Trial of SS medic who served at Auschwitz begins in Germany

[Ulysses G.]

3 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

When Germans were painting the Shop Windows of German Jews, in the Land of the Free in American, and in many States, Black People were not allowed to drink from the same water fountain as a white man was.

 

 

While very regrettable, not even close to rounding up people, putting them in concentration camps, starving them and gassing them to death. These are the people that you are suggesting be forgotten about.

[Ulysses G.]

4 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

I am not searching anything. You have made the claim, now back it up with evidence or retract your comments designed to incite hate.

 

 

Do not order others around. You are not a moderator.

 

By the way, if they have been around for a while, they have seen these posts too.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[Andaman Al]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

 

While very regrettable, not even close to rounding up people, putting them in concentration camps, starving them and gassing them to death. These are the people that you are suggesting be forgotten about.

Here you go again. Please highlight exactly where the member has implied that anyone being gassed in a concentration camp should be forgotten about. Mods is this really allowed?

[Andaman Al]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

 

Do not order others around. You are not a moderator.

How funny. If I had a thousand Baht for every time you have told a forum member to 'provide a link' or 'provide evidence' I could have a hell of a party this weekend. A very weak answer highlighting your totally incorrect position.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Andaman Al

[Ulysses G.]

1 minute ago, Andaman Al said:

Here you go again. Please highlight exactly where the member has implied that anyone being gassed in a concentration camp should be forgotten about. Mods is this really allowed?

 

Please quit putting words in my mouth. You are making false accusations.Brush up on your reading skills. I commented on this statement:

 

"When Germans were painting the Shop Windows of German Jews, in the Land of the Free in American, and in many States, Black People were not allowed to drink from the same water fountain as a white man was."

[Ulysses G.]

2 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

How funny. If I had a thousand Baht for every time you have told a forum member to 'provide a link' or 'provide evidence' I could have a hell of a party this weekend.

 

 

Does not apply here. Numerous members have seen those posts on this forum.

[Andaman Al]

3 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Please quit putting words in my mouth. You are making false accusations.Brush up on your reading skills. I commented on this statement:

 

"When Germans were painting the Shop Windows of German Jews, in the Land of the Free in American, and in many States, Black People were not allowed to drink from the same water fountain as a white man was."

OK, so how does that statement lead you to say:

 

10 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

While very regrettable, not even close to rounding up people, putting them in concentration camps, starving them and gassing them to death. These are the people that you are suggesting be forgotten about.

Where does the member even remotely 'imply' what you are stating?

Quote

These are the people that you are suggesting be forgotten about.

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Andaman Al

[GOLDBUGGY]

19 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

 

While very regrettable, not even close to rounding up people, putting them in concentration camps, starving them and gassing them to death. These are the people that you are suggesting be forgotten about.

I am not, or ever suggested, that these people who committed these major crimes be let go. In fact I have said so here many times already. It is just that you don't seem to understand what others have written. 

 

But if you are asking me that I think some 95 year old Medic, who was in the the Army 71 years ago, which this whole subject is all about, should be burnt at the stake just because he was in Auschwitz and one of his major crimes was looking after German Officers their, like Lancing a Boil from his Bum, then my answer is no. 

[Xircal]

On 9/13/2016 at 4:05 AM, xineohp said:

Noted within this article...  Nowhere does it state he was a nazi. Not all SS members were card carrying members of the nazi party.

Evidence has yet to be provided to the court that he did anything other than those stated duties.

How easy it is to make accusations and assume guilt by association. 

No doubt our American friend will not be able to contain himself and come back with the usual wornout response.

 

 

 

Kapos who were themselves prisoners but who collaborated with the Nazis were considered even more violent than the German guards. Same goes for the Ukranians. http://www.topix.com/forum/world/germany/T0J4FSVI7INBVRLBS

 

[Ulysses G.]

2 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

 

Where does the member even remotely 'imply' what you are stating?

 

 

"Even if you find him guilty, what are you going to do with him next? Give him Life in Prison, which in his case may add up to 6 months in a Medical Facility? Or send him to the Gallows and build a special trap door which can accommodate a man in a wheel chair when it opens?

