so for fun she went online and found several more exact matches. 12 actually.

Edited August 14, 2016 by csabo

[csabo]

6 hours ago, dotpoom said:

That puts a hole in the theory that the name cannot have more than 10 characters?

 

The spelling with Thai characters would only be 7-8 depending on spelling.  Not sure what alphabet your rule requires.

[villagefarang]

While there are no equivalent names, like Smith or Jones, in Thailand it is still fairly rare to find unrelated people with the same name.  These days they run a computer search before issuing a new Thai name but there was a time when it was not possible to check all registered names throughout the country and you did end up with some unrelated people with the same name.

[Kwasaki]

My wife has my surname l wonder if it's buggered the system.   

[nisakiman]

On 13/08/2016 at 1:25 PM, khunPer said:

I read in a book about Thai culture – think it was "A History of Thailand" by Chris Baker & Pasuk Phongpaichit, Cambridge University Press – that when family names had to be registered, each family should choose a name of two unique sounding syllables; not two families could have the same combination. When all potentials were used up, then it became three syllables, and finally four. Families with only two syllables are the oldest – or first registered – according to the book, whilst later migrants has three or four syllables; from the number of syllables one can determine the "family age" in the Nation. The book also said, that Chinese migrants often has three or four syllables in their Thai family name – quite a number of Chinese merchants were living in Bangkok's Chinatown about half of the year, and later became Thais.

 

I just asked my wife about that, as her family name has two syllables, and she was somewhat sceptical because her father's family (with the two syllable name) were uneducated farmers, whereas her mother's family were all educated and were teachers, police officers and other professions, and their family name had four syllables. She said that when names were first being registered, surely her mother's side would have done so sooner than her father's side, being from the educated and more knowledgeable class.

 

Interesting, though.

 

Back in 1971 when I was in southern Thailand, I had a friend whose family name was 'Na Songkhla', and he was the son of the last governor (?) of Songkhla state. He was a very highly respected person, even though his family had no direct connection any more with the local government. I didn't know the term at that time, but I guess he would be described as 'Hi-So'. Not in his manner; he was a lovely guy, but in terms of his status in the local hierarchy.

[Fabricus]

On 8/14/2016 at 0:16 AM, henry15 said:

Na Ayutthaya can only be uses by descendants of kings with a  direct bloodline.

 

The name used in front Na Ayuttaya indicates from  wich king

My wifes family name is Chumsai Na Ayudhaya, so this indicates that her bloodlines go's back to  Rama III.

Her grandfather  did  choose  this family name for his chikdren, because he still  had the tittle Mom luang.This is the last honory  royal tittle, because his children became commoners.

 

Its also forbidden to use the kings birthname for  4 or 5 generations generationd after him.

So you can't name your sun or grandson  Bhumiboll..

Under the dictatorship of Phibull Songkram, all  etnic Chinese were forced to change theire Chinese name to a Thai name

 

Ha. It's really not quite as simple as you suggest, but this a "lightweight" forum so I'll give it a miss.

 

The truth about King Rama III is little understood (and you won't find anyone on this forum who knows about it), but do feel free to send me a PM if you want to know more.

 

In private, I'll happily tell you about Princess Sri Sulalai, Sultan Sulaiman Shah, an interesting PhD thesis written by a Thai guy in England, and why King Rama II's oldest (legitimate) son, Mongkut, became Rama IV instead of Rama III.

 

[khunPer]

10 minutes ago, nisakiman said:

 

I just asked my wife about that, as her family name has two syllables, and she was somewhat sceptical because her father's family (with the two syllable name) were uneducated farmers, whereas her mother's family were all educated and were teachers, police officers and other professions, and their family name had four syllables. She said that when names were first being registered, surely her mother's side would have done so sooner than her father's side, being from the educated and more knowledgeable class.

 

Interesting, though.

 

Back in 1971 when I was in southern Thailand, I had a friend whose family name was 'Na Songkhla', and he was the son of the last governor (?) of Songkhla state. He was a very highly respected person, even though his family had no direct connection any more with the local government. I didn't know the term at that time, but I guess he would be described as 'Hi-So'. Not in his manner; he was a lovely guy, but in terms of his status in the local hierarchy.

According to what I read, it's a question of registration time – a village farmer family could have registered before an educated city family. My first Thai girlfriend had two syllables in her family name, she's from poor village family near Korat (edge of Isaan) – I will say uneducated, as she could not read, nor write; same for mum and dad, and bigger sister, so probably also generations before had low or none education – my present girlfriend has a three syllable family name, she's from Isaan but originating khmer, as many families in Buri Ram and Surin area. High educated Chinese families often has three or four syllable names. But I can only refer to what I've read, so there could be other explanation. Wikipedia don't say anything – apart from Chinese family surnames often are long – and quote same book is in reference list for the Thai name article. The maximum 10 Thai letters in family names is here stated to be from the 1962 revision, covering new registered names. Wikipedia also says, that "As a measure of the diversity of Thai names, in a sample of 45,665 names, 81% of family names were unique, and 35% of given names were unique: the people with shared family names are thus related, and the diversity of given names is conventional."

 

By the way, my girlfriend met another girl with same family name, she didn't know her, but said that they were relatives, as they shared same name.

[blackcab]

Interesting comment about the 10 character limit for surnames. I just asked my wife and she has Thai friends with surnames longer than 10 Thai characters, not counting subscript and superscript characters.

 

The guy in the attached picture has an interesting name. Apparently he changed it back to his original name after a while because he found it difficult to spell.