Misconceptions On Recovery Vs Treatment Vs Aa

[rodeoooo]

the stuff below my rant are untrue statments

over the next few days i will post the reasons FACTUALLY with FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE

I dont know who wrote this BS but it may drive someone to try another method that may not work for his/her conditon

we will look at definitions

for example

I have Cancer

what does that mean? Colon, liver, stomach, lymphatic or maybe skin cancer

ALL require different treatment plans, correct?

I am Alcoholic

what does that mean?

the original litature of AA describes 3 types

(fyi- in the beginning AA had a 75% recovery rate)

Type 1= heavy drinker

Type 2= problem drinker

Type 3= "real alcoholic"

all three types require different treatment plans

get it?

you cannot lump all drinkers together

the below JUNK is WRONG right out of the gate because it says AA is about addictions. It is NOT

So it starts out WRONG

Addiction Alternatives and AA

Five major differences between the philosophy of 12-step programs and the philosophy of alternative treatment options.

This comparison chart can help you see philosophical differences, but there is no right or wrong answer.

Addiction Alternatives: Addictions are learned behaviors with biological influences and cause physical alteration and neurological changes in the way the brain functions. People vary on their degree of biological propensities.

AA: Addictions are caused by a disease, a genetic inheritance from birth.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature

Addiction Alternatives: Not everyone with an alcohol problem needs to stop drinking forever.

AA: Everyone who has ever had a drinking problem or drug abuse history must forever maintain complete abstinence from all mood/mind altering substances.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature

Addiction Alternatives: You can learn to empower yourself.

AA: You are powerless over your addiction.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature, it has been misquoted and taken out of contex

Addiction Alternatives: Belief in a higher power or anything spiritual is completely optional.

AA: A spiritual approach, including belief in a higher power, is essential to overcome your addiction.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature, it has been misquoted and taken out of contex

Addiction Alternatives: You can learn how to overcome your addiction and move on to enjoy an addiction-free life.

AA: You must attend meetings for the rest of your life because you never overcome your addiction.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature, it has been misquoted and taken out of contex

Yeah yeah yeah, i go to AA

saved my live

continues to save it

the reason AA has a bad rap is misquoted bullshit by people that have NOT done thier homework

the watered down middle of the road AA and other recovery programs KILL people because they fail to identify the REAL ALKIE and give him/her a plan that WILL work 100% sucessfully

more later if i dont get banned

[Mobi]

Keep going - its interesting and informative.

I only hope that Mr Robitusson (or whatever his name is) doesn't spot this thread, as heaven help you (and the storage capacity of Thai Visa) is he does. For if there was ever someone with a mission in life to rant on about the evils of AA, it is surely he.

There's no reason for you to be banned - kep up the good work

[Crushdepth]

My father was a chronic alcoholic for many years. He eventually managed to stop drinking and now leads a normal life. AA didn't 'cure' him but it was certainly one factor that helped him on his path to recovery.

Some people swear by AA and other people hate it. I don't know why anyone would expect it to be a complete cure in itself, or why other people claim that it is entirely useless. I think its just a case that AA works for some people and not for others.

[robitusson]

Keep going - its interesting and informative.

I only hope that Mr Robitusson (or whatever his name is) doesn't spot this thread, as heaven help you (and the storage capacity of Thai Visa) is he does. For if there was ever someone with a mission in life to rant on about the evils of AA, it is surely he.

There's no reason for you to be banned - kep up the good work

Sorry M D'A.

[robitusson]

the reason AA has a bad rap is misquoted bullshit by people that have NOT done thier homework

Want to talk about the factual and verifiable information on successful recovery rates of AA and how they compare to other programmes?

Let me know.

[robitusson]

I think its just a case that AA works for some people and not for others.

Exactly.

the watered down middle of the road AA and other recovery programs KILL people because they fail to identify the REAL ALKIE and give him/her a plan that WILL work 100% sucessfully

more later if i dont get banned

This has all been gone into before extensively. Just read back over the other threads.

[sabaijai]

I think its just a case that AA works for some people and not for others.

Exactly.

the watered down middle of the road AA and other recovery programs KILL people because they fail to identify the REAL ALKIE and give him/her a plan that WILL work 100% sucessfully

more later if i dont get banned

This has all been gone into before extensively. Just read back over the other threads.

Have to agree with Robitusson, all of this has been gone over in other threads here. Why not respond in the original threads rather than starting a new thread?

the below JUNK is WRONG right out of the gate because it says AA is about addictions. It is NOT

So it starts out WRONG

No need to shout.

