PM Prayut says there must be political reforms before an election

[baboon]

1 hour ago, lucky11 said:

 

 'Sham referendum' - why was it a sham referendum? Oh!! I know, because the answer to the questions didn't match your ideology or bias on the matter.

 

 Would it still have been a sham referendum if they had voted no to the two questions? My bet is that you would deem it a fair referendum had this scenario been returned.

People win in casinos sometimes. This does not mean the odds don't favour the house. So in other words, yes it still would have been a sham.

[lucky11]

4 minutes ago, baboon said:

People win in casinos sometimes. This does not mean the odds don't favour the house. So in other words, yes it still would have been a sham.

 

 On this premise - all elections are a sham whatever and whichever the way they go!!

 

 All an election is, is the ultimate referendum on who they want to represent them.

 

 I think that democracy is a sham - I am much happier with the status quo as it stands!! 

[Winniedapu]

8 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 On this premise - all elections are a sham whatever and whichever the way they go!!

 

 All an election is, is the ultimate referendum on who they want to represent them.

 

 I think that democracy is a sham - I am much happier with the status quo as it stands!! 

 

Many  people are, but disappointment with democracy should not translate into support for a lack of democracy any more than disappointment with your garden should mean you give up living in houses. If you're disappointed in your garden, then fix what about it is disappointing. Nothing is perfect where people are concerned, but going to live in a cave so you don't see imperfection, isn't always the answer.

 

Winnie

 

[Srikcir]

12 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

I am much happier with the status quo as it stands

There are other options to democracy than a status quo.

You might also be happy with communism -  a one party system but with elections!

In such a system of governance even the military is constrained by its allegiance to the party.

[debate101]

1 hour ago, lucky11 said:

 

 misinformation (from those openly against it or with those concerned that their corruption gravy train was going to be left in the sidings) were thwarted, quite rightly so.

 

It could be argued, that failing to prevent the 'YES' side in the BREXIT referendum from distorting/massaging the facts led indirectly to the UK leaving Europe as they kept on hammering the point of how much we paid in and what we got out was distorted in favour of the EU.

 

 Did you not notice that those complaining about the charter were the self serving politicians (from both sides) that had the most to lose from this.

 

The people had the choice to vote yes or no to BOTH questions, correct? The question of appointed senators is self explanatory and the citizens of Thailand were happy for this to happen.

 

I hope that you are not going to rant on about politicians being fine, upstanding, honest officials elected to represent the interests of their community to the best of their abilities!! 

 

And how do you know it was misinformation? Have you read it yourself? Who decides what is accurate and what is not? Do you just trust the authorities at their word? Misinformation can be dealt with through open debate--there's no need for censorship. That's not a referendum--that's authoritarianism. We know better than all of you.

 

I've also got some bad news for you--the junta members are now, by definition, politicians. They've taken complete control of the country's political system. They have a support base and constituents to pay back. They are self-serving. They are not morally superior to anyone else--quite the contrary, in fact. Enticing or charming people into giving you power willingly is one step up, morally, from taking through force or the threat of force. Even buying an election, if it could be shown that that was done, is superior, morally to a military coup. Eternally back to square zero in the country's political progress.

 

The question of appointed senators was not self-explanatory in the least. The mealy-mouthed explanations of what people "intended" with their votes by those who have been manipulating the whole process from the start are utterly sickening.

 

[lucky11]

50 minutes ago, debate101 said:

 

And how do you know it was misinformation? Have you read it yourself? Who decides what is accurate and what is not? Do you just trust the authorities at their word? Misinformation can be dealt with through open debate--there's no need for censorship. That's not a referendum--that's authoritarianism. We know better than all of you.

 

I've also got some bad news for you--the junta members are now, by definition, politicians. They've taken complete control of the country's political system. They have a support base and constituents to pay back. They are self-serving. They are not morally superior to anyone else--quite the contrary, in fact. Enticing or charming people into giving you power willingly is one step up, morally, from taking through force or the threat of force. Even buying an election, if it could be shown that that was done, is superior, morally to a military coup. Eternally back to square zero in the country's political progress.

 

The question of appointed senators was not self-explanatory in the least. The mealy-mouthed explanations of what people "intended" with their votes by those who have been manipulating the whole process from the start are utterly sickening.

 

 

 So, in summary, this leaves me happy, as I favour diluting the politicians power to the point that they have little say in what happens regards the governance of Thailand and it is put in more honest and capable people's hands. On the other side of the equation you can bleat as much as you like and this changes nothing!!

