Prayut performs better after two years in office

[Squeegee]

5 minutes ago, Plutojames88 said:

The international community no longer support Thailand.

 

We live in hope.

[halloween]

57 minutes ago, Plutojames88 said:

Immunity doesn't work when mobs arrive with fever pitch anger and the city is burning.

They are more likely to be butchered

 

Keep up your blood lust fantasies. Meanwhile the Thai people get on with life.

[Plutojames88]

7 hours ago, halloween said:

 

Keep up your blood lust fantasies. Meanwhile the Thai people get on with life.

Those not in prison or living in fear under military oppression .....perhaps .

But we are not talking about a beloved leader and his angelic band of merry men here.

its common the fate they often throughout history share.

 

Its almost poetic justice ....the karmic wheels.

 

Dont get too emotive if some of us even wish fate upon people largely seen here for what they are.

[Plutojames88]

8 hours ago, Squeegee said:

 

We live in hope.

Yes ....lets hope the world starts the processes it should have some time ago

[Thaidream]

They like Thaksin because they actually believe if he was in power that the economy would be robust because he is a billionaire and Thais think people with money know more than other people.  The reason Thaksin has money is that he started a telecom business with a government monopoly. You and I could do that. He talked a good game and used populism to get elected by paying off the rural poor with money during election time. The economy was more robust because rice prices and other commodities like rubber were doing well. Thaksin didn't do anything to cause that to happen but he took credit for it.  He became arrogant; and indicated he was more important than anyone else in Government or out and he lost the support of the wealthy and the military.

If Thaksin was great why haven't his minions been able to move Thailand forward on the World stage?  The problem is that the Thai dynamic is different- Thailand has placed its trust in globalization and the truth is that gloabilization works well if you are wealthy but makes the other 99% poorer. At one time Thailand was the number one exporter of rice but due to an alected government's incompetence it no longer can export as much as it needs too.

[Thaidream]

To the Poster Squeegee:  It appears your only comeback is to attack me personally for an opinion I  have regarding the government.  It's too bad because I respect other people's opinions whether I agree with them or not.  I have no intention in engaging you on any subject because you want to stifle my opinion because you do not like it. Your attack on me is way over the top and it shows what an angry person you are.  You call my opinion a lie. Why?  A lie is an intent to deceive when the truth is known.  How do you known the truth?  You have no  one sitting in the inner circle of power in Thailand nor do I.  I, however have 50 years of experience in Thailand and experiences which few can emulate. Does that make me an expert on Thailand and its people?  No, it does not. However people with long experience in a culture and an understanding of the dynamics can provide valuable insights that others may not have.

At the end of the day- neither my opinion or yours mean anything to Thailand or the Thai people. They will chart their own destiny and I can assure neither you nor I will have any real influence.

A word of advice- you can disagree with people and we can have a nice discussion- but I strongly object to the personal attacks that are so prevalent. You owe me an apology but I doubt I will ever get it.

[aussieinthailand]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

They like Thaksin because they actually believe if he was in power that the economy would be robust because he is a billionaire and Thais think people with money know more than other people.  The reason Thaksin has money is that he started a telecom business with a government monopoly. You and I could do that. He talked a good game and used populism to get elected by paying off the rural poor with money during election time. The economy was more robust because rice prices and other commodities like rubber were doing well. Thaksin didn't do anything to cause that to happen but he took credit for it.  He became arrogant; and indicated he was more important than anyone else in Government or out and he lost the support of the wealthy and the military.

If Thaksin was great why haven't his minions been able to move Thailand forward on the World stage?  The problem is that the Thai dynamic is different- Thailand has placed its trust in globalization and the truth is that gloabilization works well if you are wealthy but makes the other 99% poorer. At one time Thailand was the number one exporter of rice but due to an alected government's incompetence it no longer can export as much as it needs too.

Here's just a few reasons why they like him. 

initiating village managed micro-credit.  Low interest agricultural loans.  Direct cash injection into the village development funds (SML).

OTOP development scheme.  His policy's help Thailand out of the 1997 Asian financial crisis, and reduced poverty. 

GDP grew from 4.9 Trillion THB in  2001 to  7.1 Trillion THB in 2006.  Thailand under Thaksin repaid it's debt to the International Monetary fund two years ahead of schedule.    Income in the northeast the poorest part of Thailand rose 46% from 2001 to 2006.