[sabaijai]

REAL ALKIE

Telltale sign of a cult:

Dispensing existence

This is Lifton’s term for the phenomenon whereby group insiders are plainly distinguished, made to feel different, and set apart from nonmembers or outsiders. The idea that so-called alcoholics are fundamentally different from the rest of humanity is a mainstay of the Alcoholism Movement, and AA goes to great lengths to ensure that its members accept and retain their special identity. Many of AA’s rituals are aimed at reinforcing that idea. Alexander and Rollins illustrated this with quotations such as: “People not in AA are ‘Normies’”[53] (normal people as opposed to “alcoholics”). According to Clarence Snyder, one of AA’s pioneer members, “alcoholics are different from people.

An another telltale sign:

I am Alcoholic

what does that mean?

the original litature of AA describes 3 types

(fyi- in the beginning AA had a 75% recovery rate)

Type 1= heavy drinker

Type 2= problem drinker

Type 3= "real alcoholic"

all three types require different treatment plans

get it?

falls into the category of:

Sacred science

The sacred science strategem evokes an aura of irrefutable, unquestionable, correctness about the group’s central dogma. AA, for example, holds itself to be in possession of certain knowledge regarding the disposition of alcoholism and the effectiveness of the Steps. Alexander and Rollins documented this by quoting members’ statements such as: “I’ve been following the steps, and the promises about what would happen are true.”

from Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult?

[Pattayatony]

the stuff below my rant are untrue statments

over the next few days i will post the reasons FACTUALLY with FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE

I dont know who wrote this BS but it may drive someone to try another method that may not work for his/her conditon

we will look at definitions

for example

I have Cancer

what does that mean? Colon, liver, stomach, lymphatic or maybe skin cancer

ALL require different treatment plans, correct?

I am Alcoholic

what does that mean?

the original litature of AA describes 3 types

(fyi- in the beginning AA had a 75% recovery rate)

Type 1= heavy drinker

Type 2= problem drinker

Type 3= "real alcoholic"

all three types require different treatment plans

get it?

you cannot lump all drinkers together

the below JUNK is WRONG right out of the gate because it says AA is about addictions. It is NOT

So it starts out WRONG

Addiction Alternatives and AA

Five major differences between the philosophy of 12-step programs and the philosophy of alternative treatment options.

This comparison chart can help you see philosophical differences, but there is no right or wrong answer.

Addiction Alternatives: Addictions are learned behaviors with biological influences and cause physical alteration and neurological changes in the way the brain functions. People vary on their degree of biological propensities.

AA: Addictions are caused by a disease, a genetic inheritance from birth.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature

Addiction Alternatives: Not everyone with an alcohol problem needs to stop drinking forever.

AA: Everyone who has ever had a drinking problem or drug abuse history must forever maintain complete abstinence from all mood/mind altering substances.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature

Addiction Alternatives: You can learn to empower yourself.

AA: You are powerless over your addiction.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature, it has been misquoted and taken out of contex

Addiction Alternatives: Belief in a higher power or anything spiritual is completely optional.

AA: A spiritual approach, including belief in a higher power, is essential to overcome your addiction.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature, it has been misquoted and taken out of contex

Addiction Alternatives: You can learn how to overcome your addiction and move on to enjoy an addiction-free life.

AA: You must attend meetings for the rest of your life because you never overcome your addiction.

dont know where this one come from, NOT in AA litature, it has been misquoted and taken out of contex

Yeah yeah yeah, i go to AA

saved my live

continues to save it

the reason AA has a bad rap is misquoted bullshit by people that have NOT done thier homework

the watered down middle of the road AA and other recovery programs KILL people because they fail to identify the REAL ALKIE and give him/her a plan that WILL work 100% sucessfully

more later if i dont get banned

rodeoooo, Keep up the good work this post of yours is very good information for the Alcoholic who is trying to find recovery.

Cheers Tony

[robitusson]

Telltale sign of a cult:

The attributes of a cult are outlined by Charles Bufe.

1. Religious Orientation, Supernatural Beliefs An obvious AA trait as outlined by the necessity for belief in "Higher Power", an emphasis on prayer, and the overt emphasis on relgious spirituality in the program.

2. Irrationality, Rigidity, Anti-Intellectualism Exemplified by the reliance on 70 year old medical knowledge to diagnose drinkers and refusal to court "controversy" by allowing any new medical or scientific information to be used in the program or Big Book.