 

Just a total waste of time and money at this stage of the game I think. "

 

He implies that this happened so long in the past, that it is too late to punish the SS soldier now. One of his posts that I quoted from and a cogent reply by Morch.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

Please stay on topic and refrain from making inflammatory remarks directed at other members.  

 

Members may post their opinion.   If you don't like it, you can ignore it.   You can even put them on ignore if you don't wish to see their posts.  

 

 

[JDGRUEN]

I think the real point to these trials is to show to the world that no matter how long after the deed, no matter how minor your personal act was in implementing such dastardly deeds, one will never escape scrutiny and eventually be caught and tried.  In other words it is not so much to punish Nazi exterminators as to deter people of the current times to think twice or even three times about what they are participating in....  The fact that participants in heinous acts have been hunted down and tried 65-70-75 years after the fact should put people on notice ... Humanity will not forget - you will tracked you down and you will be prosecuted - your entire life will be humiliated.  

[Pakboong]

3 hours ago, Scott said:

Please stay on topic and refrain from making inflammatory remarks directed at other members.  

 

Members may post their opinion.   If you don't like it, you can ignore it.   You can even put them on ignore if you don't wish to see their posts.  

 

 

Scott, you nailed it here. Discourse is simply a disagreement. To me, censorship can be looked upon as a win. I want those with whom I disagree to look  foolish, I do not want them censored.

[GOLDBUGGY]

8 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

 

While very regrettable, not even close to rounding up people, putting them in concentration camps, starving them and gassing them to death. These are the people that you are suggesting be forgotten about.

 

8 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

Please quit putting words in my mouth. You are making false accusations.Brush up on your reading skills. I commented on this statement:

 

"When Germans were painting the Shop Windows of German Jews, in the Land of the Free in American, and in many States, Black People were not allowed to drink from the same water fountain as a white man was."

Actually we differ again as I see you cutting out little bits and pieces of someone's full post and then twisted it to suit your own argument or agenda. Which in my view is you putting your words in their mouth. 

 

You twist and exaggerate everything! Nobody has made claim that the Racism in America against the Blacks was on equal footing as the Racism against the Jews in Germany at that time. Or that the treatment of Blacks was the same as the treatment of Jews. The point being made was the Racism ran rampant in many parts of the world during this time. Nothing more than that, or less. 

 

As somebody suggested, try to walk a mile in there shoes for a minute or two. Place yourself in Germany during this time as a 20 year old male recently drafted into the SS, as either in the Police or Prison Guard. That one night your Commanding Officer tells your team to go door to door and round up all the Jews you can find and load them into the trucks.

 

What are you going to do? Say No Way? Hardly! So now you should be tried for War Crimes and as you said? Especially when you were raised in a society and a home, to hate the Jews by then by repeated Brainwashing. The Media that wrote this daily Hate Propaganda against the Jews and over many years, almost did as much harm as pulling the trigger. On the last days Goebbles committed suicide, but has he not done this,  he would have been tried for War Crimes anyway.

 

As already mention here numerous times many of the crimes carried out in the Concentration Camps weren't even carried out by Germans. In "Treblinka" which is also in Poland, perhaps the worst of the worst was "Ivan the Terrible". He wasn't a German at all and was thought to be a Ukrainian. Bring him to trial now and I am sure you won't get any argument of giving him a Long Prison Sentence or the Death Penalty. . 

[GOLDBUGGY]

1 hour ago, JDGRUEN said:

I think the real point to these trials is to show to the world that no matter how long after the deed, no matter how minor your personal act was in implementing such dastardly deeds, one will never escape scrutiny and eventually be caught and tried.  In other words it is not so much to punish Nazi exterminators as to deter people of the current times to think twice or even three times about what they are participating in....  The fact that participants in heinous acts have been hunted down and tried 65-70-75 years after the fact should put people on notice ... Humanity will not forget - you will tracked you down and you will be prosecuted - your entire life will be humiliated.  

I agree with what you are saying. My only argument has been that if you are going to bring someone to Trial, which may include the Death Sentence or Life in Prison, make sure your list of suspects is worthy of such a sentence. Hunting down  a person in his 90's and putting him on Trial, only because he was a Guard, or Radio Operator, or Medic in a Prison Camp to me is not enough grounds. 