Nation wide poverty fell from 21.3% to 11.3%.  The stock exchanged out performed other markets in the region.

Thaksin balanced the budget producing fiscal surpluses in 2003 to 2005. this whilst undertaking a massive infrastructure programed

Public sector debit fell from 57% of GDP in 2001 to 46% in 2006.  Foreign  Exchange reserves more than doubled from US 30 billion to US 64 Billion in 2001 to 2006. And then there's the life saving 30 THB National heath care fund.   The list goes on mate.

And THAT'S WHY THEY LIKE HIM....

But hey in your 50 years here you should already know that.

Now like I said in my other post list the achievements of Mark Veggi and the junta leader.

Edited August 23, 2016 by aussieinthailand

[Thaidream]

I don't believe you understand the crux of my argument. ALL of the prior 'democratic'  governments  in power were elected based on money politics- most achieved nothing except lining the pockets of the wealthy. Of course, the rural poor love Thaksin- life did improve under his regime- but not because of many things initiated by him directly.  Excellent commodity prices and a robust export World trend  accounted for most of the numbers you present. I am sure Google would support your numbers but it is not because Thaksin was a great leader. He and his cronies used populist policies to attempt to secure his legacy. He was schooled by the American political machine and he bought the best foreign advisors there are- people who worked on Presidential campaigns in the US. He used the same psychology that is used in America- give the people some crumbs and they will remember you forever but you can only live on crumbs for a short period before you need something more substantial.Thaksin lost his support because he became too corrupt and tried to put in place his cronies throughout the Thai civil service system and military shunting aside many who worked for decades to move up the ladder. In addition, he threatened other institutions that one does not threaten in Thailand.

I never said the unelected governments were better than the elected- My argument is that for ages they are all the same. I want to give the current government the benefit of the doubt in that I see them actually trying to reform segments of Thai society that have exploited the poor for their own gain-

  -Reform of the electoral process to take money out of the equation

-  Reform of the land policy where the wealthy have exploited the poor for  decades

-A crackdown on the sex industry by pushing for more raids to nab wealthy owners exploiting the underage and allowing unfettered use of drugs.

- Attempting to reform the educational system

-Huge infrastructure improvement projects- expansion of airports and roadways and ports

-A crackdown on money laundering

-Going after the drug trade.

-An attempt reform the budget process and take corruption out of it.

 

If one listens to the Prime Minster- I sense that he knows what needs to be done and has a vision for the future. He also wants to preserve Thai traditions and institutions that are under fire from elements in Thailand that  want to destroy these same traditions.

 

Frankly speaking, I am not a firm proponent of the type of democracy that is practised in the Western World  which is not really democracy but what I call economic materialism where the wealthy 1% control everything and the 99% have no real access to advance their standard of living or hope for a better future.  

 

The military per se is not suited to control governments but the current regime has the real chance to make the reforms necessary to move Thailand forward and transition into elected governments where the people of Thailand have a real choice not one bought and paid for by the wealthy.  Maybe i am being too hopeful  but there has to be some point in a countries history where great changes are made.  The politicians of the past- including Thaksin and the others you mention  hopefully will not be part of the change. I would like to see a new young generation full of ideas and the will to carry them out emerge so as to give hope to the Kingdom.

At the end of the day- neither you nor I  have any influence on what will happen. We are outsiders simply with a personal opinion and a hope that things go well for Thailand and its people.

[Eligius]

32 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I don't believe you understand the crux of my argument. ALL of the prior 'democratic'  governments  in power were elected based on money politics- most achieved nothing except lining the pockets of the wealthy. Of course, the rural poor love Thaksin- life did improve under his regime- but not because of many things initiated by him directly.  Excellent commodity prices and a robust export World trend  accounted for most of the numbers you present. I am sure Google would support your numbers but it is not because Thaksin was a great leader. He and his cronies used populist policies to attempt to secure his legacy. He was schooled by the American political machine and he bought the best foreign advisors there are- people who worked on Presidential campaigns in the US. He used the same psychology that is used in America- give the people some crumbs and they will remember you forever but you can only live on crumbs for a short period before you need something more substantial.Thaksin lost his support because he became too corrupt and tried to put in place his cronies throughout the Thai civil service system and military shunting aside many who worked for decades to move up the ladder. In addition, he threatened other institutions that one does not threaten in Thailand.