3. A Charismatic Leader Bill & Bob.

4. A Hierarchical, Authoritarian Structure Witness the monoploy AA has on the addition treatment industry and worldwide global dominance of alcoholism treatment.

5. Submission of the Individual to the “Will of God” Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

6. Dogmatism, the Ultimate Truth The Big Book is held to be almost sacred by AAers. Believing otherwise or even questioning otherwise leads from to outright dismissal, to abuse, to complete close-mindedness. No new information or research in alcoholism or addiction ius allowed to be even considered for inclusion in the program.

7. Separatism "Real alcoholics are different", is one of the beliefs instilled in new members to make sure they identify themselves as seperate from the rest. Those who do not fel different are "dry drunks" or "not real alkies".

8. Exclusivity (The Only Path To Salvation) Outright hostility to alterntive treatment options and questioning the AA doctrine is the standard reaction. It is vehmently maintained that AA is the only way and all other ways lead to insanity, institutions or death.

9. Self-Absorption (Primary Focus Is the Cult Itself) AA is not interested in the welfare of all alcoholics, only those that define themselves as members.

10. Economic Exploitation Not in the metings themselves perhaps, but without a doubt through the treatment industry.

11. Possessiveness (Go To Great Lengths to Retain Members) "90 meetings in 90 days", "If you think you need a meeting walk to one. If you don't think you need a meeting, run" Threats of death if the member leaves, etc. etc.

12. Mind Control Techniques; Intimidation

No cult on record has achieved such sophisticated means of mind-control.

Defining the addicted person as sick, incompetent, in denial, deserving of radical methods and forced humility, i.e., humiliation.

The confidence game. The use of legitimate authority symbols, e.g., doctors, psychologists, professional associations, etc., to support the use of the 12-step program.

The big lie. Massive denials of reality, such as “AA lends its name to no outside organization,” while virtually all treatment programs are run by professional AA’ers who forcefully indoctrinate participants in the 12-step program.

Steptalk, that polished explanation steppers provide when questioned about their odd beliefs and suspicious proclivities. “It isn’t religious, it’s spiritual.” “The 12 steps,” upon which survival is said to depend, “are only suggestions.”

Pathologizing inquiry, criticism, and dissent. The Program is divinely inspired, and may not be criticized. Persons who object to cult doctrine are ostracized, reprimanded, regarded as sick, diseased, in denial, in relapse, constitutionally incapable of honesty, or simply doomed. [Critics of AA are always angry, in denial, paranoid, sick people. /b]Skeptics and others who test the coherency of AA doctrine are advised, “Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth.”

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm

13. A Closed, All-Encompassing Environment (Physical) Treatment centres, daily meetings, etc.

14. Deceptive Recruitment Techniques (Deception; Set Up “Fronts”) Lies about the success of the program, the psudo-science of the AA disease model and the myth of the necessity of dependence on a "Higher Power".

15. Manipulation Through Guilt Moral inventories, endless meeting confesionals, confessionals to sponsors, etc.

16. Millennarianism (The End Is Near) Leave AA and you'll die.

17. Violence and Harassment Plenty of harassment on this forum. No violence.....yet.

[sbk]

Some people swear by AA and other people hate it. I don't know why anyone would expect it to be a complete cure in itself, or why other people claim that it is entirely useless. I think its just a case that AA works for some people and not for others.

Most sensible response so far

It seems to me that the most important thing for an alcoholic (and his/her family) is to get clean and sober. Any addiction is destructive not only to the addict but to their friends and family as well.

The how isn't as important as the results.

[Pattayatony]

Telltale sign of a cult:

The attributes of a cult are outlined by Charles Bufe.

1. Religious Orientation, Supernatural Beliefs An obvious AA trait as outlined by the necessity for belief in "Higher Power", an emphasis on prayer, and the overt emphasis on relgious spirituality in the program.

2. Irrationality, Rigidity, Anti-Intellectualism Exemplified by the reliance on 70 year old medical knowledge to diagnose drinkers and refusal to court "controversy" by allowing any new medical or scientific information to be used in the program or Big Book.

3. A Charismatic Leader Bill & Bob.

4. A Hierarchical, Authoritarian Structure Witness the monoploy AA has on the addition treatment industry and worldwide global dominance of alcoholism treatment.

5. Submission of the Individual to the “Will of God” Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

6. Dogmatism, the Ultimate Truth The Big Book is held to be almost sacred by AAers. Believing otherwise or even questioning otherwise leads from to outright dismissal, to abuse, to complete close-mindedness. No new information or research in alcoholism or addiction ius allowed to be even considered for inclusion in the program.