 

It is interesting in what the US Judge wrote about this after he thought he had sent Ivan the Terrible to Israel for his trial.

 

"Gilbert S. Merritt Jr., judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, had this to say about the OSI's handling of the Demjanjuk case: "Today we know that they — the OSI, the prosecution in the case and the State Department — lied through their teeth. Even then they knew without a doubt that Demjanjuk was not Ivan the Terrible, but they hid the information from us. I am sorry that I did not have the information at the time. If I did, we would never have ruled in favor of his extradition to Israel." Merritt claimed that what happened in his courtroom was "nothing short of a witch hunt. In retrospect, it reminds me of the witch trials in Salem, Massachusetts 300 years ago. The prosecution, counseled by the OSI, presented documents and witnesses whose testimony was based on emotions and hysteria, but not hard evidence. To my regret, we believed them. This instance is a prime example of how justice can be distorted."

  

[Ulysses G.]

3 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

 

Nobody has made claim that the Racism in America against the Blacks was on equal footing as the Racism against the Jews in Germany at that time. Or that the treatment of Blacks was the same as the treatment of Jews.

 

You certainly did imply it. If you do not want people quoting you, do not post such ridiculous statements. I quoted you exactly:

 

10 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

"When Germans were painting the Shop Windows of German Jews, in the Land of the Free in American, and in many States, Black People were not allowed to drink from the same water fountain as a white man was."

 

[GOLDBUGGY]

9 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

You certainly did imply it. If you do not want people quoting you, do not post such ridiculous statements. I quoted you exactly:

 

 

No! Actually what you did by snipping a small piece off my total post was read one line in a paragraph, then twisted it to make it look like what you wanted it to say. 

 

I won't go into making "ridiculous statements" as many others here have already blasted you for making them. 

[Ulysses G.]

8 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

No! Actually what you did by snipping a small piece off my total post was read one line in a paragraph, then twisted it to make it look like what you wanted it to say. 

 

 

I did not make it say anything. YOU did. It is an exact quote. 

 

 

[geriatrickid]

19 hours ago, xineohp said:

By my calculation this man was 19 years old at the time. I doubt if there would be many amongst us, even in today's military forces, who could be classed as both knowing their own mind and having the strength of character to oppose something they knew to be wrong. At that age mental conditioning or 'brain washing' is par for the course within any military organisation.

 

The accused is 95 years old, and is approaching 96. The crimes occurred in late 1944. This was approximately 72 years ago. Court documents describe  the accused as  age 24 at the time, while even a  basic rudimentary calculation puts him at age 23,  That was relatively old for that period. members of my family volunteered for the King's service at age 17 and 18 and were flying in bomber command within 6 months. Have a look at the tombstones in Normandy of the people who died so that you could defend a  a Nazi war criminal: The typical age was 19-21. They had  enough strength of character to make the ultimate sacrifice, and unlike the Germans they were not raping, pillaging and torturing civilians. Nor were they running extermination camps where civilians were slowly  starved and worked to death.

 

Don't use the brain washing crap of an excuse with me because I  was fortunate to meet some of the Germans who had resisted the Nazis. One side of my family lived under the Japanese occupation of  Asia and there were several German families who neither supported the Nazis or the forced deportations of refugees.  When you make  your excuse you insult and push aside the courage of those people who took a stand. You have no clue about the Germans who said no, do you?

 

 

 

19 hours ago, xineohp said:

 

[geriatrickid]

32 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

I agree with what you are saying. My only argument has been that if you are going to bring someone to Trial, which may include the Death Sentence or Life in Prison, make sure your list of suspects is worthy of such a sentence. Hunting down  a person in his 90's and putting him on Trial, only because he was a Guard, or Radio Operator, or Medic in a Prison Camp to me is not enough grounds. 

 

It is interesting in what the US Judge wrote about this after he thought he had sent Ivan the Terrible to Israel for his trial.