I never said the unelected governments were better than the elected- My argument is that for ages they are all the same. I want to give the current government the benefit of the doubt in that I see them actually trying to reform segments of Thai society that have exploited the poor for their own gain-

  -Reform of the electoral process to take money out of the equation

-  Reform of the land policy where the wealthy have exploited the poor for  decades

-A crackdown on the sex industry by pushing for more raids to nab wealthy owners exploiting the underage and allowing unfettered use of drugs.

- Attempting to reform the educational system

-Huge infrastructure improvement projects- expansion of airports and roadways and ports

-A crackdown on money laundering

-Going after the drug trade.

-An attempt reform the budget process and take corruption out of it.

 

If one listens to the Prime Minster- I sense that he knows what needs to be done and has a vision for the future. He also wants to preserve Thai traditions and institutions that are under fire from elements in Thailand that  want to destroy these same traditions.

 

Frankly speaking, I am not a firm proponent of the type of democracy that is practised in the Western World  which is not really democracy but what I call economic materialism where the wealthy 1% control everything and the 99% have no real access to advance their standard of living or hope for a better future.  

 

The military per se is not suited to control governments but the current regime has the real chance to make the reforms necessary to move Thailand forward and transition into elected governments where the people of Thailand have a real choice not one bought and paid for by the wealthy.  Maybe i am being too hopeful  but there has to be some point in a countries history where great changes are made.  The politicians of the past- including Thaksin and the others you mention  hopefully will not be part of the change. I would like to see a new young generation full of ideas and the will to carry them out emerge so as to give hope to the Kingdom.

At the end of the day- neither you nor I  have any influence on what will happen. We are outsiders simply with a personal opinion and a hope that things go well for Thailand and its people.

'I would like to see a new young generation full of ideas and the will to carry them out emerge so as to give hope to the Kingdom'. Could not agree with you more. Am with you 100%.

But the present bunch of autocrats and freedom-crushers are not the ones we should be hoping for, or expecting anything from (unless it's more oppression and brutish domination)!

Edited August 23, 2016 by Eligius

[aussieinthailand]

51 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I don't believe you understand the crux of my argument. ALL of the prior 'democratic'  governments  in power were elected based on money politics- most achieved nothing except lining the pockets of the wealthy. Of course, the rural poor love Thaksin- life did improve under his regime- but not because of many things initiated by him directly.  Excellent commodity prices and a robust export World trend  accounted for most of the numbers you present. I am sure Google would support your numbers but it is not because Thaksin was a great leader. He and his cronies used populist policies to attempt to secure his legacy. He was schooled by the American political machine and he bought the best foreign advisors there are- people who worked on Presidential campaigns in the US. He used the same psychology that is used in America- give the people some crumbs and they will remember you forever but you can only live on crumbs for a short period before you need something more substantial.Thaksin lost his support because he became too corrupt and tried to put in place his cronies throughout the Thai civil service system and military shunting aside many who worked for decades to move up the ladder. In addition, he threatened other institutions that one does not threaten in Thailand.

I never said the unelected governments were better than the elected- My argument is that for ages they are all the same. I want to give the current government the benefit of the doubt in that I see them actually trying to reform segments of Thai society that have exploited the poor for their own gain-

  -Reform of the electoral process to take money out of the equation

-  Reform of the land policy where the wealthy have exploited the poor for  decades

-A crackdown on the sex industry by pushing for more raids to nab wealthy owners exploiting the underage and allowing unfettered use of drugs.

- Attempting to reform the educational system

-Huge infrastructure improvement projects- expansion of airports and roadways and ports

-A crackdown on money laundering

-Going after the drug trade.

-An attempt reform the budget process and take corruption out of it.

 

If one listens to the Prime Minster- I sense that he knows what needs to be done and has a vision for the future. He also wants to preserve Thai traditions and institutions that are under fire from elements in Thailand that  want to destroy these same traditions.

 

Frankly speaking, I am not a firm proponent of the type of democracy that is practised in the Western World  which is not really democracy but what I call economic materialism where the wealthy 1% control everything and the 99% have no real access to advance their standard of living or hope for a better future.  

 

The military per se is not suited to control governments but the current regime has the real chance to make the reforms necessary to move Thailand forward and transition into elected governments where the people of Thailand have a real choice not one bought and paid for by the wealthy.  Maybe i am being too hopeful  but there has to be some point in a countries history where great changes are made.  The politicians of the past- including Thaksin and the others you mention  hopefully will not be part of the change. I would like to see a new young generation full of ideas and the will to carry them out emerge so as to give hope to the Kingdom.

