Trial of SS medic who served at Auschwitz begins in Germany

[Morch]

15 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

I am not, or ever suggested, that these people who committed these major crimes be let go. In fact I have said so here many times already. It is just that you don't seem to understand what others have written. 

 

But if you are asking me that I think some 95 year old Medic, who was in the the Army 71 years ago, which this whole subject is all about, should be burnt at the stake just because he was in Auschwitz and one of his major crimes was looking after German Officers their, like Lancing a Boil from his Bum, then my answer is no. 

 

You do realize that even if found guilty, he is not going to be "burnt at the stake" (or any of the modern forms of execution, for that matter)?

 

The punishment is probably the least important issue in this trial.

[Morch]

7 hours ago, JDGRUEN said:

I think the real point to these trials is to show to the world that no matter how long after the deed, no matter how minor your personal act was in implementing such dastardly deeds, one will never escape scrutiny and eventually be caught and tried.  In other words it is not so much to punish Nazi exterminators as to deter people of the current times to think twice or even three times about what they are participating in....  The fact that participants in heinous acts have been hunted down and tried 65-70-75 years after the fact should put people on notice ... Humanity will not forget - you will tracked you down and you will be prosecuted - your entire life will be humiliated.  

 

I doubt that these trials serve as a deterrent or that they are intended as anything of the sort. If so, just by reading the headlines on this forum, doesn't seem to do a whole lot of good. Certainly didn't stop similar happenings elsewhere.

 

What these trials are for is remembrance. As the decades pass, these horrors become distant, and younger generations learn about them, if at all, third and fourth hand. With the known adage in mind regarding those who forget their history, this is perhaps not a part of human history anyone would like repeated.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Morch

[dick dasterdly]

15 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I doubt that these trials serve as a deterrent or that they are intended as anything of the sort. If so, just by reading the headlines on this forum, doesn't seem to do a whole lot of good. Certainly didn't stop similar happenings elsewhere.

 

What these trials are for is remembrance. As the decades pass, these horrors become distant, and younger generations learn about them, if at all, third and fourth hand. With the known adage in mind regarding those who forget their history, this is perhaps not a part of human history anyone would like repeated.

And so bringing a (presumably) ordinary German medic who served in a concentration camp to court - is good because its for 'remembrance'?

 

I wholeheartedly agree that the atrocities committed need to be remembered - but unfortunately it doesn't change human behaviour much.  Rwanda/Iraq/Yugoslavia etc. etc. prove that the majority of humans are easily influenced to behave appallingly.

 

Back on topic, I'm still wondering why a few think this soldier automatically needs to be punished - even though, in Morch's words we  have " no exact knowledge regarding Zafke's duties and situation".

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And yet again you're showing your bias....

 

I'd particularly refer you to your first paragraph.

 

At the moment none of us "have exact knowledge regarding Zafke's duties and situation".

 

Which is why some of us need to know more before convicting, whereas you are happy to immediately convict - despite having no " exact knowledge regarding Zafke's duties and situation" 

 

 

 

Nope. What I said earlier is that in my opinion, as in personal stand, everyone who served in these camps is guilty. Some more than others, some by association. I am aware that this is a moral judgement and not necessarily a legal construct.

 

The point of the post above was that some of you seem to have no need of verified facts, and are happy to make them up from scratch. My own position is that Zafke should go on trial exactly for these things to be clarified. Whether he will be convicted, or what punishment he will face are of lesser importance as far as I am concerned.

 

 

 

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

And so bringing a (presumably) ordinary German medic who served in a concentration camp to court - is good because its for 'remembrance'?

 

I wholeheartedly agree that the atrocities committed need to be remembered - but unfortunately it doesn't change human behaviour much.  Rwanda/Iraq/Yugoslavia etc. etc. prove that the majority of humans are easily influenced to behave appallingly.

 

Back on topic, I'm still wondering why a few think this soldier automatically needs to be punished - even though, in Morch's words we  have " no exact knowledge regarding Zafke's duties and situation".

 

Serving in the death camps was not "ordinary". If he was a German medic serving elsewhere, there would be no issue at all.

 

The testimonies, whether of the accused, survivors or others, serve remembrance. The sentencing is of a lesser importance when it comes to people such as Zafke.