 

"Gilbert S. Merritt Jr., judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, had this to say about the OSI's handling of the Demjanjuk case: "Today we know that they — the OSI, the prosecution in the case and the State Department — lied through their teeth. Even then they knew without a doubt that Demjanjuk was not Ivan the Terrible, but they hid the information from us. I am sorry that I did not have the information at the time. If I did, we would never have ruled in favor of his extradition to Israel." Merritt claimed that what happened in his courtroom was "nothing short of a witch hunt. In retrospect, it reminds me of the witch trials in Salem, Massachusetts 300 years ago. The prosecution, counseled by the OSI, presented documents and witnesses whose testimony was based on emotions and hysteria, but not hard evidence. To my regret, we believed them. This instance is a prime example of how justice can be distorted."

  

 

The only one distorting the facts is you as you desperately attempt to find a rationale to support your defense of an SS concentration camp killer.  Why would you even attempt to use the  Demjanjuk case as a defense in this case? They are unrelated. Demjanjuk lied to the US authorities when he immigrated. He concealed his wartime activity. There is no dispute that he  served in the German military, The dispute was as to whether or  not he was Ivan the Terrible. If you want to cite Judge Merritt, then why not  state that the master appointed to lead the inquiry found no wrongdoing. You intentionally leave that out. Judge Merritt believed that there had been a wrongdoing. His own inquiry did not support that assertion.  You do realize that in the USA that the Supreme Court is the final authority don't you? Well, your Ukrainian hero didn't get very far with that court either when he made an appeal as to his  deportation and denaturalization because they told him to go away.

 

What's next? Will the collection of nazi sympathizers  get their own separate subforum where they can blame the juden for everything and deny that there were concentration camps?  I met some of the  veterans who liberated the concentration camps. The US servicemen in particular had to carry the burden with them because they had made more of an effort to take care of the victims and more of the GIs saw the carnage up close. I even met  a concentration camp survivor. He had been an RAF pilot who had been captured at the end of the war. He ended up in  a concentration camp during transit and boy did he detest the people who  had worked in those camps and the people who lived near the camps. He told me that the stench of death was so heavy that it was unavoidable.  

 

it just boggles and stuns me that anyone other than a nazi supporter would mount such  a protracted defense as some people do here. Obviously  some of them didn't have  family members who volunteered for active service or have never been to some of the war graves. I suggest you go and look. Read out the names of some of those lads. Killed by the people you so staunchly defend. In many cases shot in the back or executed as POWs as was the case of one of my relatives. Those are the people you are defending.

 

 

[Ulysses G.]

1 minute ago, geriatrickid said:

 

The only one distorting the facts is you as you desperately attempt to find a rationale to support your defense of an SS concentration camp killer.

 

 

Hear, hear. 

[GOLDBUGGY]

Interesting to see who they are bringing to a War Crimes Trial these days. Pretty well anyone who worked in a Death Camp. Non really accused of committing a crime except being charged for being an accessory, as they are thought to have known these crimes were committed.

 

The first on the list was Demjanjuk. He was originally thought to be Ivan the Terrible. He was extradited from the US to Israel, which the US Presiding Judge later regretted. When they realized they made a mistake and he wasn't Ivan the Terrible they deported him back to Germany where he was charged again for a different War Crime. This time for being an SS Guard in a different Death Camp.  If yuo first don't succeed then try and try again. Although no evidence was presented that he committed any specific crime at all he was still sentenced to 5 years in prison. He died before his Appeal could be heard.

 

The other 5 on the Most Wanted List all worked in Auschwitz. One is this 95 year old Medic, another one was an Bookkeeper, another one was a Radio Operator, and another one was a Cook. The last one "Ernest Tremmel" died a week before his trial. He was involved by processing the arrivals of prisoners. Since he was only 19 years old at this time, they were going to try him under Juvenile Criminal Law.

 

Yeah! I guess this US Appeals Judge was right. That this was nothing more than a Witch Hunt.    

 

 

[GOLDBUGGY]

23 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

 

The only one distorting the facts is you as you desperately attempt to find a rationale to support your defense of an SS concentration camp killer.  Why would you even attempt to use the  Demjanjuk case as a defense in this case? They are unrelated. Demjanjuk lied to the US authorities when he immigrated. He concealed his wartime activity. There is no dispute that he  served in the German military, The dispute was as to whether or  not he was Ivan the Terrible. If you want to cite Judge Merritt, then why not  state that the master appointed to lead the inquiry found no wrongdoing. You intentionally leave that out. Judge Merritt believed that there had been a wrongdoing. His own inquiry did not support that assertion.  You do realize that in the USA that the Supreme Court is the final authority don't you? Well, your Ukrainian hero didn't get very far with that court either when he made an appeal as to his  deportation and denaturalization because they told him to go away.