 Who has got the better part of the deal? Me and the rest of the Thai people (even if they don't know it).

 The great thing is - this can now be orchestrated so that Thailand will have undergone democratic change (through free and fair elections) whilst maintaining overall control in how the country is run by keeping the politicians on a leash and disrupting their corrupt money making scams through watching them like hawks in a system where transparency curbs their greed urges!! Thaksin's desire to have a fully elected senate full of his stooges to spend money how he wishes and without scrutiny will become a fully appointed one - and what better than to have plenty of able Generals and other military filling those places!!

[Winniedapu]

3 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 So, in summary, this leaves me happy, as I favour diluting the politicians power to the point that they have little say in what happens regards the governance of Thailand and it is put in more honest and capable people's hands. On the other side of the equation you can bleat as much as you like and this changes nothing!!

 Who has got the better part of the deal? Me and the rest of the Thai people (even if they don't know it).

 The great thing is - this can now be orchestrated so that Thailand will have undergone democratic change (through free and fair elections) whilst maintaining overall control in how the country is run by keeping the politicians on a leash and disrupting their corrupt money making scams through watching them like hawks in a system where transparency curbs their greed urges!! Thaksin's desire to have a fully elected senate full of his stooges to spend money how he wishes and without scrutiny will become a fully appointed one - and what better than to have plenty of able Generals and other military filling those places!!

 

 

I love it when people who have poor arguments and a usually incomplete or fundamentally flawed understanding of the issues, claim fealty with 'the Thai people' as if having greater numbers of people who they claim support hem but in reality don'e even know who they are, somehow makes their superficial understanding of the issues more credible.

 

The Thai people do not support you, they don't even know who you are. And based on what you've said so far in this thread, I can't see that changing much.

 

Winnie

[lucky11]

1 minute ago, Winniedapu said:

 

 

I love it when people who have poor arguments and a usually incomplete or fundamentally flawed understanding of the issues, claim fealty with 'the Thai people' as if having greater numbers of people who they claim support hem but in reality don'e even know who they are, somehow makes their superficial understanding of the issues more credible.

 

The Thai people do not support you, they don't even know who you are. And based on what you've said so far in this thread, I can't see that changing much.

 

Winnie

 

 Support from the Thai people? Why would I need that?

 

 I'm just letting you know that I'm happy with the progress that has been made and stability that has been achieved so far under Prayut's leadership and for it to continue after free and fair elections have been held. America screamed out for democracy and they will get it in late 2017.

[lucky11]

5 minutes ago, Winniedapu said:

 

Well, that's good news, although I think you and I have different understandings of the word 'benign'. perhaps I just pay more attention and understand the motivations of the players better.

 

And I guess we'll see if they continue or not, perhaps you should substitute the word 'If' for the word 'That' in your last sentence, it would make you sound less like a

proselytizer

. My money is on not, at which time I expect you and like-minded folk (of whom there is a reducing few) will go strangely silent.

 

Winnie

 

 Of course they can claim democracy - that's what elections lead to, isn't it?

[Winniedapu]

12 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 Support from the Thai people? Why would I need that?

 

 I'm just letting you know that I'm happy with the progress that has been made and stability that has been achieved so far under Prayut's leadership and for it to continue after free and fair elections have been held. America screamed out for democracy and they will get it in late 2017.

 

 Support from the Thai people? Why would I need that?

 

Don't know, but then I didn't seek to imply it. It was you that said "Who has got the better part of the deal? Me and the rest of the Thai people (even if they don't know it)."

 

" I'm just letting you know that I'm happy with the progress that has been made and stability that has been achieved so far under Prayut's leadership and for it to continue after free and fair elections have been held. America screamed out for democracy and they will get it in late 2017."

 

Well thanks for that. All help is appreciated, whether asked for or not. As to the rest, I'm glad you're happy. I guess that some folk are easier to please than others. But I do wish you would stop it witlh the crystal ball gazing, you don't know if there'll be an election or not in 2017. Nor do I and nor does anyone, though I'm betting not.

 

Over and out, this is way too easy.

 

Winnie

 

Edited September 3, 2016 by Winniedapu

[lucky11]

3 minutes ago, Winniedapu said:

 

 Support from the Thai people? Why would I need that?

 

Don't know, but then I didn't seek to imply it. It was you that said "Who has got the better part of the deal? Me and the rest of the Thai people (even if they don't know it)."

 

" I'm just letting you know that I'm happy with the progress that has been made and stability that has been achieved so far under Prayut's leadership and for it to continue after free and fair elections have been held. America screamed out for democracy and they will get it in late 2017."