 

Show me where I posted anything to the effect that he automatically needs to be punished?

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Morch

[dick dasterdly]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

Nope. What I said earlier is that in my opinion, as in personal stand, everyone who served in these camps is guilty. Some more than others, some by association. I am aware that this is a moral judgement and not necessarily a legal construct.

 

The point of the post above was that some of you seem to have no need of verified facts, and are happy to make them up from scratch. My own position is that Zafke should go on trial exactly for these things to be clarified. Whether he will be convicted, or what punishment he will face are of lesser importance as far as I am concerned.

 

 

 

You may have a point, and in the same vein I think those who approved the ideology  of bombing civilians should also have been accused of war crimes.

 

I'd also add those soldiers that happily shot civilians as there may have been some guerillas in the area  (courtesy of Wikileaks video) - should also have been prosecuted and given life sentences.

 

Meanwhile, we're wondering about a German soldier and waiting for evidence as whether or not he is guilty of war crimes.

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Serving in the death camps was not "ordinary". If he was a German medic serving elsewhere, there would be no issue at all.

 

The testimonies, whether of the accused, survivors or others, serve remembrance. The sentencing is of a lesser importance when it comes to people such as Zafke.

 

Show me where I posted anything to the effect that he automatically needs to be punished?

 

You're quite right of course, most soldiers served fighting the 'enemy' - but of course, they went where they were told  -   it wasn't a choice....

 

You're entire posting history on this thread shows that you consider him automatically guilty.

 

But I agree insofar as its appalling that the survivors testimonies have not been allowed.  They are the best source of evidence in this case in the absence of any other evidence (as far as I can make out).

[SheungWan]

8 hours ago, JDGRUEN said:

I think the real point to these trials is to show to the world that no matter how long after the deed, no matter how minor your personal act was in implementing such dastardly deeds, one will never escape scrutiny and eventually be caught and tried.  In other words it is not so much to punish Nazi exterminators as to deter people of the current times to think twice or even three times about what they are participating in....  The fact that participants in heinous acts have been hunted down and tried 65-70-75 years after the fact should put people on notice ... Humanity will not forget - you will tracked you down and you will be prosecuted - your entire life will be humiliated.  

 

Indeed. Certainly an inconvenient reminder to those playing with matches around current conspiracy theories.

[GOLDBUGGY]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

 

Once again you post as if you have exact knowledge regarding Zafke's duties and situation. Considering the trial is being delayed and that only charges were read, everything that you post on this is guesswork, not necessarily facts.

 

The repeated claims of "no choice" are bogus. There are always some people making these choices, regardless of the consequences.  While not the norm in human behavior, these cases show that people can aspire to higher morals. There were Germans who did not capitulate to the rise of Nazism, there were those that defied it in secret. Again, not the norm - but it cannot be said that there were no options. Another bogus claim is that disobedience would have led directly to death. As was asserted in a previous post - this might have been the case if direct disobedience was involved. There is nothing to suggest that this was the only form of resistance possible or that other ways of avoiding the situation were not available.

 

Those who served in the Nazi death camps are NOT on equal footing with Vietnam War veterans. There was no genocide in Vietnam, no organized mass murder of a people. If you insist on playing with moral equivalents, a Vietnam War veteran would be more similar to an ordinary German soldier. The prisoners an the Nazi death camps were not simply innocents hurt in war, they were specifically targeted, imprisoned and murdered. This wasn't a war, it was slaughter.

 

While you feel that the "whole thing" should be forgotten, the OP indicates that the survivors you seem to care about  are rather upset by not having their voice heard. Who are you to judge what is best for them?

Again, you like others here are confused about being a Nazis and being in the Death Squads. Let me try and clear this up for you.

 

The Nazis did not run the Concentration Camps. The SS ran the Death Camps. To be a Nazi meant that you belonged to a Political Party in which Hitler was the leader of since 1923. While being in the SS you were part of a Paramilitary Organization which originally was set up as a Protection Squadron for Hitler,  much like the Secret Service is today for the President. But under Hitler and Himmler it grew into a very powerful organization to included the Secret Police similar to the KGB in Russia and an Elite Military Unit, to name a few.