At the end of the day- neither you nor I  have any influence on what will happen. We are outsiders simply with a personal opinion and a hope that things go well for Thailand and its people.

"Populist policy's" while not always good for a nation's economy,  but many times they are.  Not to many governments are elected that present unpopular policy's now do they? That's how democracy has worked since the day's of senator's in Greece offering deals for votes up until now the deals are done in board rooms with big business.. 

 

Ok I have provided you with numbers, percentages, date's, and time frames regarding the Thaksin policy's, but you respond with opinion with no facts what so ever.  Like him or loath him his time in the top job and his implementation of policy's made a massive improvement on the quality of life for the people. And to claim a leader of the country and his policy's  has no direct impact on the people but rather you claim commodity prices and not policy is responsible for this is simply ridicules.

Sure a great market form your export commodities is fantastic for business, and peoples lives generally improve, but without good governance  good sales will have a far less affect on people and the economy.

I agree with you that government is not the place for a military,  so junta fan I am not.

I wish he was doing as he claims in the fight on corruption, unfortunately those targeted are very carefully selected, and I'm afride the judicial system is very far from being blind.  Then you have civilian's being tried in military courts, against human rights.

Also not a fan of gaoling students calling for independent investigation on corruption, or gaoling of opponents and that dare to speak out against him or his government.  Then you have his criminalizing open debate on the shame of a constitution with such travesty's of justice like being "rude" or "harsh" regarding it or anything that can be interpreted as causing trouble.

So I'm afraid this bloke has well and truly miss the boat and he will be judged for it, and some say held accountable for it.

Look it seems we both want to see Thailand go ahead and progress but the end's doesn't always justify the means.

Each to their own you to yours and me to mine and that's ok.  Cheers.

 

 

[DM07]

Just imagine, how well he will perform after another 8 years in office! 

[Thaidream]

I agree with many of your points but I read the Junta leader as someone who wants the reforms to work and he exercises his 'power' in a way that will stifle the old politicians from using their  wealth to purchase 'opinion' and cause dissent without people having  a complete understanding of the facts. You are right- in its purest form this is dangerous and the leader has to be 'benevolent' and this type of autocracy is very much against our Western traditions.  I am still willing to give him a chance to pull it off. However, things like a single gateway; tracking people with SIMS and some of the other draconian things discussed are not to my liking.

For sure- he should listen to a PR agent because his use of the Thai language is 'rough'- castigating people for asking  thoughtful questions. However, he is not a politician but a General with a mission.

I am not a full supporter of the Junta's approach but it is the only game in town so I hope his reform policies are successful 

 

I agree Thaksin started out doing some good things for the country- by allowing the economy to take its natural course. His 30 Baht plan has saved the life of one of my family members. However,  what did him in was his refusal to stop the blatant corruption that pervades everyday life in Thailand and to stack the  civil service and military with only those loyal to him rather than promote based upon ability or seniority. Everything became about Him as opposed to everything being about the people. I would hope that people can move on and a new leader emerges that has the backing of all stakeholders.

 

If they had an election today what change would there be?   We would have the same old parties; the same players as before and the same policies. Let's see what happens during the next election. All of us here want the same thing for families and friends. A prosperous  safe country where  the true Thai spirit shines.    Best wishes to you and yours.

 

 

 

 

[Squeegee]

6 hours ago, Thaidream said:

To the Poster Squeegee:  It appears your only comeback is to attack me personally for an opinion I  have regarding the government.  It's too bad because I respect other people's opinions whether I agree with them or not.  I have no intention in engaging you on any subject because you want to stifle my opinion because you do not like it. Your attack on me is way over the top and it shows what an angry person you are.  You call my opinion a lie. Why?  A lie is an intent to deceive when the truth is known.  How do you known the truth?  You have no  one sitting in the inner circle of power in Thailand nor do I.  I, however have 50 years of experience in Thailand and experiences which few can emulate. Does that make me an expert on Thailand and its people?  No, it does not. However people with long experience in a culture and an understanding of the dynamics can provide valuable insights that others may not have.

At the end of the day- neither my opinion or yours mean anything to Thailand or the Thai people. They will chart their own destiny and I can assure neither you nor I will have any real influence.