7. Separatism "Real alcoholics are different", is one of the beliefs instilled in new members to make sure they identify themselves as seperate from the rest. Those who do not fel different are "dry drunks" or "not real alkies".

8. Exclusivity (The Only Path To Salvation) Outright hostility to alterntive treatment options and questioning the AA doctrine is the standard reaction. It is vehmently maintained that AA is the only way and all other ways lead to insanity, institutions or death.

9. Self-Absorption (Primary Focus Is the Cult Itself) AA is not interested in the welfare of all alcoholics, only those that define themselves as members.

10. Economic Exploitation Not in the metings themselves perhaps, but without a doubt through the treatment industry.

11. Possessiveness (Go To Great Lengths to Retain Members) "90 meetings in 90 days", "If you think you need a meeting walk to one. If you don't think you need a meeting, run" Threats of death if the member leaves, etc. etc.

12. Mind Control Techniques; Intimidation

No cult on record has achieved such sophisticated means of mind-control.

Defining the addicted person as sick, incompetent, in denial, deserving of radical methods and forced humility, i.e., humiliation.

The confidence game. The use of legitimate authority symbols, e.g., doctors, psychologists, professional associations, etc., to support the use of the 12-step program.

The big lie. Massive denials of reality, such as “AA lends its name to no outside organization,” while virtually all treatment programs are run by professional AA’ers who forcefully indoctrinate participants in the 12-step program.

Steptalk, that polished explanation steppers provide when questioned about their odd beliefs and suspicious proclivities. “It isn’t religious, it’s spiritual.” “The 12 steps,” upon which survival is said to depend, “are only suggestions.”

Pathologizing inquiry, criticism, and dissent. The Program is divinely inspired, and may not be criticized. Persons who object to cult doctrine are ostracized, reprimanded, regarded as sick, diseased, in denial, in relapse, constitutionally incapable of honesty, or simply doomed. [Critics of AA are always angry, in denial, paranoid, sick people. /b]Skeptics and others who test the coherency of AA doctrine are advised, “Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth.”

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/ofcourse.htm

13. A Closed, All-Encompassing Environment (Physical) Treatment centres, daily meetings, etc.

14. Deceptive Recruitment Techniques (Deception; Set Up “Fronts”) Lies about the success of the program, the psudo-science of the AA disease model and the myth of the necessity of dependence on a "Higher Power".

15. Manipulation Through Guilt Moral inventories, endless meeting confesionals, confessionals to sponsors, etc.

16. Millennarianism (The End Is Near) Leave AA and you'll die.

17. Violence and Harassment Plenty of harassment on this forum. No violence.....yet.

sabaijai>> You said on 25-11>> Have to agree with Robitusson, all of this has been gone over in other threads here. Why not respond in the original threads rather than starting a new thread?

Yet you are both still carrying on with Robitusson making another post about it on 10-12 and your last post here being 30-11.

You are both the same you never stop putting AA down.

[PeaceBlondie]

My alcoholic son used to be addicted to AA meetings. He has an addictive personality. Sometimes he stays sober for months. Sometimes the steps don't work for him; the recovery program of AA fails him, or he fails it. There may be 98 other therapies, programs, alternatives that work. He stayed with his Baptist preacher cousin for a while; that worked.

AA has worked (in one form or another, for some time or permanently) for millions. AA methods have saved lives. Other people simply couldn't keep sober by AA 'treatment.' It doesn't work perfectly. It isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect.....except God.....hmmmmm.....

[Pattayatony]

My alcoholic son used to be addicted to AA meetings. He has an addictive personality. Sometimes he stays sober for months. Sometimes the steps don't work for him; the recovery program of AA fails him, or he fails it. There may be 98 other therapies, programs, alternatives that work. He stayed with his Baptist preacher cousin for a while; that worked.

AA has worked (in one form or another, for some time or permanently) for millions. AA methods have saved lives. Other people simply couldn't keep sober by AA 'treatment.' It doesn't work perfectly. It isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect.....except God.....hmmmmm.....

A good post Blondie, As most know on TV that I am a member of AA NO it dosnt work for everyone but it has worked for me for over 26 years only because I had to change ME not just stop drinking and that is what AA is all about showing the new ones that come that they can change their lives by not drinking one day at a time.

There are numerous ways people can stop drinking if it becomes a problem in their life but for me and I tried everything to stop but AA was the thing that worked for me. I think there over 2 Million sober members world wide so they must be doing something wright.