 

What's next? Will the collection of nazi sympathizers  get their own separate subforum where they can blame the juden for everything and deny that there were concentration camps?  I met some of the  veterans who liberated the concentration camps. The US servicemen in particular had to carry the burden with them because they had made more of an effort to take care of the victims and more of the GIs saw the carnage up close. I even met  a concentration camp survivor. He had been an RAF pilot who had been captured at the end of the war. He ended up in  a concentration camp during transit and boy did he detest the people who  had worked in those camps and the people who lived near the camps. He told me that the stench of death was so heavy that it was unavoidable.  

 

it just boggles and stuns me that anyone other than a nazi supporter would mount such  a protracted defense as some people do here. Obviously  some of them didn't have  family members who volunteered for active service or have never been to some of the war graves. I suggest you go and look. Read out the names of some of those lads. Killed by the people you so staunchly defend. In many cases shot in the back or executed as POWs as was the case of one of my relatives. Those are the people you are defending.

 

 

What Boggles me is someone who is so full of hate for someone else only because they may have a different point of view of things. Because they are different than you. Sounds like Racism to me.

 

Lets get something straight here and educate you a little bit first. Being a Nazi doesn't mean you were part of a Death Squad. The SS had Death Squads and to be in the SS you had to be a Nazi. But a lot of Nazis never even held a gun during the war. Being a Nazi meant that you belonged to a Political Party, like being a Democrat or Republican in the United States. There is no War Crime for being a Nazi. In fact after the war there were 8 Million Nazis in Germany Registered. 

 

Now that you know the difference between being a Nazi, and being on the Death Squad with the SS, nobody here is defending War Criminals. These are just voices you are hearing in your head. Here is the latest list of War Criminals you so much despise for there horrible crimes during the war. 

 

http://www.thepeterboroughexaminer.com/2016/06/19/last-nazi-trial-mixed-success-with-prosecutions

 

If we are going to start charging cooks only because they were in the army and assigned to a death camp, maybe we should give some thought into charging people who put Japanese Americans in camps in America only because they had a Japanese Ancestry? 

 

Nobody is claiming War Criminals should get off, but somewhere along the line you have to draw a line in the sand and charge the ones that cross it. A Cook or a Radio Operator does not cross that line in my view. So try to control your temper. 

 

   

[xineohp]

11 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

"Lets get something straight here and educate you a little bit first......."

Isn't it an indictment as to a persons character when one commits to print words suh as tbese.

[dick dasterdly]

4 hours ago, JDGRUEN said:

I think the real point to these trials is to show to the world that no matter how long after the deed, no matter how minor your personal act was in implementing such dastardly deeds, one will never escape scrutiny and eventually be caught and tried.  In other words it is not so much to punish Nazi exterminators as to deter people of the current times to think twice or even three times about what they are participating in....  The fact that participants in heinous acts have been hunted down and tried 65-70-75 years after the fact should put people on notice ... Humanity will not forget - you will tracked you down and you will be prosecuted - your entire life will be humiliated.  

Re. the emboldened part, only if you are on the losing side.....  And even then,  it has to be remembered that some German war criminals had information and skills valued by the Americans - and so instead of being tried as war criminals, were brought to America and employed......  Other 'allied' countries probably did the same.

 

Unfortunately these trials haven't acted as a deterrent - hence the many atrocities that have occurred since.

 

If there is any evidence that this man is genuinely a war criminal (rather than a soldier who had no choice other than to follow orders), then I'm at the front of the queue in believing that he deserves to be punished.

 

Which is why I'm waiting for evidence and still wondering why the judge is not allowing witness testimony from survivors???! 