A word of advice- you can disagree with people and we can have a nice discussion- but I strongly object to the personal attacks that are so prevalent. You owe me an apology but I doubt I will ever get it.

 

 

 

"To the Poster Squeegee:  It appears your only comeback is to attack me personally for an opinion I  have regarding the government."

 

Another lie. It's so ingrained in you that you don't even notice you're doing it.

 

Now for the truth. I challenged you to back up your "opinions." Again, unlike you, I can do it. If you lie and say my only comeback was personal attacks and you don't engage the points I made you are a fraud. Your claim is a lie, as we see:

 

"People in Thailand are unable to protest, and when they try they get locked up."

 

I even underlined it for you in the post you refer to, and yet according to you, it simply isn't there. This is not about you ignoring my points because I say them rudely, since this is your modus operandi anyway and you ignore these same points when other posters put them to you.

 

Noting your lies on the forum is making an observation. The saying 'criticize the post not the poster' to me does not hold up here because you are choosing to propagate lies across the forum. That is why you continue to claim the 2011 election was bought, as.. I.. already.. said.

If it is your "opinion" or not doesn't matter, that the election was condoned by a respected third party to claim it was bought is a lie. You rarely - if ever - say "In my opinion" but instead just throw it out there with no such qualification that the election was bought. How convenient for you that by doing this you might influence the thinking of anyone who doesn't know better, how inconvenient for you that there is someone like me, impolite enough to call you on it.

A spade is a spade and a lie is a lie. Quite frankly, I believe you are doing a great impoliteness to the Thai population and anyone who has suffered an injustice at the hands of the oppressors you not only seem to condone but appear to be actively supporting with your own stream of propaganda.

 

 

 

"It's too bad because I respect other people's opinions whether I agree with them or not."

 

No. you support a regime that denies people an opinion of their own. Alright for you, not for a couple of old ladies.

 

Personal attacks and respecting opinions... sickly, saccharine sentiments like the shiny coat of civility your glorious leader hides behind on television. You are actually showing no respect for the whole population of Thailand by trying to throw poo at their votes.

 

 

 

 

"I have no intention in engaging you on any subject..."

 

We know that already. That's the whole point: I am observing your modus operandi, to spout nonsense, blatant proven lies and "opinions" without qualifying them.

 

 

 

 

"You call my opinion a lie. Why?  A lie is an intent to deceive when the truth is known. How do you known the truth?  You have no  one sitting in the inner circle of power in Thailand nor do I."

 

Independent observers gave us the truth. You deny this truth and promote an untruth. That's lying is it not?

 

 

 

 

"I, however have 50 years of experience in Thailand and experiences which few can emulate. Does that make me an expert on Thailand and its people?  No, it does not. However people with long experience in a culture and an understanding of the dynamics can provide valuable insights that others may not have."

 

A common mistake made by those who experienced life but haven't learned from it: that life experience is not a qualification in and of itself. Next you'll be condoning greng-jai.

 

 

 

 

"At the end of the day- neither my opinion or yours mean anything to Thailand or the Thai people. They will chart their own destiny and I can assure neither you nor I will have any real influence."

 

Not true. We are the fathers, sons and husbands of Thai people. Our countries are the business partners of Thailand. Now I start to wonder if you can even speak a lick of Thai, with a view like that.

 

 

 

 

"...because you want to stifle my opinion because you do not like it."

 

Don't flatter yourself. I don't care about your opinions. You'll do anything to avoid the real issues, as is my point.

 

 

 

 

"Your attack on me is way over the top and it shows what an angry person you are."

 

Your only real content. It's a fair assessment [Edit - that I am angry].

I despise injustice so I'm flippin' angry with certain people in Thailand.

 

Also, I don't enjoy speaking to you with such disdain, you don't come across as a horrid person or whatever (I dare say I fare much worse in that regard!) but how many times must I be somehow polite and respectful to someone endlessly repeating the same untruths that support major injustices, and who will not qualify them if they are not, indeed, untruths?

 

To put it quite bluntly, if there were no independent observers of the 2011 election then we could talk about opinions.

 

 

 

 

"A word of advice- you can disagree with people and we can have a nice discussion..."

 

Don't talk to me about discussion. Go talk to heybruce (iirc) and answer the points he's made to you.

 

 

 

 

 

"...but I strongly object to the personal attacks that are so prevalent. You owe me an apology but I doubt I will ever get it."