Its a shame this forum about quitting drinking was set up to help TV members who may have a drinking problem but its been turned into a lot of miss information from people who like to copy and paste rubbish they have found on the internet, What about some real life stories on here from people who have been through the mill and from the one that are finding hard to stop drinking.

Tony

[PeaceBlondie]

Pattayatony, there's nothing more convincing than personal testimony, even in a court trial. For some alcoholics, AA is the only program that works for them. I don't think that all the critics of AA are saying that AA often fails. They may be asking, apart from the personal anecdotes, what are the actual statistics of success of AA and other programs? How successful is each program? I don't know.

Nobody wants drunks to stay drunk. We all want them all to lead productive, happy lives.

[robitusson]

I think there over 2 Million sober members world wide so they must be doing something wright.

Its a shame this forum about quitting drinking was set up to help TV members who may have a drinking problem but its been turned into a lot of miss information from people who like to copy and paste rubbish they have found on the internet, What about some real life stories on here from people who have been through the mill and from the one that are finding hard to stop drinking.

Tony

Care to copy and paste where you got this 2 million figure from? This thread is specifically asking for factual info.

[sabaijai]

Pattayatony, there's nothing more convincing than personal testimony, even in a court trial.

Depends on the personal testimony. For those unaccustomed to rational thought, almost any personal testimony can be convincing, eg, personal testimony about alien abductions, oracle channeling, etc.

For rationalists, statistics from cross-sectional samples--or better yet, studies based on empirical research--are far more convincing than any personal testimony, hence the common use of expert witnesses in court cases. If the Alcoholism Movement were on trial, the testimony of expert witnesses (eg, professionals with extensive experience in addiction research and treatment) would likely carry more weight with most judges than the testimony of individuals diagnosed with alcohol disorders.

Nobody wants drunks to stay drunk. We all want them all to lead productive, happy lives.

Exactly. To quote the Dalai Lama, 'The existence of things is not in dispute. It is the manner in which they exist that must be clarified.'

[Chris Lawrence]

Right people, right place and right time is always helpful in treating people.

In the mid 90's I was doing some research work, going to a service in Liverpool, Australia. A new drug had come out to treat herion addicts, from Israel. Its action blocked the receptor in the brain that would give the high from the drug. It also blocked the receptor if the person needed pain medication; so if the person had an accident, my understanding was the drugs used to suppress pain would be affected.

Any way my point here is that the Doctor running the clinic was charging $7,500 for heroin and $9,500 for methadone. There were I think 2 nurses and 2 councilors with the doctor on staff. A lot of the maintenance of the client was done by the elderly parents. I say this because you have never seen terror as the eyes of a parent watching their son or daughter in rapid detox, clinging onto the hope that this treatment will work.

The end result was that the doctor showed me his register for treating over a 12-18 month period, having some 160 people go thru this process; the councilors were reaching for 12 step based help, as I was told; the program continued for another 6 months, then was closed down. I have no figures on the success of this program.

Similar NGO services had some bad results. People died during the rapid detox process.

I was also made aware of 2 young girls from the Illawarra, just south of Sydney that attended the Israel Clinic and came back cured, about a year prior to my research trip. They eventually got back into rehab within a very short space of time in Australia.

I talked to a colleague that had worked in the Drug and Alcohol field in Perth in the mid eighties; his comments were “the authorities come up with a clever plan every five or so years and the end result is that people die”.

Most of the research work that I have done is anecdotal, desk top or interview based; however if I am making a submission for funding monies then I need to back up my request with stats.

What works. I know some people are affected by others in different programs. I have seen results with 12 step programs, I have also seen results in other programs. The Health Department in NSW works on a harm minimisation program. Now that program has had great benefit in reducing the infection of HIV in the IV using population, and an overall affect on the general population. What this turns into is a genuine cost saving. This is what the politicians want.

The delivery in any service is its cost effectiveness. A service I worked in got people off the street and into living skills. This process was to get people job ready back into work within 8 weeks, training, computer knowledge, healthy eating, budgeting and saving and reconnecting with families. Although not promoted to funding service, this service relied on 12 step meetings for on going maintenance. We had some great results and many of our people were from the prison system.

I applied for a grant of $1.4 mil to expanded this program and run 24 hours. We didn't get the funding because we did not fit the criteria. This I labored on with the funding officer many times to ensure that we had a good chance. Funding went to another service in Perth. Funny that, showing a cost effective process is affected by personalities?

Maybe that is why when principles are in place personalities will not overtake.