 

Well thanks for that. All help is appreciated, whether asked for or not. As to the rest, I'm glad you're happy. I guess that some folk are easier to please than others. But I do wish you would stop it witlh the crystal ball gazing, you don't know if there'll be an election or not in 2017. Nor do I and nor does anyone, though I'm betting not.

 

Over and out this is too easy.

 

Winnie

 

 

 Thanks for being glad that I'm happy - all I can say to you is "keep your chin up and try not to let it get you down"!!  

[Winniedapu]

10 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 Of course they can claim democracy - that's what elections lead to, isn't it?

 

Now you're just being silly. Here, if I say you win the discussion/debate, will you go away or will you continue to stalk me?

 

Winnie

[baboon]

13 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 Of course they can claim democracy - that's what elections lead to, isn't it?

Correct. Just as I can claim I am Jesus of Nazareth.

[debate101]

52 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 So, in summary, this leaves me happy, as I favour diluting the politicians power to the point that they have little say in what happens regards the governance of Thailand and it is put in more honest and capable people's hands. On the other side of the equation you can bleat as much as you like and this changes nothing!!

 Who has got the better part of the deal? Me and the rest of the Thai people (even if they don't know it).

 The great thing is - this can now be orchestrated so that Thailand will have undergone democratic change (through free and fair elections) whilst maintaining overall control in how the country is run by keeping the politicians on a leash and disrupting their corrupt money making scams through watching them like hawks in a system where transparency curbs their greed urges!! Thaksin's desire to have a fully elected senate full of his stooges to spend money how he wishes and without scrutiny will become a fully appointed one - and what better than to have plenty of able Generals and other military filling those places!!

 

Oh, I see. You're just a troll. Never mind then. I fail to believe an able-minded human could write this in good faith.

 

Edit: actually, scratch that. Your argument boils down to "I support the government, therefore, I support the government." I'm not sure its even an argument so much as self-serving naval gazing. 

Edited September 3, 2016 by debate101

[lucky11]

2 minutes ago, Winniedapu said:

 

Now you're just being silly. Here, if I say you win the discussion/debate, will you go away or will you continue to stalk me?

 

Winnie

 

 Stalking!!!!!! Since when has a continuing conversation between 2 posters been stalking?

 

 I thought that you said it was too easy - I didn't realise that you meant for me.

[lucky11]

6 minutes ago, baboon said:

Correct. Just as I can claim I am Jesus of Nazareth.

 

  Democracy is a means for the people to choose their leaders and to hold their leaders accountable for their policies and their conduct in office.

 

 

[baboon]

3 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

  Democracy is a means for the people to choose their leaders and to hold their leaders accountable for their policies and their conduct in office.

 

 

No one can come to the Father except through me.

[lucky11]

8 minutes ago, debate101 said:

 

Oh, I see. You're just a troll. Never mind then. I fail to believe an able-minded human could write this in good faith.

 

 I find it highly amusing that as soon as one gets the better of a debate then they are termed a troll!!

 

 I have also been accused of being a stalker - simply through retorting to people's posts with them replying to everyone of them!!

[lucky11]

2 minutes ago, baboon said:

No one can come to the Father except through me.

 

 Sorry!! you've lost me with this one. Does it have religious connotations? I fail to see what it has to do with the (a) definition of democracy.

[heybruce]

4 hours ago, lucky11 said:

 

 

1.  Return to TRT government under Thaksin.

 

or:

 

2.  Return to PTP government under Yingluck.

 

If these were the two questions in the referendum - sham or not a sham?

As I explained before, it would have greater legitimacy than the sham referendum that was a choice between military rule or military rule.

[heybruce]

46 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 Support from the Thai people? Why would I need that?

 

 I'm just letting you know that I'm happy with the progress that has been made and stability that has been achieved so far under Prayut's leadership and for it to continue after free and fair elections have been held. America screamed out for democracy and they will get it in late 2017.

"Support from the Thai people? Why would I need that?"

 

Because this is Thailand, it's their country, and they should have some say in how it is run.  You make this too easy.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, lucky11 said:

 

 So, in summary, this leaves me happy, as I favour diluting the politicians power to the point that they have little say in what happens regards the governance of Thailand and it is put in more honest and capable people's hands. On the other side of the equation you can bleat as much as you like and this changes nothing!!

 Who has got the better part of the deal? Me and the rest of the Thai people (even if they don't know it).