 

How about we start the ball rolling with you apologizing to those two old ladies for supporting a regime that didn't respect their opinions?

 

You're crying over blunt talk for the sake of your opinions, they got locked up for theirs. That in itself shows how out of touch you are because these are real people's lives that are destroyed whilst you wax lyrical about your own precious opinions.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Squeegee

[Plutojames88]

23 minutes ago, Squeegee said:

 

 

 

"To the Poster Squeegee:  It appears your only comeback is to attack me personally for an opinion I  have regarding the government."

 

Another lie. It's so ingrained in you that you don't even notice you're doing it.

 

Now for the truth. I challenged you to back up your "opinions." Again, unlike you, I can do it. If you lie and say my only comeback was personal attacks and you don't engage the points I made you are a fraud. Your claim is a lie, as we see:

 

"People in Thailand are unable to protest, and when they try they get locked up."

 

I even underlined it for you in the post you refer to, and yet according to you, it simply isn't there. This is not about you ignoring my points because I say them rudely, since this is your modus operandi anyway and you ignore these same points when other posters put them to you.

 

Noting your lies on the forum is making an observation. The saying 'criticize the post not the poster' to me does not hold up here because you are choosing to propagate lies across the forum. That is why you continue to claim the 2011 election was bought, as.. I.. already.. said.

If it is your "opinion" or not doesn't matter, that the election was condoned by a respected third party to claim it was bought is a lie. You rarely - if ever - say "In my opinion" but instead just throw it out there with no such qualification that the election was bought. How convenient for you that by doing this you might influence the thinking of anyone who doesn't know better, how inconvenient for you that there is someone like me, impolite enough to call you on it.

A spade is a spade and a lie is a lie. Quite frankly, I believe you are doing a great impoliteness to the Thai population and anyone who has suffered an injustice at the hands of the oppressors you not only seem to condone but appear to be actively supporting with your own stream of propaganda.

 

 

 

"It's too bad because I respect other people's opinions whether I agree with them or not."

 

No. you support a regime that denies people an opinion of their own. Alright for you, not for a couple of old ladies.

 

Personal attacks and respecting opinions... sickly, saccharine sentiments like the shiny coat of civility your glorious leader hides behind on television. You are actually showing no respect for the whole population of Thailand by trying to throw poo at their votes.

 

 

 

 

"I have no intention in engaging you on any subject..."

 

We know that already. That's the whole point: I am observing your modus operandi, to spout nonsense, blatant proven lies and "opinions" without qualifying them.

 

 

 

 

"You call my opinion a lie. Why?  A lie is an intent to deceive when the truth is known. How do you known the truth?  You have no  one sitting in the inner circle of power in Thailand nor do I."

 

Independent observers gave us the truth. You deny this truth and promote an untruth. That's lying is it not?

 

 

 

 

"I, however have 50 years of experience in Thailand and experiences which few can emulate. Does that make me an expert on Thailand and its people?  No, it does not. However people with long experience in a culture and an understanding of the dynamics can provide valuable insights that others may not have."

 

A common mistake made by those who experienced life but haven't learned from it: that life experience is not a qualification in and of itself. Next you'll be condoning greng-jai.

 

 

 

 

"At the end of the day- neither my opinion or yours mean anything to Thailand or the Thai people. They will chart their own destiny and I can assure neither you nor I will have any real influence."

 

Not true. We are the fathers, sons and husbands of Thai people. Our countries are the business partners of Thailand. Now I start to wonder if you can even speak a lick of Thai, with a view like that.

 

 

 

 

"...because you want to stifle my opinion because you do not like it."

 

Don't flatter yourself. I don't care about your opinions. You'll do anything to avoid the real issues, as is my point.

 

 

 

 

"Your attack on me is way over the top and it shows what an angry person you are."

 

Your only real content. It's a fair assessment [Edit - that I am angry].

I despise injustice so I'm flippin' angry with certain people in Thailand.

 

Also, I don't enjoy speaking to you with such disdain, you don't come across as a horrid person or whatever (I dare say I fare much worse in that regard!) but how many times must I be somehow polite and respectful to someone endlessly repeating the same untruths that support major injustices, and who will not qualify them if they are not, indeed, untruths?

 

To put it quite bluntly, if there were no independent observers of the 2011 election then we could talk about opinions.

 

 

 

 

"A word of advice- you can disagree with people and we can have a nice discussion..."