These are only some of my experiences in a very hard road for some people. The initial statement was not made by me but by a North American Indian at an Indigenous conference in 1990. It has stayed with me because it is so simplistic in its application and meaning.

Wishing a very happy New Year for all.

[AlexLah]

I think Nr. 1 is the power of the mind.

If you really, really want to stop you can do it, from the moment you decide you will stop.

My father who drinked for more then 35 years stopped when my mother threathened him to leave him if he did not stop.

On advice of the docter he joined some help group, he stayed a few days and decided he could do it himself.

All the talking was nothing for him.

The docters there told him it would be very hard for him, but he stopped drinking the moment he made the decision.

A few years later he died but during the time he made the decision and his death he never ever touched a drop of alcohol again.

I guess it might help to have a very strong reason to stop.

My reason came today, I did a medical check up and found high levels of Cholestorol, SGOT and SGPT levels as well as high blood pressure.

High SGOT and SGTP levels indicate some form of liver damage.

I do not want to die yet, life is too beautyfull and interesting.

So I decided to stop drinking after tommorow and follow a healthy lifestyle for the rest of my life.

(Yes you can argue why not stop now but I have my reasons OK)

Now, that litlle voice in my head keep saying: Alex you have had lot's of good ideas while consuming alcohol and they really helped the company you are working for.

So I guess I just have to find another (non destructive) way to get those ideas.

Try not drinking for a week and discover how well you feel, try not drinking for a month and feel the difference in your wellbeing (Yes I did that as an experiment and was amazed).

For me it is clear, I will stop drinking alcohol as from this Sunday and start a healthy life with lots of excersise and healthy food.

Cheers all, I hope those of you that acknowledge their alcohol problem will do the same at some point of their life.

Remember if you really want, you can do, you do not need outside help, it is about you that really want it.

Cheers,

Alex

[ThaiPauly]

Good Luck Alex.

How are you doing after 2 days?

I stopped 10 days ago ...and its fukcing hard work......but I have to keep my eye on the prize

[ding]

As a westerner, I regularly suffer from the "think too mut" disease.

But as an AA member, I just know it works -when all else failed- and I tried every other option first.

22 years this month! Yay!

Lucky me, I'm a dummass!!! May I never graduate...

[Neeranam]

From hazleden

People who dismiss the disease theory of addiction often argue that use of alcohol or other drugs is a freely chosen behavior. How can a voluntary behavior become involuntary --that is, addictive -- over time?

Researchers who study the effects of drugs on the brain now have an answer. Alan I. Leshner, PhD, former director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), calls it the "oops phenomenon."

In a September 2000 article published by NIDA, Leshner explains this phenomenon with a common scenario. It starts with a person who chooses to experiment with an illegal drug, for example cocaine. He wants to use this drug just once, just to see what it feels like.

However, his cocaine use does not stop with "just once." In fact, he experiments a little more. Then he finds himself using cocaine weekly or even daily. Eventually this person sees that his cocaine use has too many negative consequences. He decides to quit, he wants to quit.

Unfortunately, Leshner explains, his brain has another agenda. His brain now craves cocaine as much as his body craves water. Oops -- he is now addicted, something our casual cocaine user never anticipated.

"Every drug user starts out as an occasional user, and that initial use is a voluntary and controllable decision," Leshner writes. "But as time passes and drug use continues, a person goes from being a voluntary to a compulsive drug user. This change occurs because over time, use of addictive drugs changes the brain -- at times in big dramatic toxic ways, at others in more subtle ways, but always in destructive ways that can result in compulsive and even uncontrollable drug use.

The founders of Alcoholics Anonymous presaged this idea decades ago. They maintained that they had an "allergy" to alcohol -- an abnormal biologic response to alcohol that made it impossible for them to stop with one drink. While modern researchers may dismiss the term "allergy," they can admit that those first members of AA got one thing right: Alcoholics and other addicts undergo physical change.

A recent report from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism ("Imaging and Alcoholism: A Window on the Brain," April 2000) details one aspect of this change. Autopsies consistently show that chronic alcoholics have lighter and smaller brains than other people of the same age and gender. Drinking literally shrinks the alcoholic's brain.

But the physical effects don't stop there. Drugs such as cocaine and alcohol also affect the internal workings of the brain, the very way that brain cells communicate.

Brain cells "talk" to each other by sending and receiving chemical messengers called neurotransmitters. This constant exchange of neurotransmitters affects every aspect of our thinking, feeling and behavior. Drugs interfere with this normal exchange in many ways. For example, drugs can stop the brain from making neurotransmitters. Drugs flood the brain with excess neurotransmitters or bind to brain cells in place of neurotransmitters.