 The great thing is - this can now be orchestrated so that Thailand will have undergone democratic change (through free and fair elections) whilst maintaining overall control in how the country is run by keeping the politicians on a leash and disrupting their corrupt money making scams through watching them like hawks in a system where transparency curbs their greed urges!! Thaksin's desire to have a fully elected senate full of his stooges to spend money how he wishes and without scrutiny will become a fully appointed one - and what better than to have plenty of able Generals and other military filling those places!!

"...the governance of Thailand and it is put in more honest and capable people's hands." 

 

These are your good and capable people:

 

"While there are wide-ranging examples of Thai military units or individuals involved or complicit on organised crime, there is no concrete evidence to suggest that the government or the military see this connection as a serious problem or working actively to alleviate it. There is extensive evidence of the military's involvement in criminal networks associated with narcotics, prostitution, human trafficking, and illegal casinos. Military and paramilitary officers have been involved individually, at senior and lower ranking levels. Evidence suggests that security officials are illegally paid "protection" money to ensure that illegal mafia operations are allowed to continue. Tackling this issue is difficult given that those responsible for enforcing the law may also be implicated in illicit activities."  http://government.defenceindex.org/downloads/docs/thailand.pdf

 

Your definitely make this too easy.

[heybruce]

29 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

  Democracy is a means for the people to choose their leaders and to hold their leaders accountable for their policies and their conduct in office.

And you support a junta that is the exact opposite of that.

[lucky11]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

And you support a junta that is the exact opposite of that.

 

 I don't support democracy - especially the US version whereby corporate greed (at the expense of the people) rules the government!!

 

 That IS NOT democracy in any way shape or form.

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 I don't support democracy - especially the US version whereby corporate greed (at the expense of the people) rules the government!!

 

 That IS NOT democracy in any way shape or form.

No.  Because of censorship we can't describe the junta's true shape and form.  But it's very bad, and it will drag Thailand down to a bad place.  You seem happy with that.

[baboon]

1 minute ago, lucky11 said:

 

 I don't support democracy - especially the US version whereby corporate greed (at the expense of the people) rules the government!!

 

 That IS NOT democracy in any way shape or form.

Eons from now, we will reflect like never before as we are recreated by the galaxy. The reintegration of potentially is now happening worldwide.

It is time to take complexity to the next level - Think about it. 

[lucky11]

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

No.  Because of censorship we can't describe the junta's true shape and form.  But it's very bad, and it will drag Thailand down to a bad place.  You seem happy with that.

 

 Yes, I'm OK with what the junta has done/is doing. Would you rather see blood on the streets, farmer suicides, rampant corruption, enslavement, human trafficking, to name a few of what Thaksin's government allowed to happen. Prayut is tackling all of these head on and making good progress. 

[lucky11]

8 minutes ago, baboon said:

Eons from now, we will reflect like never before as we are recreated by the galaxy. The reintegration of potentially is now happening worldwide.

It is time to take complexity to the next level - Think about it. 

 

 I'd rather not, thank you!!

[heybruce]

31 minutes ago, heybruce said:

"...the governance of Thailand and it is put in more honest and capable people's hands." 

 

These are your good and capable people:

 

"While there are wide-ranging examples of Thai military units or individuals involved or complicit on organised crime, there is no concrete evidence to suggest that the government or the military see this connection as a serious problem or working actively to alleviate it. There is extensive evidence of the military's involvement in criminal networks associated with narcotics, prostitution, human trafficking, and illegal casinos. Military and paramilitary officers have been involved individually, at senior and lower ranking levels. Evidence suggests that security officials are illegally paid "protection" money to ensure that illegal mafia operations are allowed to continue. Tackling this issue is difficult given that those responsible for enforcing the law may also be implicated in illicit activities."  http://government.defenceindex.org/downloads/docs/thailand.pdf

 

Your definitely make this too easy.

 

11 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 Yes, I'm OK with what the junta has done/is doing. Would you rather see blood on the streets, farmer suicides, rampant corruption, enslavement, human trafficking, to name a few of what Thaksin's government allowed to happen. Prayut is tackling all of these head on and making good progress. 

Try rereading my earlier post.  Every crime you blame on elected governments has been committed by the military, and quite a few more.

[baboon]

17 minutes ago, lucky11 said:

 

 Yes, I'm OK with what the junta has done/is doing. Would you rather see blood on the streets, farmer suicides, rampant corruption, enslavement, human trafficking, to name a few of what Thaksin's government allowed to happen. Prayut is tackling all of these head on and making good progress. 

What starts out as triumph soon becomes corrupted into a manifesto of lust, leaving only a sense of chaos and the unlikelihood of a new reality.