 

So sure, not every German was a Nazi and not every Nazi even fired a rifle in that war. But every SS Officer was expected to be a Nazi first. I am also sure that not every Nazi took the gospel truth of every word their leader told them either. I am equally sure many joined the Nazi Party just to improve there own livelihood then, and future job prospects. I suppose some Germans joined the SS for the same reasons. 

 

No! I can't speak and say for sure I know all of what Zafke's actions were while he was in Auschwitz during the summer of 1944. Neither can you! That is understandable for both of us. What bothers me is that no witness is called to this trial either, that could shed some light on this and inform us all. Maybe is seems not like a bid deal to go to court and plead your innocents. But if you were 95 year old and spending your last days and your saved money to fight something like this, it is a big deal for him. 

 

What I do know for sure comes from history. The SS took great care to make sure that these Death Camps remained a secret. The atrocities that were going on in these camps were not even known to the outside world, including the German Population, until there capture and the end of the war. Even then not fully understood until many years later. Even the Polish Villagers who lived near Auschwitz and helped build it, were all executed to keep its location a secret. 

 

So it stands to reason that if you were Zalke, and were sent from Germany to many miles away to Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland, and under Orders to preform some duty in this Death Camp, you would have no idea what Hell you were about to step into until you arrived and saw this with your own eyes. I suppose as shocked and surprised as the Jews were when they arrived their as well.

 

So I guess in my defense for him, if I had one, and if he can not be connect to any war crime their, is that there was no possible way he could have know what Auschwitz really was, and thus what was expected from him their. So under those conditions I can't see it is possible he could make any kind of choice at all. I would think that he was as horrified and shocked as you and I would be if we got sent their as young men. He probably suffered nightmares all his life from that place.           

[Morch]

7 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Again, you like others here are confused about being a Nazis and being in the Death Squads. Let me try and clear this up for you.

 

The Nazis did not run the Concentration Camps. The SS ran the Death Camps. To be a Nazi meant that you belonged to a Political Party in which Hitler was the leader of since 1923. While being in the SS you were part of a Paramilitary Organization which originally was set up as a Protection Squadron for Hitler,  much like the Secret Service is today for the President. But under Hitler and Himmler it grew into a very powerful organization to included the Secret Police similar to the KGB in Russia and an Elite Military Unit, to name a few.

 

So sure, not every German was a Nazi and not every Nazi even fired a rifle in that war. But every SS Officer was expected to be a Nazi first. I am also sure that not every Nazi took the gospel truth of every word their leader told them either. I am equally sure many joined the Nazi Party just to improve there own livelihood then, and future job prospects. I suppose some Germans joined the SS for the same reasons. 

 

No! I can't speak and say for sure I know all of what Zafke's actions were while he was in Auschwitz during the summer of 1944. Neither can you! That is understandable for both of us. What bothers me is that no witness is called to this trial either, that could shed some light on this and inform us all. Maybe is seems not like a bid deal to go to court and plead your innocents. But if you were 95 year old and spending your last days and your saved money to fight something like this, it is a big deal for him. 

 

What I do know for sure comes from history. The SS took great care to make sure that these Death Camps remained a secret. The atrocities that were going on in these camps were not even known to the outside world, including the German Population, until there capture and the end of the war. Even then not fully understood until many years later. Even the Polish Villagers who lived near Auschwitz and helped build it, were all executed to keep its location a secret. 

 

So it stands to reason that if you were Zalke, and were sent from Germany to many miles away to Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland, and under Orders to preform some duty in this Death Camp, you would have no idea what Hell you were about to step into until you arrived and saw this with your own eyes. I suppose as shocked and surprised as the Jews were when they arrived their as well.

 

So I guess in my defense for him, if I had one, and if he can not be connect to any war crime their, is that there was no possible way he could have know what Auschwitz really was, and thus what was expected from him their. So under those conditions I can't see it is possible he could make any kind of choice at all. I would think that he was as horrified and shocked as you and I would be if we got sent their as young men. He probably suffered nightmares all his life from that place.           

 

"I can't speak and say for sure I know all of what Zafke's actions were while he was in Auschwitz during the summer of 1944"

 

And yet,  your posts are peppered with assertions regarding his duties, the manner he carried them out, his mental state and motivations. As for "Neither can you! " - indeed, but then I did not make any concrete claims regarding these issues beyond those appearing in the OP.