[GOLDBUGGY]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

 

The only one distorting the facts is you as you desperately attempt to find a rationale to support your defense of an SS concentration camp killer.  Why would you even attempt to use the  Demjanjuk case as a defense in this case? They are unrelated. Demjanjuk lied to the US authorities when he immigrated. He concealed his wartime activity. There is no dispute that he  served in the German military, The dispute was as to whether or  not he was Ivan the Terrible. If you want to cite Judge Merritt, then why not  state that the master appointed to lead the inquiry found no wrongdoing. You intentionally leave that out. Judge Merritt believed that there had been a wrongdoing. His own inquiry did not support that assertion.  You do realize that in the USA that the Supreme Court is the final authority don't you? Well, your Ukrainian hero didn't get very far with that court either when he made an appeal as to his  deportation and denaturalization because they told him to go away.

 

What's next? Will the collection of nazi sympathizers  get their own separate subforum where they can blame the juden for everything and deny that there were concentration camps?  I met some of the  veterans who liberated the concentration camps. The US servicemen in particular had to carry the burden with them because they had made more of an effort to take care of the victims and more of the GIs saw the carnage up close. I even met  a concentration camp survivor. He had been an RAF pilot who had been captured at the end of the war. He ended up in  a concentration camp during transit and boy did he detest the people who  had worked in those camps and the people who lived near the camps. He told me that the stench of death was so heavy that it was unavoidable.  

 

it just boggles and stuns me that anyone other than a nazi supporter would mount such  a protracted defense as some people do here. Obviously  some of them didn't have  family members who volunteered for active service or have never been to some of the war graves. I suggest you go and look. Read out the names of some of those lads. Killed by the people you so staunchly defend. In many cases shot in the back or executed as POWs as was the case of one of my relatives. Those are the people you are defending.

 

 

Another thing! This Medic is not charged for Murder. There is nothing tying him to killing anyone. He is charge for an accessory to murder which is not the same thing at all. 

 

Yes, Demjanjuk did lie to immigration to get into the United States. Gosh! I wonder how many others committed such a heinous crime like that. In fact he died before his Appeal and as a result was never convicted of any crime. He also worked and supported his family in the United States as an auto worker for many years. Chances are, and had he not been tied to being someone who he was not (Ivan the Terrible) nobody would have known and even if they did find out he would have been allowed to stay.

 

Judge Merritt was the Appeal Judge in this case. These were his views. He stated that the Prosecution and the State Department lied through their teeth which effected his decision. Demjanjuk had made an Appeal and since he was the Appeal Judge, well of course he lost this. The Judge said why.

 

By the time he made his Appeal for his denaturalization and deportation he was already a Convicted Felon. He had a Criminal Record now.. So naturally they turned down his request to stay.  He is not my Hero as you claim. I just don't think he got a fare deal and neither did the Appeal Judge. The Highest Court in the Land, the Supreme Court, does not try ever case that comes along. In fact they turn down many case and many more than they review. To get to the Supreme Court it has to be landmark decision or gross misjustice. 

 

So the Retired Auto Worker lied to Immigration to get into the United States. But it is odd that "Wernher Von Braun didn't have to lie. You remember him don't you? He was the guy behind the V-1 Rocket and also invented the V-2 Rocket. Those unmanned aircraft loaded with bombs that bombed London and killed a bunch of innocent civilians their. 

 

No! He did not have to lie to get into the United States. Even though he was a member of the Nazi Party but also was in the SS. They welcomed him and also 1,500 other German Scientists, Technicians, and Engineers to the United States and gave them all nice full time jobs.

 

Seems to me that when you are making a Rocket with a Bomb attached to it, knowing full well it will be used to target and kill civilians, as the accuracy on them were terrible, then this should be a War Crime to. But then it is better to keep quiet about that and instead arrest some retired auto worker, or radio operator, of some medic,, or cook, to show the public you have not forgot these War Criminals. Hog Wash!

 

Surely the man who makes rockets carrying bombs to be uses to kill civilians and was using slave labor to build them, is no better than a cook in a Concentration Camp. If you have laws in place then they should be just and the arrest,  conviction, and punishment should be the same for all.  If it is not then.....it is just a Witch Hunt!     

[Morch]

16 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

It all depends on how you read these posts. I never read one post here where people were making any excuses for someone who carried out serious war crimes here or defending a terrorist. Islamic or not. I also think we all agreed that if this person was a High Ranking Nazi Official, who was directly involved in these war crimes, that he should be brought to justice. 