 

Don't talk to me about discussion. Go talk to heybruce (iirc) and answer the points he's made to you.

 

 

 

 

 

"...but I strongly object to the personal attacks that are so prevalent. You owe me an apology but I doubt I will ever get it."

 

How about we start the ball rolling with you apologizing to those two old ladies for supporting a regime that didn't respect their opinions?

 

You're crying over blunt talk for the sake of your opinions, they got locked up for theirs. That in itself shows how out of touch you are because these are real people's lives that are destroyed whilst you wax lyrical about your own precious opinions.

Well said .

 

It's puzzling people sit by and cold and clinical dismiss great injustices as progress.

 

Caring for Thai people means empathy for injustices committed against them, by unlawful criminals who claim power by gun in treason acts against them.

Junta have taken power.

It eliminate them by any means is just.

People go to gaol for nogood reasons .

Facebook likes?

opinions ?

 

This is war.

 

They are outside truely of civil boundaries of tolerance .

 

So those injustices alone are worthy of reprisals .

 

What people think of oppressors is their business .
They are in my view shallow unworthy of debate.

But they are allowed their views.

 

I hope the junta learns when they are dragged out after midnight and sat in a chair by a brick wall facing firing squads.....that treason won't go unpunished .
That their crimes are only worthy of death.

 

Many would have been butchered by the people.
I hope the leader survives .
I would take gratification seeing his demeanour when brought to trial.

People who say the reds have had election successes are fools .
It's silly debating these points.

Even sillier is their belief these people have any right to be ordering , gaoling, or hijacking the Nation.
It's high Treason and death can be the only just outcome.
Nothing less.

It's only a matter of time.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Plutojames88

[Thaidream]

Have a nice life and the best to you and yours. I don't debate those who insult. I feel sorry for you!!

[heybruce]

4 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Have a nice life and the best to you and yours. I don't debate those who insult. I feel sorry for you!!

No, you don't debate those who challenge your "opinions" with facts.

[tbthailand]

On August 21, 2016 at 6:12 AM, trainman34014 said:

 

 

A lot of truth in what you say and Democracy doesn't always throw up the best leaders for sure.   Adolf Hitler and George Bush were elected by their own people in the 'normal' democratic way and they both did massive damage to their own countries and Worldwide.

actually, neither was elected. Both were appointed. 

[Thaidream]

Your facts are what you believe. My facts are what I have seen.  Neither of us are going  to change the others mind.  The problem with foreigners in general in Thailand is they think those with the loudest voice wins. Actually, like the Thais- those with the loudest voice  is looked down as immature and having poor manners.  If you have followed anything I have ever said on this board- you know I do not respond and debate people who insult, speak in a derogatory manner or otherwise are generally rude. No one has to accept my opinion or even care about it. And that doesn't bother me. However, it bothers some posters because they think that their so called facts are accurate where in reality they don't know much about living in Thailand or the Thai system. However, you all can continue to deceive yourselves and be deceived. As we say in Thailand- Up To You. .

[Plutojames88]

The reds win each election because the people love them.

 

ironically , it's the elites who seek to rig things.

 

Stack the situation ....hold power by force.

 

People who like to represent Thais when discussing elitist powers are repugnant and not someone I would bother debating.

 

I am more a burn the city down type of guy , if the oppressors give you no choice

[debate101]

That's a lot of text to try to respond to, but there are a few recurring fallacious arguments that are quite aggravating and need to be dealt with:

 

"Thaksin didn't really help people" - It should be up to the people who were helped or not helped to make that decision. It's not up to you or some avaricious generals to decide. That's kind of the whole point.

 

"Thaksin did some good stuff, but he was too powerful and corrupt and had to be stopped" - That "good stuff" he did was a feature of the democratic system, nothing to do with morality or some kind of inherent goodness of the man. Now we get a gang which has no incentive whatsoever to help anyone, is much more (legally) powerful than he ever was, and whose corruption can neither be investigated nor discussed openly. Sounds like a shitty deal to me.

 

"Give them a chance. Let's wait and see what happens" - fortunately, we have these things called history and other countries we can study to get a pretty good (but not so pretty) picture of what is going to happen. The burden of proof is on you to provide a historical example of a country taken over by the military which ended up better off because of it. I can even save you the time. There aren't any. 

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by debate101

[Thaidream]

You might want to study the history of the American Revolution- a military uprising that changed the face of America forever.