 

And right after the above, you go on with made up guesswork as to what he knew, what he felt and what options he had.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I

[seedy]

Troll post removed

[GOLDBUGGY]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

"I can't speak and say for sure I know all of what Zafke's actions were while he was in Auschwitz during the summer of 1944"

 

And yet,  your posts are peppered with assertions regarding his duties, the manner he carried them out, his mental state and motivations. As for "Neither can you! " - indeed, but then I did not make any concrete claims regarding these issues beyond those appearing in the OP.

 

And right after the above, you go on with made up guesswork as to what he knew, what he felt and what options he had.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I

I know you would like us all to believe that you did not make any concreted claims regarding these issues beyond those appearing in the OP,  but in fact you did this many times.

 

On Page 5 Post 101 you said: "That's a whole lot of words in defense of a man who participated in mass murder and genocide."  At least I say he is innocent until proven guilty. You obvious formed your OPINION already.  

 

Nowhere does it say he did any of this. In fact from the OP he wasn't even charged for this crime you claim he did. The OP says his biggest crime was for accessory to murder for allegedly helping the Auschwitz death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland function.

Which could be anything including giving the Camp Commander an antibiotic injection for the Flu. 

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

I know you would like us all to believe that you did not make any concreted claims regarding these issues beyond those appearing in the OP,  but in fact you did this many times.

 

On Page 5 Post 101 you said: "That's a whole lot of words in defense of a man who participated in mass murder and genocide."  At least I say he is innocent until proven guilty. You obvious formed your OPINION already.  

 

Nowhere does it say he did any of this. In fact from the OP he wasn't even charged for this crime you claim he did. The OP says his biggest crime was for accessory to murder for allegedly helping the Auschwitz death camp in Nazi-occupied Poland function.

Which could be anything including giving the Camp Commander an antibiotic injection for the Flu. 

 

And I get accused of nitpicking....

 

If it makes you feel better, exchange "participated" with "suspected of assisted". I have already stated in other posts that in my personal opinion, anyone who served on these camps is guilty. That said, my personal point of view is a moral judgement, and not a legal reality. There were no detailed descriptions regarding Zafke's actions and motivations in my posts. There are no claims to know facts which are not presented.

Edited September 17, 2016 by Morch

[GOLDBUGGY]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

And I get accused of nitpicking....

 

If it makes you feel better, exchange "participated" with "suspected of assisted". I have already stated in other posts that in my personal opinion, anyone who served on these camps is guilty. That said, my personal point of view is a moral judgement, and not a legal reality. There were no detailed descriptions regarding Zafke's actions and motivations in my posts. There are no claims to know facts which are not presented.

Nobody is accusing you of nitpicking! Caught in a lie is maybe closer and more accurate?

 

But what the Hell! Let's let bygones be bygones!

[Morch]

Just now, GOLDBUGGY said:

Nobody is accusing you of nitpicking! Caught in a lie is maybe closer and more accurate?

 

But what the Hell! Let's let bygones be bygones!

 

Once more, mudslinging and personal attack when nothing reasonable to offer.

[Harveyg]

On September 13, 2016 at 8:51 AM, geriatrickid said:

 

The Chinese have not moved on, because the Chinese people are unaware of what Mao and his Red Guards did. Do you think they teach that type of history in China? Seriously? One of the reasons why the Chinese   have no problem of laying waste to forests, of mass executions of harvesting the organs of the  "condemned" etc., is because the country never addressed its sins.  Do you know why Germany is super power now? It is because it took a long hard look at itself and made an effort to improve. Germany has moved on because it confronted its past. It hasn't repeated its sins  has it? China has.

 

BTW, Hitler killed far more than 6 million. Allied POWs  ended up in concentration camps too. Whole villages of occupied countries were wiped out. You could use  a history lesson, or perhaps you believe the destruction of countries like Poland was an exercise in  urban planning?

 

I really like your post for putting China in perspective

[tropo]

On 9/13/2016 at 8:21 AM, car720 said:

Hitler killed 6  million whilst Mao killed 45 million yet we seldom hear a word about this.  The Chinese people have moved on.

Just saying...................perhaps it is time the rest of the world also moved on.

 

Also I cannot help wonder what profession the prosecutors will pursue when all the nazis are gone.

Is there a civil element to this case - monetary compensation for families? That would be reason enough to continue the case.