In drug addiction, these changes take place in the brain's reward system. This brain pathway creates the feelings of pleasure that result when we eat our favorite meal or have an orgasm. For the person who experiences this kind of pleasure from drugs, trying to abstain from cocaine or alcohol can feel like trying to abstain from food or sex.

Nobody raises a glass of beer or snorts a line of cocaine and says, "Here's to addiction." What they want is a good time. The "oops phenomenon" reveals that first time can turn into the next time and the next, and that "casual" drug use can turn into a disease that requires professional help.

[Mobi]

Interesting article, Neeranam.

Question: Are these changes in the brain permanent?

If someoone manages to quit the addiction, what happens to the brain? Does it revert back to the state it used to be in, or does it at least partially 'repair' itself?

And if the brain dos not repair itself, what about the cravings? Do they eventually go away? And if so, why, if the brain remains permanently damaged?

Any ideas? Theories?

[jumnien]

Interesting article, Neeranam.

Question: Are these changes in the brain permanent?

If someoone manages to quit the addiction, what happens to the brain? Does it revert back to the state it used to be in, or does it at least partially 'repair' itself?

And if the brain dos not repair itself, what about the cravings? Do they eventually go away? And if so, why, if the brain remains permanently damaged?

Any ideas? Theories?

Coming up on 12 years clean and sober from crack cocaine/heroin and alcohol addiction I'd attest to the fact that the process of recovery has kept the cravings from returning. Pretty amazing stuff this recovery! Is my brain permanently damaged? Of course! That said, the human body has a remarkable ability to restore itself up to a point. There is no logical explanation for why I am something other than a human vegetable given my previous history. As long as I don't take that first drink or fix and keep doing on a daily basis what I do, I should be fine.

[sabaijai]

From hazleden

People who dismiss the disease theory of addiction often argue that use of alcohol or other drugs is a freely chosen behavior. How can a voluntary behavior become involuntary --that is, addictive -- over time?

Researchers who study the effects of drugs on the brain now have an answer. Alan I. Leshner, PhD, former director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), calls it the "oops phenomenon."

In a September 2000 article published by NIDA, Leshner explains this phenomenon with a common scenario. It starts with a person who chooses to experiment with an illegal drug, for example cocaine. He wants to use this drug just once, just to see what it feels like.

However, his cocaine use does not stop with "just once." In fact, he experiments a little more. Then he finds himself using cocaine weekly or even daily. Eventually this person sees that his cocaine use has too many negative consequences. He decides to quit, he wants to quit.

Unfortunately, Leshner explains, his brain has another agenda. His brain now craves cocaine as much as his body craves water. Oops -- he is now addicted, something our casual cocaine user never anticipated.

"Every drug user starts out as an occasional user, and that initial use is a voluntary and controllable decision," Leshner writes. "But as time passes and drug use continues, a person goes from being a voluntary to a compulsive drug user. This change occurs because over time, use of addictive drugs changes the brain -- at times in big dramatic toxic ways, at others in more subtle ways, but always in destructive ways that can result in compulsive and even uncontrollable drug use.

The founders of Alcoholics Anonymous presaged this idea decades ago. They maintained that they had an "allergy" to alcohol -- an abnormal biologic response to alcohol that made it impossible for them to stop with one drink. While modern researchers may dismiss the term "allergy," they can admit that those first members of AA got one thing right: Alcoholics and other addicts undergo physical change.

A recent report from the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism ("Imaging and Alcoholism: A Window on the Brain," April 2000) details one aspect of this change. Autopsies consistently show that chronic alcoholics have lighter and smaller brains than other people of the same age and gender. Drinking literally shrinks the alcoholic's brain.

But the physical effects don't stop there. Drugs such as cocaine and alcohol also affect the internal workings of the brain, the very way that brain cells communicate.

Brain cells "talk" to each other by sending and receiving chemical messengers called neurotransmitters. This constant exchange of neurotransmitters affects every aspect of our thinking, feeling and behavior. Drugs interfere with this normal exchange in many ways. For example, drugs can stop the brain from making neurotransmitters. Drugs flood the brain with excess neurotransmitters or bind to brain cells in place of neurotransmitters.

In drug addiction, these changes take place in the brain's reward system. This brain pathway creates the feelings of pleasure that result when we eat our favorite meal or have an orgasm. For the person who experiences this kind of pleasure from drugs, trying to abstain from cocaine or alcohol can feel like trying to abstain from food or sex.