[heybruce]

34 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Your facts are what you believe. My facts are what I have seen.  Neither of us are going  to change the others mind.  The problem with foreigners in general in Thailand is they think those with the loudest voice wins. Actually, like the Thais- those with the loudest voice  is looked down as immature and having poor manners.  If you have followed anything I have ever said on this board- you know I do not respond and debate people who insult, speak in a derogatory manner or otherwise are generally rude. No one has to accept my opinion or even care about it. And that doesn't bother me. However, it bothers some posters because they think that their so called facts are accurate where in reality they don't know much about living in Thailand or the Thai system. However, you all can continue to deceive yourselves and be deceived. As we say in Thailand- Up To You. .

My facts come from a World Bank report, Transparency International, history, etc.  Your facts are what you have seen with blinders firmly in place.  You will not acknowledge the obvious fact that the military is corrupt and past coups didn't benefit Thailand, they only benefited the generals.

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You might want to study the history of the American Revolution- a military uprising that changed the face of America forever.

You might want to study the history of the American Revolution.  The only military in place when it began was the British military, and it was not a revolution against democratic rule, but a revolution to bring about democratic rule.

[Plutojames88]

7 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

You might want to study the history of the American Revolution- a military uprising that changed the face of America forever.

That's cute.

 

Its wasn't a junta .

It was a revolution against a power .......much the same Thai people today are the people in need of revolution ....

 

 

This junta is insidious and morally indefensible .

[Thaidream]

Actually, I do acknowledge that the prior coups before this were a charade and benefitted no one except the coup makers especially the one in 1992. However, I cannot yet comment on the current regime yet as their regime is still in place and the final outcome is unknown. It is history that will determine how this coup will be judged. It will not be me. In addition, I am not saying that the current regime is without error, I am just willing to give them them time to see if reforms actually take place.  

Edited August 23, 2016 by Thaidream

[Plutojames88]

I can judge it.

 

gaoling people .

 

gulags .

 

Oppression 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Actually, I do acknowledge that the prior coups before this were a charade and benefitted no one except the coup makers especially the one in 1992. However, I cannot yet comment on the current regime yet as their regime is still in place and the final outcome is unknown. It is history that will determine how this coup will be judged. It will not be me. In addition, I am not saying that the current regime is without error, I am just willing to give them them time to see if reforms actually take place.  

Definition of insanity:  Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[debate101]

I get the sense that some of the pro-junta posters on this board may be Thais or of mixed heritage. If so, I appreciate that you are willing to come here and have a dialogue with the foreigners who are concerned with Thai affairs "on our home turf," so to speak--especially since much of the Thai/buddhist tradition teaches that reality is ultimately unknowable and certainly unexplainable through blunt instruments such as words.

 

I see a lot of Thai-language discourse that amounts to little more than social posturing, and the idea of coming to some kind of consensus on reality through constructive dialog is more of a foreign one. Not all of the dialog here has been constructive, even devolving into personal attacks at times considering the weight of the stakes at hand, but please don't let it put you off.

Edited August 23, 2016 by debate101

[lucky11]

19 hours ago, Squeegee said:

 

This thread shows you to be a time waster with nothing intelligent to say. You are only worthy of being called for what you are, your points are, as I said, unintelligent wastes of time.

 

Unlike you, I can back myself up, so here is the proof:

 

"look around-there are no mobs in the streets protesting this and that"

 

No real content here, only diversion tactics, the same underhand way of going about things as your beloved parasites. People in Thailand are unable to protest, and when they try they get locked up. There is the proof you have nothing intelligent to say.

 

We can predict you will continue to lie and deceive with your propaganda drivel about lack of protests because you are still repeating the lie that the 2011 elections were bought, which is proven false.

 

 

You can't back yourself up and you didn't answer heybruce's points precisely because you have no basis for your position. Just like we can see through the corrupt junta narrative, we also see through you.

 

 

Q. Thaidream, how can you wake up each day and live with the fact you are seen as a failure?

A. Because you are already capable of waking up to greet each day as a morally bankrupt supporter of oppression against your fellow man.

 

 

  What a load of baloney!! 

[lucky11]

2 hours ago, heybruce said:

You might want to study the history of the American Revolution.  The only military in place when it began was the British military, and it was not a revolution against democratic rule, but a revolution to bring about democratic rule.

 Well they failed miserably in that!! You are going to tell me that the American government is democratic, aren't you.