 

Were we differ is on to what extent a war crime was committed, or even if it was committed. Does a Medic who served in the summer of 1944 in Auschwitz who's main job was the care of German Solders qualify as a war criminal? As one poster blatantly posted recently, he felt that anyone who worked in a Nazi Death Camp should be brought to justice and regardless of his involvement. I agree that this seems to be the going trend these days, but is that justice? 

 

They paint a picture that this person had a choice in what he did. Really? What choice does one have who is in the army, drafted or otherwise, and during war time? You go where you are sent and where they feel you are best qualified for and needed. If you refuse orders you are punished and sometimes to the point of death. They were mere puppets in some big political game! 

 

To say they should be charged for war crimes, because they were assigned to the Death Camps is on equal footing as say that all Vietnam Vets, who were Drafted, and forced to go to Vietnam to fight a war, should now all be charged for war crimes. Especially the ones that volunteered as they were proud to serve their country.

 

Nonsense! War is War! Many times innocent people get hurt then! The Survivors of WWII are not just the people who survived the "Holocaust". Many American, British, and French Solders who survived this ugly war, and did and saw things no human should ever have to, are still having nightmares about this today and still refuse to talk about it.

 

Personally I think it is time they gave this whole thing a big rest. Give all those Survivors (Hero's) some peace and quiet in their remaining golden years. Bringing this crap up after 71 years only adds fuel to the fire that will remain burning the rest of their lives anyway.   

 

Once again you post as if you have exact knowledge regarding Zafke's duties and situation. Considering the trial is being delayed and that only charges were read, everything that you post on this is guesswork, not necessarily facts.

 

The repeated claims of "no choice" are bogus. There are always some people making these choices, regardless of the consequences.  While not the norm in human behavior, these cases show that people can aspire to higher morals. There were Germans who did not capitulate to the rise of Nazism, there were those that defied it in secret. Again, not the norm - but it cannot be said that there were no options. Another bogus claim is that disobedience would have led directly to death. As was asserted in a previous post - this might have been the case if direct disobedience was involved. There is nothing to suggest that this was the only form of resistance possible or that other ways of avoiding the situation were not available.

 

Those who served in the Nazi death camps are NOT on equal footing with Vietnam War veterans. There was no genocide in Vietnam, no organized mass murder of a people. If you insist on playing with moral equivalents, a Vietnam War veteran would be more similar to an ordinary German soldier. The prisoners an the Nazi death camps were not simply innocents hurt in war, they were specifically targeted, imprisoned and murdered. This wasn't a war, it was slaughter.

 

While you feel that the "whole thing" should be forgotten, the OP indicates that the survivors you seem to care about  are rather upset by not having their voice heard. Who are you to judge what is best for them?

[Morch]

16 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

So this Medic's War Crimes are said to be: " Prosecutors allege that Zafke's unit was involved in putting gas into gas chambers to kill Jews and others, screening blood and other samples from hospitalized women prisoners, and otherwise helping the camp run by treating SS guard personnel."

 

Since when was screening blood samples of prisoners and treating SS Guards as a Medic considered a War Crime? As to being involved in putting gas into gas chambers Zafke denies doing this. I tend to believe him as this job would below his pay grade even for a Private, and it would not be his job to do so. They would use Polish or Ukrainian Prisoners to do this for an little extra at meal time. 

 

But if it is proved he was forced to do this then this this tells me how low he was in the Ranking to have such a terrible job. I can't see anyone enjoy that job by climbing a roof to dropping in gas pellets? I wouldn't want a job like that on my worst day.

 

Oh Well! The German Prosecutors have a Bigger Fish to fry which they are waiting to go to Trial.soon They only gave her name as "Helma M". She is also 92 years old now. Her War Crimes are for being a 20 year old Radio Operator for the Commandant at Auschwitz. I can't hardly wait for them to catch the Cleaning Lady so they can really throw the book at her. Get Real!  

 

According to the OP, the denial was by Zafke's attorney, not Zafke himself. Further, it was not a denial of specific allegations but a general one. Either you are better informed on the details of the case, or this is yet another example of guess work and unfounded assertions. Screening blood samples is not a war crime under most circumstances, but somehow doubt that the SS were providing benevolent medical care for prisoners.