Nobody raises a glass of beer or snorts a line of cocaine and says, "Here's to addiction." What they want is a good time. The "oops phenomenon" reveals that first time can turn into the next time and the next, and that "casual" drug use can turn into a disease that requires professional help.

The chemical processes in the progressive stages of substance addiction are quite obvious, no one disagrees about that. Whether we use the term 'disease' or 'disorder' is simple semantics and is a discussion already being conducted in another thread.

The issues here remain the same no matter what terms you use, i.e., what are the most successful models of rehab/recovery for alcohol addiction? If it's merely a chemically based problem, than pharmaceutical treatment would seem to be the best option overall. If it's primarily mental than self-therapy or psycho-therapy (whether private or group) would seem to be the way forward. It seems likely to be a mix of both.

AA's central notion is that alcohol addiction is a spiritual problem, that no 'real' alcohol addict can stop on his own or through pharmaceutical therapy; they must have AA. DThe founders self-defined the 'real' alcoholic as someone who cannot quit on his/her own so it's a sealed system where medical interference is unnecessary and deemed unproductive. That doesn't really sound like a disease model to me (despite AA claims).

[Mobi]

AA's central notion is that alcohol addiction is a spiritual problem, that no 'real' alcohol addict can stop on his own or through pharmaceutical therapy; they must have AA. Despite having no medical background the founders self-defined the 'real' alcoholic as someone who cannot quit on his/her own so it's a sealed system where medical interference is unnecessary and deemed unproductive. That doesn't really sound like a disease model to me (despite AA claims).

Although the title of this thread mentions the AA, I thought we had long ago agreed to disagree on the merits or otherwiose of the AA, as clearly there are fervent supporters and detractors who will never find common ground.

Neeranam's latest post, one month since the last on this thread, makes no mention of the AA and is carrying the debate forward in different directions.

He makes no claims, good or bad about the AA, but is merely posting a paper which debates the theory of addiction.

I just don't understand why you have to keep up your crusading against the AA when it's not even been raised as part of the current discussion.

It really is very peculiar, and IMHO totally beyond the pale.

[sabaijai]

AA's central notion is that alcohol addiction is a spiritual problem, that no 'real' alcohol addict can stop on his own or through pharmaceutical therapy; they must have AA. The founders self-defined the 'real' alcoholic as someone who cannot quit on his/her own so it's a sealed system where medical interference is unnecessary and deemed unproductive. That doesn't really sound like a disease model to me (despite AA claims).

Although the title of this thread mentions the AA, I thought we had long ago agreed to disagree on the merits or otherwiose of the AA, as clearly there are fervent supporters and detractors who will never find common ground.

Neeranam's latest post, one month since the last on this thread, makes no mention of the AA and is carrying the debate forward in different directions.

He makes no claims, good or bad about the AA, but is merely posting a paper which debates the theory of addiction.

I just don't understand why you have to keep up your crusading against the AA when it's not even been raised as part of the current discussion.

It really is very peculiar, and IMHO totally beyond the pale.

Just bringing the thread back on topic. I don't recall the agreement you're referring to, could you provide a link?

I'm not anti-AA, I'm anti-bad science. The research Neeranam quoted is excellent but is fundamentally at odds with the underlying AA philosophy, in my observation.

[Mobi]

I must correct what I said.

There is indeed a reference to the AA int Neeranam's post, namely:

The founders of Alcoholics Anonymous presaged this idea decades ago. They maintained that they had an "allergy" to alcohol -- an abnormal biologic response to alcohol that made it impossible for them to stop with one drink. While modern researchers may dismiss the term "allergy," they can admit that those first members of AA got one thing right: Alcoholics and other addicts undergo physical change.

But I don't think that justifies re-opening an argument that has been done to death in this forum.

Can't we just discuss alcoholism without invoking the merits or otherwise of the AA at every turn?

[Neeranam]

Neeranam's latest post, one month since the last on this thread, makes no mention of the AA and is carrying the debate forward in different directions.

He makes no claims, good or bad about the AA, but is merely posting a paper which debates the theory of addiction.

Exactly. This is not about AA

Mr Sabajai has AA on the brain!

[Mobi]

Just bringing the thread back on topic. I don't recall the agreement you're referring to, could you provide a link?

Such zeal is surely commendable - oh that it were applied to every thread.

Sabaijjai I give up - the agreement I was referring to was more of the spiritual kind - but I guess you'd never understand.

Back to the anti AA diatribe