 

There is no indication that he was "forced", this is simply an attempt to suggest that he either didn't do any wrong, and that even if he did, it was not by choice.

[dick dasterdly]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Once again you post as if you have exact knowledge regarding Zafke's duties and situation. Considering the trial is being delayed and that only charges were read, everything that you post on this is guesswork, not necessarily facts.

 

The repeated claims of "no choice" are bogus. There are always some people making these choices, regardless of the consequences.  While not the norm in human behavior, these cases show that people can aspire to higher morals. There were Germans who did not capitulate to the rise of Nazism, there were those that defied it in secret. Again, not the norm - but it cannot be said that there were no options. Another bogus claim is that disobedience would have led directly to death. As was asserted in a previous post - this might have been the case if direct disobedience was involved. There is nothing to suggest that this was the only form of resistance possible or that other ways of avoiding the situation were not available.

 

Those who served in the Nazi death camps are NOT on equal footing with Vietnam War veterans. There was no genocide in Vietnam, no organized mass murder of a people. If you insist on playing with moral equivalents, a Vietnam War veteran would be more similar to an ordinary German soldier. The prisoners an the Nazi death camps were not simply innocents hurt in war, they were specifically targeted, imprisoned and murdered. This wasn't a war, it was slaughter.

 

While you feel that the "whole thing" should be forgotten, the OP indicates that the survivors you seem to care about  are rather upset by not having their voice heard. Who are you to judge what is best for them?

And yet again you're showing your bias....

 

I'd particularly refer you to your first paragraph.

 

At the moment none of us "have exact knowledge regarding Zafke's duties and situation".

 

Which is why some of us need to know more before convicting, whereas you are happy to immediately convict - despite having no " exact knowledge regarding Zafke's duties and situation" 

 

 

[Morch]

16 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

 

So I pose you a dichotomy. What should be done then (when they were still living) with every Pilot and crew member from the UK and US that followed Air Vice Marshall Harris' orders for the fire bombing of Dresden and many other cities? These were not Military targets but the carpet bombing of hundreds of thousands of German civilians. Is that worthy that any remaining Pilots or crew still alive should be made to stand trial for war crimes? War crimes only belong to the losers. Now as a British Air Force Pilot and one who has been involved in active service on many occasions I do not take the subject lightly. Had we 'lost' the war then AVM 'Bomber' Harris would have been forever remembered as a war criminal and would no doubt have been hanged by the end of the 40's.

 

This trial concerns a 'boy' not even old enough to be served a beer in the US. Some of you say he knew what he was doing and he should have refused!! I mean seriously!! Are people here that filled with hate they lose all sense of rationality? If he refused a direct order from an SS Officer he would have had a bullet through the head on the spot, instantly with 100% certainty. Do you all think these young boys enjoyed what they were doing? They probably thought they were in a living hell and there was only one way to survive...do as ordered. I would love you all to walk a mile in that boys shoes when he was 19 and posted as a guard to a concentration camp. If you all followed your own couch potato advice that you give on here you would never have lived to the age of 20.

 

While deplorable,, I do not see these raids as equivalent to the Nazi death camps. The air raids were conducted within the scope of things that were considered acceptable at the time (well, perhaps "acceptable" is not quite the word). They can be compared with the targeting of London, and other cities by German rockets. The Nazi death camps, on the other hand, were something of a different order altogether.

 

Unless mistaken, the pilots and crews who took part in the raids were not accused of war crimes, and so were the German soldiers operating the rockets which rained on Britain. As posted earlier, the "following orders" argument (or defense) does carry some weight, more a question of how far it can be stretched. Similarly, things taking place during warfare tend to be given more slack than those carried out under other circumstances.

 

He was not a boy, but a soldier. There is no accurate age at which moral responsibility can be claimed, hence most systems go with legal definitions. I did not say he should have refused, each man makes his own choices. My point was simply that the choice did exist. There was not even the suggestion that direct disobedience was the only way.  No idea if he enjoyed his duties, and the same goes for other soldiers - guess there were all sorts.

 

You post as if no 19 yo soldier ever disobeyed an order, or that they were all executed for it. Doubt this was the case even with regard to WW2, certain beyond doubt that this would be an incorrect statement with regard to more recent times.